# Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) logo: Christian or Masonic symbol?

I found an interesting article from Pinoy Catholic on the meaning of the Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) logo:

1. The interlaced square and compass denotes Freemasonry
2. The crown at the center denotes the Order of Amaranth, a fraternal organization of master masons and their properly qualified female relatives
3. The compass, inverted triangle, and legs denotes the Order of the Eastern Star
4. The light rays at the background denotes the sun god.
5. The scales of justice denotes the Scales of Maat, the Egyptian goddess of truth, order, balance, and justice
6. The bible inside the inverted triangle and compass refers to the use of the bible in masonic lodge for swearing oaths
7. The dove and the color white denotes purity and innocence
8. The color red denotes courage, zeal, and blood of life–the color of Royal Arch Masonry
9. The color green denotes spiritual initiation into the high mysteries of life and god
10. The color blue recalls the dome of the heavens which denotes universal brotherhood and friendship
11. The inverted triangle points to the 22nd ray which probably signifies a 22nd degree mason–Knight of the Royal Axe.

To be fair to INC, I’ll try to provide a biblical meaning to  the INC logo, with their doctrines in mind:

1. The dove is the dove of Noah.  Just as the evil world was washed away by the flood and a new world was born, so was the apostate Catholic Church was abandoned by God and He established a new church, Iglesia ni Cristo, at the end of time.
2. The sun’s rays and the bible denotes the Prologue of John: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” (Jn 1:1-5)  Surprisingly, this passage proves the divinity of Christ, which INC does not believe.
3. The lamb and dove denotes the Baptism of Christ: “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. He is the one of whom I said, ‘A man is coming after me who ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’ I did not know him, but the reason why I came baptizing with water was that he might be made known to Israel.” John testified further, saying, “I saw the Spirit come down like a dove from the sky and remain upon him. I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.'”  Surprisingly, the INC also does not believe on the divinity of the Holy Spirit.
4. The Triangle denotes the Dogma of the Holy Trinity, which states that there are three Persons in one God.  Christ himself gave the following Trinitarian formula for Bapstism: “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” (Mt 28:19-20). Surprisingly, INC does not believe on the Trinity.

Thus, INC uses Christian symbols, but does not believe on the meaning of the symbols.  (The INC has not still provided an official interpretation of their logo).

Now, where is the Sign of the Cross?  I cannot find any.

1. “Then he called to the man dressed in linen with the writer’s case at his waist, saying to him: Pass through the city (through Jerusalem) and mark an X on the foreheads of those who moan and groan over all the abominations that are practiced within it. To the others I heard him say: Pass through the city after him and strike! Do not look on them with pity nor show any mercy! Old men, youths and maidens, women and children–wipe them out! But do not touch any marked with the X; begin at my sanctuary. So they began with the men (the elders) who were in front of the temple.” The Hebrew letter X is Tav (or Taw) whose ancient form is the cross †, from which came the Greek letter Tau $\tau$.
2. “If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily 11 and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.” (Lk 9:23-24)
3. “If anyone says to you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told it to you beforehand. So if they say to you, ‘He is in the desert,’ do not go out there; if they say, ‘He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as lightning comes from the east and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels 18 with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” (Mt 24:23-31)  The sign of the Son of Man is the cross because his corpse hung there.
4. “For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the learning of the learned I will set aside.” Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1 Cor 1:17-24)

So why is there no Sign of the Cross in the INC logo?  Is INC inviting the wrath of God to destroy its members starting from its temples?  Does INC wish to follow Christ but without a cross in its temples to carry?  Does INC await the coming of Christ but thinks that the Sign of the Son of Man is not the cross but a compass?  Does INC wish to proclaim the cross of Christ like St. Paul or rather the message of Felix Y. Manalo, whom they consider as an angel?  As St. Paul said: “But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!” (Gal 1:7-9). Lucifer is also an angel of light because in Latin, the word “Lucifer” means “Light-Bringer” (from lux, lucis, “light”, and ferre, “to bear, bring”). Lucifer is he whom the Freemasons worship.  As Christ said: “And if the light in you is darkness, how great will the darkness be.” (Mt 6:23)

About Quirino M. Sugon Jr
Theoretical Physicist in Manila Observatory

### 2,000 Responses to Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) logo: Christian or Masonic symbol?

1. Tin Machine says:

Wow, way to take several organizations and place them all in blender and try to interpret what spills out. The Catholic church is just pissed off because that cannot control Freemasonry. Free thinkers are dangerous to Catholicism. If the Pope would allow more free thinking by its membership they probably would not be hemorrhaging members all over the world. If you are to examine Freemasonry please at least do it honestly.

2. SteveB says:

Freemasons don’t worship Lucifer.
Freemasonry doesn’t dictate anyone’s diety.
Freemasonry requires a belief in the Supreme Being.
Freemasonry recommends that members attend the Church of their choice.

3. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.

This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance in due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.

Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 1981 pp. 240-241; English language edition of L’Osservatore Romano, 9 March 1981).

In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.

Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect

+ Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P.
Titular Archbishop of Lorium
Secretary

4. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Dear Tin Machine, there are indeed several masonic organizations, but as Pope Leo XIII pointed out in his Encyclical “Humanum Genus” in 1884, they all have basic similarities that they can be grouped under the heading of Freemasonry:

9. There are several organized bodies which, though differing in name, in ceremonial, in form and origin, are nevertheless so bound together by community of purpose and by the similarity of their main opinions, as to make in fact one thing with the sect of the Freemasons, which is a kind of center whence they all go forth, and whither they all return. Now, these no longer show a desire to remain concealed; for they hold their meetings in the daylight and before the public eye, and publish their own newspaper organs; and yet, when thoroughly understood, they are found still to retain the nature and the habits of secret societies. There are many things like mysteries which it is the fixed rule to hide with extreme care, not only from strangers, but from very many members, also; such as their secret and final designs, the names of the chief leaders, and certain secret and inner meetings, as well as their decisions, and the ways and means of carrying them out. This is, no doubt, the object of the manifold difference among the members as to right, office, and privilege, of the received distinction of orders and grades, and of that severe discipline which is maintained.

Candidates are generally commanded to promise – nay, with a special oath, to swear – that they will never, to any person, at any time or in any way, make known the members, the passes, or the subjects discussed. Thus, with a fraudulent external appearance, and with a style of simulation which is always the same, the Freemasons, like the Manichees of old, strive, as far as possible, to conceal themselves, and to admit no witnesses but their own members. As a convenient manner of concealment, they assume the character of literary men and scholars associated for purposes of learning. They speak of their zeal for a more cultured refinement, and of their love for the poor; and they declare their one wish to be the amelioration of the condition of the masses, and to share with the largest possible number all the benefits of civil life. Were these purposes aimed at in real truth, they are by no means the whole of their object. Moreover, to be enrolled, it is necessary that the candidates promise and undertake to be thenceforward strictly obedient to their leaders and masters with the utmost submission and fidelity, and to be in readiness to do their bidding upon the slightest expression of their will; or, if disobedient, to submit to the direst penalties and death itself. As a fact, if any are judged to have betrayed the doings of the sect or to have resisted commands given, punishment is inflicted on them not infrequently, and with so much audacity and dexterity that the assassin very often escapes the detection and penalty of his crime.

10. But to simulate and wish to lie hid; to bind men like slaves in the very tightest bonds, and without giving any sufficient reason; to make use of men enslaved to the will of another for any arbitrary act ; to arm men’s right hands for bloodshed after securing impunity for the crime – all this is an enormity from which nature recoils. Wherefore, reason and truth itself make it plain that the society of which we are speaking is in antagonism with justice and natural uprightness. And this becomes still plainer, inasmuch as other arguments, also, and those very manifest, prove that it is essentially opposed to natural virtue. For, no matter how great may be men’s cleverness in concealing and their experience in lying, it is impossible to prevent the effects of any cause from showing, in some way, the intrinsic nature of the cause whence they come. “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree produce good fruit.”(12) Now, the masonic sect produces fruits that are pernicious and of the bitterest savour. For, from what We have above most clearly shown, that which is their ultimate purpose forces itself into view – namely, the utter overthrow of that whole religious and political order of the world which the Christian teaching has produced, and the substitution of a new state of things in accordance with their ideas, of which the foundations and laws shall be drawn from mere naturalism.

5. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Dear SteveB, our knowledge of who God is will define the society in which we live. Islam has a different notion of God, that is why their society is governed by Shariah law, which stipulates death to the infidels who does not wish to submit under the yoke of Islam. Christianity has a different notion of God expressed in the Dogma of the Trinity. This God revealed himself to Israel and gave them the Ten Commandments, which is summarized by the God-Man Jesus Christ into one law of love: “The first is this: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these” (Mk 12:29-31). From these laws sprung the laws that created Western Civilization, under the guidance of the Catholic Church.

Democracy is a Christian idea which is rooted in the equality of all men under God, because they are all descendants of Adam and Eve. Dignity of man is a Christian idea because the Son of God became the Son of Man, that is why slavery was slowly eradicated in the Christian West but remained elsewhere. Masonry, by making all religions equal, have no sense of what is a truly just society and of what makes man truly happy, even in the face of suffering and death. So the society formed under Masonry will endlessly define for itself what is morally good and morally evil. But this is essentially what Satan or Lucifer, the Father of Lies, under the appearance of a Serpent , tempted Adam and Eve: “You certainly will not die! No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad” (Gen 3:4-5).

6. SteveB says:

Have you read Humanum Genus? Have you noted the items the Pope objects to? In every case they are items that address the church’s domination of society, not theology. But wait, at that point the church didn’t have theology, it had doctrine.

The same things you say apply to the Boy Scouts and the Lion’s club. As well as the U.S. Government. None of them require a declaration of faith in a specific diety. I guess we could get into the problem of Americanism from the church’s point of view, but that’s a different discussion entirelly. I hope.

7. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

SteveB, regarding the accusation that the Catholic Church only wishes to dominate society, Pope Leo XIII gave the following answer in Humanum Genus:

“29. The Church, if she directs men to render obedience chiefly and above all to God the sovereign Lord, is wrongly and falsely believed either to be envious of the civil power or to arrogate to herself something of the rights of sovereigns. On the contrary, she teaches that what is rightly due to the civil power must be rendered to it with a conviction and consciousness of duty. In teaching that from God Himself comes the right of ruling, she adds a great dignity to civil authority, and on small help towards obtaining the obedience and good will of the citizens. The friend of peace and sustainer of concord, she embraces all with maternal love, and, intent only upon giving help to mortal man, she teaches that to justice must be joined clemency, equity to authority, and moderation to lawgiving; that no one’s right must be violated; that order and public tranquility are to be maintained; and that the poverty of those are in need is, as far as possible, to be relieved by public and private charity. “But for this reason,” to use the words of St. Augustine, “men think, or would have it believed, that Christian teaching is not suited to the good of the State; for they wish the State to be founded not on solid virtue, but on the impunity of vice.”(15) Knowing these things, both princes and people would act with political wisdom,(16) and according to the needs of general safety, if, instead of joining with Freemasons to destroy the Church, they joined with the Church in repelling their attacks.”

8. CORY AQUINO says:

STUPID quirino

9. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

To she who hides under the name of Cory Aquino, I would really be grateful to know why I am stupid.

10. tommy says:

hi mr.sagon , ur not stupid because u just copied evrything ryt ? haha

11. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Tommy, It takes humility to accept that many of our ideas are not new and that somebody has thought about them before. That is why when scholars write journal articles or book chapters, they always quote their references. Papers without references are instantly rejected by editors. To get published, a scholar must know what others have done before him and point out what his new ideas that will advance the field. As Newton said, “If I can see farther than most, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants.”

12. Congratulations Quirino! Calls the attention of the uninformed. More to evangelize!

The one who is stupid is the one that cannot provide an anti-thesis to the thesis presented and just types the word stupid in response to the ideas presented.

In the case of the Iglesia ni Cristo, it is Manalo they honor and not God the Father and not Christ. They celebrate the birth and commemorate the death of the convicted rapist cum”angel” Felix M. Ysagun aka Felix Y. Manalo. They hate Christmas but are thick-faced to ask their bosses and Catholic friends for a Christmas bonus and gift!

13. moisesysrael says:

to pinoycatholic,
Nag-disguise ka pa ha bakit kinahihiya mo ba na alagad ka ni Bro, Eliseo Soriano, halatang-halata yung mga kasunungalingan ng grupo ninyo sa paninira sa INC. Kung sabagay kung sinungaling ang lider, sinungaling ang miyembro. Now kung gusto mong makawala sa kasinungalingang ito at malaman mo ang totoong doktrina sa INC pwede ka naman magtanong sa mga Ministro. Ito ang tama bakit ka kukuha ng inpormasyon sa kalaban ng grupong ito siyempre self-serving ang paliwanag nila. So, my advice patunayan mong magaling ka inaanyayahan ka namin na pumunta kahit saan kapilya at magsuri ka.
Mr. Quirino, sana mas maganda mag-set na lang ng debate between INC and Catholic defenders na tulad mo. Kasi hindi naman lumalaban ang mga Pare, dahil may sumubok ng minsan at dalawa na sa mga ito ay miyembro na ng INC mula ng matalo sa debate.

14. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Moises Ysrael, I don’t debate in public. I prefer to dialogue through my blog. In this way, the questions can be clearly read by anyone, I can take time to research the answer, and the whole world can follow the arguments.

15. Kirino says:

mr. quirino.
if you had a questions and an entire doubt about our doctrine. pls do visit the minister of the INC . and then , go ask them about our doctrine, and same as your’s for your belief. and enlighten each other. cuz member of INC don’t particularly debate on NET,BLOG,FORUMS and other site. did you understand me?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

16. catholichell says:

@pinoy catholic.
kawawa ka naman pre.
ganyan talaga ang mga katoliko. nagbubulagbulagan
sa katotohanan. kung saan ang mali doon sila.
wahahahaha

17. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Kirino,

What I can never understand is why the INC does not still have its own website containing its official doctrines, so that I don’t have to ask an INC minister what the INC doctrines are. If doctrines are not officially written down, they can be changed. Why should one entrust the salvation of his soul on the shifting sands of human doctrines? A wise man builds his house not on a sand but on a rock. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, puts its doctrines in written form and the summary of it is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. As Christ said, “No one who lights a lamp hides it away or places it (under a bushel basket), but on a lampstand so that those who enter might see the light” (Lk 11: 33). The dogmas of the Church, e.g. Original Sin, Trinity, Transubstantiation, etc., are true and will always remain true both now and forever. You can bet your life and soul on this.

Quirino

18. hanier says:

.helow!!! i just wanted to clear this.

The sun’s rays and the bible denotes the Prologue of John: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” (Jn 1:1-5) Surprisingly, this passage proves the divinity of Christ, which INC does not believe.

.it is very clear that the passage is talking about the divinity of God and not Christ. i just wanted to share this….. before you start criticizing other religions, be sure that you understand what the bible is saying.

.at mali ung mga info n binigay mo.

19. laycarmelite says:

And the INC understood what the Bible is saying??????

20. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Hanier,

“The Word was God” (Jn 1:1). In Math, we write Word = God. “The Word became flesh” (Jn 1:14). In Math we write, Word –> flesh. Since Word = God, therefore God –> flesh. Jesus, the Word of God, is God who became flesh and dwelt among us “and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth” (Jn 1:14).

21. Pity the INC of M. They resort to stealing names and calling you by another name… What a pity, really.

22. hanier says:

.pero nung buntis si Mary, ang sabi nagdadalang tao at hindi nagdadalang Diyos. pano un?!.

23. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Hanier,

Jesus is both God and Man. He is both the Son of God in his divinity and the Son of Man in his humanity. You accept that Jesus is human. But He is also God. As the Angel Gabriel said to Mary:

“The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.” (Lk 1:35)

24. mark says:

Quirino M. Sugon….
huwag mong ipililit ang sa iyo alam mo naman na Mali ka.

25. francis says:

The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b]

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Sino kaya yung Word na naging tao?

John 20:28
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

sa ‘nagdadalang tao”, anong verse yun?

26. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Mark,

I do not force you to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but I am betting my very soul on the truth of this claim. Apostle John said:

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.” (1 Jn 4:1-3)

How do we a acknowledge Christ ? Apostle John said:

“Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God” (1 Jn 4:15).

27. br.friar says:

we should look the context of the what cardinal ratzingers stand about masonry…It is already posed that those people who joined the said organization were considered out of receiving the holy communion.

28. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

br.friar,

In the 1983 “Declaration on Masonic Associations“, Cardinal Ratzinger as head of the Congregation for Doctrine and Faith wrote:

“Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.”

29. BETTERTOBECALLEDANONIMOUS says:

I think we should not debate just because of our own beliefs. We are all believers and we are believing in one God. So. why not respect others way of expressing their way of praising God.

30. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Better to be Called Anonymous,

I hope you can also say that to INC members and other Protestants.

We should respect other people as persons made in the image of God, but this does not mean that we allow their false teachings to propagate. Charity demands that we correct errors and proclaim the truth. The salvation of souls is at stake. If a sheep falls in a ditch, we must lift it out. If a man falls into error, we must help him recognize his folly.. For a man is more valuable than a sheep. (c.f. Mt 12:11).

31. Steve B says:

First, Merry Christmas to All who read this.

Then, Where does humility enter into this discussion? Isn’t it the height of hubris to assume that our reading of scripture is the only possible interpretation? That even how we read explanations given by the church’s hierarchy is dead on? That disagreement is by nature wrong?

I am continually surprised about the way that two people can read exactly the same words, and get diametrically opposed meanings.

Faith isn’t the same thing as belief. Faith actually carries with it the possibility that there is a mistake n our interpretation. Belief excludes the possibility of other realities. Remember that it was believed by many that the Earth was the center of the Solar system. People died for disagreeing with this idea. Faith is like a voice calling to us in the dark, and assuring us that if we jump over an unseen chasm, there will be a hand to catch us. We jump, in spite of the possibility that we won’t reach that hand or that it might not be there.

I am saying that belief cuts off possibility. Our heavenly father wants us to have faith in Him, and gave us freewill and intelligence to embrace faith in the light of study. The glory of God is intelligence.

32. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Steve B,

Merry Christmas, too.

Humility comes in knowing that we are not the authority in the interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures but the Church, “the the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15). The Bible alone is not enough, because as you said, “two people can read exactly the same words, and get diametrically opposed meanings.” God established the Church as the authoritative interpreter of the Sacred Scriptures in the same way as the Supreme Court is the authoritative interpreter of the Constitution.

To believe is an act of faith. Or as the Catechism puts it: “In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: ‘Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace'” (Art. 155).

We have to make a distinction between human faith and divine faith. What you mentioned is human faith which carries with it the possibility of error. For example, “I believe it will rain tomorrow”. But divine faith is certain. “It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, but ‘the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives.’ ‘Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt.'” (Art 157)

St. Paul said: “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen” (Heb 11:1). When God told Abraham that he will be the Father of many nations, Abraham believed that God will keep his promise, even if he is already advanced in years and even if God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac. “He did not doubt God’s promise in unbelief; rather, he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God and was fully convinced that what he had promised he was also able to do. That is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”” (Rom 4:20-22)

33. hanier says:

.hmmm wanted to greet you all a Merry Merry Christmas.

.ok, we have our own way to understand the bible. am i right?!.

you wrote:
“The Word was God” (Jn 1:1). In Math, we write Word = God. “The Word became flesh” (Jn 1:14). In Math we write, Word –> flesh. Since Word = God, therefore God –> flesh. Jesus, the Word of God, is God who became flesh and dwelt among us “and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth” (Jn 1:14).

.”The Father loves me because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down freely. It is mine to lay down and to take it up again: this mission i received from my Father.” (Jn 10:17-18)

.ngayon po, i just wanted to ask. who is the Father mentioned by Jesus if you said that Jesus, the Word of God, is God who became flesh?.

34. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Hanier,

The Holy Trinity is a mystery. There is only one God. But there are three Divine Persons in One God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, but there are no three Gods but only one God. The Father is not the same as the Son and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son. They are three distinct Persons, but there is only one God.

The Mystery of the Holy Trinity is really mind boggling. Only God can truly understand it. But here is something also just as mind-boggling, but within our level of understanding: the Sacrament of Marriage. In marriage the husband and wife becomes one flesh. The husband is distinct from the wife, but they are one flesh. As Jesus said:

“Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” (Gen 19:4-6)

If the Dogma of the Holy Trinity states that “there are three Persons in one God”, then marriage can also be similarly expressed as “there are two persons in one flesh.”

35. hanier says:

.sa mga interviews namin sa ibat-ibang religions, may nagsabi samen na si Jesus daw ay isang vegetarian. then tinanong namin siya na kung talagang vegetarian si Jesus, how come na pinakain nya ung mga tao ng isda?!.

.then ung answer lang nung person, un daw ang hindi nya alam kasi may old and new testament. kaya di nya alam ang totoo pero he said na Jesus is a vegetarian.

.ano po sa tingin ninyo?!.

.parang sinasabi nya kasi na isa sa mga bible eh hindi totoo.

36. hanier says:

.meron pa po pala.

.God who created all things has no beginning; He is from everlasting to everlasting. “Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.” (Ps. 90:2)

.Jesus Christ came from God. “Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me’.” (Jn. 8:42)

37. artsee says:

Freemasonry puts emphasis on brotherhood like INC. Freemasonry believes in unity and obedience with their worshipful master and submission to the Grand Lodge just like INC to her local leadership and central administration. Freemasonry believes in one Supreme Being like INC which only believes in One God. Freemasonry is a fraternal organization that does not accept women as members. While INC has female members and deaconesses, INC treats women as if second class citizens. Freemasonry is a secret society and everything that’s done inside, rituals and meetings, are secrets. INC is also exclusive to her own members and does have many secrets too. The above are just some of the many similarities between Masons and INC.

38. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Hanier,

When Jesus appeared to his apostles after His resurrection, he asked them, “Do you have something to eat?” They gave him a piece of baked fish; he took it and ate it in front of them. (Lk 24:41-43). Before His public ministry, I think Jesus also ate meat, because Jesus is a Jew and Jews celebrate the Passover by eating a roasted lamb (Ex 12).

But the important thing to keep in mind is that what we eat is not important but what comes out of our mouths from our hearts. As Christ said,

“Are even you still without understanding? Do you not realize that everything that enters the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled into the latrine? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, unchastity, theft, false witness, blasphemy. These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile.”(Mt 15:16-20)

39. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Hanier,

Jesus, the Word of God, was also in the beginning with God (Jn 1:1-2). As Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am (Jn 8:58). God the Father indeed made all things, but He did it through His Word: “All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be.” (Jn 1:3).

The reign of Jesus as King is also everlasting. As the Angel Gabriel said to Mary:

“Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:30-34).

Jesus being sent by God the Father does not necessarily mean that he was not in the beginning with the Father nor Jesus’s reign is not everlasting. Christ said: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end” (Rev 22:13).

40. artsee says:

Those who argue that Jesus is God often cites John 1:1. The word in that verse is a concept or plan by God. The word is not Jesus.

41. True says:

IS CHRIST GOD? TOPIC 1 (Jn1:1-3)(Jn8:58)(Lk1:30:34)(Rev22:13)
Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on December 29, 2009 at 4:24 pm

Jesus, the Word of God, was also in the beginning with God (Jn 1:1-2). As Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am (Jn 8:58). God the Father indeed made all things, but He did it through His Word: “All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be.” (Jn 1:3).

ANSWER: It was very cleared that GOD sent Jesus Christ as his word in the beginning. This is the
GOD Prophecy through his word became reality when Jesus Christ was born.

Whereas one of the evidence, This man (Christ), delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge
of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him (Acts 2:23).

Whereas 2nd evidence, In these last days, (God/he) spoke to us through (Christ/a son), whom
(God/he) made (Christ/heir) of all things and through whom (God/he) created the universe
(Hebrews 1:2).

As the true Prophet said, GOD is not man that he should speak falsely, nor human, that he
should change his mind (Numbers 23:19) (Ibid).

AND JESUS CHRIST is not God as Christ teached clearly and said, ‘I am going to my
Father and your Father, to my God and your God. (John 20:17) (Ibid).

This is one of the truth, that Jesus Christ Father is his God.

===============================================================================
The reign of Jesus as King is also everlasting. As the Angel Gabriel said to Mary:

“Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:30-34).

ANSWER: Jesus Christ teached clearly and said, This is the work of God, that you believe in the one
he sent (John 6:29) (Ibid).

AND Christ revelead that, But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth
that I heard from God (John 8:40) (Ibid).

This is one of the truth that Christ is not God.
===============================================================================
Jesus being sent by God the Father does not necessarily mean that he was not in the beginning with the Father nor Jesus’s reign is not everlasting. Christ said: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end” (Rev 22:13).

ANSWER: The statement in Revelation 22:13 is correct but your Opinion Mr. Quirino M. Sugon Jr. was
ABSOLUTELY AND PERFECTLY WRONG.

Whereas one of the evidence GOD teached clearly and said, For I am God and not man
(Hosea 11:9) (Ibid).

Whereas 2nd evidence TRUE PROPHETS teached clearly and said about the true
God, and you alone are God (Psalms 86:10) (Ibid).

Whereas 3rd evidence JESUS CHRIST is not God as Christ teached clearly and
said, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. (John 20:17)(Ibid).

Whereas 4rth evidence TRUE APOSTLE OF CHRIST teached clearly and said, For there is
ONE GOD. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, CHRIST JESUS
HIMSELF HUMAN (1 Timothy 2:5).
=============================================================================
What are the difference if Christ is Human to us Human?

Whereas one of the evidence, for certain that GOD has MADE him (CHRIST) both LORD
and MESSIAH this Jesus whom you crucified (Acts 2:39) (Ibid).

Whereas 2nd evidence, GOD EXALTED him (CHRIST) at his right hand AS LEADER and
SAVIOR to grant Israel repentance and forgiveness of sins (Acts 5:31).

Whereas 3rd evidence, GOD GREATLY EXALTED him (CHRIST) and BESTOWED on him
the name that is above every name (Philippians 2:9) (Ibid).

Whereas 4rth evidence, (CHRIST) He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in
his mouth (1 Peter 2:22).

ALL BOOKS IN THE BIBLE CAN JUSTIFY CLEALY THAT;

1. GOD IS ONE.
2. JESUS CHRIST IS NOT GOD. OUR GOD made JESUS as follows:
CHRIST, LORD, MESSIAH, LEADER and SAVIOR

For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God (John 3:34)(Ibid).

42. True says:

THE DOGMA OF THE HOLY TRINITY
Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on December 19, 2009 at 5:24 pm

The Holy Trinity is a mystery. There is only one God. But there are three Divine Persons in One God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, but there are no three Gods but only one God. The Father is not the same as the Son and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son. They are three distinct Persons, but there is only one God.

ANSWER: The Holy Trinity is a Mystery and the evidence to justify the statement, Now the Spirit
explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences (1 Timothy 4:1-2).

It was absolute that Holy Trinity is not found in the Bible. RIGHT?

For what can be known about God is evident to them (Romans 1:19)(Ibid). To those who are true servant of God as what they knows in the Holy Bible and they teached and follow such as:

GOD IS GOD AND THERE IS NONE THREE DIVINE PERSONS IN ONE GOD
1. God teach clearly and said that Christ is not God, For I am God and not man (Hosea 11:9)
2. Jesus Christ teached clearly and said that he is not God, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. (John 20:17)(Ibid). But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God (John 8:40) (Ibid).
3. The Holy Spirit is not God as Jesus Christ teached clearly and said, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name (John 14:26)(Ibid). No slave is greater than his master nor any messenger greater than the one who sent him (John 13:16)(Ibid).

==============================================================================
The Mystery of the Holy Trinity is really mind boggling. Only God can truly understand it. But here is something also just as mind-boggling, but within our level of understanding: the Sacrament of Marriage. In marriage the husband and wife becomes one flesh. The husband is distinct from the wife, but they are one flesh. As Jesus said:

“Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” (Gen 19:4-6)

ANSWER: The Bible teached clearly and said, For the true people of (God) He has made known to
us the mystery (Ephesians 1:9) (Ibid). The True People of God knows clearly who is the True God, who is the True Christ, who is the Holy Spirit and there is know holy trinity and mind boggling. The True People of God is not Confuse to the teachings of the holy scriptures or the words of God because God enlighten their spirit.

But for the outside or false people of God it was a mystery of holy trinity and really mind boggling or confused. Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God but only one God. They didn’t know who is really God because their heart fulfilled darkness.

==============================================================================
If the Dogma of the Holy Trinity states that “there are three Persons in one God”, then marriage can also be similarly expressed as “there are two persons in one flesh.”

ANSWER: Your absolutely wrong that you compared your Dogma of the Holy Trinity to the Matrimony
of Marriage. WHY?

Whereas the Dogma of the Holy Trinity is a demonic instructions (1 Timothy 4:1)(Ibid).

Whereas the Matrimony of Marriage which is God made, teached clearly and said as follows,

For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. (Ephesians 5:23). He is the head of the body, the church (Colosians 1:18)(Ibid). Abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two (Ephesians 2:15)(Ibid).

And it was made clear to the true people of God that Christ is the head and savior of his body which is the church. This is one new person that christ created himself. I will build my church (Mathew 16:18) (Ibid).

For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God (John 3:34)(Ibid).

43. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

If the “Word” is a mere concept or plan of God, the pronoun for the Word is “It”. But the Apostle John describes the “Word” as a “He”, a Person and not a concept or plan.

44. artsee says:

The Bible mentions Jesus as Son of God and not God the Son. There’s a great difference. If you believe you’re a Christian, then you’re also son of God. Does it mean you’re also God?

To end all these arguments about Chris’s deity, allow me to pose this query: Where is Christ right now?

Certainly, your answer will be as based in the Bible that Christ is now sitting at the right hand of God in heaven. If Christ is also God, then there are two Gods sitting beside one another.

45. true says:

Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on December 30, 2009 at 12:29 pm

If the “Word” is a mere concept or plan of God, the pronoun for the Word is “It”. But the Apostle John describes the “Word” as a “He”, a Person and not a concept or plan.

1. God teach clearly and said that Christ is not God, For I am God and not man (Hosea 11:9)
2. Jesus Christ teached clearly and said that he is not God, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. (John 20:17)(Ibid). But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God (John 8:40) (Ibid).

Whereas one of the evidence, This man (Christ), delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge
of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him (Acts 2:23).

Whereas 2nd evidence, In these last days, (God/he) spoke to us through (Christ/a son), whom (God/he) made (Christ/heir) of all things and through whom (God/he) created the universe (Hebrews 1:2).

Whereas 3rd evidence, Jesus Christ teached clearly and said, This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he (God) sent (John 6:29) (Ibid).

Whereas 4rth evidence, Christ revealed that, But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God (John 8:40) (Ibid).

Whereas 5th evidence, (CHRIST) He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in
his mouth (1 Peter 2:22).

ALL BOOKS IN THE BIBLE CAN JUSTIFY CLEALY THAT;

1. GOD IS ONE.
2. JESUS CHRIST IS NOT GOD. OUR GOD made JESUS as follows:
CHRIST, LORD, MESSIAH, LEADER and SAVIOR

For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God (John 3:34)(Ibid).

46. artsee says:

Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on December 30, 2009 at 12:29 pm

If the “Word” is a mere concept or plan of God, the pronoun for the Word is “It”. But the Apostle John describes the “Word” as a “He”, a Person and not a concept or plan.

….Smart argument. Even if it was pronoun “He”, it does not prove that Jesus is God in that verse. Christ is the fulfillment of God’s plan.

47. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

I am glad that we are doing our best to understand each other’s argument. I shall try to clarify my understanding of your ideas. Please check the statement(s) that you agree:

1. The Word is a concept or plan of God and not a person. When John refers to the “Word” using the pronoun “He” (Jn 1:1-2), John is only trying personify the concept or plan in the same way as a poet personifies the moon by referring to it as a “She” and giving it human attributes: “The moon smiled at me”.

2. The Word is a “He” and is a real person.

3. Humans, angels, and God are persons. Animals, plants, and things, thoughts, and ideas are not persons.

48. artsee says:

The post by a certain True has explained the issue. And please answer my above question as to where Christ is right now.

49. artsee says:

On the issue of who Jesus Christ really is, it’s easy to verify that the story of Joseph of Egypt (old testament) is exactly analogous to that of Jesus:

– Joseph had 12 brothers; Jesus had 12 disciples
– Joseph was sold to the Egyptians by Judah; Jesus was sold to the High Priest by Judas

It’s not surprising that Jesus’ birth falls on a Pagan holiday because Christianity is a Pagan Religion. The Cross is actually two sun rays crisscrossing each supported with a halo circle.

Jesus is just a personification of the zodiac sign Pisces. That’s why he is considered the “fisher of men”. The three kings are actually the three stars on the Orion Belt. Science started on Astrology. The problem we have today is caused by the tendency of some to stay that way.

The Old Testament is a hybrid of history and legends or myths. The New Testament is the work of Jesuits to put the world in slavery as it is now.

Marcos was deceived by these con men to send 600,000+ tons of OUR gold bars, not Yamashita’s, to Switzerland (Vatican Treasury) in exchange of Gold Certificates, which are mere papers that have numbers and fancy decorations on it, which the Jesuit by all indications will not honor it.

Now, they are positioning another Jesuit Puppet to become the next president. The Jesuit Council of Trent based in Makati are in full force.

So if you want real change, get rid of the religion that’s not ours to begin with. Let’s all get back to our senses (that state prior to 1521).

If you study and dig deeper into Science, you will find:

Life = Energy

Energy (in the form of Electromagnetic Waves) “broadcast” itself at different frequencies (vibrations per second).

Each frequency may manifests as Light, Heat, Electricity, Magnetism, etc. Other frequencies may manifest as Matter planets, men, plants, etc), Thoughts or Intelligence.

In this case the bible is right when it said that in the beginning there’s nothing but the Thought. But in the final analysis, there’s really no beginning and therefore no end. Everything will just transform from one type of manifestation into another.

We don’t really die. We only have One Body. We all share in the divinity of Nature, the one true God that we all fail to understand.

Bible shun idolatry. And yet the Vatican promotes it.

I understand this:

1. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. So is God.

2. Energy can only be transformed. So is Nature.

3. It’s easy to understand that Life is Energy.

Ergo,

Life = Energy = Nature = God

Life = God or
do we prefer, “God is Life”?

Simple.

But those with ulterior motives tried to complicate things, so that we won’t see the forest, just the trees.

Again, it’s not a coincidence when:

– Joseph of Egypt have 12 brothers, and Jesus have 12 disciples;
– Joseph was sold to the Egyptians by Judah, and Jesus was sold to the High Priest by Judas

Jesus is just a personification of the Zodiac sign Pisces – “The Fisher of Men”. Christianity is a Pagan Religion.

Virgin birth, resurrection, are common features in almost all past religions.

The New Testament is just a fabrication. Look at the big picture:

Q1: what could happen if you tell the people that even though they’re poor, they need not worry for they shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven?

A1: Submission.

Q2: what could happen if you encourage them to repeat the same lies over and over again thru the “Holy” Rosary?

A1: Mind Control. Hypnotism is done thru repetitions.

That’s the purpose of Religion. Preserve the Body, but Take Away the Mind.

Sometimes, we are compelled to ask if there’s a need for religion.

50. artsee says:

Mr. Sugon, you speak like SUGOn ng Diyos. You mentioned that God sent His Son. How can God sends Himself if Christ is also God? Clearly, there is a sender and the one being sent.

51. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

Thank you for at last revealing yourself. You are not a Christian but a scientologist. You believe that the Old Testament is a hybrid of history and legends or myths. You also believe that the New Testament is the work of Jesuits to put the world in slavery as it is now. This means there is no use in quoting the Bible as authority because you don’t believe it. This means that when you say that a certain man here named Truth has explained the issue, you do not really believe his explanation. At least, Truth is an INC who believes in the truth of the Bible and he tries his best to base his arguments on it.

The essence of a dialogue is to agree first on basic definitions, like What is a Person? Since you refuse to agree on basic definitions, there is no point in pursuing this line of dialogue. The most that I can tell you is that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ is true God (God the Son) and true man (Son of Man). The Church also teaches that there are three Persons in one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is as much that I can say. Nothing more.

I am curious about your beliefs. They are based on physics and I am a theoretical physicist. I know energy and electromagnetic waves. I know science and pseudo-science. And I know that you are not a scientist.

If you want to continue this dialogue, let us agree on a definition of “Religion”. Then I shall show you that you also believe in a religion, though it is not a Christian religion, so that if you say that there is no need for a religion, you will contradict yourself.

52. artsee says:

I always keep an open mind. There was once I was atheist after being disappointed with so many religions. I reached a point when I didn’t believe in organized religions. Those were just money making institutions. Preachers and Ministers are like salesmen. A little knowledge of the Bible and ability to persuade an audience to buy your product or religion is all you need.

There was a time when I believed in Christ’s deity and Trinity. But the Bible is silence on both. Show me a verse in the Bible that states Christ is God the Son. What we can read is Son of God. As I pointed out earlier, there’s a great difference between the two.

53. artsee says:

By the way, after Edwardo Manalo, who will succeed him? I’m sure even this early, he has already chosen someone from Manalo clan again to be his successor. At his age and given the uncertainty of life, one can pass away anytime. This brings me to the same question what if El Shaddai’s Bro. Mike Velarde dies. Unlike INC, El Shaddai would collapse without Velarde. Same is true with Ely Soriano of Ang Dating Daan. Would his successor if there’s one be able to run the religious group? One thing good (or bad) about INC is the members’ submission and obedience to the church administration. That’s why INC needs to keep the Manalo name going. Another name might spell trouble for the church in the future.

54. True says:

Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on January 2, 2010 at 10:15 am

The essence of a dialogue is to agree first on basic definitions, like What is a Person? Since you refuse to agree on basic definitions, there is no point in pursuing this line of dialogue. The most that I can tell you is that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ is true God (God the Son) and true man (Son of Man). The Church also teaches that there are three Persons in one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is as much that I can say. Nothing more.

ANSWER: YES TEACHING OF YOUR CHURCH AUTHORITY WAS IT CALLED FATHER AS IT MEANS FATHER OF THE SPIRIT AS ONE OF THE PROPHECY IN THE BIBLE THAT IT WILL COME IN THE END THE TEACHING OF DEMONS.

Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences (1 Timothy 4:1-2).

CHURCH OF DEMONS TEACHES ARE FOLLOWS

1. This church teached you must called the church authority a man was called Father as it means Father in spirit.

THE BIBLE TEACHED CLEARLY AND GOD SAID He shall cry to me,’You are my father, my God (Psalms 89:27). God is Spirit (John 4:24) (Ibid).

IT WAS VERY CLEARED THAT THE CHURCH MR. QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. BELONG WAS THE CHURCH OF DEMONS. THEIR FATHER IN SPIRIT WAS A MAN AN AUTHORITY OF THEIR CHURCH. THE REASON WHY THEY HAVE GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT WHICH VIOLATES THE TEACHINGS OF THE BIBLE.

2. This church teached to carved, bow down and worship idols.

THE BIBLE TEACHED CLEARLY AND SAID Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands (Psalms 115:4). Children, be on your guard against idols (I John 5:21).

