Conversation of Archbishop Lefebre and Bishop Marchioni in 1976: Separation of Church and State and the Social Kingship of Christ

At the risk of repeating myself, I come back to the social kingship of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that dogma of the Catholic faith, which no one can put in doubt without being a heretic: yes, exactly: a heretic!

Do They Still Have the Faith?

Make a judgment then on the dying faith of the Apostolic Nuncio in Bern, Bishop Marchioni, with whom I had the following conversation on March 31, 1976, in Bern:

Lefebre: Some dangerous things can easily be seen… In the declaration on religius liberty, there are some things contrary to what the Popes have taught: it is decided that there can no longer be Catholic States!

Nuncio: But of course, that is evident!

Lefebre: Do you thnk that that is going to do the church any good, this suppression of the Catholic States?

Nuncio: Ah, but you understand, if we do that, we will get a greater religious freedom with the Soviets!

Lefebre: But the social Reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ, what are you doing about that?

Nuncio: You know, that is impossible now; perhaps in the distant future? .. Right now, this Reign is in perhaps in individuals’ we hwave to open ourselves up to the masses.

Lefebre: But the encyclical Quas Primas, what do you do with that?

Nuncio: Oh… the Pope would not write that any more, now!

Lefebre: Did you know that in colombia it was the Holy See that asked for the suppression of the Christian constitution of the State?

Nuncio: Yes, and here also.

Lefebre: In the Valais?

Nuncio: Yes, in the Valais.  Anow, you see, I am invited to all the meetings!

Lefebre: Then you approve the letter that Bishop Adam [Bishop of Sion, in the Valais] wrote to the faithful of his diocese to explain to them why they should vote for the law of separataion of Church and State?

Nuncio: You see, the social kingship of Our Lord, it is very difficult now…

You see, he no longer belie3ves in it: it is an “impossible” or “very difficult” dogma, “which would not be written now any more”!  And how many people think like this today!  How many are incapable of understanding that the Redemption of Our Lord Jesus Christ must be brought about with the help of civil society, and that the State therefore must become, within the limits of the temporal order, the instrument of the application of the work of the Redemption.  they answer you, “Oh, those are two different things; you are mixing politics and religion!”

And yet, all has been created for Our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore for the accomplishment of the work of the Redemption: everything, including civil society, which, I have told you, is itself a creature of the good Lord!  civil society is not a pure creation of the will of men; it results abvove all from the social nature of man, from the fact that god has created men so that they will live in society; it is written into nature by the creator.  Therefore civil society itself, no loess than individuals, must render homage to god, its author and its end, and sever the redeeming design of Jesus Christ.

Source: Archbishop Marcel Lefebre, They Have Uncrowned Him: From Liberalism to Apostasy, the Conciliar Tragedy (Angelus, Kansas, 1988), pp. 99-101.

About Quirino M. Sugon Jr
Theoretical Physicist in Manila Observatory

2 Responses to Conversation of Archbishop Lefebre and Bishop Marchioni in 1976: Separation of Church and State and the Social Kingship of Christ

  1. Merry Christmas, Quirino! I meant to comment on this post before, but Christmas got me! It is refreshing to read someone who’s irate about the sell-out. But what should we do? Of course get the Church teaching clarified, but after that? I live in the most secular country possible, the United States of America. I have never met a US Catholic (outside an SSPX chapel) that does not believe that the secular state is the only possible political organization in the modern world. Many supported Bush in the Iraq war, and other ‘initiatives’ in the middle east, on the basis that the war was bringing a needed secularism there. But things have developed so quickly in the US since Obama was elected that one can find numerous calls on the internet for states (cities, whatever) to secede from the US, although I have not seen any that called for a Catholic religious state. What is the situation in the Philippines?

    I hope your Christmas was wonderful, that your New Year is peaceful and full of hope, and that you get to attend many traditional masses in the year to come! Take care of yourself!

  2. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Hi White Lily,

    The Church Militant in the Philippines is still fighting the increasing secularization of the our country. The LGBT group Ladlad who wants to make it to the Party List was dismissed by the Commission on Elections for moral reasons. The remaining battle is the Reproductive Health Bill which has the possibility of getting passed in the Congress once Noynoy Aquino gets elected as Philippine President in 2010.

    I started reading the “Iota Unum” by Romano Amerio this Christmas. Thanks for the book. I am already halfway. He writes and thinks clearly, and quotes St. Thomas Aquinas in many of his definitions. “Iota Unum” is indeed a good reading for those who want to understand Vatican II: the pre-Council, the Council, and the post-Council.

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

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