PRESENTED ONLY 2 (TWO) BUT WE HAVE 12 TEACHINGS OF DEMONS THAT CLEARLY VIOLATES THE WORD OF GOD.

I am curious about your beliefs. They are based on physics and I am a theoretical physicist. I know energy and electromagnetic waves. I know science and pseudo-science. And I know that you are not a scientist.

If you want to continue this dialogue, let us agree on a definition of “Religion”. Then I shall show you that you also believe in a religion, though it is not a Christian religion, so that if you say that there is no need for a religion, you will contradict yourself.

55. artsee says:

The above post reminds me of a story when my friend met a Priest inside the elevator. He greeted the Priest: “Father, where is Mother?”

I absolutely agree with INC’s position that Christ is a Man but given many qualities that no ordinary man has. To claim that He is God just because He performs miracles and wonders could not be the basis. His power came from God. Even the Devil believes in God and trembles. Even the Devil performs miracle and wonders.

How can Christ be both God and Man? If God sent His son Jesus and Jesus is God…then there are two Gods. Defenders of Trinity concedes it’s a mystery. Is that the only explanation?

As I said, religion is reconciliation with God. After man committed sin, he is condemned to death and this death is not physical death but death in the Lake of Fire. The only way to redemption and salvation is to return/reconcile with God through Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

56. artsee says:

And Catholics argue that they are not actually worshiping the graven images but just to remind them of God. What? Not worshiping…and why kneel down, touch, and kiss the image?

In fact, a friend’s asthma got worsen because of constant kissing of the graven image, the statues where sometimes the dusts are not properly wiped out.

After being advised not to touch or kiss the statue again, my friend has recovered from asthma.

Kidding aside, it doesn’t make sense doing it to graven image and statue. Please check this out:

57. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

Let us first make a distinction between sons of God and the Son of God.

1. The “sons of God” refer to the creatures with a close or intimate relationship with God. They can be angels as in the story of Job: “One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, Satan also came among them” (Job 1:6). They can also be pious men: “Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings . . . He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD” (Wis 2:13). The son of God can also refer to Israel as a nation: “So you shall say to Pharaoh: Thus says the LORD: Israel is my son, my first-born” (Ex 4:22).

2. The Son of God is not a creature but is begotten by God. There is only one that can claim the title Son of God: “And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth” (Jn 1:14). Another verse is “God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him” (1 Jn 4:9). Other translation write “only begotten Son” instead of “only Son”

If you accept these distinctions, then I shall proceed to show that the Son of God is God the Son. Just write “Yes”, if you accept. If you write “No”, please explain why.

58. artsee says:

Hey, you seem to be dictating the discussion. Please stop demanding by saying “If….if….if.” I don’t think you have a monopoly of discussion here.

Are Christians or are we not all sons of God? Are you not son of God? Are we not sons and daughters of God? Does it make us also God? If you seem to brag about your knowledge of the Bible. Well then, show me where it is in the Bible that states Christ is God the Son.

59. artsee says:

So what if Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God? It only shows His uniqueness. He is unique in the sense that He possesses special qualities. He is the Only One Who did not sin. But just the same, He is a Man in nature. He was born as Man, grew up as Man, died as Man, resurrected as Man, ascended to heaven as Man and will return as Man. If you argue that His resurrection alone proves that He is God; let me tell you that he did not resurrect Himself….God resurrected Jesus. If Jesus is also God, he did not need another to resurrect Him.

60. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

You must understand that this is my blog. I can delete uncharitable comments. If you think I am dictating the discussion, I am not. If you understand Socratic dialogue, that is what I am trying to do, and also with Truth before. If-else statements are the foundations of logic, and these statements are used computer programming, for example. Since this approach is not familiar to you and to Truth, I shall think of other options.

61. artsee says:

There you go…that was an indirect threat to stop me from expressing my views. Is that all you do now telling me your power as the owner of this blog? Is that your way of surrendering? If I don’t see my post again, then I can say you’re a loser. I won’t spend a minute of my time exchanging with someone even if he’s the owner of this blog who cannot engage in a fair game.

62. artsee says:

Or were you offended by the above video I sent? If you delete my post and my name, then I could open my own blog and invite you.

63. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

1. If Christ is a mere man, he would only be about 30 years old when he was preaching to the Jews. So how do you resolve the paradox of his claim that he existed before Abraham, and has seen him?

“So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.” (Jn 8:57-58).

If Christ is a mere plan of God, Christ would simply be an inanimate idea without any consciousness and sight, even if Christ was conceived before Abraham. But Christ has seen Abraham and he is conscious that he came before Abraham.

2. I cannot find the phrase “God the Son” in the Bible, but it suffices to show that Christ, the Son of God, is God. The Apostle Paul says that Christ is of the form of God and is equal to God:

“Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. (Phil 2: 5-8)

3. But this does not mean that there are two Gods, for Christ said:

“The Father and I are one” (Jn 10:30)
“The Father is in me and I am in the Father.” (Jn 10:38)

The Jews correctly understood the meaning of these verses, that is why they tried to stone him:

“Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.” (Jn 10:32-33)

4. Christ commanded his apostles to baptize everyone in the “name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19). Notice that it is not “names” but “name”, singular. The Catholic understanding of this is that there is only one God but there are three divine Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Notice, too, that the Father is of equal dignity with the Son. So if you say “God the Father”, you should also say “God the Son”.

64. Non-Catholics will always be that way. Unless they change their hearts, believe and convert.
God bless you Mr. Quirino for your wisdom and intelligence in defending the Church. I wish I have those gifts…

Saludos!

65. Steve B says:

Believers are convinced by reference to scripture or doctrinal statements of Church Authority. Non believers rarely are. This was recognized by Christ in his ministry when he admonished the beneficiaries of miracles to tell no one about it. Moses’ miracles proved nothing to Pharoah. Proof by scripture is only found in faith. The mystery of the unity of God and Man in Christ is beyond logic and can only be grasped in faith.
It’s interesting to note that Stephen was condemned for claiming to see the Son of Man standing on the right hand of the Father (Acts 7:56-59)
” 56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.

57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and rushed upon him with one accord;

58 and they cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon the Lord, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. ”

The Right hand of the Father is the judgement position.

66. artsee says:

Cardinal Rosales wants the politicians to donate instead the funds the political candidates would be spending on the tarpaulins and streamers to his Pondo ng Pinoy.

It will be recalled that when Rosales first came up with the Pondo ng Pinoy fund, which was supposed to have been a fund reserved to improve the lives of the poor, he asked for people to give their loose change of 25 centavos to the Pondo ng Pinoy, and made it clear that he would not be accepting any money from politicians.

It turned out however, that Rosales had quickly accepted huge amounts of money from President Arroyo and Malacañang for his Pondo ng Pinoy project.

To this day, however, Rosales and the Catholic Church have not given any accounting of the money collected from the faithful and where this money went.

67. artsee says:

Those who claim to be Christians will agree that idolatry is a grave sin against God. The Bible clearly teaches that those who are guilty of such a sin will suffer punishments (Gal. 5:19-21, Rev. 21:8). Whether knowingly or not, they reject God as did the pagan idolaters through their wrong beliefs and actions.

Apostle Paul forwarned that those who claim to know God but in truth are closet idolaters as written in (Rom. 1:21-23, 25).

68. artsee says:

John 1:1 is one of the most commonly used verses to prove Christ’ deity. But nowhere in the verse stated that Christ already pre-existed in the beginning or is He pointed out to be the true God who became man. So, there was no Christ yet existing in the beginning but only a “predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God (Acts 2:23) regarding the creation of Christ. God had Christ already in His mind as a plan even before Christ came to exist. The reason why the “word was with God” is because what was with God in the beginning was not Christ Himself but God’s Word…His knowledge or plan to create Christ.

The term Word in John 1:1 and 14 was translated from the Greek word “Logos”. The Logos or Word as be understood from the pronouncement of Apostle Peter was not Christ Himself pre-existing as God, but a plan or thought coming from God.

Another most frequently used is Philippians 2:6. Reading further on verse 9 it states “Wherefore God also jas highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name. The existence of two distinct beings is obvious: One is God who has highly exalted Christ and the other one is Christ who has been highly exalted by God. If Christ was God, how could He be highly exalted and be given the name which is above every name by God? How could Christ and the God who exalted Him be both truly God?

“Being in the form of God” and “being God” does not mean the same thing. They are in fact spiritually incomparable. Man was created in the image of God. Lest Christ’s being in the image of God be misunderstood in the visual sense, Apostle Paul pointed out that God is invisible. In fact, all men were created in God’s image.

John 10:30 states that “My Father and I are one”. First of all, the verse does not state the two are one God. In other translations, “My Father and I are united”, “My Father and I are in one accord”. Jesus and God are not one in nature. They are two separate beings. Christ is subordinate to the Father. The Father is supreme over Christ. In Matthew 24:36: “No one knows when that day and hour will come, neither the angels in heaven or the Son; the Father alone knows.” If Christ is truly God, He should know when His Second coming is.

69. True says:

Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on January 3, 2010 at 5:20 pm

The Catholic understanding of this is that there is only one God but there are three divine Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Notice, too, that the Father is of equal dignity with the Son. So if you say “God the Father”, you should also say “God the Son”.

ALL BOOKS IN THE HOLY BIBLE CAN JUSTIFY CLEALY THAT;

JESUS CHRIST IS NOT GOD. GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, JACOB, ISRAEL AND OUR GOD made
JESUS as follows: CHRIST, LORD, MESSIAH, LEADER and SAVIOR.

WHEREAS ONE OF THE EVIDENCE, for certain that GOD has MADE him (CHRIST) both LORD
and MESSIAH this Jesus whom you crucified (Acts 2:39) (Ibid).

WHEREAS 2ND EVIDENCE, GOD EXALTED him (CHRIST) at his right hand AS LEADER and
SAVIOR to grant Israel repentance and forgiveness of sins (Acts 5:31).

WHEREAS 3RD EVIDENCE, GOD GREATLY EXALTED him (CHRIST) and BESTOWED on him
the name that is above every name (Philippians 2:9) (Ibid).

WHEREAS 4RTH EVIDENCE, (CHRIST) He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in
his mouth (1 Peter 2:22).

WHEREAS 5TH EVIDENCE, Jesus Christ teached clearly and said that he is not God, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. (John 20:17)(Ibid).

WHEREAS 6TH EVIDENCE CHRIST SAID, But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God (John 8:40) (Ibid).

WHEREAS THE 7TH EVIDENCE, the Dogma or AW-AW of the Holy Trinity is a demonic instructions (1 Timothy 4:1)(Ibid).

For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God (John 3:34)(Ibid).
God is Spirit (John 4:24) (Ibid).
God is Almighty
Yet for us there is one God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6) (Ibid).
For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father (Mathew 16:17) (Ibid).

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD THE FATHER.

BUT NOW THE DOGMA OR AW-AW OF THE HOLY TRINITY IS BARKING, THE BELIEF OF DEMONS.

P.S. Catholic Defender & QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. EACH UP TO YOU WHO YOU WILL BE BELIEVE, YOUR CURRENT FAITH OR YOU WANT TO KEEP SEARCHING. WHAT IT IS REALLY SURE IS THAT YOUR NOT IN THE TRUE FAITH.

70. artsee says:

Where is Mr. Sugon? Still doing research for his answers?

71. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

1. You haven’t addressed the issue of the preexistence of Christ when he said, “Before Abraham was, I am.”

2. If you want to understand the meaning of the “being in the form of God,” read the verse next to it, so that you will see that it implies “equality with God”.

I shall address the other issues later this afternoon.

72. True says:

Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on January 11, 2010 at 11:12 am

1. You haven’t addressed the issue of the preexistence of Christ when he said, “Before Abraham
was, I am.”

2. If you want to understand the meaning of the “being in the form of God,” read the verse next to it, so that you will see that it implies “equality with God”.

WHEREAS ONE OF THE EVIDENCE THE BIBLE TEACHED CLEARLY AND TRUE CHRIST APOSTLE SAID, This man (Christ), delivered up by the SET PLAN and FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him (Acts 2:23).

WHEREAS 2ND EVIDENCE THE BIBLE TEACHED CLEARLY AND TRUE CHRIST APOSTLE SAID, In these last days, (God/he) spoke to us through (Christ/a son), whom (God/he) made heir of all things and through (Chris/whom) (God/he) created the universe (Hebrews 1:2).

WHEREAS 3RD EVIDENCE, THAT YOU CANNOT GIVE US THE VERSE IN THE HOLY BIBLE THAT SON IS GOD & HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD. YOU JUST BLINDLY FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF DARKNESS, THE DOGMA OR AW-AW HOLY TRINITY IS BARKING.

God is Spirit (John 4:24) (Ibid). Yet for us there is one God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6) (Ibid).

For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God (John 3:34)(Ibid).

P.S: Christ Said, For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father (Mathew 16:17) (Ibid).

QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. YOU MUST LET IT GO YOUR CURRENT FAITH THAT TEACHED ANIMAL (DOG)MA DOCTRINES. START SEARCHING I KNOW THAT YOUR VERY INTELLIGENT PERSON.

73. Steve B. says:

I still say that proof from scripture or instructional correspondence from the Vatican will not convince people of things that can only be known through faith.

You have to accept the first premise, ie the authority of scripture or the Vatican, to take as proof anything that proceeds from those sources.

74. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee and Truth,

Christianity is not a pagan religion. In the pagan religions of ancient Rome and Greece, ordinary mortals could become gods by their own strength and power, as in the story of Hercules. But this is not Christianity. Christ is not a mere man who became god by doing humanly impossible tasks like those of Hercules. Christ is the only begotten Son of God who became man. Christ is true God who became true man. In his becoming man, Christ remains true God. The idea of INC and of the New Age movement about Christ is closer to that of a pagan religion. The New Age religion is really the revived Old Age pagan religions–Buddhism, Hinduism, Witchcraft, etc. Arianism, the precursor of INC, is nothing but a pagan reaction to really new doctrines of Christianity: Arianism could not accept that Christ is both true God and true man, neither confused nor mixed.

The Son of God became man so that man may become like God. Christ, the Son of God, wants man to become sons of God by adoption. As St. Paul explained:

“But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to ransom those under the law, so that we might receive adoption. As proof that you are children, God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” So you are no longer a slave but a child, and if a child then also an heir, through God.” (Gal 4:4-7)

The Dogma of the Trinity is difficult to understand. But here is an analogy. Look at yourself in a mirror. Notice that you are your reflection. You like what you are seeing. You love what you are seeing. Now imagine that this reflection becomes a distinct person. You like him and he likes you, too. You love him and he loves you, too. Yet your reflection is still you. In a similar way, Christ, the Son of God, is the image of the God the Father. Adam and Eve were also made in the image and likeness of God, but they are imperfect images and likeness, since they are mere creatures. Only God is a true reflection of himself. The Son of God is therefore the only perfect reflection of God the Father. The Father and the Son shares in the same Godhead, but they are distinct persons, because one is a reflection of the other. This is the Catholic understanding of the following verses:

“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.” (Jn 17:20-23)

Thomas said to him, “Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves. (Jn 14:5-11).

Now, going back to our analogy, imagine that the love between you and your reflection results to a new person, in the same way as the love of the husband and wife results to a child which is of the image of his father and mother. This is an analogy for the procession of the Holy Spirit: the Holy Spirit is the Love between the Father and the Son. The Apostle John describes the Holy Spirit as the Advocate:

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.” (Jn 14:15-21)

The Holy Spirit shares in the same Godhead as the Father and the Son, because the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

This is the Dogma of the Holy Trinity. And every Christian is baptized in the Trinitarian formula commanded by Christ:

“All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mt 28:19-20)

75. True says:

Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on January 11, 2010 at 3:02 pm

Absolutely Christianity is not a Pagan Religion. But are you a Christian Quirino M. Sugon Jr.? I don’t think so and lets the Bible provide the proof hereunder your Pagan ways.

What is a Paganism?
1. belief that the whole of reality is divine (Dogma of the Holy Trinity)
2. belief in many gods (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit)
3. belief that natural features of the world are invested with divine power (Saint Pope)

I. Your Church authority is a man you called it Father as it means Father in Spirit. It was very cleared that you are contradicting the teachings of the Holy Bible. How many Father in your church do you have? That’s the number of your gods a man an authority of your church by caolling them Father in Spirit.

What is VICARIVS FILLI DEI? Replacement to the Son of God. Source:

THE HOLY BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHED AND THE TRUE PROPHETS SAID,
What is God? God is Spirit (John 4:24) (Ibid).
How many and who is the True God? Yet for us there is one God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6) (Ibid).
Where is the True God? Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven (Mathew 23:9).

II. Your church carved graven images, bow down and worship them. It was very cleared that you are contradicting the teachings of the Holy Bible. How many graven images, idols or molten images do you have? That’s the number of gods do you have according to the Holy Bible.

What is Idols? Something that is worshiped as a god, e.g. a statue or carved image
What is Graven Images? carving of god: a carving representing a god

THE HOLY BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHED AND THE TRUE PROPHETS SAID,
What are the characteristics false gods according to the Holy Bible?
1. They lift it to their shoulders to carry; when they set it in place again, it stays, and does not move from the spot. Although they cry out to it, it cannot answer; it delivers no one from distress (Isaias 46:7). They have mouths but do not speak, eyes but do not see (Psalms 115:5). They have ears but do not hear, noses but do not smell (Psalms 115:6). They have hands but do not feel, feet but do not walk, and no sound rises from their throats (Psalms 115:7).

III. Your Father and Sisters in your Church are Forbidden to Married Right? Absolutely. It was very cleared that you are contradicting the teachings of the Holy Bible.

THE HOLY BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHED AND THE TRUE PROPHETS SAID,
The priest shall marry a virgin (Levitico 21:13).
If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries (1 Corinthians 7:28).

THERE ARE SO MANY WISDOM IN YOUR CHURCH CONTRADICT AND VIOLATES TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE HOLY BIBLE EVEN YOUR BLOG COULDN’T COVER IT.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT YOUR CHURCH WISDOM QUIRINO M. SUGON JR.?

Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? (1 Corinthians 1:20) (Ibid).

For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God (John 3:34)(Ibid).

P.S: Christ Said, For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father (Mathew 16:17) (Ibid).

QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. YOU MUST LET IT GO YOUR CURRENT FAITH THAT TEACHED ANIMAL (DOG)MA DOCTRINES. START SEARCHING I KNOW THAT YOUR VERY INTELLIGENT PERSON.

76. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

SteveB B.,

As St. Augustine puts it, “Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.” I am pondering on Christ’s words: “Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces” (Mt 7:6).

77. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

To INC members:

A debate between Chito Fejer of INC and one of the Catholic Faith Defenders is being organized by the Catholic Apologist Cenon Bibe of the “Tumbukin Natin” blog. This is an exciting development. I’ll keep you posted:

http://tumbukin-natin.blogspot.com/2010/01/debateng-hamon-ng-mga-kaanib-ng-inc.html

78. Steve B. says:

That sounds like good advise. Contention often hardens positions, and removes a willingness to hear. If Christianity was based on intellectual assent, the world would be Christian. How many words have been written, and how many cogent arguments made? Christianity relies on the same knowledge that is spoken of in Genesis, and by St. Theresa of Avilla; by St. Francis of Assisi.

79. blackshama says:

Gee whiz!. Vicarius Filli Dei ISN”T ANY OF THE POPE”s official titles. These are the Pope’s titles

His Holiness The Pope;
– Bishop Of Rome And Vicar Of Jesus Christ;
– Successor Of St. Peter, Prince Of The Apostles;
– Supreme Pontiff Of The Universal Church;
– Patriarch Of The West;
– Servant Of The Servants Of God;
– Primate Of Italy;
– Archbishop And Metropolitan Of The Roman Province;
– Sovereign Of Vatican City State.

Vicar of Christ is the official title. Benedict XVI recently dropped “Patriarch of the West” since the Catholic Church is found throughout the world today. The title is of historical interest only.

Bishop of Rome is the MOST IMPORTANT TITLE. He is Vicar of Christ since he occupies the See which Saint Peter held.

80. True says:

TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR., STEVE B & BLACKSHAMA;

What is a Paganism?
1. belief that the whole of reality is divine (Dogma of the Holy Trinity)
2. belief in many gods (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit)
3. belief that natural features of the world are invested with divine power (Saint Pope)

What is Idols? Something that is worshiped as a god, e.g. a statue or carved image
What is Graven Images? carving of god: a carving representing a god

SATAN TEACHING GOD TEACHINGS
Left Right
1. MAN was called Father in Spirit. 1. God is Father in Spirit.
2. Carved Idols, bow down & worship them. 2. God Forbidden to Carved Idols, bow down and
worship them.
3. Father & Sisters Forbidden not to Married. 3. God Build Marrige & Forbidden
Divorce.
4. Drink & Eat Blood. 4. God Forbidden not to eat Blood.
5. Drunkards 5. God Forbidden not to Drink hard wine.
6. Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God 6. Father is God
7. Christ is messenger by God
8. Holy Spirit is messenger by God

No slave is greater than his master nor any messenger greater than the one who sent him (John 13:16)(Ibid).

For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God (John 3:34)(Ibid).

81. True says:

TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR., STEVE B & BLACKSHAMA;

What is a Paganism?

What is Idols? Something that is worshiped as a god, e.g. a statue or carved image

What is Graven Images? carving of god: a carving representing a god

SATAN TEACHING
Left
1. MAN was called Father in Spirit.
2. Carved Idols, bow down & worship them.
3. Father & Sisters Forbidden not to Married.
4. Drink & Eat Blood.
5. Drunkards
6. Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God.

GOD TEACHINGS
Right
1. God is Father in Spirit.
2. God Forbidden to Carved Idols, bow down and worship them.
3. God Build Marrige & Forbidden Divorce.
4. God Forbidden not to eat Blood.
5. God Forbidden not to Drink hard wine.
6. Father is God
7. Christ is messenger by God
8. Holy Spirit is messenger by God

No slave is greater than his master nor any messenger greater than the one who sent him (John 13:16)(Ibid).

For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God (John 3:34)(Ibid).

82. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

The Wise Men prostrated themselves before Christ:

They were overjoyed at seeing the star, and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage. Then they opened their treasures and offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. (Mt 2:10-11)

This is the meaning “to prostrate” in the American Heritage Dictionary:

1. To put or throw flat with the face down, as in submission or adoration: “He did not simply sit and meditate, he also knelt down, sometimes even prostrated himself” (Iris Murdoch).

Notice that to prostrate is a greater action than to simply kneel. Now this is my question to you:

By prostrating in front of Jesus, do the Wise Men worship Jesus as God or do they simply give Him reverence as King?

83. Steve B. says:

It’s hard to say. Sometimes the Persians required prostration before the king. It wasn’t unknown in the middle east.

84. artsee says:

The debate is a welcome idea. But I still have to see Catholic Church winning in a debate with INC. As for INC, no member is allowed to engage in a formal debate in any forum without the church administration’s approval.

Here’s another couple of responses to Mr. Sugon:

1. Concerning Abraham, God made His covenant with Abraham. God promised to Abraham that His covenant was not only to him but also to his seed. Christ is the seed of Abraham. Christ did not exist yet when God made a covenant with Abraham. What existed was God’s promise regarding Abraham’s seed who would turn out to be Christ to Whom God would keep the same covenant He has made to Abraham.

2. Christ cannot be equal to God. All of Christ’s power came from God. God sent Christ. There is a sender and the one being sent. God does not change so to say that God became man is wrong. This is clearly written in Mal. 3:6. Using the verse in the book of Philippians to say that Christ is equal to God is a wrong interpretation. There are two distinct beings: One is God who has highly exalted Christ and given the name which is above every name and the other one is Christ who has been highly exalted by God. If Christ was truly God, how could He be highly exalted and given the name which is above every name? How could Christ and the God, who exalted Him, be both “truly God”?

85. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

Thank you for your time. We have heard each other’s sides. I have explained the dual nature of Christ as true man and true God. I have explained the Dogma of the Trinity. You also presented your objections, particularly on the preexistence of Christ. If we continue, we will still be presenting the same statements, as Steve B remarked. Let us now give it to the readers to decide.

86. laycarmelite says:

True wrote:

Yet for us there is one God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Let us complete the verse. “True” cut it so the essence is lost.

Ang tanging ipinakikipaglaban po ng ating mga kaibigang INC defenders ay “Isa lang ang Dios”. Kaya’t hindi daw maaring Dios din si Hesus. Dito ay bibigyan po natin sila ng kaparehong diin.(1 Cor.8:6) “But to us there is one God,the Father,of whom are all things,and we in him;and”ONE LORD”Jesus Christ,”

Isa lang ang Panginoon nangangahulugan ba ito na hindi na Panginoon ang Ama? Kung sinasabi nilang dahil isa lang ang Dios, at dahil dito’y di na maaring kilalaning Dios si Jesus. Paano po yan? Isa lang ang Panginoon eh di lalabas na di na panginoon ang Ama?

87. laycarmelite says:

True wrote:

SATAN TEACHING
Left
1. MAN was called Father in Spirit.
===
Provide proof that this is a teaching in the Catholic Church
===
2. Carved Idols, bow down & worship them.
===
Provide proof that this is a teaching in the Catholic Church
===
3. Father & Sisters Forbidden not to Married.
===
Provide proof that this is a teaching in the Catholic Church
===
4. Drink & Eat Blood.
===
Provide proof that this is a teaching in the Catholic Church
===
5. Drunkards
===
Provide proof that this is particularly a Catholic problem
===
6. Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God.
===
Provide proof that this is satan’s teaching.

Tsk. tsk. tsk. All you do is merely assert.

88. artsee says:

As a matter of fact, defenders of Christ’s deity are the ones asserting Christ is God when He is not. Even John 17: 1-3 proves He is not.

89. laycarmelite says:

Actually you’re the one who is lying. Can you actually say Jesus is NOT God in John 17:3? I’m sure your answer is no, Jesus is not God. But can you actually say Jesus is good based on Mark 10:18?

90. True says:

Posted by laycarmelite on January 19, 2010 at 4:27 pm

TO LAYCARMELITE, QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. AND TO ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT IN THE TRUE CHURCH.

The true church upholds these biblical truths: “THE TRUE NATURE OF GOD AND CHRIST”

1. God is Spirit in His state of being, which means that He has no flesh and bones (John 4:24) (Lk 24:39). WHILE Christ is man in His state of being, meaning He has flesh and bones (John 8:40) (Lk 24:39).

2. God is immortal (I Timothy 1:17). WHILE Christ experienced death, the cessation of breath (John 19:30, 33).

3. God has no beginning (Psalms 90:2) WHILE Christ came from God (John 8:42).

4. God does not recognize any other God besides Himself (Isaias 44:8). WHILE Christ recognizes the only true God as His God (Mark 15:34, John 20:17).

5. God does not get tired or weary (Isaias 40:28). WHILE Christ got tired (John 4:6).

6. God is not born of any woman (Number 23:19). WHILE Christ was born of a woman (Galatians 4:4). and Christ cannot perform anything without the Almighty God empowering or enabling Him (Joh 5:30, Acts 10:38).

For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God (John 3:34)(Ibid).

OTHER STATEMENT CONTRADICT IN THE ABOVE TEACHING IS A FALSE CHURCH UNDER SATAN RULES AND DOCTRINES WHICH CALLED THE DOGMA OF HOLY TRINITY – DOG is a domestic ANIMAL right? Have you not seen, have you not heard how this false faith propagating. Let say and observe if you are not A PAGAN.

What is a Paganism?
1. belief that the whole of reality is divine (Dogma of the Holy Trinity) DOG is a domestic ANIMAL.
Do you know these churches who are doing this?

2. belief in many gods (Father is God, Son is God. Holy Spirit is God, Graven Images is God & Many Gods they call it Fathers a man an authority of their church).
Do you know these churches who are doing this?

3. belief that natural features of the world are invested with divine power (Holy Pope) or Vicar of Christ or Replacement to the Son of God or Kahalili ng Anak ng Dios.
Do you know these churches who are doing this?

What is Idols? Something that is worshiped as a god, e.g. a statue or carved image.
Do you know these Churches who are doing this?

What is Graven Images? carving of god: a carving representing a god.
Do you know these churches who are doing this?

I’M UNDER A PAGAN PRACTICES BEFORE LIKE YOU. BUT BECAUSE OF GOD LOVE HE LET ME SEE AND UNDERSTAND HIS TEACHING TO LEAD IN SALVATION.

91. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

If you only get a good dictionary, you will see that the root word of Dogma is not Dog. A dogma is a “doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.” Ang dogma ay doctrina o kabuoan ng doctrina hinggil sa mga bagay tulad ng moralidad at pananampalataya, na indineklara sa autoridad ng simbahan.

If you like to play with words and apply this playfulness to the name of your founder, Felix Manalo, we can show that Felix, which is actually rooted in the Latin word which means “happy or fortunate”, sounds like “Felis” which means”Cat”. Felis Leo is the scientific name of Lion. Felis Domestica is the scientific name of House Cat. If we rewrite Manalo as Man-alo as you did to Dogma, we can then show that

Felix Manalo = Cat Man.= Pusang Tao.

And we can make the sound of Meow-meow as you did for Aw-aw for Dog-ma. So using your arguments, when you hang the picture of Felix Manalo, are you in fact worshiping the graven image of a CAT?

92. charlie says:

ask ko lang before namatay sa krus si Cristo sinu yung sinabihan nya na dios ko dios ko bakit mo ako pinabayaan kung sya ang dios…………. at si cristo ginawang panginoon ng Dios para sambahin ng tao inutos ng Dios yun at sya tagapamagitan sa Dios kaysa sa inyo kaninu?? di ba kay FATHER o pari nyo at mga santo santo. ang Dios ay espiritu kaya sambahin sa espiritu at katotohanan!
kinontra lahat pati mga apostol ng doktrina nyo at si cristo naging dios lang sa inyo nung 325AD at pati yung holy spirit nung 381AD, documented yan pati bday ni cristong dios nyo na dec25
SOL INVICTUS pagan god!!! meron bang sabsaban sa snow?? mga ungas may pastol ba nun..?
yung dios nyo may maitim may maputi may hawak pa krus ayun tigok yung inatake sa kabobohan

pakibasa pati apoc 14:9 at 13:16 kung sinu yang mga tumanggap ng alak ng kapootan ng Dios, hindi ba yung mga katoliko yung tumanggap ng tanda sa noo at kanang kamay…

pwede ba mag antanda ng kaliwa kamay gamit! hahaha!!! e2 pa pakikwenta mu maigi ung nasa likod na nakasuat sa sumbrero ng papa nyo sa roma… VICARIVS FILII DEI at ngayon ginawa ng VICARIVS FILISI DEI… V=5 , I=1 ,C=100, D500…. total 666 the anti-christ….
LOSERS!! tutal kayo nagsimula nyan so u deserve it!!!

93. laycarmelite says:

Charlie,

What you wrote has no substance. Pure speculation. Kindly submit evidences. Thank you.

94. charlie naniniwala ka pa rin ba sa VICARIUS FILII DEI na inimbento ng mga Sabadista na kinopya naman ni Felix Manalo.

Tell u what? The author of that lie, VICARIUS FILII DEI, the Seventh-Day Adventists had abandoned that after they proved those titles were actually not written in Papal Tiara. However, its a pity that members of Felix Manalo’s cult still believe in fabrications.

Losers ba kamo?

95. artsee says:

I have refrained from posting further because my posts were being deleted or censored.

96. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

I deleted your last post because I think it is off-topic and you copied it from somebody else. Better post a link instead. Those interested may look it up. Or better yet make your own blog and invite us to visit you there.

Quirino

97. artsee says:

What a lame excuse. You deleted it not because of anything else but because it was an anti-Catholic post. It’s just like the Catholic Church that tried to hide her wrong doings for centuries.

98. MEIZL MATABILAS says:

thanks to all…

99. artsee says:

You’re welcome.

100. artsee says:

Question:

Are there INC members who are also members of Freemasonry? Freemasons welcome all religious groups many of whom are Catholics. Does INC allow her members to join? Freemasonry and INC believe in one Supreme Being as well as place emphasis on brotherhood and submission to the hierarchy.

101. eye opener says:

Sa mga kapatid sa INC na nagpo-post dito..mga kapatid wag na po nating patulan ang mga ganitong klaseng diskusyon.. alam naman po natin ang katotohanan..hayaan nalang po natin silang siraan tayo..yun eh kung kaya nila tayong sirain..

putak sila ng putak hindi nga nila sinusuri ang aral katoliko..

i’m not good w/ verses..pero eto tanong ko:

1.alam nyo ba na maraming doktrinang katoliko na wala sa biblia?..infact invented ng mga papa
2.alam nyo rin bah na ang papa ay tinatawag ng mga pari na “ama ng kaluluwa” – which is really against the bible because ang DIYOS lng ang dapat tawagin noon
3. alam nyo rin bah na ang simbolo ng mga bulaang propeta ay sumusuot ng damit katulad ng isinuot ni panginoong jesucristo bago sya umakyat sa langit..kasing puti ng tupa…check nyo damit nang mga pari
4. alam nyo rin bah na ang signs ng mga alagad ni satanas ay yung nagbabawal sa pag.aasawa at pagbabawal ng pagkain ng lamang kati..–alam nyo na rin kng sino yan
5.at alam nyo rin bah na ang tanda nang mga itinalikod ni satanas ay ay tanda sa noo at kanang kamay?—-“sign of the cross”
6. sa isang libro na sinulat ng isang pari..kng saan inaako ng simbahang katoliko ang mga mali nilang ginawa..nakasulat doon ang pagaako ng mga pari sa pagiging responsable ng papa na ipapatay at ipasunog ang lahat ng kumakalaban o hindi sumusunod sa papa..–research nyo nalang.

if interesado kayo, search nyo nalang ang verses…except sa 1 & 6

sa topic nyo naman about sa INC logo…hindi gumagawa ang INC na hindi ikinukunsukta ang biblia.

at tungkol naman sa natural na estado ni cristo..xa ay TAO..pero BANAL..sapagkat xa ay anak ng DIYOS…
kng sabihin nyo naman ang ukol sa “the word was God”..hindi yun literal…
ang ibig sabihin nun eh kung sinuway mo ang utos nya..sinuway mo na rin sya…so paghindi mo kinilala si panginoong Jesukristo ay hindi mo rin kinikilala ang Diyos…ang Diyos ang NAGPADALA kay pang. Jesukristo…so tanong ko, magkapareho bah ang NAGPADALA sa IPINADALA?
“and God ‘GAVE’ his only begotten Son”..so pareho bah ang giver sa thing being given?

“Life on earth is an audition by GOD to mankind for them to be chosen to join him and Christ in heaven, but how can you be chosen if you’re in the WRONG AUDITION?”—think people.

anyways …GOD BLESS ALL OF OUR FAMILIES…”IN GOD WE TRUST”

102. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

eye opener,

If you prefer to write in Filipino, please go to Cenon Bibe’s blog, “Tumbukin Natin”. There is an ongoing debate there between Catholics and INC. You can post your comments there. Thank you.

Translation:

Kung nais mong sumulat sa wikang Filipino, nawa’y pumunta ka sa blog ni Cenon Bibe na “Tumbukin Natin”. May isang debateng nagaganap doon sa pagitan ng mga Katoliko at INC. Maari kang magtanong at magpahayag doon ng iyong mga kuro-kuro. Maraming salamat.

103. eye opener says:

oh..is this blog intends the comments only to be written in english?…well..im sorry..but i guess your a FIlipino right?.

and i didn’t see any instructions here that says to write every comment in english..

anyway..thnks.

104. artsee says:

Yes, only English or Chinese. Kung Hey Fat Choy !

105. Bro Romy says:

Christ founded only ONE Church and that is the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. ANG NAGIISANG iGLESIANG ITO ANG MAKAKARATING sa kapanahunan ng mga Apostol, kaya nga Apostolic. Ito ay sinasangayunan ng Pasugo ng Iglesia ni Cristo(Manalo), Pasugo April 1963,pa 27..
“…ang Iglesia Katolika na nung una’y siyang TUNAY NA IGLESIA NI CRISTO…
kita nyo na, pati pasugo ng INC ay sumasangayon na ang Iglesia Katolika ang TUNAY NA IGLESIA ng Panginoong Jesucristo.

106. artsee says:

Define Catholic. Where does this name originate?

107. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

I shall quote the Catechism:

Art 830 The word “catholic means “universal”, in the sense of “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.”

First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church” (St. Ignatius of Antioch Ad Smyrn). In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him “the fullness of the means of salvation” which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

Art 831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race.

Catholic –> katholikos meaning “universal”

Catholic–> katholikos is equall to Katholis in latin “Universam”. Here’s the proof : Luke 4:14(NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE) “kai feme ekelthen katholis tes perikorou peri autou.”
Luke. 4:14 (NOVUM TESTAMENTUM LATINE) “et fama exiit per universam regionem de illo.”

Catholic–>“Kataholos” or KATA HOLOS -Romans 1:8 (NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE) “He pistis humon KATangeketai en HOLO to kosmo…”

Catholic–>from compound verb which include a preposition “KATA” (throughout) and an adjective “HOLOS” (whole)

Source: Catholic Answers forum

108. Kean says:

Lemme quote this:
“Are there INC members who are also members of Freemasonry? Freemasons welcome all religious groups many of whom are Catholics. Does INC allow her members to join? Freemasonry and INC believe in one Supreme Being as well as place emphasis on brotherhood and submission to the hierarchy.”

I understand it as a approval of Freemasonry by INC, thus it can be implied that Felix Manalo is a member of the said organization. The seal of the cult proves it.

109. artsee says:

INC has copied many teachings and practices from other groups. So, it is not a surprise if Manalo indeed was once a member of Freemasonry. But unless one could prove that he belonged to Mason Lodge, it remains to be mere speculation.

110. artsee says:

One religious group established in the Philippines and now present in more than 70 countries with the US carrying the bulk of this church’s growing membership is the Church of Christ, Iglesia ni Cristo in Filipino. Their much talk about Unity Doctrine is the envy of both admirers and detractors. In the Philippines, INC’s well known solid one vote is feared by many politicians. Every election from local to national candidates, they troop to the INC Central Office in Quezon City to pay respect and seek support from the church’s highest official now headed by Bro. Edwardo Manalo.

INC members follow and obey the doctrine on unity in everything they do including during election. It has become a very powerful political force that even the President of the country has to pay homage to the INC leader. INC’s block voting is desperately being sought by all politicians especially in a very tight contest. Its swing votes can mean victory or defeat to any politician in a close fight. The 2004 election was another proof of the importance of this INC’s votes. Whether people admit it or not, INC delivered the votes to President Gloria Arroyo. It is not difficult to conclude that her a little over millions edge over her opponents could have come from at least one million registered voters of the INC. Even if we take 20% away from this figure for those who either did not vote or went to the other side, the remaining 800,000 votes for Arroyo cannot be ignored.

This coming May election is another test of INC’s inflfuence. In a tight race such as this time, INC’s solid vote might spell the difference again. So far, INC has not announced who she is supporting. Let’s wait and see.

111. GuardianAgainstEvil says:

Basically I’m not into debate, but after reading the post made on this blog. Most only looks at winning and loosing. Of course that’s what debate is. No one will truly know the truth with just words. And mind you RESPECT should be most important.

For INC members, if God is with you don’t act threatened. Just like the early Christian martyrs, they were stoned to death yet they hold on to their faith with humility not with anger, pride or hostility. HUMILITY that is.

We are just humans, and are subject to corruption by evil. They are always at work, they never tired. Even if we are a member of the most Holiest group or religion if we act in accordance with EVIL discussions between religions will go on forever. Can it just be GOOD or EVIL? Or are we just pretending to be BLIND?

These are all just IMHO.

Thanks.

112. mark andrew says:

Hi Mr. Quirino!

first i’d like let me stick to your question…. Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) logo: Christian or Masonic symbol?

if you do really research about the LOGO of INC then you also must look at the symbols inside the Roman Catholic church. I was curious about FREEMASON and that leads me to look upon symbols and logos that represents us. Sometimes it refers to a name, group, product, company, religion, individual or a fraternity. If you look inside the Manila Cathedral Floor there are images that cannot be understand by some ordinary people, you cant even stand or touch it.

But why was those symbols inside the church? Then if you come to Quezon City Memorial Museum you can see the things use by our late President Manuel L. Quezon a known FREEMASON. There was his sword laying inside a glass box that has the same symbol in the image inside the Manila Cathedral. Again why are they using the same symbol?

My comment is that Freemason are already controlling the world, they control everything around you, the way you think, the way you speak and the way you live. And there’s a lot of ways to control us by using media and religions. When I saw the symbol of INC I believe it was a MASONIC Symbol. That’s
how they convey there message you wont see it if you don’t really know what it is. If you can watch the new POPE in CNN hes sitting in a gold chair with a MASONIC Symbol of ALL-SEEING EYE behind his head.

Our great national hero Dr. Jose Rizal is a known FREEMASON that’s why Roman Catholic and Spaniards killed him. Now they are one. Even the Vatican, St. Peterburg Church has an Obelisk that use as a MASONIC Symbol of Washington Monument in the US. I hope I already made my point about that and please do some more research and stick the argument to your topic.

Thank you very much and more power!

Mark Andrew

113. mark andrew says:

Hi!

For all of us please before you join to a group or religion please check everything about them.

There can only be one TRUTH that there is a GOD but check if your leaders are for the right path!

Please check this site for more information. I’m not promoting this site but this might give you some ideas about FREEMASON thank you!

http://www.theallseeingeye.tv/Masonic_Symbolism_In_Corporate_Logos.html

http://www.theallseeingeye.tv/The_American_Dollar.html

114. seven says:

matapos kong basahin nag mga blog nyo
napatunayan ko na ang IGLESIA NI CRISTO ang tunay na
relihiyon

115. ros says:

Thank you for this very enlightening and inspiring blog. God bless you!

116. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Mark Andrew,

Here is a Wikipedia description of the Vatican obelisk:

“At the center of the ellipse stands an Egyptian obelisk of red granite, 25.5 meters tall, supported on bronze lions and surmounted by the Chigi arms in bronze, in all 41 meters to the cross on its top. ” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter%27s_Square

I don’t see anything wrong. The cross rises over the Egyptian world.

“For on this same night I will go through Egypt, striking down every first–born of the land, both man and beast, and executing judgment on all the gods of Egypt-I, the LORD!” (Ex 12:12)

The equilateral triangle is used to describe the Holy Trinity.

The sun’s rays is the used to represent Christ, the Light of the World. It is also used to signify Christ as the Sun of Justice

“For lo, the day is coming, blazing like an oven, when all the proud and all evildoers will be stubble, And the day that is coming will set them on fire, leaving them neither root nor branch, says the LORD of hosts.
20 But for you who fear my name, there will arise the sun of justice with its healing rays;…” (Mal 3:19-20)

The Catholic Church purifies cultures and makes them serve the Gospel. The Church has used Greek Philosophy, Roman administration, and Jewish Ten Commandments. The Church is the patron of scientists: the map of the moon is filled with names of Jesuit astronomers. The Church is patron of the Arts: the works of Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci are housed in Vatican. So why can’t the Church use the obelisk, the triangle, and circle to preach the Gospel?

The problem with the INC logo is that the INC has not provided its official interpretation.

117. Bro. Lou says:

There is One God, three Divine Persons… The problem with INC is that they insist in counting in addition… 1 God the Father + One God the Son + One God the Holy Spirit = 3 Gods of the Catholic Church.

The Catholics believe in Three Divine Persons in One God… 1 X 1 X 1 = 1 God.

“Then GOD said, ‘Let US make man in OUR image and likeness.” Gen. 1:26

Jesus is the ALpha and the Omega.

He was the Word that became flesh, through Him all things were made….

Not only was he the WORD, He is called “the power of God, and the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1:24)

118. I AM A MEMBER OF SIGMA UPSILON-UPSILON LAMBDA OR FRATERNAL ORDER OF KNIGHTS AND ULPHANS. AM I A MASON?

119. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Harley,

Some indicators:

1. Your group is a secret society.
2. You call yourselves masons or freemasons.
3. You were asked to spit on the cross and do other sacrileges to get promoted.

120. Alvin says:

wow, got shocked when I saw INC linked to freemasonry. anyway, why would the catholic church link INC to freemasons where in fact, they themsleves, the vatican, a global elite, member of the illuminati has been involved into numerous crimes and scandals? the catholic church is the biggest landlord in the philippine fyi yet it doesn’t pay its taxes. shame on them. recently, i just found out that the vatican bank was into a big scandal.

121. Bro Noel says:

Posted by seven on May 11, 2010 at 3:23 pm

matapos kong basahin nag mga blog nyo
napatunayan ko na ang IGLESIA NI CRISTO ang tunay na
relihiyon.

Bro Noel said:
1. Dahil binasa mo lang kasi at di mo inunawa kaya diyan ang bagsak mo sa kulto ni Manalo.
2. Dahil di ka nagbabasa ng mga history books kaya kaluluwa mo ay nalagay sa alanganin.
3. Dahil di ka nagtatanong sa Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) kong kailan at sino ang nagtayo sa INM kaya napaniwala ka na si Kristo ang nagtayo sa inyong simbahan.
4. Dahil di ka nagtatanong sa mga nakakaalam na mga kasapi ng Simbahang Katoliko ay palaging natatakpan ng panyo sa kadiliman ang iyong mga mata.

At mananatili ka diyan hanggang di mo umpisahang magsaliksik kong sino ba talaga ang totoong simbahang itinayo ni Kristo Jesus sa Jerusalem sa taong 33AD.

122. von says:

habang palapit ng palapit ang pag dating ng ating Panginoong Jesus, ang ating taga pamagitan sa Ama at tagapagligtas… maglalabasan ang mga Bulaang Propeta… mga taong ang bukang bibig ay ang DIYOS at ang katotohan daw… maraming tao ang maliligaw ng landas dulot narin ng talas ng dila at kunwaring katalinuhan ng mga bulaan… wag tayong magpapabilang sa mga maliligaw… sa mga nakakabasa nito.. kapansin pansin kung sino ang bulaang propeta na tinutukoy sa biblia… isa ka dun sa mga bulaang iyon QUIRINO M SUGON JR… gagawa ng paraan ang MAYKAPAL para sa mga diablong katulad mo…

123. Johnny Duchess says:

my friend, you have concluded quickly, too quickly to absorb anything relevant! why not delve into these matters deeply still and, as the Apostle John puts it: “… try the spirits whether they are of God…” you have tried yet not enough…

124. Shirley says:

This has been quite a late post nevertheless I’d like to react especially on posts by people who begin their belligerence all through the course of these discussions.

Does not Christian charity impel us to be moderate in our ways and actions, but also give a defense about what you believe? Many of the comments herein perhaps lack the respect supposed to be embodied by any able-minded Christian. Of course I believe there are INCs who have responded to many of Mr. Sugon’s explanations, as well as other nonbelievers… is it really that decorous to shout out loud that the owner of this blog and all Catholics are sons of demons in such vile mocking tones? Human mores dictate unto us courtesy; and if this courtesy can be upheld by atheists and the like, why can’t adherents of the many so-called “Christians” who comment on this blog assume the same disposition?

As a Catholic revert (and once who had engaged myself in these sorts of spitfires and enjoyed the spectacle of such), one thing I have realised is the lack of Christian charity in these kinds of religions who seem to even consent to such roguish behaviour of calling names and jumping to conclusions, as if they have been too confident in themselves to explain and with haughty eyes vilify any Catholic who dares answer calmly, point by point. You claim that there has not been any answer to each of a query or pointer? I appeal that such is not the case. Many of the Catholics who answer here appeal to their Church doctrines (a treasure trove in itself–what of 2000 or more years of the Apostles and Church Fathers’ legacies to appeal to!) and not to common street-logic as usually applied in many discussions. Street logic is not always required in discussing things of God inasmuch as He is a person who is infinite in Himself: the Alpha and Omega and bigger than our own finite minds. Catholic reasoning is justified by appealing to sources older than any person of today extrapolating on any of them as heresies of Arianism and the like have plagued the Church for thousands of years before us! Issues raised by modern day cults aren’t new but only revised in the guise of modern ‘theological’ schemes.

And yes before I forget: Understanding religion is not foremost a matter of raucous debates only to be held in open spaces like Plaza Miranda or what-not, and eternal religious damnation to those caught unawares of certain positions or just decline answering plainly due to a stupid but crafty question designed to bring down either represented churches’ members’ morale. On the other hand, believing in religion appeals to revelation handed down to us, Scripture included, and the writings of early Christians–they who have been witnesses Christ’s foremost witnesses. It shall be utterly banal if we debate or discuss anything without full-blown (BUT RELIABLE) sources in front of us, alongside SOUND LOGIC, therefore reasoning. Cat-calling does not help at all, therefore.

We declare that some person in the forum is unfair because he/she denies all offensive posts? Let us have adequate reasoning and understanding and place ourselves in other persons’ shoes. That’s the nature of true Christianity. We discuss because we want to be enlightened thus not provide ourselves with any occasion for pride and obstinacy even in our mere postings. These sorts of things show what our personalities (and religion) are like.

125. Wants to Be Anonymous says:

Dear Mr. Von,

Before you make any such remarks, why don’t you ask yourself

“Who is this that obscures divine plans with words of ignorance?”

After meeting several members / former members of Manalo’s Iglesia ni Cristo who are of varied moral characters — good, challenged, somewhat lost etc., I have tried to not think of Manalo’s INC (note that the qualifier Manalo’s is necessary in the context of this post and this blog) as fundamentalist (but perhaps not quite extreme as some pseudo- and quasi- Christian denominations). Having said that, let me rephrase, before you throw such words,

Are you ready to “Gird up your loins now, like a man; I will question you, and you tell me the answers!”

If you are throwing words just for the sake of throwing words, then the same can be used to describe Manalo and his kind? Admittedly, doing so (throwing words just for the sake of it) is not very Christian at all (but quite human / understandable in terms of human nature), but then again, are Manalo’s INC members Christians? What do you believe in?

“Tell me, if you have understanding.”

126. Fritz says:

Brethren in Christ,

Do good always, that’s all.

127. cath dela Pena says:

let me clear everything… jesus is the son of who was before A WORD THAT HAS BEEN MADE A FLESH….

JESUS WAS SENT BY GOD THE CREATOR
JESUS IS CHRIST WHICH MEANS HE JUST SENT BY GOD FOR A PURPOSE simple right?
don’t judge us and stop creating devil like illusions in your mind why because after creating a blog against us GOD WILL LET PROVE TO YOU WHO REALLY HE IS just wait for Lord Jesus Christ//

BECAUSE TRINITY IS JUST AN ILLUSIONS OF CATHOLICS OBISPO CREATED DURING 965 A,D OF CHRIST….

READ THE BIBLE NOT EXPLAIN IT…

128. Wants To Be Anonymous says:

Dear Cath,

please remember not to take the bible chopped up and deconstructed to serve whatever argument you need to win, Remember that the full verse is:

“And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.”

I am assuming that you are INC, am I correct? I have not met an INC theologian in the truest sense, and I don’t suppose you are one.

As for reading the Bible, that is highly commendable, and even before an argument as to which version should be read comes up, please remember that the Bible has to be read the right way. Have you ever heard of the person belonging to a quasi-Christian quasi neo aspersion group who tried to interpret the bible the way their so called pastor does, by dipping through sections and following whatever phrase he read? Well, one time he landed on that verse about Judas Iscariot and how he hanged himself…

BTW isn’t the indoctrination or whatever you call it, one way of having the INC teachings and whatever they touch upon in the bible, an explanation? you just asked not to explain it… odd

129. Seeker says:

I’m neither Catholic or INC. I like to call myself just plain Christian and a seeker.

My question to Catholics: Why are more and more Catholics leaving the Catholic Church and joining other groups?

My question to INC: The church of Christ is only found in Lamsa translation for Acts 20:28. All other translations of the Bible have Church of God. Since INC also uses other translations, does it mean other versions are wrong? Actually, INC’s use of Acts 20:28 only came at a later date (INC has good researchers). INC only used Roman 16:16 in the past.

130. Seeker says:

ALLENTOWN, Pa. – A couple secretly videotaped a Roman Catholic priest having sex with their 18-year-old daughter in the basement of their home and are now suing, saying he got her pregnant.

The lawsuit, filed Thursday, alleges that the Rev. Luis A. Bonilla Margarito carried on a sexual relationship with the teen while he was the chaplain of Reading Central Catholic High School and she was a senior there.

The girl’s parents became suspicious and installed a camera in their basement, where Bonilla and the teen were spending large amounts of time. The camera recorded the couple having sex in Nov. 2009, after she had graduated, according to the suit.

…..The above could be the answer to my first question why Catholics are leaving the church.

131. Seeker says:

To INC: The reason why your church did not support the late President Cory Aquino was because she was a woman. INC reasoned that a woman should not lead a country but a man based on the Bible. Then, why did INC support former President Gloria Arroyo.

Also, INC does not allow her members to join politics or become politicians. But why did she allow her member Rodante Marcoleta to run thrice as Congressman representing INC affiliated Alagad party list group.

132. Seeker says:

On Trinity:

To Catholics: Even a child knows how to count. 1 + 1 + 1 cannot be ONE.

To INC: Trinity can be explained this way. Get three small sticks and put fire on the three. You get three burning sticks, right? Now, put the three sticks together and what do you see? Only one burning fire.

133. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

Let us do some math. I have knowledge. If I give you everything that I know by teaching you, how much knowledge is left to me? Do I know nothing anymore? I have a heart. If I give my whole heart to my girlfriend, how many hearts do I have left? Do I become heartless?

If math fails in the mysteries of human relationships such as love and knowing, then how much more in the mysteries concerning God?

134. Seeker says:

I’m sorry but that was a ridiculous rebuttal, Mr. Sugon. A child cannot understand your point but he knows the answer to 1+1+1.

135. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

In mathematics there is also such things as infinities and they do not obey the usual rules of addition and multiplication. For example, how many even numbers are there? Infinite. How many odd numbers are there? Infinite. How many odd and even numbers are there? Infinite.

even = {0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10,……} = infinite
odd = {1, 3, 5, 7, 9, ….} = infinite
even and odd = {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ….} = infinite

infinite + infinite = infinite.

If we can hardly grasp the properties of infinite numbers, how much more the infinite wisdom and power of God? The statement 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 is too simplistic. Better is

infinite + infinite + infinite = infinite.

But even this is infinitely too simplistic to describe the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

136. Seeker says:

Let’s not complicate the issue. Please show us any verse in the bible referring to “Trinity”.

137. christian says:

May God bless you Mr. Sugon for your enlightening and BIBLE based explanations and thank you for defending our Catholic Faith! Truly end times are near since many false prophets, ministers, pastors are attacking the Church. Hoping many people seek the truth and evangalized thru forums like this.

138. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

I cannot show you any verse with the word “Trinity” in the same way as you cannot find “Felix Manalo”. Trinity is a word used to describe the dogma of Catholic Faith: “There are three Persons–Father, Son, and Holy Spirit–but one God.” The Father is true God. The Son is true God. The Holy Spirit is true God. But there is only one God. The verses in the Bible that suggest the Trinity are as follows:

“All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mt 28:19)

After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him. And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, 13 with whom I am well pleased.” (Mt 3:16-17)

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you. (2 Cor 13:13)

There is no way to prove the Dogma of the Trinity from the Bible alone. It is difficult to understand with our mortal minds this mystery. St. Augustine wrote 15 volumes just to explain the Trinity, so what can a mere reply to a comment do? Here’s a story:

St. Augustine – so the story goes – was struggling to understand the doctrine of the Trinity. So he decided to go for a walk on the beach, where he saw a little boy digging a hole in the sand with a seashell. The boy then ran off to the ocean, filling the shell, and rushed back to pour it into the hole he had made.

“What are you doing, my little man,” St. Augustine asked.

“I’m trying to put the ocean into this hole”, the boy replied.

Augustine suddenly realised that this was precisely was he was trying to do…to fit the great mysteries of God into his mind.

139. Seeker says:

At the outset, I said I’m not a member of INC. So, don’t discuss with me about Manalo. If you cannot show any verse in the Bible referring to Trinity, then that’s the end of discussion.

140. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

When God created the animals, he asked Adam to name them:

“So the LORD God formed out of the ground various wild animals and various birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each of them would be its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man.” (Gen 2:19-20)

In the Bible are many concepts and doctrines hidden and nameless. The Catholic Church, the Body of Christ who is the New Adam, gave names to all of them: Trinity, Transubstantiation, Purgatory, Sacrament, Assumption, etc. If you cannot give names, you cannot distinguish. And all of Scriptures will be a formless wasteland, an abyss covered with darkness (c.f. Gen 1:1). If you cannot distinguish, you cannot argue, because arguments require definitions. And that would be the end of the discussion.

141. Lia says:

Thank you so much Mr. Sugon for defending the Catholic Faith. God bless you. Regarding different sects who attack the Catholic Church especially the Iglesia ni Cristos we cannot enlighten them or make them come back to God’s true church which is the Catholic Church by biblical discussions and arguments leave that task to the workings of the Holy Spirit just pray to God that those people who have joined these sects and other false sects and churches be enlighten by the Holy Spirit. The advise of Saint Jose Maria Escriva on a man whose mother is a Lutheran is for the man to make a devotion to Mama Mary in order to get his mother to the Catholic faith, that is also praying the Holy Rosary for the intention of their enlightenment and coming back to the true Church. Regarding the priest who has sexual relationship with a teenage girl; Catholic priests are no. 1 in the list of the devil to attack because they are the prime means in which a person can go to heaven or be cleanse of their sins because of the Sacraments that only the priests can perform. Let us therefore pray for the priests always that God guide and strengthen them in their Ministry and may God make them Holy. If a parish priest fails in His Ministry it is said that its because His parishioners are not praying for Him. The failure of a priest is more the failure of his parishioners. In the writings of Catalina Rivas whom Lord Jesus is appearing and is approved by the Church and can be read at http://www.greatcrusade.org; Lord Jesus has made a very beautiful and great promise to those who will pray for His priests that is remission from all sins and going straight to heaven on their last breathe. That’s how much Lord Jesus loves the priest!

142. Lia says:

I have read some of your writings and blogs Mr. Sugon thank you so much for all you are doing for the Catholic Church and for all people of God. God bless you always

143. Seeker says:

I can only distinguish between right and wrong, true or false. If you are an expert of the Bible and very familiar with Christian history, then you need to admit that many of the names given like Trinity and purgatory were invented mostly from the Catholic teachings.

144. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

Finding a word to describe a reality is not the same as inventing the “reality”. A primitive man calling an airplane an “iron-bird” does not mean that he invented the airplane. He only described the airplane by giving it a word for it. In the same way, the reality associated with the words Trinity and Purgatory already existed before these words were made–or “invented” if you wish. We can change the words to “Unitrinity” or “Final-Cleansing”, but we must be clear on the precise meaning of these words. If they correspond to the definition of an old word, then we better use the old word. A new name corresponds to a new reality as can be seen from the change of names of Abram to Abraham, Simon to Peter, and Saul to Paul. In the history of the Catholic Church, the Church invents new words when a heretic comes along questioning the teaching of the church that was handed down from the Apostles. For example, when Arius questions the divinity of Christ and refers to Christ as mere man, the Church invented the word “Consubstantial” to describe the precise relationship of Christ to the Father. These new words are meant to clarify the truth of the Catholic Faith and distinguish it from the teachings of the heretics such as Arius. Thus, the question should not be whether the words Trinity and Purgatory are in the Bible, but rather whether the meanings attached to these words are suggested in the Bible.

145. Seeker says:

So it all comes down to interpretation. Are you sure you have the correct interpretations?

146. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

The better question is: “Who has the divine authority to interpret scriptures?” Not everyone can interpret the Philippine Constitution to his own fancy. In case of disagreements of interpretation between two opposing parties, the Philippines has the court of last resort who shall set the correct interpretation with finality: the Supreme Court. In a similar way, not everyone can interpret the Sacred Scriptures to his own fancy, for “there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures” (2 Pet 3:16). So who is the Supreme Court who shall interpret the Scriptures? It is the Church–“church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15). Christ said: “If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector” (Matt 3:15).

The next question to ask is: which is the true church of Christ? The true Church of Christ is the Church founded by Christ himself. Christ founded His Church on Peter or Kephas, which in Aramaic means “Rock”:

“Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (kephas) I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt 18:19)

The present pope, Benedict XVI, traces its apostolic lineage from Peter as Bishop of Rome. If your church cannot present the same apostolic succession, then the teachings of your pastors are not apostolic and do not come from Christ. Your pastors do not have the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever teaching they claim to be binding on all members of your church is not necessarily ratified in heaven.

Now it is my turn to ask: are you sure you have the correct interpretations?

147. Seeker says:

You’re entitled to your own opinion and interpretation. I did not interpret. You did…so don’t throw back the question. I said the Bible is silent about Trinity and Purgatory, but you insisted on giving your interpretation. In fact, the bible teaches that there be no private interpretation. Don’t add or subtract what is written.

148. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

I do not have my own opinions and interpretations. I only tell you what the Catholic Church teaches. But I do not know how you define “private interpretation” because the Bible only says, “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.” (2 Peter 1:20-21). I do not know how you would interpret this. But if you can say YES or NO to the following questions, I will be able to understand your definition of private interpretation:

1. When Christ read the book of Isaiah and says, “Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your very hearing ” (Lk 4:21), is he making a private interpretation?

2. When Philip explains to the Ethiopian Eunuch the meaning of the verses of Isaiah as a prophecy on Christ (Acts 8:30-39), is he making a private interpretation?

3. When the Devil quotes Scriptures– “He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you, and with their hands they will support you, lest you dash your foot against a stone” (Lk 4:10-11) to convince Christ to throw himself from the temple top, is the Devil making a private interpretation?

4. When a pastor reads the Bible and explains its meaning to his flock in a fellowship service, is he making a private interpretation?

149. Seeker says:

You only tell what the Catholic Church teaches? My God, enough of your man-made, tradition teachings of pagan origins. And tell your Catholic sex pervert priests to do what they preach and take care of the flock instead of abusing them. This way, it would save your church millions of dollars in legal settlement.

150. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

Since you did not answer the simple yes and no questions, I cannot fully understand what you mean by private interpretation. Thank you for your time.

151. Seeker says:

Discussions so sensitive and complicated in this blog cannot just be answered by yes or no. If you want to know my answer, then read this: If the Bible is silent, then it is. Problem with self-proclaimed Christians like you is that you interpret what the bible says. If there’s only One God, then there’s Only One. If there’s no Trinity or Purgatory, then there’s none. How do you feel if someone tells you you’re handsome when you’re obviously not (you’re ugly)?

152. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

Silence does not mean anything either affirmative or negative because not everything can be found in the Bible, e.g. what other teachings Jesus gave to his disciples after his Resurrection. In fact, it is written in the Bible: “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written” (Jn 21:25). Jesus also told his disciples:

“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.5 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (Jn 16:12-14)

The Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit, indeed came as Jesus promised on the Feast of the Pentecost:

“When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together. And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, 2 and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, 3 which parted and came to rest on each one of them. And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, 4 as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.” (Acts 2:3)

The Feast of the Pentecost is the birthday of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not rely on the written Scriptures alone but also on the teachings handed down by the apostles who were filled with the Holy Spirit.

153. Truth says:

TO: QUIRINO M. SUGON JR.

DID CHRIST SAID HE IS GOD? OR A MAN? CHRIST said;
(John 8:40 Ibid) but now you seek to kill me, A MAN who HAS TOLD YOU THE TRUTH THAT I HEARD FROM GOD

THE TEACHING CHRIST IS GOD INDICATES THE ANTI CHRIST TEACHING BECAUSE THEY AGAINST THE STATEMENT OF CHRIST OUR SAVIOR. CHRIST HIMSELF SAID me(I) A MAN WHO TOLD YOU THE TRU…TH THAT I HEARD FROM GOD.

GOD LOVES US AND HE WANTS US ALL TO BE SAVE. DON’T LET YOUR HEART & EYES CLOSED. THESE WAS PRESENTED TO YOU TO KNOW THE TRUTH TO SALVATION. GOD GIVEN US FREE WILL BUT HE SAID CHOOSE LIFE SO YOU MAY LIVE TO ETERNAL LIFE / HEAVEN.. TO KNOW THE TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER ALONE AND THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE.

THE FACTS THAT CHRIST IS MAN AND NOT GOD does not mean, however, that Jesus Christ is just an ordinary man like us. CHRIST IS FAR GREATER THAN ALL OF US. We do not subscribe to the belief that Christ is God-Man. He is man in nature according to His own testimony.

WHAT IS THE TRUE NATURE OF CHRIST?

CHRIST says;

(John 8:40 Ibid) but now you seek to kill me, A MAN who HAS TOLD YOU THE TRUTH THAT I HEARD FROM GOD
(John 19:28 Ibid) I AM THIRSTY

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;

(1 Timothy 2:5 Ibid) THE MAN Christ Jesus
(Acts 17:31 Ibid) A MAN (CHRIST) whom he (GOD) has appointed
(Matthew 4:2 Ibid) After fasting forty days and forty nights, he (CHRIST) WAS HUNGRY
(John 4:6 Ibid) JESUS, TIRED as he was from the journey
(Matthew 8:24 Ibid) JESUS WAS SLEEPING
(Matthew 27:50 Ibid) Once again Jesus shouted, and then he (CHRIST) DIED

IS CHRIST GOD AND BECAME MAN?

(Ezekiel 28:2) A MAN IS NOT A GOD

WHO IS THAT MAN DID GOD PROMISED TO BE A SAVIOR?

(Acts 13:23 Ibid) JESUS (CHRIST), who is God’s promised Savior of Israel

WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE CHRIST MAN AND US A MAN?

(I Peter 2:22) he (CHRIST) NEVER SINNED, nor ever deceived anyone.

WHAT GOD DID TO CHRIST?

CHRIST says;

(Matthew 28:18 Ibid) I HAVE BEEN GIVE ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH

TRUE CHRISTIAN says;

(Philippians 2:9 Ibid) GOD ELEVATED HIM (CHRIST) to the place of highest honor and gave him (Christ) the name above all other names
(Acts 2:36) So let everyone in Israel know for certain that GOD HAS MADE THIS JESUS, whom you crucified, to be BOTH LORD AND MESSIAH!”

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE MESSIAH? THE ANOINTED ONE – The anointing meant that someone was authorized TO SERVE GOD ONLY. One was given the title of “the Anointed One (CHRIST – JESUS OF NAZARETH).
(Acts 5:31 Ibid) Then GOD PUT HIM (Christ) in the place of honor at his right hand AS PRINCE AND SAVIOR

CHRIST IS GOD WHO IS IN THE RIGHT HAND OF THE TRUE GOD?

GOD says;

(Isaiah 45:5 Ibid) there is no God beside me﻿

WHAT GOD PROCLAIMED ABOUT JESUS CHRIST?

GOD says;

(Matthew 3:17 Ibid) THIS IS MY DEARLY BELOVED SON (CHRIST), who brings me great joy

WHAT CHRIST DID THAT HE BRINGS GREAT JOY TO GOD?

(Philippians 2:8 Ibid) he (CHRIST) humbled himself in obedience to God

CHRIST IS GOD BECAUSE HE IS THE SON OF GOD?

(Romans 8:14) For ALL WHO ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE SONS OF GOD
(John 1:12) But to ALL WHO DID RECEIVE HIM all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God﻿

HOW MANY AND WHO IS OUR MEDIATOR TO GOD?

CHRIST says;

(John 14:6 Ibid) I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE CAN COME TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME (CHRIST)

TRUE CHRISTIAN says;

(1 Timothy 2:5 Ibid) ONE MEDIATOR who can reconcile God and humanity—THE MAN CHRIST JESUS
(1 Peter 3:18) For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous THAT he (CHRIST) MIGHT BRING US TO GOD

DID CHRIST KNOWS WHEN HIS SECOND COMING?

(Mark 13:32) “But concerning that day or that hour, NO ONE KNOWS, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON (CHRIST), BUT ONLY THE FATHER

DID CHRIST CAN DO EVERYTHING WITHOUT GOD IN HIM?

(John 5:19 Ibid) the Son (CHRIST) can do nothing of his own accord

IS CHRIST SUBJECTED TO GOD?

(1 Corinthians 15:28) When all things are subjected to him, then THE SON (CHRIST) HIMSELF WILL ALSO BE SUBJECTED TO HIM (GOD) who put all things in subjection under him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL

IS CHRIST EQUAL TO GOD?

CHRIST says;

(John 17:24 Ibid) I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

﻿VARIOUS QUESTIONS:

(John 1:1 Ibid) In the beginning was the Word,
ANSWER: *(Acts 2:23 Ibid) the DEFINITE PLAN and FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD
*(John 17:24 Ibid Christ said) you loved me before the foundation of the world.

(John 1:1 Ibid) and the Word was with God,
ANSWER: *(John 1:14 Ibid) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us

(John 1:1 Ibid) and the Word was God.
ANSWER: *(Hebrews 1:2 Ibid) in these last days he (GOD) HAS SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON, whom he (CHRIST) APPOINTED THE HEIR OF ALL THINGS, through whom also he (GOD) created the world.
*(Acts 10:42 Ibid) he (CHRIST) is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
*(John 1:3 Ibid) All things were made through him﻿ (CHRIST)
*(Matthew 28:18 Ibid Christ said )All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me

Based on God plan men ought to be in union with Christ through the Church where Christ established which is the Church of Christ (Ephesians 1:4-5, Matthew 16:18; Acts 20:28) Christ Himself is the SAVIOR of the Church (Ephesians 5:23) and this is where God added daily those who were being saved (Acts 2:47).

154. Truth says:

TO QUIRINO M. SUGO JR.

THE ANTI CHRIST MANIPULATES PEOPLE IN VERSE JOHN 1:1 AND MANY VERSES BY GIVING THEIR OWN PERSONAL CONCLUSION THAT CHRIST IS GOD.
1. Absolutely we cannot read in the Holy Bible that God said his Son
Jesus Christ is God and God did not tell I will transform to a Man.
2. Absolutely we cannot read in the Holy Bible that True Prophets that
the Christ who will come is our God who became a man.
3. Absolutely we cannot read in the Holy Bible that Christ said I am
God.

155. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

1. Absolutely we cannot read in the Holy Bible that Christ said, “I am not God.” But Christ said he is “I am”. Christ said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM” (Jn 8:28). God’s Name which he revealed to Moses is “I am”:

“I am who I am…This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you…Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. “This is my name forever; this is my title for all generations.” (Ex 3:15).

2. Isaiah, the true Prophet, has prophesied that God, the Lord, will be visible to the eyes of the Israelites as their Teacher or Rabbi:

“Yet the LORD is waiting to show you favor, and he rises to pity you; For the LORD is a God of justice: blessed are all who wait for him! O people of Zion, who dwell in Jerusalem, no more will you weep; He will be gracious to you when you cry out, as soon as he hears he will answer you. 4 The Lord will give you the bread you need and the water for which you thirst. No longer will your Teacher hide himself, but with your own eyes you shall see your Teacher,….” (Nab Is 30:18-20)

“As [Jesus] was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? 3 No one is good but God alone.” (Mk 10:17-18)

3. God, according to the true prophet Malachi, said:

“Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; And suddenly there will come to the temple the LORD whom you seek, And the messenger of the covenant whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts.” (Mal 3:1)

Christ quoted this in Mt 11: 10 and the messenger he said refers to John the Baptist. When John’s disciples asked “Are you the one who is to come, or should we look for another?”, Christ answered them to tell John all the miracles that he wrought. For Christ is the Lord whom the Israelites seek and he sent his messenger John before him.

3. Jesus, the Son of God, calls God his Father. “For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God.” (Jn 5:18)

156. Seeker says:

Christ said “I AM”. But did He say “I AM GOD”? So much debates on Christ’s deity. It would be very easy just to admit Christ is God to avoid debates and join the mainstream. But truth is not about majority. You only have to check the history as to how and when was Christ made God. That was long after He and the Apostles have died.

157. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

God in Exodus said his name is “I AM.” Does He need to say, “I am God”? He IS. Jews have a holy fear of God’s name, so they write the unutterable YHWH. Please check your history and tell me how and when (date) you think Christ was made God, so that I would know how to answer.

158. Charlemagne Paul says:

Wow, it’s a long read but i must say, people really take things literally. that’s why a stupid man should be forbidden to read the bible. That’s why there’s a debate hundreds of years ago or so regarding the complexities and after-effects of ordinary people gaining knowledge to the word of God.

You all need to take philosophy first and open your mind just a little bit to acquire and grasp the inkling of wisdom God has put into the bible. If you want to interpret the bible as literal as that, artsee and true and others who are in between (even the INC), then you should not try to preach and include other souls in your search for your own twisted truth. You’re just confusing them leaving them to be God-less, robbing them of their chance to complete themselves.

I’m not a PhD graduate, a scientist or even a traditional catholic but I know that there’s a lot of things that the Catholic Church has done in order to manipulate people and persecute them in the past. They even kill in the name of God which is definitely wrong in every context and is unjustifiable. BUT that doesn’t mean that the Roman Catholic is WRONG! All RELIGION handled by a MAN will bound to be CORRUPTED. That’s our nature. Therefore, the Roman Catholicism’s only fault is letting bad popes to sit in the high chair. But that doesn’t mean that Jesus’s teachings are wrong, so what are we arguing about!

Taking a step back, we should realize what Jesus and God has taught us…
God told us his ten commandments. Because of our incapacities that time and our illogical ways on how we behave because we have yet to evolve our minds in understanding deep information. He gave us ten steps in order to praise his name and maintain our dignity as a human being, to avoid us to taint our souls that he created and loved so much. But times have changed and we developed our critical understanding on a lot of things. That’s when people found ways to circumnavigate on those rules in order to sin but not sin in the eyes of our peers. That’s why Jesus came down. It is to REMIND EVERYONE, even the INC and the JEWS, that EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED IF HE BELIEVES IN HIM, HIS TEACHINGS AND SUCH. And he taught us a bulletproof ideology in order for us to serve him and to guide us in respecting our souls and others.

SO WHAT IS IT?
IT IS SIMPLE.
(1) LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR SPIRIT, WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT AND ALL YOUR MIND
(2) LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE YOUR GOD.
IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT. NO ONE CAN DENY THAT BULLETPROOF LOGIC. IF YOU LOVE GOD THEN YOU LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR WHICH THEN DISABLES YOU TO WREAK HAVOC AND DESTROY OTHER PEOPLE.
THE QUESTION IS, DO YOU LOVE YOUR GOD? HUH? ARTSEE AND TRUE AND OTHERS IN BETWEEN WHO DISABLES OTHER PEOPLE IN KNOWING GOD AND CONFUSES THEM TO KNOW HE WHO CREATED US ALL. TO DRAG THEM TO HELL WITH YOU WITH ALL YOUR RIDICULOUS LOGIC.

WETHER YOU ARE A MUSLIM, A BUDHIST, OR EVEN A PAGAN AND YOU BELIEVE AND TRULY UNDERSTAND THIS PHILOSPHY, THEN YOU WILL BE SAVED. WE ARE NOT SAVED FOR THE TIMES WE GO TO CHURCH OR TO THE KNOWLEDGE WE KNOW IN VERSES IN THE BIBLE BUT WHAT WE ACT IN OUR SOCIETY, ON HOW WE ACT AS INDIVIDUALS TOWARDS OUR FELLOW MEN AND ALL AROUND, ON HOW WE TREAT OUR SOUL AND THE SOUL OF OTHERS.

STOP ASKING WETHER JESUS IS GOD OR NOT. YOUR LITTLE MINDS CANNOT COMPREHEND WITH THE ETERNAL WIDOM GOD HAS. WITH YOUR MINDS CLOSED AND READY TO PERSECUTE OTHER’S THAT ISN’T COMPLYING WITH WHAT YOU KNOW, YOU WILL NOT ULTIMATELY ACHIEVE THAT WISDOM YOU SO DESIRABLY WANT. READ THE BIBLE AGAIN AND OPEN YOU MIND. PRAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT, GOD, JESUS OR WHATEVER IT IS YOU PRAY UPON, GIVES YOU BLESSING IN UNDERSTANDING IT. AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE, YOU’LL KNOW WHAT I KNOW AND YOU WON’T EVEN HAVE TO ASK STUPID QUESTIONS.

I HAVE SEEN WHAT GOD REVEALED BUT I DO NOT PREACH IT. IN TIME YOU WILL KNOW THAT THE WISDOM GOD PROVIDED YOU IS FOR YOU ALONE AND IF HE WISHES FOR YOU TO SPREAD IT THEN THAT IS YOUR DUTY AS HIS CHILD. SO SHOVE IT WHERE IT BELONGS UNLESS HE ASKS FOR YOUR DUTY. YOU’RE ONLY ENABLING FALSE PROPHETS TO EMERGE IN THIS WORLD. AND THERE’S SO MUCH ALREADY.

AND P.S. IGLESIA NI CRISTO ONLY DEBATES IN PERSON BECAUSE THEY ARE TRAINED WORD SMITHS AND THEY WILL DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO PUSH YOU IN THE CORNER USING PSYCHOLOGICAL MANEUVERS LIKE STRENGTH IN NUMBERS AND SUCH. THEY AFRAID IN WEB DIALOGUES BECAUSE THEY ARE IN A DISADVANTAGE AND THEY CAN’T MANIPULATE YOU PSYCHOLOGICALLY.
P.P.S. WHY THE HECK DID THE COMMENTS DEVIATED FROM THE TOPIC? THE TOPIC IS IGLESIA NI CRISTO’S LOGO AND YOU’RE ALL ASKING GOOD MAN MR. QUIRINO THEOLOGICAL QUESTIONS THAT SHOULDN’T BE DISCUSED IN THIS SECTION. GO BUY A FRIEND YOU FRIENDLESS PEOPLE IF YOU WANT SOMEONE TO TALK TO. ^_^

P.P.P.S.
AT SA MGA NAGSABI NA ANG MGA KRISTYANO E MAHILIG SA MALI AT LAGING NASA MALI, YOU’RE SO WRONG. PEOPLE LIKE YOU CONFUSE PEOPLE MAKING THEM FORGET THE DOCTRINES OF JESUS. THE PREACHINGS OF JESUS ARE SOMETIMES DISREGARDED BECAUSE OF PEOPLE CHANGING AND TWISTING WHAT HE SAID. IF YOU ALL CONCENTRATE ON THOSE TWO COMMANDMENTS, NOTHING WILL MATTER. IT WILL NOT MATTER AS LONG AS YOU ARE DOING YOUR DUTY AS A HUMAN BEING, AS A SON OF GOD, AND AS A GOOD “CHRIST”-IAN.
PARANG SINASABI MO NA MALI YUNG KUMAPIT KAMI SA MGA TURO NI JESUS. WHAT THE HELL?

P.P.P.P.S.
TO THOSE WHO OFTEN QUOTE THE BIBLE AND CONDENSES IT AND INTERPRETS IT LITERALLY. MALI PO KAYO. THE BIBLE SHOULD BE READ AT LEAST AS A CHAPTER NOT AS A VERSE. VERSES ARE CREATED SO THAT THEY CAN COUNT THE WORDS AND MEASURE THE THOUGHTS AND SENCTENCES AND NOT AS A BOOKMARK FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE TO SHOVE TO PEOPLE WHENEVER YOU FEEL HAPPY ABOUT BOASTING YOUR NEW FOUND EPIPHANY IN YOUR OWN IDEA ABOUT CHRISTIANITY. YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD ABOUT YOURSELVES. YOU ONLY PROVIDE THE TOOL TO DISTRACT AND TWIST ITS TRUE WISDOM. THAT’S WHY YOU WILL NOT GET IT, THE WISDOM OF THE UNIVERSE, THE WISDOM THAT GOD WILL ENDOW.

159. Charlemagne Paul says:

AND FYI, ONLY FOUND THIS ARTICLE BECAUSE I HAVE A FRIEND IN THE INC AND I WAS ASKED TO MAKE A LOGO ,AS A FAVOR, IN THEIR LOGO CONTEST THINGY. I WAS WONDERING WHAT TO PUT IN AS A SYMBOL FOR THEIR GOD BECAUSE THEY DON’T USE THE CROSS. AND MR. QUIRINO’S COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW HELPED ME A LITTLE BIT – THANKS BY THE WAY.

WHY THE HELL ARE YOU PEOPLE ASKING HIM DIFFERENT QUESTIONS REGARDING DIFFERENT TOPICS? -STUPID QUESTIONS AT THAT IF I MIGHT ADD, QUESTIONS THAT ARE SELF EXPLANATORY.

THE QUESTION YOU SHOULD ASK YOURSELVES IS THAT IF YOU REALLY UNDERSTOOD THE BIBLE. BY THEN YOU WILL NEVER ASK QUESTIONS TO PEOPLE LIKE HIM.

YOU ONLY WANTED TO WITNESS HIM SAY THE THINGS YOU WANTED HIM TO SAY IN TERMS OF YOUR ALLEGED REALIZATION, HENCE THE LONG VOLLEYS OF QUESTIONS.

JUST GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE DUDES. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO HAVE WISDOM THEN YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING.

IT’S LIKE JESUS SAID, THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. IF YOU HAVE AN OPEN MIND THEN YOU’LL REALIZE WHAT HE MEANT BY THAT, AND BY THAT I MEAN NOT THE LITERAL MEANING… ^_^

160. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Charlemagne Paul,

1. I don’t mind if commenters veer from the topic as long as their question involve the teachings of the Catholic Church.

2. You wrote:

“(1) LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR SPIRIT, WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT AND ALL YOUR MIND
(2) LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE YOUR GOD.

“WETHER YOU ARE A MUSLIM, A BUDHIST, OR EVEN A PAGAN AND YOU BELIEVE AND TRULY UNDERSTAND THIS PHILOSPHY, THEN YOU WILL BE SAVED. WE ARE NOT SAVED FOR THE TIMES WE GO TO CHURCH OR TO THE KNOWLEDGE WE KNOW IN VERSES IN THE BIBLE BUT WHAT WE ACT IN OUR SOCIETY, ON HOW WE ACT AS INDIVIDUALS TOWARDS OUR FELLOW MEN AND ALL AROUND, ON HOW WE TREAT OUR SOUL AND THE SOUL OF OTHERS.

The problem is Muslims, Buddhists, and Pagans have different understanding of God. A ‘devout’ Muslim would kill those who do not wish to become Muslims because it is the will of their God, Allah, as commanded in the Quran; Christ commands his disciples to shake the dust off their feet (Mt 10:14) rather than to call fire from heaven to destroy the unbelieving cities (Lk 9:54). For Buddhists, you undergo a cycle of reincarnation until you reach perfection; for Christians, humans die only once and his eternal destiny (heaven or hell) depends on the choices and actions he made. For Pagans, there are many Gods and their abode is in the sky, sea, or land; for Christians, there is only one God who made all things.

Because humans do not have the same understanding of God, Christ commanded his apostles not to sit still and hope that if people follow their own views of God, there will be world peace. This is what the UN had done and we still don’t have peace. Rather, Christ commanded his apostles as follows:

“All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mt 28:19-20)

Regarding the necessity of the Church for salvation and the salvation of non-Christians, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.337 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”33 (CCC 846-848)

161. Steve B says:

Surely you see by now that making a person wrong is non-productive. It is a human trait to try to take points away from the other’s argument rather than make valid points based on the virtue of your own position. This argument, on both sides of the issue, is entirelly of the first order: make the other wrong so I might appear right.

If your position has merit, state it. Avoid ad-hominem arguments and get to the point. Quoting from documents that the other side doesn’t agree with, or believes to be false, isn’t going to get you anywhere, particularly not in so small a forum as email allows. In other words, to say that the Holy See is right because the Holy See says it is, is invalid argument. To say that the Bible is correct to a person who doesn’t believe it to be, or has a diametrically opposed interpretation of the same passages, isn’t going to win an argument. Then, referring back to an authority that isn’t recognized by the other side, compounds the problem.

What positive points can either of you make to support your position?
Do either of you have non-subjective arguments? To say that it is your belief that every good person will be saved, isn’t it. Your opinion means nothing to the other side.

Based on the subjective nature of religion, perhaps the entire argument is specious? Belief is basically a memory of something past; faith is entirelly a personal experience. You can only share this experience through your actions and person. It isn’t, never was, and never will be an intellectual assent to a set of logical arguments. The scholastics were wrong.

162. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Steve B,

It may be possible to prove the validity of the Christian religion when one talks with non-Christians using the lowest common truths held by Christians and non-Christians, e.g. natural law as expounded, for example, by the Pagan Aristotle. But this is a long and arduous process and only the most trained philosophers (e.g. scholastics like St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Albert the Great) would be able to enter into these dialogues. My quoting the teachings of the church do not prove my points in this sense because it is not a truth held in common. I do not use them as proof; rather, I proclaim them as good news to those who have not heard of them before. As Bishop Fulton Sheen said:

“There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing. ”

In the formulation of its doctrines, the Catholic Church do not concern itself with subjective feelings but on objective truths about the nature of God and the salvation of man, as revealed by Christ. The church proposes, she imposes nothing.

163. forwarded says:

I think Mr. Quirino is using a Catholic translation of the bible (NAB if im not mistaken). I checked the translations of Exodus 3:14-15 and John 8:28 in more neutral versions and it appears that Christ did not call himself “I AM” in verse 28. Take note that “I AM” (in all caps) is the NAME of God in Exodus, not “I am he” (which is but a clause consisting of two pronouns and a linking verb).

==============================================================================

EXODUS 3:14-15 KING JAMES VERSION

“And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”

JOHN 8:28 KING JAMES VERSION

“Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.”

==============================================================================

EXODUS 3:14-15 NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION

“God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’

God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.”

JOHN 8:28 NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION

“So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.”

==============================================================================

EXODUS 3:14-15 ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION

“God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.”

JOHN 8:28 ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION

So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.”

==============================================================================

EXODUS 3:14-15 NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'”

God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you ‘ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.”

JOHN 8:28 NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE

So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.”

164. artsee says:

This is not Catholic bashing but just want to share with you about the Vatican’s financial scandal again. Vatican is reported to have link to the Italian Mafia for a long time. Vatican is where the Pope of the Catholic Church is. The Pope is currently winding up his UK trip and during his trip he spent much time apologizing for the priests’ mistakes. One Catholic belief is the Pope’s infallibility but history points to several mistakes committed by the Popes one of whom was discovered to be a female and then stoned to death. Another was reportedly assassinated for investigating the scandal within the Vatican. Where does the Vatican get her money and where do all these funds go to? Well, Catholic churches around the world are required to remit the collections and donations to the Vatican.
Huge part of these is being spent on court settlement involving erring Catholic priests mostly on sex crimes. To Catholics may I pose this query: Are you in the right church being shepherd by the right preachers?

VATICAN CITY – Italian authorities seized €23 million ($30.18 million) from a Vatican bank account Tuesday and said they have begun investigating top officials of the Vatican bank in connection with a money laundering probe. The Vatican said it was “perplexed and surprised” by the investigation. Italian financial police seized the money as a precaution and prosecutors placed the Vatican bank’s director general and its chairman under investigation for alleged mistakes linked to violations of Italy’s anti-laundering laws, news reports said. 165. Truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. Frankly Speaking. You are very like an image to your thousands of idols graven images. You have eyes but cannot see, you have ears but cannot hear, you have feet & hand but cannot move, you have mouth but you cannot speak. This was about the truth to eternal life Mr. Quirino M. Sugon Jr. You only have 70-80 years in this world but God love you show the verse in the Bible in order you to be save. But you refuse it like your fathers hypocrites, the catholic priest a sinners who instruct to kill Jesus Christ. PLEASE READ ALL MR. QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT IS GOD? WHO IS GOD OF OUR JESUS CHRIST AND THE TRUE CHRISTIANS IGLESIA NI CRISTO? (John 17:1&3) Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “FATHER, the hour has come. And THIS IS THE WAY TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE TO KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD. OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST TOLD US THAT THE ETERNAL LIFE IS TO KNOW THE FATHER, THE ONLY TRUE GOD. NOW, TO WHOM YOU BELIEVE TO CHRIST OR TO THE PEOPLE WHO IS NOT THE SAVIOR AND THEIR TEACHING VIOLENTLY DIFFERENT TO CHRIST TEACHING? GOD FATHER, GOD SON & GOD HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT IN THE HOLY BIBLE AND THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO ETERNAL LIFE. LOOK THIS IS PRESENTED TO YOU TO OPEN YOUR EYES IN THE TRUTH BECAUSE GOD LOVES YOU AND GOD WANTED YOU TO BE SAVE FROM ETERNAL FIRE OR LAKE OF FIRE WE LIVE IN THIS EARTH 1-100 YEARS OLD. GOD GIVEN US ONLY TWO (2) OPTIONS. THAT IS HEAVEN (ETERNAL LIFE) right OR HELL (ETERNAL FIRE) left. God true servants already hold there assurance that they will go to heaven even they are still alive. Do you hold this strong assurance also that is written in the holy bible? IS THERE REALLY A GOD? GOD says; (Isaiah 44:8 Ibid) Do not tremble; do not be afraid. DID I NOT PROCLAIM MY PURPOSES FOR YOU LONG AGO? WHO IS THE TRUE GOD? GOD says; (Genesis 17:1) I am God Almighty (means having unlimited power) TRUE PROPHETS says; (Genesis 1:1 )In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth (Jeremiah 10:10 Ibid) But THE LORD IS THE TRUE GOD (Isaiah 40:28 Ibid) the Creator of the ends of the earth (Nehemiah 9:6 Ibid) You alone are the LORD. YOU MADE THE HEAVENS (II Kings 19:15 Ibid) You have made heaven and earth (Psalms 100:3 Ibid) HE IS GOD! It is he WHO MADE US, and we are his﻿ (Job 10:12 Ibid) You (GOD) have GRANTED me LIFE and steadfast love (Job 12:9 Ibid) For the LIFE OF EVERY LIVING THING is in his (GOD) HAND, and THE BREATH OF EVERY HUMAN BEING CHRIST says; (John 17:1&3) Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “FATHER, the hour has come. And THIS IS THE WAY TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE TO KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD (John 20:17 Ibid) I AM ASCENDING to my Father and your Father, TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.'” TRUE CHRISTIAN says; (2 Corinthians 1:3 Ibid) Blessed be the GOD and FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST (Ephesians 4:6 Ibid) ONE GOD AND FATHER IS THERE OTHER GOD BESIDE THE FATHER? GOD says; (II Corinthians 6:18 Ibid) And I will be a father to you (Psalms 89:26 Ibid) He will cry to Me, ‘YOU ARE MY FATHER, MY GOD (Isaiah 43:10 Ibid) Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me (Isaiah 44:8 Ibid) Is there any God besides me? I know not one (Isaiah 45:21 Ibid) For there is no other God but me (Isaiah 46:9 Ibid) I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. TRUE PROPHETS says; (I Kings 8:23 Ibid) there is no God like you, in heaven above or on earth beneath (II Kings 19:15 Ibid) You are the God, YOU ALONE (I Chronicles 17:20 Ibid) There is no one like you, O LORD, and there is no God but you (II Samuel 7:22 Ibid) There is no one like you, O LORD, and there is no God but you (Psalms 86:10 Ibid) YOU ALONE ARE GOD (Malachi 2:10 Ibid) Has not one God created us? ﻿TRUE CHRISTIANS says; (I Corinthians 8:6 Ibid) But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER (Ephesians 4:6) One God and Father of all﻿ (2 Thessalonians 2:16) God our Father﻿ (1 Timothy 2:5) For there is ONE GOD (Mark 12:29 Ibid) “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our GOD, the Lord IS ONE. WHAT IS THE NATURE OF THE TRUE GOD? TRUE PROPHETS says; (Isaiah 40:28 Ibid) HE WILL NOT GROW TIRED OR WEARY (Deuteronomy 10:17 Ibid) For the Lord your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords TRUE CHRISTIAN says; (John 4:24) For GOD IS SPIRIT﻿ (1 Timothy 1:17 Ibid) IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE, THE ONLY GOD (I Timothy 1:17 Ibid) THE UNSEEN ONE WHO NEVER DIES; HE ALONE IS GOD. AMEN DOES EVERYONE KNOW THE NATURE OF CHRIST? TRUE CHRISTIAN says; (Matthew 11:27 Ibid) no one KNOWS the Father (GOD) except the Son (CHRIST) AND those to WHOM the Son (CHRIST) CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIM. WHO IS THE ONLY GOOD? TRUE PROPHETS says; (Deuteronomy 32:4 Ibid) He is a faithful God who does no wrong CHRIST says; (John 14:28) I go to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I (Luke 18:19 Ibid) Why do you call me good? NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE. (Mark 10:18) Why do you call me good?”Jesus asked. “ONLY GOD IS TRULY GOOD DID GOD BECAME A MAN? GOD says; (Malachi 3:6) For I THE LORD DO NOT CHANGE; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.﻿ (Hosea 11:9 Ibid) I AM GOD AND NOT MAN TRUE PROPHETS says; (Job 33:12) But you are wrong, and I will show you why. For GOD IS GREATER THAN ANY HUMAN BEING (Job 9:32 Ibid) GOD IS NOT LIKE A MORTAL LIKE ME (Numbers 23:19 Ibid) God IS NOT A MAN, He (GOD) IS NOT A HUMAN NOR A SON OF MAN HAS MAN SEEN GOD? GOD says; (Exodus 33:20) YOU CANNOT SEE MY FACE, for man shall not see me and live.”﻿ TRUE CHRISTIAN says; (John 1:18 Ibid) NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD (I Timothy 1:17 Ibid) THE UNSEEN ONE WHO NEVER DIES; HE ALONE IS GOD. Amen. WHO KNOWS THE EXACT TIME OF CHRIST SECOND COMING? (Matthew 24:36) NO ONE KNOWS about that day or hour, NOT EVEN even the angels in heaven, nor the Son (CHRIST), but ONLY THE FATHER (GOD) 166. Seeker says: How can a blind guide other blinds? That’s Mr. Sugon. I shall be responding to his question about how and when Christ was made God. Mr. Sugon pretends he does not know the answer. 167. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Forwarded, Yes, I am using NAB. Thanks for posting other translations of John 8:28 where we see that instead of “I am” they have “I am he”: KJV, NIV, ESV, and NASB. In John 8:58, the NAB version reads: “Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.” So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area. (NAB) Notice the I AM again. The other translations you mentioned all agree on this rendering: 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (KJV) 58″I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” (NIV) 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” (NASB) 168. forwarded says: Sir, I think you didn’t get my point. Let me clarify. “I AM” in all caps is the NAME of God in Exodus, not “I am.” Christ used the words “I am” in the book of John 8:28 and 8:58. You cannot therefore use those verses to support the Catholic Church’s position that Christ called himself “I AM” or God. “I AM” was used in Exodus as a PROPER NOUN, as another name for God. The words “I am” were used by Christ in a different sense (NOT AS A NOUN) in the verses that you cited. 169. Seeker says: It’s like saying Christ is God in the verse: ” I and My Father are One”. But what the verse really means is Christ and the Father are One in accord…One in taking care of the flock”. 170. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Forwarded, I got your point. But sentences can also have different levels of meaning. The first level of meaning is that “I am” has a parallel structure to “Abraham was”, so that the parallel sentence to “before Abraham was born” is “I was born”. That is, Christ the Word or the Logos (c.f. Jn 1:1) existed before Abraham. The second level of meaning is the Catholic claim: Jesus identifies himself as “I am who I am” of Exodus. Because “I am” is God, then Jesus is God. We must also remember that the words of Christ came first before they were written down. So when Christ said, “I am”, we cannot distinguish whether the letters were written in the upper case or in the the lower case. Why do you think the Jews wanted to stone Jesus when he said, “Before Abraham was, I am?” Do you think they would to stone Him to death had He not slipped away? 171. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, Thank you for pointing out the similarity of “Before Abraham was, I am” in John 8:58 with “I and the Father are one” in John 10:30. In both cases, the Jews picked up rocks to stone Jesus after they heard what He just said. Why do you think they wish to stone Jesus. The verse “I and the Father are one” can be interpreted as simply one in accord in taking care of the sheep. This can be true, but the verses are deeper than this. But if you read the previous verses, the “oneness” is related to two parallel sentences: “No one can take them out of my hand.” (John 10:28) “no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.” (John 10:29) This requires might and power. If the Father is Almighty, Jesus is also almighty. 172. forwarded says: Sir, so to which “level of meaning” do you adhere? Are you abandoning your initial “theory” that “I AM” in Exodus and “I am” in John were used as PROPER NOUNS or ANOTHER NAME FOR GOD? For the sake of FAIRNESS, I think you should commit first to an interpretation of John 8:58 i.e. whether Christ claimed preexistence or called himself “I AM” or God. I shall only respond to your “Before Abraham was I am” question once you clear your position on this. 173. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Forwarded, I adhere to both levels of meaning. 174. forwarded says: Sir, you cannot adhere to both. Christ calling himself “I AM” or God is DIFFERENT from Christ claiming he existed before Abraham. The first interpretation necessarily excludes the second, the second necessarily excludes the first. 175. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Forwarded, I don’t see any contradiction between the two levels of meaning. If Christ is God, he existed before Abraham. The verse, “Before Abraham was, I am” recalls the words of God to Job: “Gird up your loins now, like a man; I will question you, and you tell me the answers! Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.” (Job 38:3-4) Christ’s preexistence as the Word of God and the Son of God is attested by John the Apostle: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:1-5) What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we looked upon and touched with our hands concerns the Word of life–for the life was made visible; we have seen it and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made visible to us–what we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We are writing this so that our joy may be complete. Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, 2 and in him there is no darkness at all.(1 John 1:1-3) 176. Seeker says: The much defended “Word” in John 1:1 was just a concept and does not refer to Christ. The explanation to this verse is long. 177. forwarded says: “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58 (KJV) Sir Quirino’s first interpretation — Christ called himself “I AM” which is another name for God. Sir Quirino’s second interpretation — Christ claimed he existed before Abraham. Sir Quirino’s position — both interpretations are correct. Christ called himself “I AM” which is another name for God. Christ ALSO claimed in the same verse that he existed before Abraham. ———————————————————————————————————————————- While both interpretations may be used to support the proposition Christ is God, I still maintain that they necessarily exclude each other. Take note that the words “I am” appeared only once in the said verse. If Christ called himself I AM or God, he then could not have claimed that he existed before Abraham since isang beses lang nga niya ginamit yung words na “I am.” 178. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Forwarded, There is such a thing as “double entendre”. A double entendre (French pronunciation: [dublɑ̃tɑ̃dʁə]) or adianoeta is a figure of speech in which a spoken phrase is devised to be understood in either of two ways (see Wikipedia). Christ called himself “I AM” which is another name for God. Christ ALSO claimed in the same verse that he existed before Abraham. 179. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, Since the explanatory verse is long, let us look at the first lines: “What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we looked upon and touched with our hands concerns the Word of life–for the life was made visible; we have seen it and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made visible to us.” (1 John 1:1-2) Our words are abstract things: we can hear them but not see them or touch them. But the “Word of life”, the “eternal life that was with the Father” can not only be heard but also seen and touched. This is because the Word became flesh: “And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14) The Word of God became a human being like us, so that humans like us can become adopted sons and daughters of God. 180. forwarded says: First time to hear about double entendre. Do priests even mention that in their sermons? Re the second interpretation, Christ could not have claimed that he existed before Abraham because according to the bible he is the seed of Abraham. “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) 181. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Forwarded, Christ the Son of God existed before Abraham. Christ the Son of Man existed after Abraham. The Catholic Church teaches that Christ is both the Son of God and the Son of Man, true God and true man, neither mixed nor confused. There is no contradiction here. Like you, the Jews also could not believe that Christ existed before Abraham. But when Christ told them that “before Abraham was, I am,” the Jews clearly understood that Jesus meant his words, so they tried to stone him. So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?” 23 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.” So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area. (John 8:57-59) This episode is similar to the question posed by Christ concerning David and Christ: While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus questioned them, saying, “What is your opinion about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They replied, “David’s.” He said to them, “How, then, does David, inspired by the Spirit, call him ‘lord,’ saying: ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet”‘? If David calls him ‘lord,’ how can he be his son?” No one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare to ask him any more questions. (Mt 22:41-46) Notice now that we have a paradox here: Paul claimed that Christ is of the seed of Abraham. We know that David is the descendant of Abraham and Christ is the descendant of David. But Christ pointed out that David calls the Messiah (Christ) as Lord, so Christ must be greater than David and could never be David’s son. The Catholic Church provides the resolution: Christ in his humanity is the son of Father Abraham; Christ in his divinity is the Son of the Father (God). 182. Steve says: Fully man and fully God, Christ is the Word by which creation is made. Thus He, while His human nature is of the seed of Abraham, He also precedes time itself. This cannot be intellectually accepted, but only by Faith through Grace. It must be experienced, not believed. 183. Seeker says: On another topic, the Catholic Church as usual is crying foul over the pending RH Bill in Congress. These hypocrites just don’t get it. RH Bill is Family Planning…period. It’s long overdue mainly due to these priests’ opposition to the bill causing the RP population now to reach over 90 millions. The intention of the bill is simply to control population which is very much related to poverty. It’s to avoid unwanted pregnancy not abortion like the priests claim. These priests even cite the Bible to support their argument by using the Book of Genesis. “Increase and multiply…” but they stop there. If we continue reading the verse, it states “…to subdue” which means to overcome. So, God’s teaching is very clear even in this verse; that is, parents need to plan their families. Actually, the sex perverts in the Catholic Church do benefit from RH Bill. They can freely use the contraceptive devices like condom in their illicit affairs with women thereby avoiding unwanted pregnancies. There were not contraceptives before. Why do you think we have so many mestizo and mestiza looking Filipinos today? Look at our actors and actresses many of whom have Spanish blood. Well, many are descendants of those horny Spanish friars who impregnated our poor Filipinas. 184. artsee says: The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness Is like a villain with a smiling cheek. [1596 Shakespeare Merchant of Venice i. iii. 93] 185. Truth says: MR. BLINDED MAN QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. (ARE YOU THE ANGELS OF SATAN) ? DID GOD BECAME A MAN? GOD says; (Malachi 3:6) For I THE LORD DO NOT CHANGE; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.﻿ (Hosea 11:9 Ibid) I AM GOD AND NOT MAN TRUE PROPHETS says; (Job 33:12) But you are wrong, and I will show you why. For GOD IS GREATER THAN ANY HUMAN BEING (Job 9:32 Ibid) GOD IS NOT LIKE A MORTAL LIKE ME (Numbers 23:19 Ibid) God IS NOT A MAN, He (GOD) IS NOT A HUMAN NOR A SON OF MAN 186. Truth says: MR. QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. (DO YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN SEE THE TRUTH OR REMAINS TO BE BLIND LIKE YOUR GRAVEN IMAGES AND BECAME THE ANGELS OF SATAN. (DO YOU LIKE TO BE THE ANGELS OF SATAN. HERE ARE SOME OF HIS TEACHINGS A SNAKE (SERPENT) POST THESE ALL WEBSITES IF YOU ARE NOT AN ANGELS SATAN. ARE THERE TEACHING OF SATAN? (II Thessalonians 2:9-11) One will be in accordance with the WORK OF SATAN DISPLAYED in every sort of evil that DECEIVES those who are perishing in these teaching(GOD IS CHRIST, GOD HOLY SPIRIT) (FACT 1) Catholics are taught to call their spiritual leader priest, “Father”. The Catholic member their Father of Spirit is the Catholic Priest. DOES JESUS APPROVE OF CALLING THE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH, FATHER? WHO IS THE ONLY TRUE FATHER IN SPIRIT? CHRIST says; *(Matthew 23:9) And DON’T ADDRESS ANYONE ON EARTH AS “FATHER”,’ FOR ONLY GOD IN HEAVEN IS YOUR SPIRITUAL FATHER See: Our God is the only Father in Spirit. If this CATHOLIC LEADER is not the true Father in spirit, they are FALSE and their members was deceived leading to the hell in judgment day and these are the SATAN mission to deceived and contradict to the Holy Bible where the words of God is written for men to be saved through Jesus Christ. TO WHOM CHRIST WILL BETRAYED AND WAS SENTENCE TO DIE? *(Matthew 20:18 Ibid) the Son of Man will be betrayed TO THE LEADING PRIEST AND THE TEACHERS OF RELIGIOUS LAW. THEY WILL SENTENCE him (CHRIST) TO DIE WHAT JUDAS ISCARIOT EAT WHERE THE SATAN ENTERED HIM? (John 13:27) When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, “Hurry and do what you’re going to do (FACT 4) Catholics pray repetitive words with Rosary Beads Did Jesus forbid repetitive prayer using Rosary Beads? CHRIST says; *NASB (Matthew 6:7) AND WHEN YOU ARE PRAYING, DO NOT USE MEANINGLESS REPETITION AS THE GENTILES DO,, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. *NIV (Matthew 6:7) And when you pray, do not keep on babbling LIKE PAGANS, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 187. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, Do not use ellipsis points in the quote. The full verse in Genesis says: God blessed them, saying: “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth.” (Genesis 1:28) In the rules of grammar, the pronoun “it” in “subdue it” refers to the closest noun (antecedent) that comes before the pronoun. The antecedent to the prounoun “it” is “earth” and not “fertile” or “multiply”. (See the rules of pronoun-antecedent agreement here: http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/grammar/pronante.html). To subdue to earth is to make the earth grow plants that do not naturally grow there if you just let the land be, e.g. rice fields. The word “earth” can also include “fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth.” Humans can kill fish and birds for food. To subdue the earth does not include subduing human reproductive processes as in contraception and abortion, which is a clear contradiction to the first statement, “Be fertile and multiply.” 188. forwarded says: So for Catholics there is one God composed of three persons namely God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, the God the Son being TRUE GOD and TRUE MAN… Sir, if it is not too much to ask, how does the Catholic Church reconcile its position with the fact (1) THAT THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF ONLY ONE TRUE GOD WITH NO PERSONAS; I am the LORD, and there is none else, THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me. — Isaiah 45:5 KJV See now that I, even I, am he, and THERE IS NO GOD WITH ME: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. — Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV (2) THAT APOSTLE PAUL and JESUS CHRIST REGARDED THE FATHER AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD BUT TO US THERE IS BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him. — 1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV THESE WORDS SPAKE JESUS, AND LIFTED UP HIS EYES TO HEAVEN, AND SAID, FATHER, THE HOUR IS COME; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. AND THIS IS LIFE ETERNAL, THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. — John 17:1-3 KJV (3) THAT, ACCORDING TO GOD HIMSELF, HE IS NOT MAN AND MAN IS NOT GOD; I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: FOR I AM GOD, AND NOT MAN; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. — Hosea 11:9 KJV Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; YET THOU ART A MAN, AND NOT GOD, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God. – Ezekiel 28:2 KJV (4) THAT CHRIST CURRENTLY SITS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER AS A MAN AND NOT AS ANOTHER GOD OR A GOD-MAN? Let thy hand be UPON THE MAN OF THY RIGHT HAND, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. – Psalm 80:17 189. forwarded says: Regarding pre-existence, the bible is quite categorical in saying that Christ only started to exist the moment he was born, that what existed prior to his birth was the foreknowledge or plan of God regarding the messiah. But when the fullness of the time had come, god sent forth his son, born of a woman, born under the law. — Galatians 4:4 This man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of god, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death. – Acts 2:23 Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, he has been manifested in the last times for your sakes. – I Peter 1:20 Which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his son,who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh. – Romans 1:2-3 ———————————————————————————————————————————— So what about Matthew 22:41-46? Matthew 22:41-46, if interpreted correctly, does not support pre-existence. To put things in perspective, ill quote the verses. While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus questioned them, saying, “What is your opinion about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They replied, “David’s.” He said to them, “How, then, does David, INSPIRED BY THE SPIRIT, call him ‘lord,’ saying: ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet”‘? If David calls him ‘lord,’ how can he be his son?” No one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare to ask him any more questions. — (Matthew 22:41-46) Christ at this instance was citing Psalms 110:1 wherein David, inspired by the Spirit, was able to see Jesus, after his ascent to heaven, sit at the right hand of God. David, in other words, had a vision of the future. Nakita niya ang pagupo si Jesus sa kanan ng Diyos that’s why he called Christ lord even though the latter is yet to be born. 190. artsee says: CBCP reminds Aquino about excommunication CBCP is expelling President Aquino on his stand of RH Bill ? That’s ridiculous. If the Catholic Church would be strict on her policy, then millions of Catholics will be excommunicated. Also, the President can always move to other Christian groups that are more than willing to accept him. It’s only the Catholic Church that’s yacking about the RH Bill. Other Christian groups are in favor of Family Planning. Abortion occurs if there’s also a fetus or living being in the mother’s womb. But preventing pregnancy or so called unwanted pregnancy per se is not wrong. The priests are only trying to deceive the people. What do they know about Family Planning when as unmarried men due to the stupid Celibacy Law, they never manage a family? 191. true faith says: Truth, Seeker, Forwarded, If your saying Christ is not God but a man. Then your completely blinded. for you are worshiping a man since then in your pagsambas. But your ministers are teaching worship true God. are your defying your own INC teachings? 192. Seeker says: To subdue is to overcome. When God commands people to increase and multiply, it was intended to increase population at that time when there were few people. Today, after several centuries, it has become obsolete. It’s similar to the giving of 10% still being practiced by many. It was during the time of israel. Today, Christians give according to the dictate of their hearts cheerfully. Why do you insist on increasing population when the fact is poverty is strongly related to it. Look around you…hungry families, children in the streets begging. On the other hand, these Bishops are comfortably living in their nice air-conditioned rooms attended by their good looking sacristans or church helpers. 193. Seeker says: Now here comes the usual denial: The head of the Catholic Bishop’s Conference of the Philippines (CBCP) has claimed that his statement on having President Benigno Aquino III excommunicated was taken out of context and blown out of proportion. Bishop Nereo Odchimar of Tandag, Surigao del Sur, said his interview on church-owned Radio Veritas focused on some forms of birth control that could be considered as abortion. Abortion is a ground for excommunication from the Catholic church, but the move will have to depend on other factors, he added. …If abortion is a ground for excommunication, then there would be few members left in the Catholic Church since majority who practice abortion are Catholics who even place fetus at the door of the church. 194. Forwarded says: Truth, Seeker, Forwarded, If your saying Christ is not God but a man. Then your completely blinded. for you are worshiping a man since then in your pagsambas. But your ministers are teaching worship true God. are your defying your own INC teachings? ————————————————————————————————————————————— Sir, Christ is NOT AN ORDINARY MAN. He is both savior and mediator. God also made him Lord and Christ. Please see the bible verses below. So God has brought Jesus, one of David’s descendants, to Israel to be its Savior, as he promised. — Acts 13:23 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. — I Timothy 2:5 Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. — Acts 2:36 So why do we worship Christ? Philippians 2:9-11 provides the answer. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, THAT AT THE NAME OF JESUS EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER. 195. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: True Faith, I changed your name from Forwarded to True Faith, which is what you originally used. Let us adopt a name not used by other commenters so that we know who is saying what. 196. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker and Artsee, If you wish to talk about the reproductive health bill, please post your comment on my new post: https://monkshobbit.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/noynoy-aquino-and-barack-obama-for-change-communist-america-and-contraceptive-philippines/ In this way, we don’t muddle the issue on the humanity and divinity of Christ. 197. Seeker says: Thanks. But all these fuss by the Catholic Church about RH Bill and related issues are brought about by the Catholic Church’s false teachings. 198. Seeker says: Malacanang Spokesman Lacierda said it very clearly: President Noynoy is not only the President for the Catholics but to all faiths and Filipinos. 199. Truth says: TO MR. QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. (Read and understand) WHAT MAKES YOU BELONG TO ANTI CHRIST? You said Christ is God but you cannot read it in the Bible but you make your own personal interpretation. DID CHRIST SAYS HE IS GOD OR A MAN? CHRIST said; (John 8:40 Ibid) you seek to kill me, A MAN who has told you the truth that I heard from God. WHAT GOD DID TO A MAN JESUS CHRIST THAT IGLESIA NI CRISTO WORSHIP? Holy Bible: CHRIST says; (Matthew 28:18 Ibid) I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth (John 17:2 Ibid) GOD granted CHRIST authority over all people that CHRIST might give eternal life to all those GOD have given CHRIST TRUE CHRISTIANS says; (Philippians 2:9 Ibid) GOD elevated CHRIST to the place of highest honor and gave CHRIST the name above all other names (Acts 5:31 Ibid) GOD EXALTED CHRIST to his own right hand AS PRINCE and SAVIOR that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel (Acts 2:36 Ibid) GOD has MADE this JESUS, whom you crucified, to be both LORD and MESSIAH (Acts 4:10 Ibid) Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom GOD raised from the Dead (Ephesians 1:2 Ibid) GOD raised CHRIST from the dead and seated at his GOD right hand in the heavenly place (Colossians 3:1 Ibid) CHRIST is SEATED at the RIGHT HAND OF GOD 200. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Forwarded, 1. The Bible speaks of one God in three Persons (“composed of” is not a Catholic expression of the dogma of the Trinity). Before Jesus’s ascension, he commanded his apostles: “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mt 28:19-20) Notice the singular “name” and the three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If there are three gods, then the verse could have used the plural “names”. 2. In the Old Testament, we cannot yet speak of the God-Man because the Word has not yet became flesh, i.e. Christ was not yet born. 3. The Jewish High Priest in the trial of Christ understands the full meaning of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God: Jesus is equal with God. Read carefully the text of the trial: Then the high priest said to him, “I order you to tell us under oath before the living God whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. 35 But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.'” Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! 36 What further need have we of witnesses? You have now heard the blasphemy; what is your opinion?” They said in reply, “He deserves to die!” (Nab 26:63-66) Jesus was charged with blasphemy by equating Himself with God, thereby for profaning the Name of God . If this charge were false, Jesus could have contested it and say, “Oh, sorry. You have misunderstood me. I did not claim equality with God.” Remember that Jesus was placed under oath and He can only speak the truth about His nature. It is really difficult to grasp the truth that Jesus is truly God. As St. Paul said, Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, 2 Who, 3 though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. (Phil 2:5-8) Notice that St. Paul said that Christ was in the form of God. But in His great humility, he emptied Himself, took on the form of a slave, and became a man like us. If Christ were only a man, there is no divinity in Him that he can empty out. 201. forwarded says: I am not true faith. Please read true faith’s post. He seems to be Catholic. I am not. 202. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Truth, Your definition of the AntiChrist is not supported by the texts of the Bible. This is what the Scriptures say about the AntiChrist: Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. (1 John 4:1-3) Children, it is the last hour; 9 and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; 10 if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, 11 and you all have knowledge. I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. 12 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well. Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 13 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life. I write you these things about those who would deceive you. (1 John 2:18-26) 203. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Forwarded, True Faith also tried pass himself off as “Forwarded”. Maybe it was an honest mistake and he cannot undo it. Be that as it may, Catholic or not, pretending to use another person’s name is a sin against the Second Commandment. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: 2158 God calls each one by name. Everyone’s name is sacred. The name is the icon of the person. It demands respect as a sign of the dignity of the one who bears it. 204. forwarded says: Sir your answer doesn’t seem to be responsive. I was trying to point out that Christ, by the express terms of Psalm 80:17, could not have been God because he sits in the right hand of the Father as a MAN, not as another God or a God-Man.This verse by itself debunks the Catholic Church’s doctrine re Christ’s alleged deity. “Let thy hand be UPON THE MAN OF THY RIGHT HAND, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.” – Psalm 80:17 King James Version I shall explain Phil 2:5-8 pagkatapos ng aking mga exam. I’ll be gone for a while. Salamat. 205. forwarded says: There was no mistake. I made this post in response to True Faith’s October 1st 1:53 AM comment . Please publish this under my name. —————————————————————————————————————————————- True Faith said: “If your saying Christ is not God but a man. Then your completely blinded. for you are worshiping a man since then in your pagsambas. But your ministers are teaching worship true God. are your defying your own INC teachings?” Forwarded’s response: Christ is NOT AN ORDINARY MAN. He is both savior and mediator. God also made him Lord and Christ. Please see the bible verses below. So God has brought Jesus, one of David’s descendants, to Israel to be its Savior, as he promised. — Acts 13:23 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. — I Timothy 2:5 Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. — Acts 2:36 So why do we worship Christ? Philippians 2:9-11 provides the answer. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, THAT AT THE NAME OF JESUS EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER. 206. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: True Faith and Forwarded, I am sorry, I was not able to distinguish a quote from an address. I already corrected my mistake. 207. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Forwarded, I don’t see any contradiction between the divinity and the humanity of Christ, because Christ is both true God and true man. Stephen also has the vision of Christ as Son of Man standing at the right hand of God: ‘But he, filled with the holy Spirit, looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”‘ (Acts 7:55-56) Jesus also refers himself as the Son of Man: ‘ When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.’ (Matthew 25:31-32) In His great humility, Christ refers to Himself as the Son of Man: ‘Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, 2 Who, 3 though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.’ (Phil 2:5-8) But this Son of Man is also the Son of God. As the Angel Gabriel said: “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, 11 and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:30-33) 208. Seeker says: To end all argument about the divinity of Christ, let me ask Mr. Sugon: Where is Christ right now? The answere isHe is sitting at the right hand of God. If Christ is also God, then there are two Gods sitting side by side. 209. Seeker says: Why was the question “Where is Christ right now?” deleted? 210. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, It was not deleted. Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father does not mean there are two gods. In Catholic theology, Christ is the image of the Father, yet a Person distinct from the Father. As Christ said, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” (Jn 14:9). If you try to sit beside a mirror, you will notice that there is you and your reflection, but there is only one you. In a similar way, there is only one God yet the God the Father is distinct from God the Son. Christ is present in His Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ. As Christ said to Saul, ” “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.” (Acts 9:4-5). If you persecute the members of His Church, you also persecute the Head of the Church. If you help your neighbor, it is Christ you help. As Christ said in his parable: ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ (Matt 25:40) Nothing can separate us from Christ except sin. “What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword?… For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, 9 nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, 10 nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39) 211. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Artsee, Please define what is “devout Catholic”. There are people who were baptized as Catholics, but they remain as Catholics in name only (CINO). St. Ignatius of Loyola defines it differently using 18 rules. Here is Rule 13: “13. To keep ourselves right in all things, we ought to hold fast to this principle: What I see as white, I will believe to be black if the hierarchical Church thus determines it. For we believe that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, his Spouse, there is the one same Spirit who governs and guides us for the salvation of our souls. For it is by the same Spirit and Lord of ours who gave the ten commandments that our holy Mother Church is guided and governed.” (https://monkshobbit.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/st-ignatius-of-loyola-rules-for-thinking-judging-and-feeling-with-the-church/) As Christ said to his apostles, “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Lk 10:16) 212. artsee says: Devout means very religious or devoted to religion. 213. true faith says: Seeker! Can you answer your own question “Where is Christ now?”, if your claiming his a man then we should be able to see him in your midst? in heaven? if you cannot answer try asking your ministers..and try to discern… 214. true faith says: Bro. Quirino, Id never used Forwarded nor other name to offend others. Truly Im a Catholic! and I would defend my faith as I can. I like to read your posts so I can used as reference to my response If my faith are being attacked by INCs and other cults. FYI. 215. seeker says: As Christ said to his apostles, “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Lk 10:16) …There is a sender and the one being sent. If Christ was God, how could He send Himself ? 216. seeker says: True Faith: Do you know that the Catholic Church is the longest existing Cult in the world? 217. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, Please respect people’s names, though they are just pseudonyms. Don’t call True Faith as True Feet. Name-calling is a sign of a weak argument. 218. True Faith says: Seeker, Try to understand your Minister’s teaching that the Catholic Church is the church build by Christ thru Peter which according to your teachings was blinded after the Apostles died. Are you saying what Christ had built is a cult? and a church establish in 1914 by a self proclaimed angel is the true church of Christ? Truth hurts… 219. seeker says: Sorry. I’m from Ilocos so my English accent is bad. Cheer ! This blog and discussion are indeed very interesting. 220. juan dela cruz says: AKO ANG PINTUAN SINO MAN ANG PUMASOK SA PAMAMAGITAN KO AY MALILIGTAS!!! SABI YAN NG PANGINOONG JESUS, ANG HINDI MAKAKAPASOK AY MAPAPAHAMAK AT LILIPULIN NG APOY PAGDATING NG ARAW NG PAGHUHUKOM! 221. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Juan dela cruz, Paumanhin po. Maari po sana na tayo ay sumalat sa wikang Ingles para mas marami ang makakaintindi sa ating sinasabi. Please write in English so that more people can understand what you are saying. Thanks! 222. seeker says: Mr. Sugon, you can translate it for non-Tagalog readers anyway. “Ang sino man pumasoksa pintuan sa pamamagitan ko ay maliligtas”. What if the door is locked? It’s not enough to enter…Jesus should recognize you. He knows who His flock is. 223. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, I don’t have time to translate Filipino to English. I have only enough time to delete comments. 224. seeker says: Is it because deleting is easier than translating just like it’s easy to believe that Christ is God but cannot prove it? 225. Steve says: In the Book of Daniel, The Son of Man takes on a more cosmic, eschatological tone, than merely meaning a human being: ” Daniel 7:13-14 (WEB) 13 חזה הוית בחזוי ליליא וארו עם־ענני שׁמיא כבר אנשׁ אתה הוה ועד־עתיק יומיא מטה וקדמוהי הקרבוהי׃ 14 ולה יהיב שׁלטן ויקר ומלכו וכל עממיא אמיא ולשׁניא לה יפלחון שׁלטנה שׁלטן עלם די־לא יעדה ומלכותה פ 13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man (כבר אנש [kibar ‘anash]), and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 8:16-18 16 ואשׁמע קול־אדם בין אולי ויקרא ויאמר גבריאל הבן להלז את־המראה׃ 17 ויבא אצל עמדי ובבאו נבעתי ואפלה על־פני ויאמר אלי הבן בן־אדם כי לעת־קץ החזון׃ 18 ובדברו עמי נרדמתי על־פני ארצה ויגע־בי ויעמידני על־עמדי׃ 16 I heard a man’s voice (קול–אדם) between the banks of the Ulai, which called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.” 17 So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I was frightened, and fell on my face: but he said to me, “Understand, son of man (בן–אדם) ; for the vision belongs to the time of the end.” 18 Now as he was speaking with me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face toward the ground; but he touched me, and set me upright. … ” Notice that the Son of Man is descending from heaven. Christ is wholey man and wholey God. This is the mystery of the incarnation. The salvation offered by Christ is effective because He is completely man, and possible because He is completely God. 226. juan dela cruz says: IF YOU ARE TRULY SEEKING THE WORD OF GOD AND A TRUE CHURCH. . . WHY DON’T YOU TRY TO ATTEND ON OUR CONGREGATION. IGLESIA NI CRISTO. 227. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, Newspapers and blogs have to make editorial decisions on the language that they shall use: english, tagalog, taglish, etc. As the blog owner, I decide what language is allowed in the prolonged discussions and I decide it would be English. Cenon Bibe, on the other hand, decided to use Tagalog in both his posts and comments. If commenters insist on using Tagalog, it would be better for them to go to Cenon Bibe’s blog: http://tumbukin-natin.blogspot.com/. The editorial decision in choosing English has nothing to do whatsoever in belief in Christ as God. The comparison does not hold. 228. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Juan de la Cruz, Your name is that of the greatest Spanish poet and mystic. Here is a wikipedia entry: “Saint John of the Cross (San Juan de la Cruz) (24 June 1542 – 14 December 1591), born Juan de Yepes Alvarez, was a major figure of the Counter-Reformation, a Spanish mystic, Catholic saint, Carmelite friar and priest, born at Fontiveros, Old Castile. “Saint John of the Cross was a reformer of the Carmelite Order and is considered, along with Saint Teresa of Ávila, as a founder of the Discalced Carmelites. He is also known for his writings. Both his poetry and his studies on the growth of the soul are considered the summit of mystical Spanish literature and one of the peaks of all Spanish literature. He was canonized as a saint in 1726 by Pope Benedict XIII. He is one of the thirty-three Doctors of the Church. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_the_Cross San Juan de la Cruz sought for God in the dark night of his soul–in the time of spiritual crisis. Here is a description of his poem: “Dark Night of the Soul (Spanish: La noche oscura del alma) is the title of a poem written by 16th century Spanish poet and Roman Catholic mystic Saint John of the Cross, as well as of a treatise he wrote later, commenting on the poem. Saint John of the Cross was a Carmelite priest. His poem narrates the journey of the soul from its bodily home to its union with God. The journey occurs during the night, which represents the hardships and difficulties the soul meets in detachment from the world and reaching the light of the union with the Creator. There are several steps in this night, which are related in successive stanzas. The main idea of the poem can be seen as the painful experience that people endure as they seek to grow in spiritual maturity and union with God. The poem is divided into two books that reflect the two phases of the dark night. The first is a purification of the senses. The second and more intense of the two stages is that of the purification of the spirit, which is the less common of the two. Dark Night of the Soul further describes the ten steps on the ladder of mystical love, previously described by Saint Thomas Aquinas and in part by Aristotle. The text was written while John of the Cross was imprisoned by his Carmelite brothers, who opposed his reformations to the Order. ” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul 229. xanoj_ecnef says: YOUR ORGANIZATION IS A CULT!!! WHEN THE JUDGEMENT DAY ARRIVE YOU, SORIANO AND SATAN WILL THROW TO THE LAKE OF FIRE ALONG WITH YOUR FOLLOWERS AND THE PAIN REMAINS FOREVER. 230. Eddienel says: I LOVE JOHN OF THE CROSS, HE IS ONE OF THE GREATEST MYSTICS IN THE CHURCH’S HISTORY. Seems Juan dela Cruz changed his name after knowing who Juan dela Cruz is. Xanoj_ecnef, can you show historical account that the Catholic Church is a cult? The name derived from a Greek word, meaning universal. Are you saying that the Universal Church is a cult? We have to accept that there were dark times in the history of the Church especially during the reformation at the time of Luther wherein Church’s authorities abused their powers. But then, it remained steadfast because it is founded by Christ himself upon Peter, the rock and promised that the powers of death (Satan) will not overcome it (Matthew 16:13-18). From Peter, it was passed on from generation through apostolic succession. How can you prove that the INC is the true Chrurch of Christ since it is established only on the 20th century? Does this mean that the True Church died after the first apostles of Christ? How can you explain the promise of Christ as written in Mat 16:13-18? 231. truth says: Dictionary Anti-Christ are the enemy of Christ violently contradict to Christ teaching and also to God who appoint Christ as savior that is written in the Holy Bible or Holy Scriptures in order the man of God will not be save. The Anti-Christ propagate their own teaching against or largely contradict to the Holy Bible. Pope – was called Vicar of Christ – Vicarivs Filli Dei – a latin word Replacement of Christ / Kahalili ng Anak ng Dios. The Pope started to used this title in the First Century. Remember: Did Christ resigned? Christ did not resign. (FACT 1) The Catholic Priest propagate the teaching to call them Father as Father in Spirit that’s why the catholic members Father in Spirit is their Church Leader the Catholic Priest. TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. (THE ANTI-CHRIST) DOES JESUS APPROVE OF CALLING THE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH, FATHER? WHO IS THE ONLY TRUE FATHER IN SPIRIT? HOLY BIBLE: CHRIST says; *(Matthew 23:9) And DON’T ADDRESS ANYONE ON EARTH AS “FATHER”,’ FOR ONLY GOD IN HEAVEN IS YOUR SPIRITUAL FATHER Open your eyes: The Anti Christ-contradict the teaching of Jesus Christ not to call ANYONE ON EARTH AS “FATHER”,’ FOR ONLY GOD IN HEAVEN IS YOUR SPIRITUAL FATHER . The Anti Christ propagate the teaching to call the Catholic Priest as their Father in spirit. 232. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR (THE ANTI-CHRIST) http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm (FACTS 2 and 3) The Catholic Priest did not propagate who killed Jesus Christ to whom Christ will betrayed and was sentenced to die. WHO KILLED JESUS CHRIST? WHAT ARE THEY? HOLY BIBLE: CHRIST says; *(Matthew 20:18 Ibid) the Son of Man will be betrayed TO THE LEADING PRIEST AND THE TEACHERS OF RELIGIOUS LAW. THEY WILL SENTENCE him (CHRIST) TO DIE Open your eyes: The Anti Christ did not propagate who killed Jesus Christ whom their church leaders did to deceive innocent people. 233. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR (THE ANTI-CHRIST) (FACT 4) The Catholic Priest propagate the teaching that the Catholics Mediator is the mother of Jesus, Mary statue includes (her many different names & pictures), their so called Jesus includes (his many different names & pictures), the various saints & their church leader (through sin confession) are their mediator to God. WHO IS THE ONLY MEDIATOR? HOLY BIBLE: TRUE CHRISTIANS says; *(I Timothy 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS Open your eyes: The Anti Christ contradict to the teaching of the Holy Bible that the only mediator between God and men, the MAN JESUS CHRIST. 234. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR (THE ANTI-CHRIST) (FACT 5) The Catholic Priest propagate the teaching to pray repetitive words with Rosary Beads DOES CHRIST FORBID REPETITIVE PRAYERS? HOLY BIBLE: CHRIST says; *NASB (Matthew 6:7) AND WHEN YOU ARE PRAYING, DO NOT USE MEANINGLESS REPETITION AS THE GENTILES DO, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. *NIV (Matthew 6:7 Ibid) And when you pray, do not keep on babbling LIKE PAGANS, for they think they will be heard because of their many words Open your eyes: Open your eyes: The Anti Christ contradict the teaching of the Holy Bible not to pray MEANINGLESS REPETITION LIKE PAGANS DO. 235. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR (THE ANTI-CHRIST) (FACT 6) The Catholic Priest propagate the teach teaching that the Catholic Members must worship (kneel) their graven images / idols. DOES GOD PERMIT TO WORSHIP (KNEEL) IDOLS/STATUE/GRAVEN IMAGES? HOLY BIBLE: GOD says; (Exodus 20:4-5) YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF AN IDOL (STATUE/GRAVEN IMAGES/REBOLTO), or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 YOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP (KNEEL) or serve them.” Open your eyes: The Anti God contradict to the teaching of the Holy Bible not to worship (kneel) idols/statue/graven images/rebolto. 236. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR (THE ANTI-CHRIST) http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm (FACT 9) The Catholic Priest did not propagate the teaching not every members is rightful to eat bread during the Holy Supper and eat bread every time they exercise communion. THE UN RIGHTFUL MAN DOES HAVE THE RIGHT TO EAT THE BREAD DURING THE HOLY SUPPER? HOLY BIBLE: TRUE CHRISTIANS says; *(John 13:27) When Judas Iscariote had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, “Hurry and do what you’re going to do. Open your eyes: The Anti-Christian contradict to the teaching of God not everyone is rightful to eat the Holy Supper as an example of Judas Iscariot. 237. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR (THE ANTI-CHRIST) http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm (FACT 12:1) The Catholic Priest propagate the teaching to baptize the new born baby or young children who doesn’t yet believe. CAN BABIES BE BAPTIZED HENCE THEY DON’T HAVE YET AN UNDERSTANDING AND TO EXERCISE THEIR BELIEVE? HOLY BIBLE: TRUE CHRISTIANS says; *(Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36-37) He who has BELIEVED and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 238. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR (THE ANTI-CHRIST) http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm (FACT 12:2) CAN BABIES BE BAPTIZED HENCE THEY DON’T HAVE YET AN UNDERSTANDING AND HOW TO EXERCISE REPENTANCE? HOLY BIBLE: TRUE CHRISTIANS says; (Acts 2:37-38) Peter said to them, “REPENT, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit 239. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR (THE ANTI-CHRIST) http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm (FACT 12:3) DOES CHRIST RECEIVED BAPTISM WHEN HE WAS A BABY? HOLY BIBLE: TRUE CHRISTIANS says; *(Matthew 3:16 Ibid) After being baptized, JESUS CAME UP IMMEDIATELY FROM THE WATER 240. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR (THE ANTI-CHRIST) http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm (FACT 12:4) HOW TO EXERCISE THE TRUE BAPTISM TO WHOM GOD & CHRIST ACCEPTED? HOLY BIBLE: TRUE PROPHETS says; *(Acts 8:38-39 Ibid) And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both WENT DOWN TO THE WATER, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. Open your eyes: The Anti-Christian contradict to the teaching of the Holy Bible that the one who believed will be baptize, will repent, adult and the one who baptize and those who will receive baptism went down to the water. 241. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Truth, Most of what you posted are not new. These are old questions and the Catholic Church has answered them years, decades, or centuries ago. If you want answers, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm. Or you can choose one and I shall answer it. I do not have time to answer all your comments, but I shall answer some comments that I have not heard before from you: 1. When you quoted the verse “*(Matthew 20:18 Ibid) the Son of Man will be betrayed TO THE LEADING PRIEST AND THE TEACHERS OF RELIGIOUS LAW. THEY WILL SENTENCE him (CHRIST) TO DIE”, am I right in saying that you thought this is a scriptural proof that the Pope, Bishops, and Catholic priests are the ones who betrayed Christ. Actually this verse refers to the Jewish religious leaders like Caiaphas and Annas and the Sanhedrin: “So the band of soldiers, the tribune, and the Jewish guards seized Jesus, bound him, and brought him to Annas 8 first. He was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, who was high priest that year.” (Jn 18:12-13) 2. Concerning Holy Communion, I don’t get quite exactly your point. But it is the teaching of the Catholic Church that not all who go to mass should receive Holy Communion: those in the state of mortal sin like Judas. For Catholics, after the priest consecrated the bread and wine, they become truly the Body and Blood of Christ, though they still appear as bread and wine. This is based on what St. Paul said: ‘For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, 13 and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. ‘ (1 Cor 11:23-29). 242. christian says: Seeker, juan dela cruz, truth, xanoj-ecnef, Try to answer first..(reposted fr 10.07.10) before you condemn someone an Anti-Christ. Try to understand your Minister’s teaching that the Catholic Church is the church build by Christ thru Peter which according to your teachings was blinded after the Apostles died. And your calling us a cult? Are you saying what Christ had built is a cult? and a church establish in 1914 by a self proclaimed angel is the true church of Christ? try to reflect… Satan is an angel…a man proclaimed his an angel and teaching christ is a man and his church a cult is seem similar to Satans teachings. Who’s anti Christ now? 243. true faith says: Truth, truly you dont understand our holy communion.. for in your religion you do your so called “huling hapunan” (sa umaga) once a year (because it is costly and might lessen your collection?). are you ministers trying to remember Christ once a year? didnt He say “do this in memory of Me”? try to reflect… 244. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR (The Anti-Christ) http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm Dictionary Anti-Christ are the enemy of Christ violently contradict to Christ teaching and also to God who appoint Christ as savior that is written in the Holy Bible or Holy Scriptures in order the man of God will not be save. The Anti-Christ propagate their own teaching against or largely contradict to the Holy Bible. Pope – was called Vicar of Christ – Vicarivs Filli Dei – a latin word Replacement of Christ / Kahalili ng Anak ng Dios. The Pope started to used this title in the First Century. Remember: Did Christ resigned? Christ did not resign. (FACT 1) The Catholic Priest propagate the teaching to call them Father as Father in Spirit that’s why the catholic members Father in Spirit is their Church Leader the Catholic Priest. DOES JESUS APPROVE OF CALLING THE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH, FATHER? WHO IS THE ONLY TRUE FATHER IN SPIRIT? HOLY BIBLE: CHRIST says; *(Matthew 23:9) And DON’T ADDRESS ANYONE ON EARTH AS “FATHER”,’ FOR ONLY GOD IN HEAVEN IS YOUR SPIRITUAL FATHER 245. truth says: Open your eyes: The Anti Christ-contradict the teaching of Jesus Christ not to call ANYONE ON EARTH AS “FATHER”,’ FOR ONLY GOD IN HEAVEN IS YOUR SPIRITUAL FATHER . The Anti Christ propagate the teaching to call the Catholic Priest as their Father in spirit. 246. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Truth, Christ used a figure of speech called a hyperbole to emphasize his point. If the apostles understood Christ literally, then why do they consider themselves as fathers of the believers. Read these verses carefully: “I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:14–15). John said, “My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1); “No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth” (3 John 4). Notice that Apostle John is speaking to adults yet he calls them his “children”. So what should his “children” call him? “Father” of course. 247. seeker says: Mr. Sugon, we can use Taglish here, can we? What is a Christian? Define Christian. Christian is a follower of Christ. To follow Christ is to obey His teachings. So, when Jesus acknowledges the Father as the Only One True God in John 17:1-3, then let it be. 248. checkmatepawn2 says: To all INC orporated: I think the only christian in the entire religious group that do not accept Jesus Christ as God is the INC orporated. The only purpose they identify themselves as christian is to mislead people. Do the INC orporated always say in mass media that they are the only one that are worthy in the eyes of God. That the muslims, buddhist, jews will be burned in hell for all eterniy. Truth will never get reason on this INC orporateds. It is a belief based on ignorance and useless pride. The only thing you can do is to depleted thier resources for financing thier business propaganda. Here are some INC establishment you can avoid tradingl with: Polar General merchandizing 1554 rizal ave ext caloocan city INC orporated publuc trasnportation FX taxi TVX 263 INC orporated TV personalities: Anthony Taberna TV shows: Umagang kay Ganda Radio: DZMM dos por dos To all catholics: Monitor your purchases of servoces and products. 249. seeker says: Wrong. It’s not only INC that does not accept Jesus as God. The Muslims do not too. As for Jehova’s, they don’t believe in Trinity but recognizes Jesus as the Mighty and the Father as Almighty. INC as a church or group does not engage in business; but her members do. But what’s wrong? Look at Bro. Mike Velarde who owns a Business Empire and is implicated in so many government scandals. Monte De Piedad Bank is owned by the Catholic Church. So many lands were grabbed by the Spanish Friars and until this day, these huge lands are being owned by the church without paying taxes. That’s not all, donations and collections from Catholic members are being remitted to the Vatican. 250. true faith says: Seeker, Iglesia ni Manalo not engage in business? where do sale of your pasugo go? or even your sale of copies of your song for your choir go? your contribution weekly go and in december you will be fooled to have it check in total for your offering? do you earned interest? no! but your ministers do.. isnt this a business? where do your tv stations earnings go? your school earnings go? the tax evasions from your so called housing go? Sorry but i think your wrong! 251. true faith says: Seeker, Forwarded, artsee and other Iglesia ni manalo, Try to understand your Minister’s teaching that the Catholic Church is the church build by Christ thru Peter which according to your teachings was blinded after the Apostles died. Are you saying what Christ had built is a cult? and a church establish in 1914 by a self proclaimed angel is the true church of Christ? try to reflect… Satan is an angel…a man proclaimed his an angel and teaching christ is a man and his church a cult is seem similar to Satans teachings. Who’s anti Christ now? Truth hurts… (repost fr 10.15.10) 252. seeker says: Don’t be stubborn. I’ve said I’m not a member of INC but I know a lot about the church just like I know lots about Catholic Church, Mormon and other groups. As far as I know, INC’s Pasugo magazine is not for sale. It’s to be given and distributed to members and non-members for propagation. You now question about their monetary contributions. But tell me, is there a religious group that does not have monetary contributions? INC does not accept donations from private and government agencies. INC does not engage in bingo, raffle, concert and other fund-raising activities. All the funds come from members. Members give because it’s what God commands. And everyone gives including the Minister and his family. Have you seen a Priest or Pastor giving his own contribution? God commands all the give without exception. Where do the money go? Look at all those huge and beautiful chapels around you. Those were built and paid for in CASH. No loan, no mortgage. Compare it to other churches who are going bankrupt and have to sell their properties. INC even buys Protestant chapels abroad. Why INC has so much money can be explained in this simple statement: Everyone obeys God’s command to give cheerfully proportionate to his income. If there’s one million members who give one peso or dollar each, you have one million pesos and dollars. Clear? Compare it to other churches like Catholic Church. Only few give donations. The rich and wealth’s names are even being announced during Mass and engraved on the wall or pews. What happens if these rich parishioners leave or locate to other places? Often, the poor Catholic local parish suffers financially. 253. checkmatepawn2 says: To Seeker and all INC orporated: Can you audit all the 10 percent contributions of your club members? Every single centavos? Do you know exactly how much an SM designed Spaceship of INC orporated is? How they acquired that very land where it is standing? How it is built? The process of choosing which “architect,” Engineer or developer? Do you know exactly where the entire generation of Felix Manalo Live, where they are educated? What they eat, every, single day? Do your managers so called “ministers” receive the same treatment down to single pathetic stupid person like you? “Seeker” comment Wrong. It’s not only INC that does not accept Jesus as God. The Muslims do not too. As for Jehova’s, they don’t believe in Trinity but recognizes Jesus as the Mighty and the Father as Almighty. Reply: I am not wrong I said “I think.” Which means I am not sure. Are you a muslim? do you call your God as Allah? Or do I need to remind you that all muslims will be burned in hell ofcourse courtesy of your brochures or pasugo. who cares about the jehova’s is it the relgion where you have been before the INC orporated. Like Felix Manalo which is originally a catholic, then, something else, then adventist, then an Angel? Are Angels are not supposed to do what they have been ordered at? Oh yes, I remember Satan is! “seeker” comment INC as a church or group does not engage in business; but her members do. But what’s wrong? Look at Bro. Mike Velarde who owns a Business Empire and is implicated in so many government scandals. Monte De Piedad Bank is owned by the Catholic Church. INC orporated do engage in business is called Cult. Velarde? The catholic church is just to afraid of him because he might take away a huge chunk of the catholic population specially the most desperate and poor. Yup, he is a real money maker and an asshole. So what is your point? Is their a pastoral letter that indicate “be stupid make this guy a billionaire”? Monte De Piedad Bank? Ok I really don’t know what is that Bank. Archdiocese of Manila own a percentage in Bank of the Philippines Island, you are so stupid, you will get an evidence then it has no bearing and that’s it. you can audit it. I really don’t know what it is for. Do you? guess not. Seeker? what a lame name. It is like came from a harry potter movie. Is the BOOK series is also included in the history books. you know the part that Felix Manalo became an angel. Maybe it is, because it is like magic. like… fallacy. 254. forwarded says: True faith, Even a child can easily spot the flaw in your logic… It is a fact that the Catholic Church also receives contributions from its members, that it operates its own radio/TV stations/schools in various territories around the world. Are you willing to accept that your Church is likewise a business??? And oh can you substantiate your claim of tax evasion? If not then might as well keep silent; what you’re saying is mere hearsay and has no probative value even if admitted in court. My point is we’re here to discuss doctrines in an effort to understand each others’ religion. Why resort to below the belt accusations — the earlier poster is even calling for a product boycott — if you can cite concrete bible verses?? I think we should keep our head cool and try to argue with reason. Sabi nga nila sa tagalog, walang personalan. This post equally applies to Truth who seem to be an INC member. Calling Catholics Anti-Christs/Sons of Demons is totally senseless. You’re just putting the name of our Church in a bad light. Let the bible verses that you cite do the talking. 255. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Checkmatepawn2, I hope we can present our arguments without name-calling (c.f. Mt 5:22). 256. seeker says: Thanks Mr. Sugon. When one starts name calling, he shows his inability to discuss intelligent issues. Okay, you said “I think”. Keep thinking and you still won’t be able to come to the knowledge of the truth. INC members do not 10% like most Protestant churches do (they now want to call themselves as plain Christians). That 10% contribution is already obsolete. It was practiced during the time of the Israel. In this Christian era, God commands us ALL to give cheerfully. Giving has to be coupled with faith. This command is hard to obey by most people not because they are poor but they lack faith. The Bible tells us that the brethren in Macedonia were too poor but even asked that they participated in giving. That’s faith. As for auditing, INC’s book is open for scrutiny. Detractors cannot accept the fact that from a very small church she has now grown worldwide. Architects, contractors and workers are mostly members of the church. Most often, they help voluntarily. Carpenters who are members are so careful not to waste even a piece of nail. They believe that their work is for the Lord. In other countries, of course INC hire non-member contractors. But chapel maintenance and repairs are mostly done by members. This unity and brotherhood cannot be found in other groups. 257. checkmatepawn2 says: INC orporated have their guidelines. They have verses that can be used either for conversion or debates. They have strict explanation in every verse they used and it is rigid and full of loop holes. The problem is they never listened on reason alone especially the part when you put solution to confusion, a solution made thru by debate and as you said logical thinking. They do not know subject A and Subject B should both true to prove a claim. And when you use logic as the only pattern in proving them wrong they will say to you that I do not have the right to explain anything in bible because I don’t know anything in THE BOOK that contain a few thousand pages. In short, it is like talking to Japanese about peace and a day later they will make an undeclared war. The only thing you can do is to keep distance with them, join them if you’re that dumb enough, be killed by them, or boycott them. Is it really that bad to boycott them? No, sometimes hunger can make someone accomplish true enlightenment. It is all about the money. 258. checkmatepawn2 says: cont; If they are more than 50 percent of the population they will use force just to make a pointless stand, even boycott us Catholics. Do you remember the comments of other religion on RH bill, “Philippines is not a country for Catholics only.” That 85 percent (more or less) is the only reason why they don’t massacre us or make a statement in the public television that we are all going to hell. I never use name calling. It is their name. It is what their religion is and what kind of people they are. Otherwise we will be all called Bob because we can’t differentiate which person is. Know each others religion. Uh huh. INC orprated have websites, you can watch them in their sites, and there are also sites that contain the contradictions in their business statements. What on earth they need to know about us. They know our religion well enough and even the most detailed information that I even never heard about. Isn’t that funny? 259. checkmatepawn2 says: correction. they are cult not religion. that’s odd. well there is always a first in everything. 260. checkmatepawn2 says: I think religious groups are excempted in taxes. There is no argument here. Mike Velarde operates his own company, the money he earned in his exploitation of the poor is in his own decision where to make use of it. 261. forwarded says: Checkmatepawn2, 10 percent contribution? Where did you get that? We are NOT in anyway required to give 10 percent. I suggest you read II Corinthians 9:7. You’re probably not aware of that verse. I can assure you that not a single centavo is misappropriated in the construction of houses of worship.In buying land and materials, brethren who wish to have their own chapel are required to obtain at least 3 price quotes from different sellers. They are also required to submit reports with corresponding receipts of each and every expense incurred. Everything is The Church, through its OWN construction unit, personally handles the construction of the houses of worship. FYI, we don’t hire third party Architects, Engineers, and Developers. Ka Eduardo got his degree from UP. His son also graduated from UP (last year. i think). Friendly and down to Earth guy. They don’t live extravagant lives contrary to what you were insinuating. 262. checkmatepawn2 says: To “forwarded” INC orporated has its own construction firm. In this way the circulation of profits from the cult business goes in full circle within its own –chosen- members. They have an entire department for building a spaceship. Unfortunately the design of the building, all of them, has the same pattern. The reason from almost perfect cloning of design is the effectiveness of its marketing, you can easily differ it from the entire scenery exactly like what SM does. In this case, why do you need an entire department just to build a structure that look like it came from a clay dough mold? Do you even wonder why? Eduardo came from that University. Wow… The tuition fee for this university is not universal it is based on each individual family income. Do you know how much they paid? Really, he is down to earth guy. Are you always with him? The ten percent came from your friendly neighborhood Ellie Soriano. It is really interesting to see every single day how you destroy each other. It is impossible to wish or request for a spacecraft. The money did not come from nowhere. Your members did not request it. They thank the mother ship from PROVIDING them a mini spaceship. It is on your television channel. Plus it is impossible for your few members to finance the construction by just being a “cheerful giver.” No I am not aware of that verse. Am I going to die if I didn’t? It is really interesting how you use the bible as excuse guidelines for your cult business. Here are some INC establishment you can avoid tradingl with: Polar General merchandizing 1554 rizal ave ext caloocan city INC orporated publuc trasnportation FX taxi TVX 263 JEEP TYS 216 INC orporated TV personalities: Anthony Taberna TV shows: Umagang kay Ganda Radio: DZMM dos por dos To all catholics: Monitor your purchases of services and products. They are using the Flag of mexico without the eagle at the center on their stores and vehicles. 263. seeker says: “I hope we can present our arguments without name-calling (c.f. Mt 5:22).” said Mr. Sugon. Are you now denying you did not name call? With today’s technology including this blog, people are free to post and write whatever they want. So, reading websites that are anti-INC or other groups cannot be a good basis to make a point. The Bible is the Word of God. If you do not even read the Bible, then you pose baseless opinions and accusation. From the very beginning of your posts, you kept attacking and trashing INC. This blog is about Christ’s deity and the INC logo but you now touch on every single doctrine of the Church you do not even understand. If you do not use the Bible as basis for argument, then all you write is mere opinion and can become hearsay. The way you write makes me suspect that you were once INC member and was expelled. Your messages reflect the hatred and bitterness in your heart. It’s full of emotions and lacking in reasoning. A couple of things I may add: You always mention SM. SM employs many INC members. Why? Not only they are honest and hardworking, they don’t join union. Second, it’s not only media men Anthony Taberna of ABS-CBN who is INC member. If you only research further, there’s Gerry Baja and Gus Abelgas. 264. forwarded says: When I graduated from UP, the CEILING tuition fee was 300 php per unit. That was year 2008. Ka Eduardo probably graduated in the 60s or 70s when the tuition fee was much much less. Now compare that to the tuition fee other exclusive schools charge (i.e Ateneo, La Salle. etc)… A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Don’t indulge on something that you knew nothing about If you’re not aware of that verse, then I suggest you read it. You think it is impossible for members to finance the construction by just being a cheerful giver? Nothing is impossible with God. “Ako’y gagawa, at sinong pipigil?” — Isaiah 43:13 265. checkmatepawn2 says: To “seeker” or harry potter: Name calling is different from naked truth. Not smart is the same with dumb. Not true is the same with false. Cult is the same with false religion. Plus the verse (Mt 5:22) is not even related to the situation. Using non related basis to make a point is the same with being a stupid. Yup, Ellie Sorriano is supposed to be a gay, a wanted person, and have the same business cult like the one established by a mythical creature “angel” that has off springs. But still, what he saying about the foundation of INC is the truth. The only thing you need and need to do is a functional brain, comparing then differ. Uh huh. I know and I don’t care about the logo. Anyone can draw it in a piece of toilet paper and human solid waste. What is to discuss about it. It symbolize a club that it is supposed to be in the bible and the basis is not in the bible and the principles of the cult that established it is supposed to be purely in the bible which is not. What is the true meaning of the logo? A sign that indicates, we are in business. No I am not from that club. My family is not stupid. I use SM for fun. Because the Architectural design of both structures are lame. Nah. They hire INC orprateds because they do not think for themselves. They have the cult rule not to oppose the person in authority. That is why the leader of the INC orporated and all of its members are dumb and do not have balls. They are like monkeys. Oh thank you. You are so dumb. Here are some INC establishment you can avoid trading with: Polar General merchandizing 1554 rizal ave ext caloocan city INC orporated publuc transportation FX taxi TVX 263 JEEP TYS 216 INC orporated TV personalities: Gus Abelgas Gerry Baja Anthony Taberna TV shows: Umagang kay Ganda, SOCO Radio: DZMM dos por dos SOCO To all catholics: Monitor your purchases of services and products. They are using the Flag of mexico without the eagle at the center on their stores and vehicles. Sometimes they have their Sticker of NET 25. 266. Truth says: Who says INC is not engaged in business? Amalgamated Corp, a supplier of LTO driving license, is owned by the brother of former SC Justice Cuevas. New Era University and New Era General Hospital are also owned by INC. 267. checkmatepawn2 says: To forwarded: Right, maybe the 300 peso per unit ceiling is the ceiling for poorest? So you are either that poor, pretending to be poor or your not from UP. The UP website said you only need to pay half of other “exclusive” university required. Is it easier to say that rather that saying a price ceiling per unit? Are you really from UP? Less does not mean cheap. Another thing is, he did not go to UP because of the tution fee, he just want to make a statement. But still, philosophy in UP, uh huh? He is always welcome in La Salle… or… Ateneo….. Wait.., he can’t…, even if he wanted too. Yup, before. then I read it then what’s next? It is only one sentence. Are you going to patch it with another verse which is not related. Remember Subject A (Corinthians 9:7) and B (Isaiah 43:13) is supposed to be correct or at least related to make a point true. Oh. Subject A is not related to the discussion before. so your wrong. Subject B is not related to Subject A so your wrong again. Are you really from UP. Well you don’t have to expect much were Marcos came from anyway. Subject A-1 .. Cheerfull giver .from Corinthians 9:7 Subject B-1… Ako’y gagawa, at sinong pipigil .Isaiah 43:13 tagalog version Oh… do I need to remind you, Mr. “Knowledgeable,” that we need to use english as a common language. Of course, you can’t, because the translation in tagalog (Isaiah 43:13) has more impact on what YOUR interest is pertaining rather than the english version. Subject A-1 and Subject B-1 is different. God is not the cheerful giver and the theme has nothing to do with anything. Unless your pertaining that God himself built every single spaceship and not the Department of INC orporated construction? Well, if that the case I rather be an INC oporated also, and I will give my 100 percent salary to…. wait, its not God, It’s a huge wallet of –chosen-3-quotas-contractors-INC orporated. You should have gotten to la salle or ateneo or UST but your stuck in UP being an exhibitionist, being stupid and being INC orporated which makes you a triple minority. To forwarded and “Seeker” If your going to make a comment again. Make it sure that is somewhat closer to the previous topic. About the construction, the tax,banks, the lands, mike velarde. You lost it. Did you. Don’t you think so. The spaceship ended up with God as a construction worker Tax. Is not an Issue unless you are MIke Velarde. The lands. If this is true then we don’t need to have Sy Financed the church besides MOA. Mike Velarde. If you want him he’s yours. 268. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Let us all restrict our comments to theological questions and answers. Questions on construction, business, and taxes–important though they be–should be taken up in another blog (a new blog can be started). Monk’s Hobbit is not a forum regarding these things, so some comments may be edited or deleted. Thank you. 269. forwarded says: Checkmatepawn2, Are you really Catholic? Why do you keep on mentioning Eli Soriano’s name? I checked seeker’s previous posts and none of them is about Eli Soriano or the ADD. Anyway, the poorest students who have availed of STFAP (Student Financial Assistance Program) DO NOT PAY TUITION FEES. Not everything is on the website. Go to the Office of University Registrar if you want to know more. 270. artsee says: As owner and moderator of this Blog, you allowed the guy to attack INC with his baseless and unfounded comments about the church’s construction and business. It’s been going on but you chose to look the other way because that’s what you wanted to happen. 271. forwarded says: “Subject A-1 and Subject B-1 is different. God is not the cheerful giver and the theme has nothing to do with anything. Unless your pertaining that God himself built every single spaceship and not the Department of INC orporated construction? Well, if that the case I rather be an INC oporated also, and I will give my 100 percent salary to…. wait, its not God, It’s a huge wallet of –chosen-3-quotas-contractors-INC orporated. You should have gotten to la salle or ateneo or UST but your stuck in UP being an exhibitionist, being stupid and being INC orporated which makes you a triple minority.” —————————————————————————————————————————————– Checkmatepawn2, The re-emergence of the INC in the Philippines is the work of God. This explains why the Church, comprised mostly of poor members, was able to build houses of worship all over the Philippines and even in other countries. What you called an “impossible” feat in your earlier post was proven to be doable through God’s help. Isaiah 43:13 , which reads “I will work, and who shall let it?” in English, is certainly not irrelevant or impertinent if you only understood what I meant. 3 quota contractors? Did that come from Eli Soriano again? To accuse is one thing, to prove the accusation is another. Baseless accusations, I repeat, have no probative value and do not prove ones point. As to who between us is stupid, I say Res Ipsa Loquitur. Our posts speak for ourselves. The blog readers certainly know who is the real fool. 272. artsee says: Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on May 29, 2010 at 5:15 pm Harley, Some indicators: 1. Your group is a secret society. 2. You call yourselves masons or freemasons. 3. You were asked to spit on the cross and do other sacrileges to get promoted. ***The above post was false and misleading. The group is not actually a secret society but a group with secrets. It’s open and transparent to everyone. They call themselves Freemasons only if asked or asked to identify themselves. Otherwise, they don’t usually go out and openly display. And worst, they, Masons don’t split on the cross. Where did you get this info and stupid idea? Freemason accepts all religions. During the lodge meeting, religion and politics are not allowed to be discussed. Please check your source before posting such ridiculous and wrong information. 273. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Artsee, As blog owner and moderator, I try to exercise patience as much as possible. I allow people to post their comments unedited as much as possible, for God also makes the sun rise and the rain pour both for the just and the unjust (c.f. Mt 5:45). As the Desiderata says, let us “listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant, for they too have their story.” But at a certain point, I have to call a point of order. Rules and laws are formally made only when they are broken, in the same way as Church dogmas and doctrines are only formulated precisely when they are questioned. 274. seeker says: Detractors try to emulate INC be it when it comes to brotherhood, unity or Thanksgiving but unsuccessful. INC is now the envy of many people including her enemies. This is a fact very hard to dispute. 275. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. (THE ANTI-CHRIST) TO WHOM TEACHING THAT PRIEST & NUNS FORBIDDEN TO MARRIED? HOLY BIBLE: True Christians says; (I timothy 4:1-3 Ibid) taught by demons 276. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Truth, The Catholic Church does not forbid marriage, because one of its Sacraments is Marriage or Matrimony. Celibacy is not a doctrine but a disciplinary rule for priests in the Latin-Rite (Roman) Catholic Church; in Byzantine-Rite Catholic Church, married priests are the norm, but bishops are normally unmarried. (There are many rites in the Catholic Church–Byzantine, Alexandrian, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite, Chaldean, Syro-Malabar, etc.–all differing in historical development but all in communion with the bishop of Rome, the Pope. ). St. Paul himself encourages celibacy: “To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion” (1 Cor 7:8-9). The Roman Catholic Church wishes its priests not to marry so that they can follow Christ more closely by renouncing marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven: [His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, 8 but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.” (Mt 19:11-12) What Paul refers to in the teaching of demons which forbid marriage are those of the gnostic sects like Manichaeans who thinks that matter is evil and spirit is good: “In these things the ancient heretics went to the extreme. The Ebionites made poverty the condition of salvation. The Gnostics were divided between the two excesses of absolute self-denial and unbridled self-indulgence. The Marcionites, Carpocratians, Prodicians, false Basilidians, and Manichaeans objected to individual property, from hatred to the material world; and Epiphanes, in a book “on Justice” about 125, defined virtue as a community with equality, and advocated the community of goods and women. The more earnest of these heretics entirely prohibited marriage and procreation as a diabolical work, as in the case of Saturninus, Marcion, and the Encratites; while other Gnostic sects substituted for it the most shameless promiscuous intercourse, as in Carpocrates, Epiphanes, and the Nicolaitans.” http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xi.ii.html 277. seeker says: Celibacy was at first an option but later made into law by the Catholic Church. Double check your source and history. 278. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, Celibacy remains the ideal proposed by Christ to His apostles even if it is an option in the first centuries of Christianity. More and more people embraced this ideal in obedience to Christ, so that this ideal slowly became part of Roman Catholic church’s discipline and has blossomed into the celibate orders of monks, nuns, brothers, and priests with their vows of chastity. But the important issue remains: After I presented my explanation to “Truth”, do you still agree with him that celibacy of priests in the Catholic Church is a teaching of demons? 279. truth says: Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on October 30, 2010 at 11:20 am The Catholic Church does not forbid marriage, because one of its Sacraments is Marriage or Matrimony. The Roman Catholic Church wishes its priests not to marry so that they can follow Christ more closely by renouncing marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. (THE ANTI-CHRIST) Your statement above is exactly the same how your FATHER SATAN deceived Adam & Eve. 280. truth says: TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. (THE ANTI-CHRIST) WHO BUILD MARRIAGE? HOLY BIBLE: True Prophets says; (Genesis 2:24) For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh HOLY BIBLE: True Christians says; (Matthew 19:5) & (Ephesians 5:31) For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh WHAT KIND OF A WOMAN THE PRIEST SHOULD MARRY? HOLY BIBLE: God says; (Levitico 21:10, 13-14 Ibid) 10 The high priest 13 The woman he marries must be a virgin. 14 He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people DOES ANYONE WHO MARRIES COMMIT SIN? HOLY BIBLE: True Christians says; (I Corinthians 7:28 Ibid) But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned 281. checkmatepawn2 says: To forwarded: Your comment: Are you really Catholic? Reply Yes. I am not stupid or ADD or INC orporated. Your comment: Why do you keep on mentioning Eli Soriano’s name? I checked seeker’s previous posts and none of them is about Eli Soriano or the ADD. Reply Why do I kept saying his name. The reason is. It is the only site that contains the details, the evidence, that show the INC orporated is a cult. 282. seeker says: How credible is ADD? Most of its teachings and doctrine were copied from INC. It’s no wonder because many of the ADD members are expelled INC. It’s not only ADD that has site that contains detailed attacks on INC. Many other sites like this one. It used the INC Logo connecting it to Freemasonry to trigger discussions like this. At the end of the day, it’s not attacking about a particular church or religion much more the members. It’s about exposing the false teachings. 283. artsee says: This Blog has been quiet for a while… 284. seeker says: To resurrect this Blog and keep the ball rolling, here’s one that should have been posted last so called “All Saints Day”: Catholic teachings are UNBIBLICAL THE TRUTH ABOUT THE DEAD, WHERE ARE THEY? 1. Man is compose of BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT (1Thessalonians 5:23) 2. When a person died, the dust or BODY returns to earth and the SPIRIT returns to God (Ecclesiastes. 12:7) 3. The soul cleaveth to the dust or BODY (Psalm 119:25) 4. The dead shall not visit his house anymore (Job:9,10) 5. The dead shall not rise till the heavens are no more (Job 14:12,13) 6. The heavens shall pass away on the day of the Lord or on Judgment day (2Peter 3:10) 7. The dead in Christ (in his Church) shall rise first (1Thessalonians. 4:16) 8. Even the Apostles are still dead in the grave waiting for the return of Jesus (John 14:2,3) 9. Even a holy man like Kind David did not ascend to heaven and is still in his grave (Acts 2:29,34, Psalm 86:2) 10. Prayer of the living will not benefit the dead because the Bible says the dead have no more portion for anything done under the sun (Ecclesiastes. 9:5,6) 11. PURGATORY is no where to be found in the Bible. GOOGLE “BibleGateway” for different translations of the Bible and search for the word “PURGATORY”. It’s not there. 285. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Hi, Sorry, I was out for a week in Egypt for a space weather conference. I could not access internet there because I don’t have a laptop. I was able to visit a Coptic Monastery in Mar Girgis that was built near the underground room where Jesus, Mary, and Joseph stayed when they fled to Egypt during the reign of King Herod. Girgis is the arabic name of St. George (Georgius) the Dragon Slayer. I shall post more on my travel in Egypt soon. 286. artsee says: What do you think about the Great Pyramid? Was it possible to be built by men without using heavy equipment? Or the theory about aliens from another planet built or helped build it? Many discoveries from past and present point to the possibilities of this earth being visited by advanced civilization thousands and millions of years ago. These scientific findings run counter with biblical writings about Adam and Eve and other scriptures. And I have one question that even the most devoted believer fails to answer: Why do we have tail bones? Did we have tails in the past? Is that proof of human evolution? Did we come from apes then? So, Adam and Eve were apes. 287. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Artsee, I think you have read Zechariah Sitchin. My opinion about the Great Pyramid is that they were built by men like us. If we have geniuses like Einstein in our generation, there should also be geniuses like Einstein who engineered the construction of the Egyptian pyramids. Concerning evolution, it is only a theory. Nobody has lived for millions of years to see evolution in action. Tail bones do not prove anything. Similarities can simply mean they were made using similar templates. The Catholic Church does not say about the correctness of evolution theories. But what it can only surely say is that all human beings come from a primordial pair of humans: Adam and Eve. There can never be many Adams and Eves. There is only one pair. Pope Pius XII, in his encyclical Humani Generis, wrote: 36. For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter – for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.[11] Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question. 37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12] 288. artsee says: If Adam and Eve were our first parents, then the early people already committed incest. Are you saying Cain and Abel had sex with Eve? What’s the purpose of having tail bone if not for tail? 289. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Artsee, I did not say that Cain and Abel had sex with Eve. Scientists called something a tailbone because they thought a tail should be attached to it. People called a meteor a “falling star” because they thought a star has fallen from the heavens. We name things according to what we perceive them to be or what we think they are for. Naming may reflect the essence of a thing, but does not confer essence to the thing. 290. Steve Brettell says: You know, the details of the creation story are not what’s important. This is emphasised in the Vatican statement about evolution. The important message in Genesis is that there is a Creator, the he created the world by his word, and that he cares for his creation. The very fact that there are two different creation stories in Gen. 1 and Gen 2 point out that the details are not the point of the story. Later, in the Gospel of John, this theme is essential to the eternal story of our salvation. Don’t get caught up in story. Get caught up in the meaning of them. 291. artsee says: You did not say Cain and Abel had sex with Eve but by saying Adam and Eve were our first parents meant that. How did they propagate if not to have sex with one another which is called “incest”? It’s not only scientists who believe that humans have tail bones but the doctors. The fact is that we have tail bones. It’s not there for no purpose at all. 292. seeker says: Many of you by now have heard the Pope said about condom. He said condom can be used and are justified in some cases like HIV. The Pope’s position is a complete reversal of what he declared that condom was not the cure for HIV. Coming from the Pope himself of this new position has shocked many Catholics. Yet, there never was so called “Infallibility of Pope”. History could attest how the Popes and the Catholic church leaders changed the Catholic teachings and doctrines like changing one’s clothes. Currently, the Philippines is debating on the RH Bill. What do these hypocrites of the Catholic Church, the Bishops say now about the Pope’s announcement? Disobey, ignore and oppose the Pope’s position? Opposing the Pope is tantamount to opposing Christ since the Pope represents Christ. It’s a big blow to the Catholic Church. But then, such flip flopping position is nothing new. Let’s wait and listen to what Catholic apologists would say this time. What do you say, Mr. Sugon? 293. seeker says: I tried to figure out why the Pope now made a turn around and declared that condom can be used in some cases. Maybe the Pope was speaking from experience. Contrary to what people think that the Catholic leaders and priests are disappointed with the Pope’s new position, there are many priests who are silently rejoicing over it. Why? Because they can now freely use condom in their illicit sexual relationship with parishioners without any guilt of sin. This now prevents them from acquiring HIV which the Pope was concerned about. 294. seeker says: Hmmm…Mr. Sugon is still researching and thinking how to respond to the above. He’s as confused as the Pope and other Catholics. 295. seeker says: Mr. Sugon is into a deep sleep. Please wake up and say something. 296. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, Sorry, I was busy this week. Concerning the Pope’s remarks about condoms, this is what he actually said: Pope Benedict said: “There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection. That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality.” Catholic teaching says that homosexual acts are sinful and that contraception (use of condoms) in married life is also sinful. The pope’s remarks cover the first case and not the second. If one is living in the darkness of sin (homosexual acts), then a little ray of light in the conscience is a good thing. In the case of the pope’s remark, this ray of light is the recognition that the person may infect his partner with HIV, so he uses condoms to mitigate the possibility. Whether condoms are effective or not is beside the point. The point is that the male prostitute awakens his moral reasoning which was dulled by sin. He realizes that “not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants.” By doing this, there is a possibility that he may walk back towards the light of truth–the process called conversion. In any case, Catholics distinguish between two things: opinions of the Pope as a theologian and statements of the pope when he invokes his magisterial authority. The opinions of the Pope as a theologian is not covered by the dogma of Papal Infallibility. According to Wikipedia: According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows: 1. “the Roman Pontiff” 2. “speaks ex cathedra” (“that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….”) 3. “he defines” 4. “that a doctrine concerning faith or morals” 5. “must be held by the whole Church” (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4) For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that the Church is to consider it definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following: * a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as “We declare, decree and define…”), or * an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church. The Pope’s book, “Jesus of Nazareth”, for example, is not covered by Papal Infallibility because it explicitly states the following paragraph in the Intro: “It goes without saying that this book is in no way an exercise of the magisterium, but is simply an expression of my personal search for the face of the Lord (c.f. Ps. 27:8). Everyone, then, is free to contradict me. I would only ask of my readers initial goodwill without which there can be no understanding.” You can also be sure that his off-the-cuff interviews are not covered by Papal Infallibility. 297. seeker says: The word from Rome about what the Pope really meant when he said what he said about condom use by, in his example, a “male prostitute” keeps getting more confusing by the day. What seemed like a clear explanation because of the example that condom use (to avoid contracting HIV-AIDS) was acceptable in a sex act that could not possibly result in pregnancy, hinted to by the use of a “male prostitute” in the Pope’s example has become more confusing the more explanations are given. Besides, why is the Pope seemingly so nonchalant about sodomy? Remember that Benedict XVI is supposed to be a conservative Pope, unlike others before him. Just a year after this Pope said that condoms could be making the AIDS crisis worse, now here he is talking about male prostitutes, using them to say that their condom use could represent a first step in assuming moral responsibility “in the intention of reducing the risk of infection.” Benedict, from his present actions, seems to be moving towards confronting Pope Paul VI’s famous 1968 encyclical “Humanae Vitae” which explicitly barred Catholics from using condoms and other artificial contraception. Pressure to lift that ban has grown with the spread of the HIV virus, which has infected some 60 million people worldwide and led to 25 million AIDS-related deaths over three decades. Benedict did not address such cases in his interview, and he even reaffirmed Church teaching against artificial contraception. But he said, “There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility.” Asked if that meant that the Church wasn’t opposed in principle to condoms, the Pope replied: The Church “of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but in this or that case, there can be nonetheless in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality.” The Holy See’s chief spokesperson, the Rev. Federico Lombardi says: “I personally asked the Pope if there was a serious, important problem in the choice of the masculine over the feminine. He told me no. The problem is this: … It’s the first step of taking responsibility, of taking into consideration the risk of the life of another with whom you have a relationship.” “Whether it’s a man or woman or a transsexual,” Lombardi added. Benedict did not endorse the general use of condoms or change official Church teaching. But, he has angered conservative Catholics, while generating goodwill among clerics and health workers in Africa, where HIV is a real problem. “We’re in a new world,” said the Rev. Jon Fuller, a Jesuit priest and a physician at the Center for HIV/AIDS Care and Research at Boston Medical Center. The Pope is “implicitly” saying, he said, “that you cannot anymore raise the objection that any use of the condom is an intrinsic evil.” Lombardi said he had asked Benedict if he had recognized the risk in publishing a book of interviews in a complex media landscape where his words might be “misunderstood.” “The Pope smiled,” Lombardi said. Clearly, outside the Philippines, the Catholic religion allows discussion about such things. If the Pope had been Pinoy, one wonders if the CBCP would excommunicate him. 298. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, It is only proper that you cite the source of your commentary because the words are not yours. 299. seeker says: I apologize for the quote. Just the same, we would like to hear from you. 300. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, If you have particular objections to what I wrote, please state your objections clearly, so that I would know what you wish to hear from me. 301. seeker says: Good excuse. Better than saying “out of town” or “busy”. 302. Marz says: Regarding the Constitution of the Republic, which states unequivocally under Article II Declaration of Principles and Statement Policies: “Sec. 6. The separation of Church and State shall be inviolable.” What that means is that we do not place the country under the Pope nor do we, as a nation, subscribe to any religion. Thus, whether the majority are Catholics or Islam becomes the religion of our future, there exists a ‘separation of Church and State’ which we hold to be inviolable.” Thus, in reality, who the heck cares what the Bible, the Pope, the Cardinals, the Bishops and priests say? This applies even if all Pinoys were of just one religion. What we do as a nation is not what any religion wants for us to blindly follow but what is good for us as a country and as a people. While it is probably suicide for politicos to anger the Padre Damasos in our Church, the fact of the matter is that this is what our Constitutions have always held and the principle has always been in all our Constitutions from the first in the Malolos Congress to the present Cory Constitution. The principle that we have to go by is not what the majority want but how our laws affect those in the minority – those of other religions or other Christian faiths. For instance, a law that makes the use of condoms illegal would not be acceptable because non-Catholics may not want the probability of impregnation with every act of coition. The bishops can forbid this among their faithful but should not have the power to do so among other Pinoys who may not want to be faithful to our bishops. That is the reality of the situation. The Reproductive Health Bill does not force condoms or pills on anyone but would provide these to those who want them for health or other reasons. Even Gloria Arroyo, who bowed to the bishops on this issue, admitted that, as a younger wife, she used pills to control the size of her family. So did my wife and I, by the way. And so did so many Pinoys who knew about these devices and used them to allow them to limit their children to have more affordable families. The sad part is that many of the poorer families cannot afford or don’t know enough to spend for these and will, therefore, have unwanted and health-threatening frequent pregnancies. This is what the RH Bill is all about. 303. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Marz, The Church and State are separable in theory (e.g.hierarchical organization) but difficult to separate in practice, because for the case of Catholics, they govern they same constituents. Catholics are taxpayers, too. Once the RH bill becomes law, Catholics become indirect supporters of an immoral bill. Philippines is a democracy, but Catholics are governed by a monarchy (Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests). So what the CBCP says regarding the RH Bill has weight. The sad part is that richer families do not wish to have more children whom they can send to the best schools and equip them with financial resources, so that they can create more businesses, strengthen our institutions, and become the leaders of our nation. This should have been the share of the richer families towards poverty eradication. The sad part is that it is the richer families who have lost hope in their children and they blame the poor for having more children. “Our children is the hope of our nation,” as our National hero, Jose Rizal, said. In them lies our hope. 304. Steve says: In practice, political change is very difficult, but not impossible. In the Philippines, the republican form of government allows for changes. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Make it clear that you want legislative change; work for candidates you agree with and be sure that they vote the way you want them to. Public relations is the key. Get advertising space, and push for your cause, or go door to door. Margaret Thatcher got elected Prime Minister of Great Britain by knocking on doors. If it is intended to work, it can be made to work. 305. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, May I know INC’s stand regarding contraception? Is contraception between married couples biblical? 306. seeker says: I’m not a member of INC, though my relatives and friends are. I was an active Catholic in the past. I was a Cursillista if you know what it means. But today, I choose to be not into an organized religion. As far as I know, INC once made known its stand on RH Bill or Family Planning which they favor. They believe and that’s also the basis of my argument that it’s not wrong per se to prevent contraception or pregnancy. It is only when there’s embryo and fetus that it’s wrong if we stop its development. It’s indeed abortion if there’s already a living fetus. 307. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Seeker, Yes, I was also a cursillista before with the Barangay sg Birhen. Cursillo is a spanish word meaning a short course (on Theology). It was a few days seminar. But Catholic teaching cannot adequately be summed up in a few days. It is better to buy the Catechism of the Catholic Church for a few hundred pesos and read it from cover to cover. The dogmas and doctrines are stated there precisely with their scriptural basis. The footnotes cover writings of Catholic theologians and Church councils across 2,000 years of church history. If you wish to critique Catholic teaching, the CCC is the best place to start. Contraception is the prevention of the union of the sperm and egg. This is what condoms do. The other way is to spill the semen outside the vagina. This is what Onan did in the Bible and God struck him dead: “Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother’s widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.” (Gen 38:9-10) 308. seeker says: Allow me to jump. I was a Cursillista at Kristong Hari and spent those three days and nights at Cabuyao, Laguna. My parochia was St. Peter in QC. I was sponsored by someone who I could not refuse. Did I benefit from it? Later I found out no. It was all brainwashing and hypocrisy. Scare tactics were applied. The popular threat about being hit with 2 X 2 turned out to be a sham. 309. Beware says: INC, Mormonism and Catholic church are all both freemansory members.. and Catholic is not just a freemansory but also an Idolaters..! EXODUS 20:4-5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down theyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jelous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; KJV (Please read ten times. I hope that people would understand the verse….) 310. Beware says: anyway if people of the philippines are aware as I am a filipino too..and aware of the philippine history…go search on it.. http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/symbolism/philippine_flag.html JUST COPY AND PASTE THAT..now you can see why philippine itself is a freemansory members… GO AND READ…lahat naman ng logo ng sangay ng gobiyerno eh..masonic talaga.. GO AND READ IT..NAKAKAPANGILABOT..! http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/symbolism/philippine_flag.html 311. Beware says: Catholic should search all the expose about the Popes you can search them on youtube and even google..why popes are called anti-christ…if you want to know just research on that..makikita agad yan sa youtube at google..nakakapangilabot din…ang nakakaawa lang ay naging blinded ang mga miyembro ng CC,, 312. Beware says: Quote from Quirino M. Sugon: “for Christians, humans die only once and his eternal destiny (heaven or hell) depends on the choices and actions he made.” I correct you my dear brother that salvation is not depends on the choices and actions he made…! As the bible says..: Salvation is through FAITH, the gift of GOD,and by his grace. EPHESIANS 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. You Must Receive Christ as Your Personal Savior! Romans:6:23 For the wages of sin is death;But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 10:23 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There is only one way to go to Heaven,believing on the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God and accepting Him as our Lord and personal Saviour. We are all sinners but Christ died for us because of His love toward us: Romans 5:8 But God commandeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 1 Jonh 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Romans 10:9,13 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. that is how we can gain Salvation. 313. Beware says: The Philippine flag – its masonic roots ________________________________________ Time and again it has been asserted that masonry played an important role in the design of the Philippine flag and that some of its symbols were meant to memorialize the Craft. These assertions are essentially plausible, for the man principally responsible for its design — President Emilio Aguinaldo — was a zealous Masonic partisan. In one of his speeches delivered after the Revolution, Aguinaldo said; “The successful Revolution of 1896 was masonically inspired, masonically led, and masonically executed. And I venture to say that the first Philippine Republic of which I was its humble president, was an achievement we owe, largely, to masonry and the freemasons.” Speaking of the revolutionists, he added; “With God to illumine them, and masonry to inspire them, they fought the battle of emancipation and won.” During the Revolution, Aguinaldo frequently displayed a marked bias in favor of freemasons and masonry. He made membership in the masonic fraternity an important qualification for appointments to government positions. His nepotism was so pronounced, a critic of masonry denounced it as one of the “evils” of the Revolution. In his Memoirs, Felipe Calderon, the President of the Malolos Congress, claimed that the “sectarian masonic spirit” undermined the insurrection. He also argued that some serious dissensions among Filipinos originated, “more than for anything else, from the mania of Aguinaldo, or rather of his adviser, Mabini, to elevate any person who was a mason” It should not come as a surprise to anyone, therefore, if Aguinaldo decided to extol masonry in the Philippine flag. Some of the claims made in favor of the masonic link of the Philippine flag, however, are so lavish they strain the reader’s credulity. If all are to be accepted at face value, we cannot avoid the conclusion that our national emblem is a clone of the masonic banner and that all the devices and symbols used in it are of masonic origin, from the triangle, to the sun and stars, down to its colours. The lavish claims, however, were made by freemasons and, therefore, the possibility of exaggeration or embellishment, owing to over enthusiasm, cannot be discounted. Moreover, Aguinaldo did not make a written affirmation of the masonic connection of the flag. On the contrary, some of his official statements do not jibe with the exceedingly generous assertions of the freemasons. A close scrutiny of the claims in favor of Freemasonry must, therefore, be undertaken. But first let us describe the Filipino flag. The Hong Kong designed flag that Aguinaldo brought with him from his exile on board the US dispatch boat McCullock, and which became the official flag of the first Philippine Republic, consisted of two horizontal stripes, blue on top and red below. It had a white equilateral triangle at the hoist that is smaller than that in our flag today. Within the triangle, at its center, a mythological sun was depicted with eyebrows, eyes, nose and mouth in black, bearing eight rays without any minor ray for each, and three five-pointed stars, one at each angle of the triangle. All these devices were in gold or yellow colour. Shortly after its landing on Philippine soil, the flag saw a baptism of fire and blood in several combats with Spanish colonial troops. On June 12, 1898, it was officially consecrated as our national flag at the ceremonial Proclamation of Independence held at Kawit, Cavite. The signer of the proclamation took their oath of allegiance saying: “The undersigned solemnly swear allegiance to the flag and will defend it to the last drop of their blood.” The Aguinaldo flag served as our national emblem up to the conquest of our country by the Americans. During the American régime, the display of the Philippine flag was proscribed from 1902 to 1919. In October of 1919, the ban was officially lifted, but seventeen years of non-use blurred memories about its details. The generation born under the aegis of the new dispensation was unfamiliar with the flag and the few samples that survived were either tattered, faded or termite-eaten. Hence, when Philippine Flag Day was observed on October 30, 1919, there was no uniformity in the design of the Filipino flag. Any tricolour with or without the sunburst device and three stars within a white triangle was taken as the Filipino flag. For well over a decade the confusion surrounding the design of the flag persisted. To do away with irregularities and discrepancies, President Manuel L. Quezon issued Executive Order No. 23, on March 25, 1936, specifying the different elements of the flag. Quezon not only set a uniform pattern for the making of our national emblem as to the size and arrangement of its symbolic elements, he also caused major amendments of its features, to wit: the mythological sun was changed to a solid golden sunburst without any marking; the eight single rays in Aguinaldo’s flag replaced by eight major rays with two minor beams for each ray; the size of the equilateral triangle was made larger by making any side equal to the width of the flag at the hoist; and the colour blue in the upper stripe was standardized to dark blue. Let us now evaluate the statements that postulate the link between the flag and masonry, viz a viz official announcements on the origin and meanings of the flag’s symbols. Masonic Claims – Among the more credible assertions relied upon to establish the tie between masonry and the flag are the following: In October 1899, Ambrocio Flores, Grand Master of the Gran Consejo Regional and at that time a general in the army of Aguinaldo, wrote letters to the Grand Lodges in the United States appealing to them to employ their influence to help the fledgling Philippine Republic. In these letters he compared the Philippine flag to the masonic banner saying, “…this national flag resembles closely our masonic banner starting from its triangular quarter to the prominent central position of its resplendent sun surrounded in its triangular position by three 5-pointed stars. Even in its three coloured background, it is the spitting image of our Venerable Institution’s banner so that when you see it in any part of the world, waving with honor amidst the flags of other nations and acknowledged by these nations, let us hope that with this flag, and through it, our common parent, Freemasonry will likewise be so honored.” In his beautiful Grand Oration pronounced in 1928, historian Teodoro M. Kalaw, Sr., uttered these words: “And the triangle appearing on the Philippine flag, the loftiest symbolism of the struggles of the Filipino people, was put there, according to President Aguinaldo, as an homage to Freemasonry.” Felipe Calderon, writing with a pejorative and anti-masonic tone, said in his Memoirs: It is not a secret to any person that one of the causes of the Philippine insurrection against Spain, … was the animosity of the people … against the religious corporations …. As a result of this animosity against the religious corporations, a tendency which we might call anti-Catholic developed in certain organizations and individuals of the Revolution so that masonry considered the insurrection, and therefore also the revolution , as it own work and even put the triangle in the Filipino flag. As I have already said, this was an evil that had a noxious influence upon the entire body of the Revolution, because Mabini and its followers considered every mason as qualified to carry out any undertaking, and at that time membership in a masonic lodge was the best recommendation a man could possess. In the Question and Answer column of the April 1929 issue of The Cabletow, there appeared the following: Question – The statement was frequently made that the triangle, sun, and stars in the Philippine flag are of masonic origin. This same statement, made by the managing editor of the CABLETOW in a lecture delivered by him, has lately been repeated in Bro. Emmanuel A. Baja’s book entitled “Our Country’s Flag and Anthem.” Having heard the correctness of this statement doubted, I would like to know on what authority it is based. Answer. – The Editor of this column has heard this statement made by several freemasons who can be considered authorities on the subject, including Wor. Bro. Emilio Aguinaldo, erstwhile president of the Philippine Republic, Bro. Tomas G. del Rosario, M. W. Bro. Felipe Buencamino, and several others. x x x.” PGM Emilio Vitara, a long time private secretary of President Aguinaldo, revealed that Aguinaldo personally acknowledged the indebtedness of the Philippine flag to masonic emblems and symbols. Official and semi-official explanations of the symbols – Ranged against the forgoing claims, are the following official and semi-official pronouncements relative to the symbols in the flag: In the Proclamation of Philippine Independence signed in 1898 by Aguinaldo and 96 other Filipino leaders, which consecrated the Hong Kong-designed flag of Aguinaldo as the national emblem of our country, it was stressed: The white triangle represents the distinctive emblem of the famous Katipunan Society, which means of its blood compact suggested to the masses the urgency of insurrection, the three stars represented the three principal islands of the Archipelago, Luzon, Mindanao and Panay, wherein this revolutionary movement broke out: the sun represents the gigantic strides that have been made by the sons of this land on the road to progress and civilization: its eight rays symbolize the eight provinces: Manila, Cavite, Bulacan, Pampanga, Nueva Ecija, Bataan, Laguna and Batangas, which were declared in a state of war almost as soon as the first revolutionary movement was initiated; and the colours blue, red and white, commemorate those of the flag of the United States of North America in manifestation of our profound gratitude towards that great nation for the disinterested protection she is extending to us and will continue to extend to us. In a speech before the Malolos Congress, Aguinaldo added the following nationalistic interpretation of the meaning of the three colours of the flag: Behold this banner with three colours, three stars and a sun, all of which have the following meaning: the red signifies the bravery of the Filipinos which is second to none, a colour that was first used by the revolutionists of the province of Cavite on the 31st of August 1896, until peace reigned with the truce of Biak-na-Bato. The blue signifies that whoever will attempt enslave the Filipinos will have to eradicate them first before they give way. The white signifies that the Filipinos are capable of self-government like other nations… The three stars with five points signify the islands of Luzon, the Visayas, and Mindanao…And, lastly, the eight rays of the rising sun signify the eight provinces of Manila, Bulacan, Pampanga, Nueva Ecija, Morong, Laguna, Batangas and Cavite where martial law was declared. These are the provinces which give light to the Archipelago and dissipated the shadows that wrapped her… By the light of the sun, the Aetas, the Igorots, the Mangyans, and the Moslems are now descending from the mountains, and all of them I recognize as my brothers. Further explanation was supplied by a letter, dated 6 September 1926, from Carlos Ronquillo, the then private secretary of Aguinaldo, addressed to Emmanuel A. Baja. The sun I am referring to … was the mythological sun with eyes, eyebrows, nose and mouth. It was not the artistic one nor the Japanese sun. It was the same sun which appears on the flag of some South American Republics. And I can assure you of this because I drew the design myself by order and instruction of the President, General Aguinaldo. The adoption of the sun was resolved in order that the flag of the Katipunan could be transformed into “the flag of the republic” sustained and defended heroically not only by the Katipunan men but also by the whole people who had joined the Revolution which was started by the worthy “Association of the Sons of the People.” A few months before the Peace of Biak-na-Bato, the Battalion of Pasong Balite, whose commander was the brave gallant General Gregorio H. Del Pilar, had adopted as their ensign a flag which much resembled the present national flag. It had a blue triangle without a sun or stars, the upper half portion was red and the lower half was black. Like the present Philippine flag, its general outline was inspired also by the Cuban flag. From these statements it would seem that the devices in the flag were adopted for reasons other than paying homage to Freemasonry. Only the triangle is traceable to Freemasonry through the Katipunan which itself was admittedly and unabashedly patterned after Freemasonry. Even the models would appear to be not the masonic banner, but the flags of Cuba, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay. With all these as a backdrop, let us now evaluate and examine the contentions of the freemasons. The letter of Flores – The assertion of Ambrocio Flores that the Filipino flag was a spitting image of the masonic banner definitely packs a lot of weight. As a General in the army of Aguinaldo, Flores was familiar with the Filipino flag, and as Grand Master of the Gran Consejo Regional he was also thoroughly conversant with the masonic banner. He, therefore, knew what he was thinking about when he compared the flag of the masonic banner. Unfortunately no document has come down to us that corroborate the statement of Flores. His claim, therefore, cannot be verified. The triangle – The loftiest and most sublime symbol of masonry in the days of the Revolution was the equilateral triangle. The masonic ritual called it the most perfect figure that could be drawn with lines and regarded it as an appropriate emblem of perfection or divinity. The triangle was the first masonic object shown to a candidate for the admission into the mysteries of the craft. Prior to initiation he was brought to a chamber of reflections by the “Terrible” and placed in front of a table upon which was laid a triangle. Here he was obliged to answer questions concerning his concept of man’s duty to God, to himself and to his fellowmen. Inside that lodge the triangle was everywhere. It was on aprons worn by all the officers and members. Stone triangles were placed upon the throne of the “Venerable Maestro” (Worshipful Master) and on the altars of the “Prime Vigilante” (Senior Warden) and the “Segundo Vigilante” (Junior Warden). The tables of the Senior and Junior Wardens and the “Limosnero” (Almoner) were triangular in shape and so were the stools provided for the initiates. The perfect ashlar was represented by a “cubico pyramidal.” And the noblest emblem in the lodge, the one which is equivalent to today’s letter “G” suspended in the East in all lodges, was the “Delta Sagrada” (Sacred Triangle) with the name of the Great Architect of the Universe inscribed in the center in Hebraic characters. The triangle also appeared constantly in masonic communications. Many words frequently employed in documents, like taller, logia, hermano, Venerable Maestro, bateria, Salud, Fuerza y Union, were abbreviated and the abbreviations ended not with single dot but three dots arranged in a form of triangle. In as much as the triangle was the heavyweight among masonic emblems, it became the favorite symbol of the freemasons, including Aguinaldo. This is the symbol the freemasons inscribed on their rings, cuff-links and other jewelries. Aguinaldo, for his part, used it repeatedly in his letters and documents. He incorporated it in the postage and telegraph stamps issued by his government and on the coins which he ordered minted. Even the insignias on the chevrons of the officers of the Revolution bore the triangle. In social gatherings Aguinaldo never forgot the triangle. On his 31st birthday (22 March 1900), he served lunch to his guests in his mountain hideout on a “triangular table for 150 persons.” When the anniversary of the ratification of Philippine independence by the Malolos Congress was celebrated in Palanan, Isabela on 29 September, Aguinaldo again tendered lunch for the celebrants on a huge triangular table that could seats 200 persons. Years later, when he entertained his guests in the spacious yard of his mansion in Kawit, Cavite after his installation as Master of his lodge, had all the tables where food was served arranged in the form of a giant triangle. The Spanish authorities were also aware of the importance placed by freemasons upon the triangle. Its discovery on any document was taken as a dead give-away that it was masonic. Thus, among the pieces of evidence accepted as proof of the guilt of the Thirteen Martyrs of Cavite, were a booklet with a triangle on its frontispiece and a large photograph confiscated from Hugo Perez, the Master of España en Filipinas lodge in Cavite containing several pictures of the members of his lodge arranged in triangular form. In light of the important role the triangle played in masonic rituals and symbolism it would be the logical and natural choice of any endeavor to pay tribute to Freemasonry. Taking into account Aguinaldo’s ardent love affair with the masonic triangle, and considering further that the claimed masonic tie of the triangle in the Filipino flag does not collide with official explanations of the symbols in the flag, and considering, finally, that even a masonic critic in the person of Calderon asserted that the triangle was included in the flag by freemasons, I submit we can accept the statement which Kalaw attributed To Aguinaldo that the triangle in the flag was placed there as a tribute to masonry. The Sun, Stars, and Colors – The sun, stars, and colours red, white and blue are minor emblems in the pantheon of masonic symbolism. They were overshadowed by the square, compasses, level, plumb, etc. The only place were the sun, stars, and the three colours had a degree of importance was in the “Decoracion de la Logia” (Decoration of the lodge). The rituals of the Grand Oriente Español most emphatically stated that the lodge was a representation of the universe. It directed that the lodge be rectangular in shape and its four walls be denominated East, South, West and North. In the East it was required that a “disco radiante” (radiant disk) be placed representing the sun. Rays radiated from the East, diminishing in brilliance until they reached the West where they were convered with clouds. The ceiling was painted to represent a starlit sky. Stars were also used on the fingers of the canopy covering the throne of Venerable Master. Likewise the altar was draped with red velvet on which was embroidered the square and compasses with a five-pointed stars in the center. Furthermore, a five-pointed star, with the letter “G” in the center, was the symbol of the fellow craft degree. Red and blue were the dominant colours in the lodge. The walls of the lodge were draped with blood red colour (colgaduras encarnadas) and the altars of the Wardens, the tables of the Orator, Secretary, Treasurer and Almoner, the long benches, the stools for initiates, and all the chairs in the lodge were upholstered or covered with red. On the other hand, the canopy covering the throne of the Worshipful Master was sky blue and even the ceiling of the lodge had a hint of blue. To a Master, therefore, sitting upon his throne, the colours which he saw if he looked straight ahead or to either side was red, and blued if he looked up. Also, the banner which the Statues prescribed for the Federation of the Gran Oriente Español had a blue stripe on top and a red one at the bottom. That for a Blue lodge was blue and the one for a Chapter of Rose Croix was red. If we give a free reign to our imagination, a similarity between the decoration of the lodge and the Filipino flag could easily be perceived. But imagination cannot be the basis for the historicity of the masonic heritage of the flag. Moreover, it is doubtful if Aguinaldo in those days ever saw a lodge decorated in strict accordance with the specification of the ritual. Masonic meetings were then held on the run, because of the persecution of freemasons by the Spanish colonial powers. Meetings had to be kept secret from profane eyes and were moved from one place to another to avoid detection. Even the triangular tables and other paraphernalia had to be so designed that they could be dismantled and rearranged at a moment’s notice to resemble ordinary furniture. For freemasons to have painted the walls and ceiling of their meeting place in conformity with ritual would have been the height of imprudence. The most that can therefore be said is that Aguinaldo must have been aware of the prescribed decoration of the lodge through the rituals with which he was undoubtedly familiar. In conclusion, I submitted that of all the symbols and devices in the flag it is only the triangle whose masonic parentage may be accepted. The basis for the masonic link of the sun, stars, and colours of the flag are too slim to make out a solid case. But the presence of even only one masonic symbol in the flag should make freemasons proud. After all, it was the premier symbol of the Craft — the symbol of perfection — that was selected for inclusion. The masonic connection of the Philippine flag does not end with its design. Freemasons have played significant roles during the most memorable events where the flag has been unfolded on Philippine soil. On June 12, 1892, when Philippine independence was proclaimed at Kawit, Cavite a Proclamation of Independence, written by freemason (Ambrocio Rianzares Bautista) and signed by another mason (Aguinaldo), was read. Thereafter a freemason (Rianzares Bautista) displayed the flag before the populace. On October 14, 1943, Philippine Independence was proclaimed anew under the sponsorship of the Japanese Imperial forces. A freemason (Jorge B. Vargas of Sinukuan lodge) read the proclamation terminating the Japanese Military Administration and thereafter another freemason (Aguinaldo) hoisted the flag marking the first time since the start of the Japanese occupation that the flag was displayed in public. On July 4, 1946, for a third time, Philippine independence was announced to the world. On this occasion a Proclamation signed by a mason (President and PGM Harry S. Truman) was read by another freemason (Paul V. McNutt) at the Luneta after which a third freemason (President Manuel A. Roxas, Past Master of Makawiwili lodge No. 55), raised the Philippine standard. Considering the historic link between the Philippine flag and Freemasonry, no one should begrudge the freemasons of the Philippines if they behold our flag with unbounded pride. To Philippine freemasons, the flag is not only an emblem of liberty and a symbol of the valour and sacrifices of our people, it is also a memorial to the fraternity which they so dearly loved. 314. forwarded says: Bible Question: Did Onan die in Genesis 38:9-10 because he did not want children? Bible Answer: Levirate-marriage is a strange custom for us today. For some, it may seem to be an evil custom. It required one brother to marry the wife of a brother who died and who did not have a son. The custom of levirate-marriage was practiced throughout the Old Testament (Gen. 38:6-10; Ruth 4:10) and even into Christ’s time (Matt. 22:24). It is clear this was a divine principle during the time the book of Genesis covers, and it was finally written down as part of the Mosaic Law, ” When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a strange man. Her husband’s brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. “And it shall be that the first-born whom she bears shall assume the name of his dead brother, that his name may not be blotted out from Israel. But if the man does not desire to take his brother’s wife, then his brother’s wife shall go up to the gate to the elders and say, ‘My husband’s brother refuses to establish a name for his brother in Israel; he is not willing to perform the duty of a husband’s brother to me.’ Then the elders of his city shall summon him and speak to him. And if he persists and says, ‘I do not desire to take her,’ then his brother’s wife shall come to him in the sight of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face; and she shall declare, ‘Thus it is done to the man who does not build up his brother’s house.’ And in Israel his name shall be called, ‘The house of him whose sandal is removed.'” (NASB) Deuteronomy 25:5-10 This was designed to ensure that the family line continued. Genesis 38:9-10. Genesis 38:9-10 is about levirate-marriage. Er and Onan were brothers. Er was married to Tamar. He was an evil man. We do not know what he was doing, but God took his life. Er had no offspring, so Judah told Onan to “perform his duty” and produce offspring. ” Now Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s first-born, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” And Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so it came about that when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground, in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also. ” (NASB) Genesis 38:6-10 We do not know why, but Onan did not want to continue Er’s family line. Did Er and Onan conflict with each other? Did Onan not like Tamar? Whatever the reason, Onan did not want to have to consummate the marriage with Tamar. Why did he start “making love” and then “destroyed [his seed] on the ground?” We do not know, but that is what he did. This is where the term “onanism” comes from. Today it is applied to masturbation, but the Bible says, ” . . . when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed . . .” It appears they were “making love” and he stopped. Did something happen between them? Scripture does not say. What was his sin? His sin was not about refusing to have children or exercising birth control. His sin was an evil attitude in his heart, “in order not to give offspring to his brother.” So God took his life . . . Conclusion: Onan is an example of disobedience – an evil man who did not want to fulfill God’s command. There was also an earlier question related to birth control. 315. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Beware, If you copied and pasted it from a source, it would have been more worthwhile to simply link to it. But if it is copied from a book, thank you for taking time to typing it for us, but please put the author, title, publisher, date, page numbers, etc. Plagiarism is now making headlines in our country–e.g. Ateneo and Supreme Court. We do not wish to add to the list. 316. artsee says: The Catholic Church is also known for her Plagiarism. 317. Alaina says: Mr. Sugon, Before anything, I would like to tell you that I am impressed by the calm, respectful and intelligent manner by which you respond to the various comments posted above, however uncharitable some may be. The purpose of this post is to actually ask if you believe that a person who has not known God is capable of loving (it’s hard to define loving, but I hope we all have an idea of what is it to genuinely love). If yes, what would be the difference of that love to a Christian love? In other words, what would make Christian love so special? Also, I have been wondering what if God did not exist and that man is merely a product of chance? I am not an anti-God or something but let us just take for now that God does not exist. Will man ever be able to love? I am sorry if this is a totally unrelated comment. You may want to direct me somewhere else to which I can appropriately throw my questions. Thank you. :) 318. artsee says: It’s related. The theory of evolution, the Big Bang, etc have been the talked about for decades and centuries. What if indeed there’s no God? And that religion and fear of God were created to instill law and order in the world? The so called after life, heaven and fear of the unknown are meant to give hope to those who are hopeless. 319. Steve says: When I have taught scripture classes, I have asked the same question. If it was proven, beyond doubt, that the scriptures were just fiction, would that make a difference in your faith? This questions presumes the difference between faith and belief. We believe many things that have been proven over time to be untrue. But is faith predicated on an intellectual acceptance of a list of “facts.” I suggest, and it is up to you to look into your own soul for the answer, that faith is not based on an intellectual exercise, but is the heart of the mystic experience of God in Christ that is available to His saints. By your experience of God in your life and prayer, this full knowledge, of the same sort that is spoken of in Genesis, where it is said that Adam Knew Eve, and further in the Song of Songs, and in John’s Gospel. This is beyond intellect. People are offered by the church a list of items to agree with, to say they believe in, ie the Nicene Creed among others. This is because, as St. Paul says, we believe as a child and act as a child, but that being in Christ, we are given the opportunity to see and know directly, face to face rather than through an obscure glass. It is felt, by church authorities the world over, that we must come to God by stages, and that many never get beyond the primer stage. This is a form of paternalism that is necessary in some cases, and an afront in others. We worry too much about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or how many days creation took. Neither of these come to the mystery of salvation, but may be markers on the map to take us there. It is good to have guides. In the form of scriptures, priests and teachers, as long as we don’t depend on them entirely, or that they insist that they are necessary to our relationship with Our Heavenly Father. Take a look at the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola. 320. Wants To Be Anonymous says: My dear friend, Regarding your remark earlier in this post, “Contraception is the prevention of the union of the sperm and egg. This is what condoms do. The other way is to spill the semen outside the vagina. This is what Onan did in the Bible and God struck him dead:” I would like to remind you of the official interpretation of the verse you quoted, from the Book of Genesis, Chapter 38, Verse 8 http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis38.htm#foot3 3 [8] Preserve your brother’s line: literally “raise up seed for your brother.” The ancient Israelites regarded as very important their law of levirate, or “brother-in-law” marriage; see notes on Deut 25:5; Ruth 2:20. In the present story, it is primarily Onan’s violation of this law, rather than the means he used to circumvent it, that brought on him God’s displeasure (Genesis 38:9-10). May I also recommend a cleanup of this post? Many of the comments, seem to belong better in other or new posts altogether. I hope you are looking forward to better, brighter holidays ahead. 321. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Forwarded and Wants To, If one base only on Mosaic law, some sins are not really punishable by death: (1) a man gathering wood on Sabbath day (Num 15:32) can be forgiven by offering a she-goat as sin offering (Num 15:27), (2) those who eat the fat of animals shall at most be cut off from his people (he is banished)(Lv 7:7), (3) a man who will not propagate his dead brother’s line by having sexual intercourse with his dead brother’s wife will simply be shamed in public by removing the sandals from his feet (Dt 25:5-10). But in all three cases, God punished them with death. The wood-gatherer was commanded by God to be stoned to death (Num 15:35), the fat-eating sons of Eli (1 Sam 2:12-17) who carried the Ark of the covenant were killed in battle (1 Sam 4:11), and Onan who spilled his seed was struck dead by God (Gen 3:10). According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. God looks at the heart and judges accordingly (1 Sam 16:7). Onan’s spilling of his seed to prevent procreation is a grave matter done with full knowledge and deliberate consent. Christ is also severe in his judgment of what we think are simple sins: “But I say to you, whoever is angry 18 with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.” (Mt 5:22) “But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Mt 5:28) 322. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Wants To, The pope, not the USCCB, is the ultimate teacher in matters of faith and morals. In his encyclical Casti Connubii, Pope Pius XI writes: 54. But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious. 55. Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, “Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of Juda, did this and the Lord killed him for it.”[45] 56. Since, therefore, openly departing from the uninterrupted Christian tradition some recently have judged it possible solemnly to declare another doctrine regarding this question, the Catholic Church, to whom God has entrusted the defense of the integrity and purity of morals, standing erect in the midst of the moral ruin which surrounds her, in order that she may preserve the chastity of the nuptial union from being defiled by this foul stain, raises her voice in token of her divine ambassadorship and through Our mouth proclaims anew: any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11CASTI.HTM 323. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Alaina, It is ok. In this post, anyone can ask anything related to the Catholic Faith. There are many kinds of love. The Greeks classified love in four kinds: agape (deeper love than eros), eros (passionate love of husband and wife), philia (dispassionate love between friends), and storge (affectionate love of parents to children) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love. In the new Testament, agape is used for Christian love. Filipinos, on the other hand, refers to love as either pag-ibig (to desire) or pagmamahal (to associate with a high priced good). So even pagans can have an idea what it is to love. But Christian love gives a transcendental reason why we should love our neighbor: because it is by loving our neighbor that we can show that we love God. By his Incarnation, Christ has united himself to humanity: “Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'(Mt 25:40) This makes it possible for Christians to love even the unlovable by human standards. Christ said: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors 28 do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, 30 just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:43-48) Evolution cannot explain free will. Love is not simply a chemical reaction or a response to a stimulus. Love is a product of the will and will can only be a gift of God. God gave man free will so that man can freely love Him. God loved us first. If we are simply a product of chance and were not created by God, then all of loving will be reduced to animal instincts. There is no point in telling your loved one that you will love him or her forever for man’s life ends with bodily death. But Christian Faith teaches us that death can never separate us from our loved ones because we are united in love by Christ and nothing can ever separate us from Him: “What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword? As it is written: “For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, 9 nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, 10 nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:35-39) 324. checkmatepawn2 says: To ALL INC orporated! Advance Merry Christmas. Sort of.. They just call it “holiday” because they don’t have. What exacty the members of INC orporated are doing during this time of the year? Maybe they are celebrating with the same person they considered as devils… 325. checkmatepawn2 says: To: seeker Eli Soriano is credible enough for his evidence in the contradicting foundation of INC or proven non existing and false foundation. The articles he uses in that argument came from INC. It just became a dilemma to INC. A simple mistake that can destroy their business venture. 326. forwarded says: Sir, please read my post again. Neither the spilling of the seed nor the violation of Mosaic law was the reason why God took Onan’s life. It was because of his evil heart, “in order not to give an offspring to his deceased brother.” And it is not unusual for God to take the lives of persons whose hearts are evil. A case in point was the death of Ananias(and his wife Sapphira). “Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. Then Peter said, “Ananias, HOW IS IT THAT SATAN SO FILLED YOUR HEART that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.” — Acts 5:1-5 327. seeker says: Soriano credible? Look at his preaching style and the doctrines he teaches many of which were copied from INC. It’s no a surprise because many of his members are former INC members presumably expelled for one reason or another. Soriano’s ADD has her own anomalies and money-making schemes. One time, I saw him on his TV program begging the members to contribute. 328. Wants To Be Anonymous says: My friend, I may have used a link from the USCCB out of habit, but you should know better that THE HOLY SEE teaches the same as the New American Bible is the official English Translation used by the Holy See: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P14.HTM#$5S

In the present story, it is primarily Onan’s violation of this law, rather than the means he used to circumvent it, that brought on him God’s displeasure

Unless you are telling me that the current Bishop of Rome has overlooked this important fact, your comments are non-sequitur: especially when you consider that Pope Pius XII, successor to Pope Pius XI (whom you have quoted), promoted “the modern period of Roman Catholic Bible studies by permitting the limited use of modern methods of biblical criticism”

The point is, please don’t quote something out of context, or if you will be quoting something to make a point, make sure it’s well thought out, cross referenced etc. etc., you have mentioned before that something about not being interested in exegesis, that is okay. But don’t be like any of those quasi christian, born again, quasi protestant, preachers/speakers.

You have to better, don’t you? AMDG, right?

I have mentioned something similar before, but you should also remember that if you study the words of St. Augustine and of Pope Pius XI (who quoted St. Augustine in what you quoted), you should also consider their intended audiences, among other things.

I have respect for these saints, Pope Pius XI and St. Augustine, and it is not a time for arguments, so I’ll just leave you to remember that even Ignatius was a sinner, and even long after he started his journey towards becoming a soldier of god, he has been faced by temptation (and I wouldn’t be surprised if history reveals/or has already revealed but I have just not researched it thoroughly yet) that he gave in to at least one temptation… remember your academic forefather and Galileo…

It’s a good time to remember good things :)

329. Wants To Be Anonymous says:

Also, my friend, you brought up some very interesting examples earlier, however, once more you forgot to study and understand the whole thing, the Holy See currently teaches us through the bible that:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P54.HTM#$J9 4 [9-10] The penalty decreed for a man who refuses to comply with this law of family loyalty is public disgrace (the widow is to spit in his face) and the curse of poverty; sandals were proverbially a man’s cheapest possession (cf ⇒ Amos 2:6; ⇒ 8:6), and therefore “a man without sandals” was the poorest of the poor. Some commentators, however, connect this symbolic act with the ceremony mentioned in ⇒ Ruth 4:7, 8. And remember that death is also a poverty of life… My friend, remember I am on your side, I am here to remind you to do better. To speak the language you once mentioned somewhere in this blog, if you were the battousai, I wish I was Hiko Seijuro, but I am not, maybe I will be the brat who keeps reminding you to be better. 330. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Wants To, We belong to opposite poles in the theological spectrum. For me, when the pope invokes his teaching authority in proclaiming a particular doctrine, all debates of Catholic theologians regarding this doctrine should cease. Only the pope has the gift of infallibility. For you, each individual is the final arbiter by reading all the books, footnotes, references, side notes about a particular doctrine. For you, there is no distinction between the teaching authority of a pope and that of the bishop, priests, and theologians. For you, a footnote in an approved Bible has the same weight as a papal encyclical. By the way, my academic forefather is not Galileo but St. Robert Bellarmine. 331. seeker says: Merry Christmas to you checkmatepawn too ! Some prefer using “Happy Holiday” as greeting because this is a general greeting acceptable to all religions and faiths. Isn’t Christmas Season a Holiday Season? How do you greet a Jew, Muslim or some Christian groups that don’t celebrate Christmas (Jehova’s/INC)? I don’t want to discuss about the pagan origin of Christmas and whether or not Jesus was really born on December 25 during the cold winter month. But I want to mention the commercialization of Christmas that instead of focusing on Christ’s birth, Santa Claus is now the center of attention. Who’s fault is this? Of course the Catholics and other believers of Christmas including the business owners, manufacturers, merchants. It’s all about money and spending. But then, what’s the difference of Christmas celebration and spending to the many Fiestas the Catholics regularly celebrate? 332. checkmatepawn2 says: To seeker: I din’t say that Eli Soriano is credible as a person rather, specifically his point of view on INC orporated foundation(The angel scam). How do I greet them? Merry christmas. The fact that the “holiday” is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. If they feel offended or somewhat they fell demoralize then that is there problem. I didn’t say that “oh you’re an INC orporated, your a cult are you?” (even though they are) Its all about the marketing, at first. Its all in the history. Then is all about the money, in 80’s even today, making santa claus look like a coca cola trademark which it does. Who cares if the celebration will increase someone’s wealth it is all about business, even china is making products based on the tradition of other countries. The Christmas trees, the decorations in it, christmas lights, fireworks, toys, clothes, is all made in china. Yup it is not Dec 25. It is decided on that day for the competition for some pagan rituals. But it really doesn’t matter, Jesus Christ was born anyway. What important is the day that where an “angel” should be and that is the biggest thing the make the fool out of INC. the difference from it is the essence and the level of envy that the INC orporated felt during the celebration. It makes the INC orporated members broke the rules they made just to celebrate with us. 333. artsee says: Most of the argument with INC is about Christ’s deity. The issue about a Virgin (Mary) giving birth without sexual intercourse (with Joseph) was believed to be a mystery, a miracle, work of God, giving strength to the argument that Jesus is God. But with today’s advanced medical technology, a woman getting pregnant without sexual intercourse is no longer a surprise. We have what’s called artificial insemination. Could it be possible that there was such thing during that time taught to us or handed down by beings from another planet who were more advanced than us? 334. Wants To Be Anonymous says: I thought you were a physicist? Regardless, no one is limiting you to having only one forefather. At any rate, it is not about which side of the theological spectrum, if there is one, is who on, but rather that you should be better. I find it amusing that you often refuse to take a proper stance and perform exegesis on issues mentioned here in your blog, yet you claim St. Robert Bellarmine (among) your forefather(s)! Once again, since we have discussed this previously, I would like to remind you to revisit and study the true meaning of Papal infallibility, under which circumstances it applies, etc. etc. You can’t just throw it out of the hat like that, you’ll be no different from quasi christian preachers who have caused catholics to turn their backs to the church, is that what you want? 335. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Wants To, I am a Catholic first and a physicist next. You may like to read St. Bellarmine’s letter to Foscarini on Galileo. http://www.historyguide.org/earlymod/foscarini.html I am not a exegete but a simple Catholic. Regarding exegesis, I trust the minds of St. Augustine, St. Aquinas, and of the popes more than my own. For things open to speculations, I speculate and give my opinions. For things defined with finality by the Catholic Church, I keep my mouth shut and obey. I am only following St. Ignatius Rules for Thinking, Judging, and Feeling with the Church: 1. With all judgment of our own put aside, we ought to keep our minds disposed and ready to be obedient in everything to the true Spouse of Christ our Lord, which is our Holy Mother, the hierarchical Church. 13. To keep ourselves right in all things, we ought to hold fast to this principle: What I see as white, I will believe to be black if the hierarchical Church thus determines it. For we believe that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, his Spouse, there is the one same Spirit who governs and guides us for the salvation of our souls. For it is by the same Spirit and Lord of ours who gave the ten commandments that our holy Mother Church is guided and governed. Ok, please define what you think is Papal Infallibility. Then state on whose authority do you make such definition and why should I believe such authority. 336. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says: Artsee, You don’t have to look for beings from advanced alien civilization. Angels are beings without bodies. They are the true out-of-this-world aliens. They do not come here through UFO spaceships. They just come. They can read your mind. Can some being in the physical universe be more advanced than angels? If you believe on the word of aliens who have not revealed themselves, you should believe on the word of angels who have revealed themselves as ambassadors of God. God is the ultimate alien. He existed before the world began. He Himself made the world. Artificial insemination is not fitting for the child who will be called the Son of God. Only a miracle suffices equal to the creation of the whole universe: a virgin conceives a male child. You may like to read about virgin birth or parthogenesis in Wikipedia: “There are no known cases of naturally occurring mammalian parthenogenesis in the wild. Parthenogenetic progeny of mammals would have two X chromosomes, and would therefore be female.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis) 337. artsee says: VATICAN CITY – This is no ordinary bank: the ATMs are in Latin. Priests use a private entrance. A life-size portrait of Pope Benedict XVI hangs on the wall. Nevertheless, the Institute for Religious Works is a bank, and it is under harsh new scrutiny in a case involving money-laundering allegations that led police to seize 23 million euros ($30 million) in Vatican assets in September. Critics say the case shows that the “Vatican Bank” has never shed its penchant for secrecy and scandal.

…..What’s new? Vatican has always been involved with financial scandals even causing the alleged assassination of one Pope who investigated it. Vatican’s ties to Mafia and Nazi are on record and history. Is this the Church you belong?

338. Er says:

artsee, you are feasting on this wikileaks story? Why not donate your money to wikileaks so as to spy for you?

I wonder if wikileaks and the US have interest in your cult’s billions owned by the whole clan of your founder? Tsk Tsk tsk, blind fools.

339. artsee says:

That’s all a blind follower believing in false teachings could say? Answer the above. Now, if you don’t believe there were and still are financial scandals in Vatican, don’t you believe there are lots of sex pervert Priests and Bishops being sued and prosecuted causing payment of millions of dollars to settle the cases? That’s where your donations go.

340. artsee says:

EVEN NUN ?

NEW YORK (Reuters) – A Catholic nun with a reputation for gambling trips to Atlantic City was accused of embezzling more than \$850,000 from a college where she oversaw the school’s finances, officials said on Friday.

Sister Marie Thornton, former vice president of finance at Iona College in New Rochelle, New York, is charged with sending phony invoices to the school to pay off personal credit card bills and expenses, the U.S. Attorney’s office said.

The thefts occurred between 1999 and 2009, when Thornton resigned from the Catholic college, court documents said. She entered a plea of not guilty to a federal embezzlement charge.

…Well, you would say it’s an isolated case and nuns are also human beings. Don’t be surprised if nuns get pregnant and bury the babies at the back of convent.

341. checkmatepawn2 says:

To artsee:

The biggest difference between INC cult and us is we admit our mistakes, if there is one.

Money laundering is an activity in which persons involve can be very powerful even the authority of Italy can’t handle alone.

The bank may also involve in harboring money from WWII Jewish victims. Whatever the reason nor the cause of this evil act is not yet proven or have a full disclosure.

To all INC if there is one here, which of course they pretend to be not when cornered.

Since INC operated are the only ones that are to be “saved.” I dare you to post a comment here that all Muslims will go to hell. Before you do that do you know that at the back of your mother ship there is a large community of Muslims? If you’re not going to write it then it is not true that Felix Manalo has a Godly authority or prophetic role or an angel (can be proven false by anyone). If you write then, well there can be a fatal consequences.

342. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

In the 2000 years of Catholic History, nothing is new. We have seen the worst popes:

“The Borgias or Borjas were a Valencian (Spanish)-Italian noble family who became prominent during the Renaissance. They are remembered today for their corrupt rule when one of them was Pope. The Borgias have been accused of many different crimes, generally on considerable evidence, including adultery, simony, theft, rape, bribery, incest, and murder (especially murder by arsenic poisoning[1]).

“Rodrigo, a cunning intriguer, was elected Pope in 1492, taking the name Alexander VI. He had several acknowledged children, of which Lucrezia and Cesare were best known. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Borgia)

Yes, this is the Catholic Church where I belong (though bad popes are few exceptions to the list of holy popes). If the Catholic Church was invented by man, the Catholic Church could have disintegrated into many sects as what happened to Protestantism. But the Catholic Church remains. Whenever there is a crisis in the Church, God always send saints to repair it. During the reign of three popes, God sent St. Catherine of Siena. When the Popes became too worldly and obsessed with wealth and honor, God sent the humble St. Francis. When Europe was split with Albigensian heresy, God sent St. Dominic. When Protestantism was gripping Europe, God sent St. Ignatius. And when the ancient world was torn by Arianism (the predecessor of INC), God sent St. Ignatius of Antioch. Their heroic life of virtues, the holiness of their writings, and the miracles they performed all point to one source: God.

The Catholic Church was not invented by man. Christ the Son of God founded it on Peter the Rock. And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

343. forwarded says:

Pawn,

Christ will save his church, the Church of Christ. But that doesn’t mean that only members of the true Church will be saved. God is not unfair. For those who haven’t had the chance to know about the Church, they will be judged according the law written on their hearts, their consciences bearing witness.

“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;” (Romans 2:14-15)

344. forwarded says:

Just read the exchange between Sir Quirino and Mr. Wants to.

As pointed out by the blog owner in an earlier post, one of the marks of the true Church is “oneness.” The debate re birth control makes me doubt if the Catholic Church is indeed one…

345. artsee says:

The biggest difference between INC cult and us is we admit our mistakes, if there is one.

…So, you still are not sure that your church has made even one mistake!

346. artsee says:

Centuries back, no one dared to criticize the Catholic Church or face the serious consequences. Cover up after cover up. Case in point were those sex crimes committed by these pedophile priests who always got away with it. Did the church ever admit all those mistakes? Nah.

Thanks to the modern media and courageous people who now are not afraid to expose the scandals and evils within your church. And due to the current legal system and competent persecution of these erring priests, many are now being charged and convicted. How could they not admit when millions of dollars are spent to bribe the complainants and settle the cases amicably? Would your church spend so much money if you have not made mistakes?

347. Truth says:

WHAT IS THE TRUE NATURE OF THE TRUE GOD?

Book: My First Catechism
Author: Priest (Fr.) Paolo O. Pirlo SHMI

(Page 14) God is Father. Father is the 1st Person in Trinity.

Person – means human being, can grow tired & weary, mortal, visible & created by God.
Anti Christ – means contradict & against to the words of Christ.

The statement in the page 14 above contradict to the Words of God.

Book: Holy Bible
True Christians says;
(John 4:24) – God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
(1 Timothy 1:17) – Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

True Prophets says;
(Isaiah 40:28) – Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.

Book: My First Catechism
Author: Priest (Fr.) Paolo O. Pirlo SHMI

(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons. To whom teaching that God divided in three person in Page 15? Answer: Page 19 Devil. What is Devil? Answer: Page 19 Devil means Divider

348. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Forwarded,

Your statement agrees with that of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

349. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

A person is not necessarily a human being. Any self-conscious or rational being is a person http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person. (If you prefer a more philosophical discussion on the definition of a person, check the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm) Thus, “person” can include humans and angels. So when we say that the Father is the first Person in the Trinity, it does not necessarily follow that the Father is human being.

P.S. Instead of “My First Catechism”, it is better to read the full Catechism of the Catholic Church online:http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

350. Er says:

You nailed it Bro. Quirino!
Praise to Jesus Christ forever!

351. seeker says:

Could it be that some in the Roman Catholic Church have a confused view of salvation due to unbiblical doctrines taught in the Roman Catholic Church?

Note: In an effort to accurately represent the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, references are cited from an authoritative source, the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, imprimatur from eminent Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and the “Holy See,” copyright 1994. Ratzinger is Prefect of the “Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.”

Subjects:
Salvation through Faith by Grace Alone | Salvation in Christ Alone | Mary | Pope and Infallibility | The Mass | Purgatory | The Priestly System | Other Differences | Conclusion

352. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Forwarded,

The Catholic Church has only one official teaching. The refusal of some Catholics to believe in a particular Catholic doctrine that is required for salvation does not nullify the oneness of the Catholic Church. Those who refuse to believe cut themselves off from the spiritual life of the Church until they wither like dead branches and fall to the ground. The Church is the Body of Christ. If you abide with the Church, you abide with Christ. If you remove yourself from the Church, you remove yourself from Christ. (c.f. John 15 vine and the Branches)

353. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

Use the verses in your Bible to prove to me that there should be no other books in the Bible except the ones listed in your Bible’s Table of Contents, no more no less.

If this is difficult, where in the Gospels did Jesus say “It is more blessed to give than to receive” (Acts 20:35) as quoted by St. Paul?

354. seeker says:

Oneness of the Catholic Church? Did you mean unity? All we know is that there are so much division, contradictions and disobedience within Catholic Church even opposing the Pope who is supposed to be the respected leader.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Correct. But who is the Head? Yours is the Pope. If Christ is your Head and the Body is the Catholic Church, why do other parts of the Body not follow the Head? To follow Christ is to obey His teachings. But do Catholics obey His teachings?

355. Truth says:

TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR.

DID CHRIST BUILD HIS CHURCH?

CHRIST says;
(Matthew 16:18 Ibid) I will build my church

WHAT IS THE CHURCH OR THE MEMBERS NAME AS HIS BODY THAT CHRIST BUILD?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(Romans 16:16 Ibid) All the churches of Christ (Iglesia Ni Cristo) send greetings.

WHO IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(Colossians 1:18 Ibid) Christ is the head of the body, the church
(Ephesians 5:23 Ibid) Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior

ANTI CHRIST – CONTRADICT AND AGAINST THE TEACHING OF CHRIST. AS THEIR TEACHING PETER AND POPE ARE THE HEAD OF CHURCH WHERE CHRIST TEACHING HE IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH.

BOOK: MY FIRST CATECHISM
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;

(Page 59) Peter is the head of the Church.
(Page 109) The Pope is the Bishop of Rome the head of the Church

WHO IS THE SPIRITUAL WIFE OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(Ephesians 5:23 Ibid) Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything

ANTI CHRIST – CONTRADICT AND AGAINST THE TEACHING OF CHRIST. AS THEIR TEACHING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SPIRITUAL WIFE IS THE BISHOP WHERE CHRIST TEACHING THE CHURCH SPIRITUAL WIFE IS CHRIST.

BOOK: MY FIRST CATECHISM
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;

(Page 111) The Bishop receives the ring symbol of his fidelity to the Catholic Church as his spiritual wife

DID CHRIST RESIGN AS HEAD OF THE CHURCH?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(Matthew 28:20 Ibid) I am with you always, to the very end of the age

ANTI CHRIST – CONTRADICT AND AGAINST THE TEACHING OF CHRIST. AS THEIR TEACHING PETER CONSECRATED PETER AS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH WHERE CHRIST TEACHING HE IS WITH US TO THE VERY END OF THE AGE.

BOOK: MY FIRST CATECHISM
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;

(Page 41) Jesus consecrated Peter and his successor, as the head and the shepherd of his Church
(Page 55) The Pope is the successor of St. Peter

356. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

(Romans 16:16 Ibid) All the churches of Christ (Iglesia Ni Cristo) send greetings.

This is a wrong translation. The word “churches” is not “Church”. The proper translation should have been “ang mga iglesia ni Cristo.” If you want to know what these churches are, they are named after cities or places: “church in Ephesus”, “church in Smyrna”, “church in Pergamum”, “church in Thyatira”, “church in Sardis”, “church in Philadelphia”, “church in Laodicea” (Rev 2-3). For its part, the Catholic Church recognized these churches for centuries. For example, Ephesus is where Mary lived with John and their house is at present pilgrimage site (c.f Jn 19:26) (http://www.sacred-destinations.com/turkey/ephesus-virgin-mary.htm). Also, Pope Paul VI (Pacelli) was once the titutar archbishop of Sardis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/See_of_Sardis).

If these churches were not recognized by INC, were never part of INC’s history, then INC is not the true Church. Not all those who claim they are the church of Christ are the true Church of Christ. Read history. But unfortunately, a hundred years ago, there is no INC to read about.

357. Marz says:

As far as I know, INC used to use the verse Roman 16:16 only. Because at that time, INC usually used the Filipino translation of the Bible. So, in Tagalog it says “Iglesia ni Kristo”. That’s why until this day, they refer to one another and call themselves as “Iglesia ni Kristo” kami which does not make sense. In English, they call themselves “We are church of Christ” instead of we are members of the church. The correct Filipino words should therefore be “mga kaanib ng Iglesia ni Kristo kami”.

Let’s give it to INC for having a bunch of good researchers. It was during the time of Ka Erdie Manalo that they came up with the verse in Acts 20:28 Moffat Translation that directly refer to the members as “church of Christ”. From then on, they use Acts 20:28 more than Roman 16:16.

358. Marz says:

Another lie that was caught which INC later modified was the so called “Semi-Annual Thanksgiving” being observed every July. As if the yearly Thanksgiving was not enough, INC added Semi-Annual Thanksgiving” to collect more money which was not even in the Bible. Unable to stand detractors’ criticism, INC changed it to “Church Anniversary Thanksgiving”. Smart move.

The abovementioned yearly Thanksgiving is being held in December. Instead of celebrating Christmas, INC has her own called “Thanksgiving”.

INC members are not allowed to participate in Christmas celebrations referring it as “pagan”. They don’t give gifts but I bet you if you give them, they would receive the gifts. Many also join the school and company Christmas parties. Gift giving and exchange gifts have pagan origin, according to INC. But they do these after Christmas using “New Year” as alibi.

Speaking of the Annual Thanksgiving, members are asked to deposit every week and then they are given a certificate reflecting the amount they have deposited throughout the year to be offered as Thanksgiving during the Thanksgiving Worship Service. Since INC is a non-profit organization and they don’t engage in business, what happen to money deposited in the banks collected from the members? Don’t these earn interest? If there are interest earnings, does INC keep these or waive these interest. Considering the millions of dollars being deposited around the world, interest for one year is certainly huge.

359. Marz says:

INC also keeps teaching about morality and brags about their members different from other groups in following the teachings. Yet, how many INC women were already pregnant when they got married. Some were even already 4 to 5 months pregnant. The INC leadership covers this up. It’s no surprising because some of the pregnant women were daughters of the head deacons or deacons.

Another common trick male members or even female members do to justify their relationship with non-members is to say they are missionizing their non-members friends. Oh how the leadership loves this. They have one soul to be converted.

INC Ministers are like sales managers who are given target or quota because their year end bonuses depend on how many people they have converted, how much collection from Thanksgiving have increased. Those are strictly being taken into account. Non-performing ministers unless they are well connected to the upper leadership would be assign somewhere which is less attractive.

360. Truth says:

TO MARZ

“CHRISTMAS”

Book: The Handbook of Catholic Practice
Catherine M. Frederick says;
(Page 176) Formerly CHRISTMAS was CELEBRATED on JANUARY 6, but POPE JULIUS I, at the beginning of the fourth century, CHANGED the day TO DECEMBER 25, since the ACTUAL DATE IS UNKNOWN.

Apart from the general good feeling that permeates man’s world and the obvious commercial aspect of what they call CHRISTMAS, not many truly understand the HISTORY of this annual event.

BUT WAS THIS CUSTOM OBSERVED BY THE EARLY CHRISTIANS OR DO THEY COMMEMORATE THE BIRTH OF THE LORD AND ON DECEMBER 25 AT THAT?

Book: The New Schaff-Herzog Encylodpedia of Religious Knolwege and Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire says;
(Vol. 3, Page 47) and (Page 249) There is no historical evidence that our Lord’s birthday was celebrated during the apostolic or early postapostolic times

SO WHEN DID THE CELEBRATION OF CHRISTMAS BEGIN?

Book: Handbook of Christian Feast and Customs and The Externals of the Catholic Church says;

(Page 60) and (Page 204) Soon after the END OF THE LAST GREAT PERSECUTION, about the YEAR 330, the Church in Rome definitely assigned DECEMBER 25 for the celebration of the birth of Christ. For a while, many Easter Churches continued to keep other dates, but toward the end of the FOURTH CENTURY the Roman custom became universal.

HOW OLD IS CHRISTMAS?

This CATHOLIC AUTHOR clearly states THAT THE EARLY CHRISTIANS DID NOT CELEBRATE THE BIRTH OF JESUS and the commemoration of such was not included in the list of Church festivals during its early years. (The Externals of the Catholic Church, written by John F. Sullivan)

BUT WHY WAS THAT DATE CHOSEN?

The choice of December 25 was INFLUENCED by the fact that the Romans, from the time of EMPEROR AURELIAN has CELEBRATED THE FEAST OF THE SUN GOD called BIRTHDAY OF THE SUN and GREAT PAGAN RELIGIOUS CELEBRATIONS OF THE MITHRA’S CULT were held all through the empire.

Book: Roman Catholic Church: UN RV Roman History
The Mithraic cult as practiced by Romans became highly connected with the vitality of Roman society

So what many people are celebrating December 25 nowadays has its ROOTS FROM PAGANISM. In reality, it is NOT CHRIST who is being HONORED on his supposed birthday, BUT A PAGAN GOD.

WHAT IS PAGAN?

Source: Pagan Federation Int’l says;
Pagans follow multiple Gods (God Father, God Son and God Holy Spirit example) and Goddesses

True Christians says;
(Ephesian 4:17) Here then is my word to you, and I urge it on you IN THE LORD’S NAME: GIVE UP LIVING AS PAGANS DO with their futile notions.

WHAT OTHER THINGS PAGAN DO?

The USE of CHRISTMAS LANTERNS, CANDLES and CHRISTMAS TREE/fir/BAAL-BERITH (The Two Babylons or the Papal Worship written by Alexander Hislop page 97) were EQUALLY lighted BY the PAGANS on the eve of the FESTIVAL of the BABYLONIAN GOD, to do HONOUR TO HIM.

WHAT IS BAAL-BERITH REFERRING TO THE CHRISTMAS TREE OR FIR?

Baal-Berith was the GOD OF THE CANAANITE CITY, who later came to be VIEWED AS the DEMON Baalberith BY CHRISTIAN demonology.

BUT DOES THE BIBLE TELL US TO CELEBRATE THE BIRTH OF JESUS?

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible, particularly the New Testament, that specifies December 25 to be the birth date of the Lord Jesus.

CAN WE BE CERTAIN AS TO THE RIGHT AND EXACT DATE OF THE BIRTH OF JESUS?

Book: Collier’s Encyclopedia, Vol. VI says;

(Page 403) It is IMPOSSIBLE TO DETERMINE the exact date of the birth of Christ, either from the evidence of the gospels, or from any sound tradition.

True Christians says;
(Luke 2:1-2 Ibid) Roman emperor, Augustus, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the Roman Empire. 2 This was the first census taken

(Luke 2:4-5 Ibid) Joseph had to go to Bethlehem in Judea, 5 He took with him Mary now obviously pregnant.

(Luke 2:6-7 Ibid) while they were there, the time came for her baby to be born, Mary gave birth to her first child, a son.

(Luke 2:8 )That night there were shepherds staying in the fields nearby, guarding their flocks of sheep.

Book: The Catholic Encylopedia
Chrles G. Herbermann says;
(Christmas, Vol III, Paage 726) The Roman census could not have been taken during the winter season and shepherds could not have risked exposing their flocks at night during such season, IN view of this the BIRTH DATE OF JESUS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DECEMBER 25.

It is simply because the BIBLE DOES NOT COMMAND US TO CELEBRATE CHRIST’S BIRTH ANNUALLY in the same way that the people of this world do. We can’t just invent the date, which many religious groups have already done. Doing so would be a lie, and undoubtedly, a celebration of Christ’s birthday anchored on a lie is in not way giving Jesus the honors due to Him, but instead insulting Him (Christ) who is the upholder of truth.

But more compelling reason is that the DECEMBER 25 TRADITION IS NOT ONLY ANTI-BIBLICAL and ANTI-CHRISTIAN, but also PAGAN in ORIGIN.﻿

361. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

If your birth certificate was lost, will you not celebrate your birthday? If you celebrate the birth and death of Manalo, why don’t you celebrate the birth and death of Christ? If INC does not know the day of Jesus’s birth and death, it could have designated days for these events to be celebrated by INC members. But INC did not, but continued to critique Catholics for celebrating Christmas and Easter. Is Manalo greater than Christ? Is your Church the Iglesia ni Manalo and not Iglesia ni Cristo?

Translation: “Kung ang birth certificate mo ay nawala, hindi ka na ba magdiriwang ng araw ng iyong kapanakan? Kung pinagdiriwang ng INC and kapanganakan at pagkamatay ni Manalo, bakit hindi ipinagdiriwang ng INC ang kapanganakan at pagkamatay ni Cristo. Kung hindi alam ng INC ang mga araw na ito, maari namang magtakda ang INC ng mga araw ng pagdiriwang. Subalit hindi ito ginawa ng INC. Sa halip, tuloy na kinukutya ng INC and Simbahang Katoliko sa pagdaraos ng Pasko at Easter. Mas matimbang ba si Manalo kay Cristo? Ang simbahan nyo ba Iglesia ni Manalo at hindi Iglesia ni Cristo?

362. forwarded says:

Sir Quirino, do you concede that the Catholic Christmas has pagan origins? Your response didn’t address that point. It was primarily directed at INC’s “alleged” Christmas-like celebration of Felix Manalo’s birth.

For the information of readers, INC members do not celebrate the birth of Felix Manalo ala Christmas. May 10 is not an official church feast. We are not in anyway required to prepare food, skip work, or meditate all day.

363. forwarded says:

The exact birth date of Christ is unknown. That being the case, INC members are instead asked to live righteous lives to give honor to Christ. There is no better way of celebrating Christ than to live the life that he lived each passing day.

364. forwarded says:

As to why not just celebrate Christmas on a date other than the 25th, Truth’s post already provided the answer. And I quote —

“We can’t just invent the date, which many religious groups have already done. Doing so would be a lie, and undoubtedly, a celebration of Christ’s birthday anchored on a lie is in not way giving Jesus the honors due to Him, but instead insulting Him (Christ) who is the upholder of truth.”

365. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Forwarded,

Similarity of forms does not necessarily imply inheritance, e.g. since birds and bats both fly, it does not follow that bats are the offspring of birds. For the case of Christmas, there are three possibilities: (1) Christmas is borrowed from a Pagan Winter Solstice celebration, (2) a Pagan Winter Solstice celebration is borrowed from Christmas, and (3) neither feasts borrowed from each other. If we can neither rigorously prove any of these three propositions, your guess is as good as mine with 33% chance of success. You shall bet on the first, I bet on the second, and we shall know the answer after we die when we meet Jesus as the Just Judge.

It is true that there are previous cults (e.g. Mithras) prior to Christianity, with Mithras being a wise man like Christ. But there is something astonishingly paradoxical in Catholic Faith that marks it distinct from Paganism. In Paganism, man with his supreme efforts can become a deity (e.g Hercules); in Catholicism, God the Son became a helpless baby, the Son of Man. In Paganism, man worships goddesses like Venus and Astarte; in Catholicism, Mary, a daughter of Eve, became the Mother of God yet remains only human. The pagan gods are promising wealth, fame, glory; Christ promises heaven but only through the humiliation of the cross. If Catholicism is simply a new Paganism, why did the Roman Emperors persecute Catholics for more than 300 years and why did the Roman Empire have to give up its pantheon of gods including Mithras before converting to Christianity? Paganism is incompatible with Catholicism. The Catholic Church has always been countercultural: the Church eradicated crucifixion, gladiators, and slavery and developed the teachings on Just War, Social Justice, and Human Rights. The Catholic Church has a vitality that can only be explained by its divine institution.

The Catholic Church is universal, a mustard tree that gives home to all the nations of the earth. Yet the church is also local because it sends its roots to all the cultures of the world, purifying what is good, and rejecting the bad. So the Church adopted the pagan symbols like Christmas trees and baptized them as Christian symbols (read the lyrics of “O Tannenbaum”), in the same way as the Church accepts little children and adult sinners into its fold and baptizes them as adopted sons and daughters of God. The Church assimilates local cultures as man eats food: the nutrients remain with the body; the rest goes out as feces and urine. The Catholic Church remains the same Catholic Church founded by Christ: the mustard seed became a great tree, the baby became a man.

366. Marz says:

367. seeker says:

Non-INC always say INC was founded by Felix Manalo which is wrong. INC was founded by Christ Himself. Manalo was the Messenger of God but not the one who established the church. There’s the so called “Apostasy”.

Christmas. There’s no need to argue about this tradition. Common sense tells us that Jesus could not have been born in December which is Winter. The Bible says He was naked in a manger. If this is so, then He would have been frozen to death. And the Bible speaks of Shepherds taking care of the sheep when Jesus was born. So, it could not have been the month of December. Some historians say Jesus was born around April. But who cares about which month He was born. Some argue that as long as He was born, that’s all what matters. To say that one can lose his birth certificate and still celebrate his Christmas. Jesus was no ordinary Man. His exact date of birth should have been recorded and not merely guessing. What the month of Christmas was picked is something we all should ask. Does it confirm the argument that His birth was made to coincide the celebration of Pagan God Sol Invictus?

368. Marz says:

Every religion has a little of pagan origin. INC also has her rituals during the worship service. Attend one INC wedding and you shall see they follow what other religions do like exchanging rings. The Minister doesn’t even bring the Bible when officiating the wedding. What he brings and reads is a copy of notes. Not only that, INC newly wed couple has those traditions at the reception such as putting money on their clothes; the man removing his wife’s stocking, throwing the flower to see who’s going to be married next. All these are rituals and traditions copied from other churches. Where’s the originality of INC?

369. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

1. Tell me the exact date when the Church apostasized. What did the Church said or did that you think it apostasized?

2. It is possible that winter at the time of Jesus’s birth can be tolerable, for there is also such a thing as climate change.

3. If INC claims to be the true Church of Christ, then INC should know better than the Catholic Church when Jesus was born.

4. The only information that we have about Jesus’s birth is found in the Gospels. Surprisingly, no one of the evangelists were present during the time of Jesus birth. The only reliable witness that the evangelists knew is Mary, the Mother of Christ, for she was there when Jesus was born, when He made his first miracle, when He was crucified on the cross, and when the apostles gathered during the Feast of the Pentecost. And Mary kept all these things in her heart.

370. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

The Catholic Encyclopedia has an excellent article on the history of the Dec 25 celebration of Christmas. It also contains a section on the Pagan feast of the birth of the unconquerable sun. You all may like to read more: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm. Merry Christmas!

371. artsee says:

Climate change during the birth of Christ? Smart but stupid argument. Assuming it was true, the Bible would have mentioned the weather at those time. Maybe Jesus was in a warm manger equipped with heater.

There were two Marys the Bible mentioned. Of course only Mary could have witnessed her own birth. If there were angels, they too. When Jesus was crucified, died on the Cross and resurrected, the Bible mentioned more of the other Mary…Mary Magdalene. All throughout Jesus’ ministry, Magdalene was always with Jesus and in fact, she was His favorite Apostle.

Why tell us to read the Catholic Encyclopedia about Christmas when it’s biased? Just read the dictionary and look for the word “Christmas” and you shall find its definition.

372. seeker says:

RH solon slams Church on ‘terrorism’ tag

LOOK who’s talking about terrorism.

House Minority Leader Edcel Lagman, a staunch advocate of the controversial Reproductive Bill, assailed the Catholic Business Conference of the Philippines for its latest broadside against the proposed law when it called the proposal a “glaring threat” to Filipinos in the coming year.

Lagman called the CBCP’s statements the “height of antediluvian hyperbole” and turned the tables on the Catholic church for its own history of “terrorism.”

In a statement, Lagman said the church has “conveniently labeled ‘terroristic’” any activities or thinking that ran counter to its teachings.

“The history of Christianity is so engulf in terrorism from the persecution of early Christians to the counter-persecution of both heretics and believers to preserve the hegemony of the Roman Cahtolic Church particularly during the Inquisitions,” Lagman noted.

“These acts of church terrorism extended to the Philippines during the Spanish colonial period which was dominated by the Church and are perpetuated today with threats of excommunication against perceived religious dissenters like RH and pro-women advocates,” the Bicol lawmaker added.

373. forwarded says:

Sir Quirino was basically saying that:

1. December 25 may or may not have been pagan inspired.

2. Assuming it was intentionally made to coincide with the feast of the Sun God, there is really nothing wrong with that. The Catholic Church has, in other instances, adopted pagan symbols (e.g. Christmas trees) and baptized them as Christian in the same way as the Church accepts little children and adult sinners into its fold and baptizes them as adopted sons and daughters of God.

I don’t want to spoil the yuletide celebration but I feel obliged to raise a few comments. Again, I don’t intend to offend anyone. Wala pong personalan…

1. History books say, and Catholic authorities do not categorically deny, that the celebration of Christ’s birth on the 25th traces its roots to the pagan feast of the unconquerable sun. To insist that it may not have been pagan inspired, in my opinion, is plain intransigence.

2. The Bible in Ephesians 4:17 is quite clear in saying that Christians must “give up living as pagans do.” The Catholic Church’s adoption of pagan rituals and practices, the celebration Christmas on the 25th and the use of Christmas trees, among others, violates this clear mandate of the Bible.

3. The adoption of pagan symbols and practices cannot be likened to the assimilation of former sinners into the fold. The latter is expressly allowed while the former is prohibited.

4. With the adoption of pagan rituals and practices, the Catholic Church cannot realistically claim that it’s the same Church of Christ mentioned in the Bible. A slapdash scrutiny would reveal that the two are very different.

374. forwarded says:

Marz,

Your analogy doesn’t seem to be in point. Practices at the wedding reception (i.e. the putting of money on the newlyweds’ clothes, the removal of the bride’s stockings, the throwing of flowers to see who’s going to be married next) are not INC sanctioned traditions. The celebration of Christmas on the 25th, on the other hand, is an official Catholic feast. Take note also that these reception practices are done outside of the INC chapel and are devoid of any religious significance.

375. laycarmelite says:

Forwarded,

Is exchanging rings during the INC marriage rite an INC sanctioned practice?

Is using of water during your INC baptism an INC sanctioned ritual?

376. laycarmelite says:

William J. Tighe, a Touchstone correspondent, is Associate Professor of History at Muhlenberg College.
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v

1. Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son”
instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance.

2. The idea that the date was taken from the pagans goes back to two scholars from the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries. Paul Ernst Jablonski, a German Protestant, wished to show that the celebration of Christ’s birth on December 25th was one of the many “pagan-izations” of Christianity that the Church of the fourth century embraced, as one of many “degenerations” that transformed pure apostolic Christianity into Catholicism. Dom Jean Hardouin, a Benedictine monk, tried to show that the Catholic Church adopted pagan festivals for Christian purposes without
paganizing the gospel.

3. In the Julian calendar, created in 45 b.c. under Julius Caesar, the winter solstice fell on December 25th, and it therefore seemed obvious to Jablonski and Hardouin that the day must have had a pagan significance before it had a Christian one. But in fact, the date had no religious significance in the Roman pagan festal calendar before Aurelian’s time, nor did the cult of the sun play a prominent role in Rome before him.

4. There were two temples of the sun in Rome, one of which (maintained by the clan into which Aurelian was born or adopted) celebrated its dedication festival on August 9th, the other of which celebrated its dedication festival on August 28th. But both of these cults fell into neglect in the second century, when eastern cults of the sun, such as Mithraism, began to win a following in Rome. And in any case, none of these cults, old or new, had festivals associated with solstices or equinoxes.

As things actually happened, Aurelian, who ruled from 270 until his
assassination in 275, was hostile to Christianity and appears to have promoted the establishment of the festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Sun” as a device to unify the various pagan cults of the Roman Empire around a commemoration of the annual “rebirth” of the sun. He led an empire that appeared to be collapsing in the face of internal unrest, rebellions in the provinces, economic decay, and repeated attacks from
German tribes to the north and the Persian Empire to the east.

In creating the new feast, he intended the beginning of the lengthening of
the daylight, and the arresting of the lengthening of darkness, on
December 25th to be a symbol of the hoped-for “rebirth,” or perpetual
rejuvenation, of the Roman Empire, resulting from the maintenance of the
worship of the gods whose tutelage (the Romans thought) had brought Rome
to greatness and world-rule. If it co-opted the Christian celebration, so
much the better.

5. Thus, December 25th as the date of the Christ’s birth appears to owe
nothing whatsoever to pagan influences upon the practice of the Church
during or after Constantine’s time. It is wholly unlikely to have been the
actual date of Christ’s birth, but it arose entirely from the efforts of
early Latin Christians to determine the historical date of Christ’s death.

And the pagan feast which the Emperor Aurelian instituted on that date in
the year 274 was not only an effort to use the winter solstice to make a
political statement, but also almost certainly an attempt to give a pagan
significance to a date already of importance to Roman Christians. The
Christians, in turn, could at a later date re-appropriate the pagan “Birth
of the Unconquered Sun” to refer, on the occasion of the birth of Christ,
to the rising of the “Sun of Salvation” or the “Sun of Justice.”

377. Marz says:

How could my analogy be not in point? If INC members are true in their belief and faith, then they should practice the same in or out of the INC Chapel. That’s plain hypocrisy. God’s teaching is very clear: Don’t do what the world does. So by doing what non-members do outside of the chapel, they still are wrong.

Funny, INC does not exchange gifts during Christmas but members do during New Year. And was Jesus really born on December 25? No one knows. It’s just a birth date. Mr. Sugon could be correct in saying there might have climate change at that time. It was 2,000 years ago. Climate might be different like it is now when the climate is changing.

378. forwarded says:

Marz,

The INC does not require, and in fact discourages its members from doing, these reception practices. The fault of the members is not the fault of the Church.

379. forwarded says:

Laycarmelite,

The exchanging of rings is not an INC sanctioned practice. You can get married with or without rings. With respect to the use of water, yes it is. The INC observes the biblical way of baptism, which is immersion in water. Receiving baptism in the church of Christ is necessary for one to become a disciple of Christ, to be forgiven of sin, and to have hope for salvation. (Acts 8:38; john 3:23; Rom. 6:3-5; Matt. 28:19; Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16)

380. Marz says:

The fault of the members is not the fault of the church. Look who’s talking. INC criticizes Catholics for their wrong doings and blames the Catholic Church as well.

381. laycarmelite says:

forwarded,
if exchanging of rings is not an INC sanctioned practice then why do some INC do it? where is its consistency?

FYI, water baptism by immersion is of pagan origin.

can you cite the verse that explicitly tells that baptism by immersion is the biblical way. thanks.

382. seeker says:

Jesus was baptized in the river by Apostle John. Sprinkling of water was invented by Catholic Church for convenience.

383. forwarded says:

laycarmelite,

Matthew 3:16 reads: “As soon as Jesus was baptized, HE WENT UP out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.” It is clear from the above quoted verse that Jesus was IMMERSED by John into the water. One cannot WENT UP without being dipped.

If it’s not too much to ask, can you cite any verse in the bible that supports the Catholic Church’s practice of baptism by sprinkling/pouring?

384. forwarded says:

Marz,

I’m criticizing your Church’s doctrine and not your members’ wrongdoings. I’ve always refrained from hurling personal attacks (e.g. members are immoral, priests are like managers, etc ) for doing so would not prove me right.

385. seeker says:

The baptism commanded by Christ (Matthew 28:19) and preached by the Apostles is done by means of immersion in water (Romans 6:4; John 3:23; Acts 8:36-38).

386. Truth says:

DID GOD FORBID THE PRIESTS AND NUNS TO MARRY?

GOD says;
(Leviticus 21:10, 13-14 Ibid) 10 The high priest 13 The woman he marries must be a virgin. 14 He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people
(1 Timothy 3:2 Ibid) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife

DID ANYONE OR A NUN WHO MARRIES COMMIT SIN?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(I Corinthians 7:28 Ibid) But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned

WHOM TEACHING THAT THE PRIESTS AND NUNS FORBID TO MARRY?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(I Timothy 4:1) The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

ANTI CHRIST – CONTRADICT AND AGAINST THE TEACHING OF CHRIST. AS THEIR TEACHING PRIEST AND NUNS ARE SEVERELY JUDGE BY GOD AND CANNOT BE MARRIED WHERE CHRIST TEACHING THEY ARE ALLOWED TO MARRIED AND NOT SINNED AGAINST THEM.

CHECK THIS WEBSITE YOU WILL FIND THE APOSTASY CHURCH.

CHECK THIS OUT: HAVE YOU READ THIS FULL AND DON’T UNDERSTAND?

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

387. Steve says:

Wow. Isn’t this much like the war described in Gulliver’s Travels, over which end of an egg to open, the pointy one or the round one? Or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? In what way does any of this affect the cosmos, except to detract from that which Jesus commanded us, “To love one another?” John 13:34-35.

This is the only commandment Jesus gave in his ministry, and we’ve ignored it to our own hazard

388. artsee says:

What a question ! Priests marrying Nuns? But there are reports that some priests and nuns are having romantic relations. When the nuns get pregnant, they are sent to far away provinces usually convent. Then, they bury the infants at the back of the convent. If authorities would dare investigate and dig the backyard of the convents, they would be shocked to find skeletons of the dead babies.

389. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

If you believe in these unbiblical reports, then it is indeed possible that the Bible alone cannot be the sole criteria for truth. Catholics have also something similar and it is called “Oral Tradition”: the knowledge handed down from the apostles. As Paul said, “I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.” (1 Cor 11:2)

Priests are also sinners like us. They can also be tempted like us. They can also fall into sin like us. But despite their sinfulness, they still have the divine authority to forgive sins (though they cannot forgive their own sin but must confess them to a fellow priest). It still remains, however, that their illicit affairs gives scandal to the faithful because the celibacy is a discipline imposed on all priests of the Latin Rite (Roman Catholic). Scandal is a grave matter. As Christ said:

“Whoever causes one of these little ones 5 who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 6 Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!” (Mt 18:6-7)

FYI, Maria Clara was Padre Damaso’s daughter.

390. artsee says:

As expected, what we get from Catholic apologists is that the priests are also human and sinners. Yet, they claim they have the authority to forgive sins. A sinner forgiving another sinner? The Bible is clear: Only Jesus did not commit sin and He’s the only one Who can forgive sins.

Oral tradition? If during those times there were tape recorders, we might be convinced. If you check the Catholic teachings and traditions, many of these were just invented.

391. seeker says:

Priests are also sinners but they don’t practice what they preach.

392. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

What would you like us Catholic apologists to say? That our priests are angels like Felix Manalo? No, our priests are humans and sinners who also need forgiveness.

The apostles are men and they are sinners for they abandoned Christ in Gethsemane, and foremost among them is Peter himself who denied Christ three times. But what did Christ say to them after His resurrection?

14 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 16 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (Jn 20:21-23)

Apostle James also said:

Is anyone among you sick? 6 He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. (James 5:16)

The word “priest” is just a shorthand for “presbyter”. http://www.answers.com/topic/presbyter

As you can see, the Catholic position is literally biblical.

393. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

Jesus did not say, “Go out into the whole world and play my tape-recorded message.” But what did He say? When he sent the 72 disciples to preach in the towns, he said to them:

“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Lk 10:16)

394. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

You said: “Priests are also sinners but they don’t practice what they preach.”

Well, the pharisees are also sinners and they don’t practice what they preach. But what did Christ say about them? Obey them still because they have the authority to teach:

“The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.”

The pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses as interpreter of the law. During Moses’ time, because there are too many cases to judge, he appointed judges all over Israel:

“Moses followed the advice of his father-in-law and did all that he had suggested. He picked out able men from all Israel and put them in charge of the people as officers over groups of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens. They rendered decisions for the people in all ordinary cases. The more difficult cases they referred to Moses, but all the lesser cases they settled themselves.” (Ex 18:24-26)

That was in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, who are the Judges over the Church, the New Kingdom of God? The Apostles:

Jesus said to them, “Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28)

This is the reason why the Catholic Church celebrates the Feast of the Chair of Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chair_of_Saint_Peter). The present pope is the successor of Peter as bishop of Rome. He, too, is a sinner like us, but unlike us, he has the divine authority to teach. So let us listen to him and to all bishops and priests in communion with him.

395. artsee said… “What a question ! Priests marrying Nuns? But there are reports that some priests and nuns are having romantic relations. When the nuns get pregnant, they are sent to far away provinces usually convent. Then, they bury the infants at the back of the convent. If authorities would dare investigate and dig the backyard of the convents, they would be shocked to find skeletons of the dead babies.”

CD: I pity you artsee for believing in hearsay. Yes, we do admit that there were Catholic priests and nuns who fell into sin but having secret illicit romantic relationship and having babies being aborted and buried behind the convent was proven to be a hearsay story circulated by anti-Catholics and bigots but NO priest or nun have been proven to have done such horrific crime against the unborn.

You want to DEMONIZE Catholic priests and nuns as if they are worst that soulless abortionists who kills the unborn.

To tell you what, it’s a story by an ANTI-CATHOLIC named JACK T. CHICK whose bigotry you subscribed just to get over the Catholic Church.. kaawa-awang nilalang. “Tunay” bang Kristiano ang katulad mo? I highly doubt it!!!

396. seeker says:

1 dead, 560 hurt in cult tradition

The above was the headline in one local newspaper. While the Bishops and Catholic leadership tell the flock to discipline themselves and avoid such violent devotion, they are actually encouraging the members to celebrate these feasts.

397. artsee says:

All you can say is “hearsay”. That’s a common excuse. Let me tell you a little background.

I graduated from Xavier High School. We had a priest who acted as our guidance counselor. All of us were called to his office regularly for some spiritual advice. Whenever I was called, he always placed his hand on my thigh asking if I had masturbated.

I entered Ateneo in college. At that time, the school neighbor’s female school was called Maryknoll (now Miriam). It was an open secret that an Ateneo Jesuit was having an affair with a Maryknoll nun. Open secret because they were seen dating at night. Hearsay?
I was among those who witnessed it.

What a convenient way to say that even if the priests commit sins, they still have the authority to forgive and should be obeyed. How can a blind lead another blind? One must lead by example.

398. laycarmelite says:

Forwarded wrote:
Matthew 3:16 reads: “As soon as Jesus was baptized, HE WENT UP out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.” It is clear from the above quoted verse that Jesus was IMMERSED by John into the water. One cannot WENT UP without being dipped.

I believe that you didn’t get my question. I am asking where in the bible that Jesus and the apostles taught that the MANNER of baptism should be done by immersion.

Where in the passage that tells Jesus was immersed?

Ang ibig mo bang sabihin ay kapag sinabing umahon, yung nakalubog
lang ang pwedeng umahon?

Ganito bro, lumusong ka sa ilog ng hanggang baywang at pagkatapos
ay bumalik ka sa pampang.

Ano ang tawag mo doon?

Forwarded wrote:
If it’s not too much to ask, can you cite any verse in the bible that supports the Catholic Church’s practice of baptism by sprinkling/pouring?

I will answer this once you have proven that Baptism by Immersion is the MANNER (PARAAN) taught explicitly by the Bible.

399. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

May God judge them for the scandal they have caused. We are in the End Times; Satan has swept a third of the stars and hurled them down to earth (Rv 12:4). As Sr. Lucy of Our Lady of Fatima said, ““Father, the devil is about to wage a decisive battle with the Blessed Virgin, as he knows what it is that offends God the most, and in a short space of time will gain for him the greatest number of souls. Thus the devil does everything to overcome the souls consecrated to God, because in this way he will succeed in leaving the souls of the faithful abandoned by their leaders, thereby the more easily will he seize them.”” Priests committing grave offenses (for example, a priest forgives the woman he had sex with) are punished by defrocking (http://www.vatican.va/resources/resources_introd-storica_en.html). I shall pray for your healing.

“What a convenient way to say that even if the priests commit sins, they still have the authority to forgive and should be obeyed.”

If they teach what the Catholic Church teaches, then the priests must be obeyed. If they teach their own opinions, you are free to disobey. For example, some apparitions of our Lady, except those recognized by the Church like at Fatima, you are free not to believe that the apparitions really happened, yet you remain as a good Catholic. There is a hierarchy of Catholic truth. Not all statements are equal in weight.

Does the efficacy of the sacrament depend on the state of the soul of the priest performing them? This is an old question which was tackled in the Council of Trent (1547) . The answer is echoed in the present Catechism of the Catholic Church: “No.”

1128 This is the meaning of the Church’s affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: “by the very fact of the action’s being performed”), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that “the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God.”50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

So when the priest says to you in the confessional that your sins are forgiven, you are 100% sure that your sins are forgiven, even if he has committed the most grievous of sins.

400. Marz says:

Question: Was Felix Manalo baptized by immersion?

401. forwarded says:

laycarmelite,

He WENT UP out of the water is not the same as he WENT OUT of the water. Pag sinabing he WENT UP, ibig sabihin galing sa ilalim or nakalubog. Yung pagbalik sa pampang mula sa ilog na hanggang baywang is an act of GOING OUT of the water and not of GOING UP out of the water.

I don’t have to prove anything to you. Maliwanag naman yung Matthew 3:16. Now cite your biblical basis and let’s leave it up to the readers.

402. forwarded says:

Marz,

Do you concede that baptism by immersion was what was practiced by the early Christians? I honestly don’t know if he was baptized.

403. Artsee…

You witnessed yourself how a priest and a nun had an “illicit” relationship at Ateneo? AND YOU DID NOTHING to EXPOSE their scandalous relationship?

you know for a fact that a priest and a nun had commitment to the Lord and that they are bound not to engage in any sexual relationship, and yet YOU SIMPLY DID NOTHING to expose them? And now you are USING it to BRING DOWN other souls down to your own misgivings?

You are unbelievable. You know that what they were doing is SCANDALOUS and CONTRARY to what you expect them as priest and nun but YOU DID NOTHING!! Why blame the whole Catholic Church and our priests and nuns just because YOU DID NOTHING TO END THEIR ILLICIT RELATIONSHIP! Blame yourself alone coz you tolerated them…

The reason why there are many abusers in the priesthood is because there are PEOPLE like you who watched only, DOING NOTHING to save the CHURCH and the FAITHFUL. In other words, you are accomplice to the CRIME for not reporting it.

You expected too much from the Catholic Church’ priests and nuns and that’s something very commendable. However do not forget that they are humans. They have the same feelings and they are also tempted as we are. They are not ANGELS. They are not “Last Messengers” or “SUGOs”. They are not EQUAL to CHRIST. They do not claim anything except that Jesus called them to a consecrated life of chastity, poverty and obedience. They claim nothing but priests of the Lord and are still 100% human.

404. artsee says:

Catholic defender (apologist), you asked why I did not expose it? What’s the use? It was the talk of the town. The foreign Jesuit returned to his country for new assignment while the nun was transferred to the Province. And that’s how the Catholic Church has been doing for centuries…denials and cover ups. Despite expose and formal complaints, erring priests and even bishops are usually transferred to other parishes or diocese. This is not only the practice in the Philippines but around the world. We all hear about the cases involving priests in America, Europe and other countries. The church spent and continues to spend huge sum of money to settle the cases. Millions of dollars.

Your last paragraph sounds like a broken record again. Priests are humans who commit mistakes too. You’re just echoing what the owner of this blog said as well as all other Catholic apologists. To identify if the church you belong is a true church preached by true preachers, look at her leaders if they practice what they preach…check their teachings and doctrines.

405. seeker says:

In those days, who dared expose and complain about the priests? Don’t forget who killed our national hero Dr. Jose Rizal.

406. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,
The persons who killed Jose Rizal are the soldiers who shot him in Bagumbayan.

407. seeker says:

But who gave Rizal to the soldiers? Weren’t those the Spanish Friars? Stop all these denials. The church, the Catholic Church, has been meddling in the state affairs since time immemorial. Have you forgotten the “Great Inquisition”?

408. seeker says:

And I bet you have read “El Filibusterismo” and “Noli Me Tangare” unless your priests asked you not to.

409. Marz says:

Jose Rizal was a Freemason. If Felix Manalo was also a Mason, then the two are brothers in Fraternity. If Rizal lived during the time of Manalo, he would have converted to INC.

410. artsee,

what would have happened if people allowed themselves to be scandalized by JUDAS ISCARIOT? But because more people are wiser, amidst the desire of the ENEMY to PUT down the CHURCH by bringing scandals inside the CHURCH, those wise enough looked up to Jesus, not to the scandals and remained faithful as CHRIST promised, no matter what, “the gates of hell WILL NEVER prevail.”

Christ clearly warned us that some would come in a sheeps clothing but inside are ravenous wolves. I pity you coz you allowed yourself to be affected by the scandals and so u left the Lord and searched him somewhere when in fact he clearly warned us of the coming of the deceiver.

For us Catholics, we simply enjoy our life in Christ and put our hope in the Lord’s promise of KEEPING his CHURCH until he comes back. We esteem Christ more than the many scandals and no matter what the enemies of the Church wants to prove, but Christ’s words are the surest to salvation of which we Catholics find it IRRESISTIBLE. The Hol spirit is taking care of the Church for its now 2011 YEARS more or less…

so please do not blame the entire CHURCH OF CHRIST 33AD of your own accomplices to the crime. you want to bring down people out of his Church but for us who are awake, we will keep watch over his flock and bring more souls to his FOLD. May God find favor in what we are doing in DEFENSE of HIS CHURCH!

411. artsee says:

We don’t have to put down the Catholic Church because it’s long down.
Catholics themselves destroy and put her down.

To identify a true church and true Christian, check their teachings and doctrines. This space will not be enough to enumerate the many wrong and false teachings of the Catholic Church.

412. laycarmelite says:

forwarded wrote:

He WENT UP out of the water is not the same as he WENT OUT of the water. Pag sinabing he WENT UP, ibig sabihin galing sa ilalim or nakalubog. Yung pagbalik sa pampang mula sa ilog na hanggang baywang is an act of GOING OUT of the water and not of GOING UP out of the water.

Wow, you have focused on the word “UP” in separate of the context of the text and then assumed that Jesus was immersed that is why he WENT UP OUT OF THE WATER. =) If I am going to use your assumption, immersion means WENT DOWN INTO THE WATER.

Acts 8:38 says “And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And
they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And
he baptized him.”

So that means BOTH Philip and the eunuch were immersed while Philip
was baptizing the eunuch.

The question now is this:
In INC, does the baptizer immerse himself also? Yes or No?

Forwarded wrote:
I don’t have to prove anything to you. Maliwanag naman yung Matthew 3:16. Now cite your biblical basis and let’s leave it up to the readers.

Kapatid, you have to prove many things and one of these is that baptism is to be done by immersion only. You have to give explicit biblical verse that Jesus and the apostles commanded that baptism is to be done by immersion because it will prove what kind of organization is the INC.

Cheers!!!

413. seeker says:

Just look at the many fiestas like Black Nazarene, Sto. Nino, Penafrancia, etc. being practiced by the Catholics and encouraged by the Catholic Church…check these origins and history…you get the answer. I’m reminded of one tragic but stupid fire incident when a neighbor chose to carry and save the little Sto. Nino statue instead of her baby. Deliberate or not, that’s not the point. The point is the stupid fanaticism of such false worship and beliefs verbally opposed by the priests but actually ignore since such activities benefit their parishes, increase collections, sell more merchandise.

414. seeker says:

laycamerlite, you called forwarded “kapatid”. I don’t think he would accept you as “kapatid”. Not everyone has the right to call another “brother” or “kapatid”.

Let’s pause for a moment and quit discussing about baptism by immersion. Why don’t you talk about baptism by sprinkling water which the Catholics do? Why doesn’t the priest also sprinkles water on the godparents too?

415. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

Though the Catholic Church condemns fanaticism, She encourages folk piety and devotions if they help the faithful become better Christians.

If you think that procession of images are unbiblical, read the Book of Joshua and the Ark of the Covenant:

“When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD, your God, which the levitical priests will carry, you must also break camp and follow it, that you may know the way to take, for you have not gone over this road before. But let there be a space of two thousand cubits between you and the ark. Do not come nearer to it.” (Jos 3:3-4)

If you have not seen the Ark of the Covenant, it looks idolatrous to INC standards:

“They shall make a sanctuary for me, that I may dwell in their midst. This Dwelling and all its furnishings you shall make exactly according to the pattern that I will now show you. “You shall make an ark of acacia wood, two and a half cubits long, one and a half cubits wide, and one and a half cubits high. Plate it inside and outside with pure gold, and put a molding of gold around the top of it…. Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory, fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end. The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory.” (Ex 25).

Images prescribed by God are not idols but are holy things. And the Ark of the Covenant is so holy that a man who touches it dies:

“When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God and steadied it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the LORD was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God.” (2 Sam 6:6-7)

416. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

Indeed the Catholic Church has been long down. Its founder, Jesus Christ, was killed on the Cross. His apostles fled when Jesus was arrested in Gethsemane. Peter, to whom Jesus entrusted the keys of the kingdom of God, denied Jesus three times. But surprisingly, Jesus was raised from the dead. Peter made amends by saying thrice that he loved Jesus. The cowardly apostles were given the gifts of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost. And the Catholic Church celebrates the Feast of the Pentecost as its birthday.

The Catholic Church has been long down. The Roman empire persecuted Catholics. They were fed to the lions, killed with a sword, or burned on the stake. But after 300 years, the Catholics remained, and the Roman empire was soon converted to the Catholic Faith.

The Catholic Church has been long down, but after 2000 years it is still standing up like a city set on a hill. The Protestants have tried to destroy the Catholic Church, but like a great wave hitting a huge rock, the Protestants break up into tiny pieces. The Church of England, one of the roots of Protestantism, is now on the process of being converted to the Catholic Church and you now see priest, entire parishes, influential bishops of the Anglican church going back to the Catholic fold since Pope Benedict XVI published his Anglicanorum Coetibus in 2009 http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus_en.html

417. artsee said..
We don’t have to put down the Catholic Church because it’s long down.
Catholics themselves destroy and put her down.
To identify a true church and true Christian, check their teachings and doctrines. This space will not be enough to enumerate the many wrong and false teachings of the Catholic Church.”

SAYS WHO? Says Felix Manalo who was an ex-Catholic, ex-Protestant? Lol.. u must be kidding man.

If the Catholic Church is down why is it that we still exist and it’s our 2011th year (compared to your 96th year founding anniversary).

Felix Manalo FULFILLED Biblical prophesy by turning up against the Church but no matter what, Christ said “the gates of hell will not prevail…” (Mt. 16).

Now show me, where in the Bible can we find that the Church will apostatized?

Nothing! Instead the Bible is clear about the COMING of deceivers and apostates and Felix Manalo EXACTLY fulfilled those….

Thanks, at least for that matter, I believe the Bible is telling the truth that Felix Manalo is the fulfillment of many prophesies.

418. seeker says:

Mr. Sugon, I was surprised at your saying participating in Fiestas and fanaticism make them better Christians. Maybe you mean blind and false Christians. How can they become better Christians holding, raising, touching, kissing the statues? Take the Quiapo Fiesta for example: Thousands and millions of fanatics push, kick, elbow, hurt one another just to be near the rope and statue. After the Fiesta and procession, they did not become better Christians but were hospitalized or killed.

419. artsee says:

“Peter, to whom Jesus entrusted the keys of the kingdom of God, denied Jesus three times. But surprisingly, Jesus was raised from the dead. Peter made amends by saying thrice that he loved Jesus.”

Allow me to respond to the above statement “Jesus was raised from the dead.” Who raised Him from the dead? Did Jesus raise Himself up? Did He resurrect Himself? Clearly, it was God Who resurrected and raised Jesus. If Jesus was God, why would another God raise Jesus?

You missed the whole point about “Catholic Church has been long down.” It was put down not by her enemies but Catholics themselves. Your own priests, bishops, popes. For centuries and in the early times, who dared go against the Roman Catholic Church?
The state was afraid of the church. The state was forced to give in to the church’s dictates. Even today, you see a Catholic Parish Church beside every city and municipal hall. Why? To take care of the souls of these city and municipal workers? Of course not. But to continue meddling and influencing the local government.

In the past, who dared complain against an abusive priest? How could one report and complain against a priest who molested and raped her? The girl’s family would be the first to hide such scandal for fear of ridicule, embarrassment and retaliation from the church. Today, people are more courageous. The media is more open and does not hesitate to expose the church’s wrong doings. They are not the ones putting the Catholic Church down. The Catholic leaders and the Catholics themselves.

420. seeker says:

Quirino, why did you delete my rebuttal to your response? It was about the Fiestas and the fanaticism of the Catholics. Being the owner and moderator of this Blog, you are free to do what you want but I think you should be fair. You don’t make your points and argue then delete mine.

421. seeker says:

I apologize for the above comments. When I logged in hours ago, I did not see my post and it is only now that it shows up. Something must be wrong with this system. Thanks for posting.

422. forwarded says:

Laycarmelite,

You’re asking me to prove that baptism is to be done by immersion only. Is that an admission na meron ngang baptism by immersion sa bible? Christ and the apostles didn’t explicitly say that baptism should be done by immersion only. Baptism by immersion, however, was what was practiced by them kaya yun ang ginagawa sa INC. Kung sinasabi mo na meron pang other way of baptizing (like sprinkling or pouring), I think it’s your burden to cite verses supporting your claim. Wala kang mapapatunayan if you keep on dodging.=)

BTW, you’re taking Acts 8:38 out of context. Ang tinutukoy ng bible sa “they both went down into the water” is yung pagbaba nila mula sa chariot tapos yung subsequent na paglusong sa tubig. Take note that the clause “and he baptized him” came after “they both went down into the water.” Nung nakalusong na sila parehas, dun pa lang nangyari yung baptism. Mali therefore na iinterpret na parehas inilubog sina Philip and yung Eunuch.

“And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; AND HE BAPTIZED HIM.” (Acts 8:38, KING JAMES VERSION)

423. forwarded says:

laycarmelite,

Taking into account what happened next, it would be absurd to interpret the phrase “he WENT UP out of the water” as “pagpunta sa pampang or lupa.” Sabi sa verse 17, at that moment, heaven was opened and the Spirit of God descended like a dove and alighted on Christ. Are you saying na naglakad muna si Christ papunta sa pampang (possibly nagpalit or nagpatuyo ng damit) bago bumaba sa kaniya ang espiritu santo?

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he WENT UP out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16-18)

424. Truth says:

What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ (Philippians 3:8)

TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. AND HIS ANGELS

Are there teaching of deceiving spirits and demons? ( 1 Timothy 4:1)

What are some teaching of demons and deceiving spirits? These are some doctrines greatly contradicts and against the words of God written in the Holy Bible.

1. They forbid people to marry: PRIEST, bishops and nuns (1 Timothy 4:3)
2. They forbid people to eat meat: LENTEN SEASON and vegetarian (1
Timothy 4:3)
3. They do standing prayers in the street: PROCESSION (Matthew 6:5)
4. They do repetitive prayers: ROSARY (Matthew 6:7)
5. They called their priest: FATHER of their soul and spirit (Matthew 23:9)
6. Vicar of Christ: POPE (Matthew 24:5, 11 & 24; Mark 13:16,22; Luke 21:8)

TO BE CONTINUED…

The Catholic Church blame God for the error of the Catholic Church teaching.
BIBLE HISTORY FOR EVERYONE
Author: PRIEST A.D.
PAGE 281 – If there were in the Catholic faith any error or danger of error we could with St. Agustine justly lay the blame on God himself: If we are deceived it is you, O lord, who have deceived us.

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

What God says about the teaching above?

Hate what is evil; cling to what is good (Romans 12:9 Ibid.)

425. seeker says:

They have not explained why the Catholic Church changed the manner of baptism. Instead of immersion, they sprinkle water. I bet you they will say it’s for convenience. That’s it. They can change, invent anything for convenience at the expense of the words of God.

426. Truth says:

Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on November 2, 2009 at 9:45 am

What I can never understand is why the INC does not still have its own website containing its official doctrines, so that I don’t have to ask an INC minister what the INC doctrines are.

Posted by Kirino on October 30, 2009 at 6:11 pm

mr. quirino.
if you had a questions and an entire doubt about our doctrine. pls do visit the minister of the INC . and then , go ask them about our doctrine, and same as your’s for your belief.

427. laycarmelite says:

forwarded wrote:
You’re asking me to prove that baptism is to be done by immersion only. Is that an admission na meron ngang baptism by immersion sa bible?

I am saking you to prove it because it is your “church’s” teaching that baptism is by immersion ONLY and that is why your ministers is condemning the Catholic Church. Also, I am asking you to prove it biblically that the manner of baptism is to be done by immersion because baptism by immersion is of PAGAN origin.

forwarded:
Christ and the apostles didn’t explicitly say that baptism should be done by immersion only.

Now we have a concrete answer. If they didn’t explicitly say it, then why do you follow it? I thought your organization is biblical.

forwarded wrote:
Baptism by immersion, however, was what was practiced by them kaya yun ang ginagawa sa INC.

Please provide a scriptural passage that baptism by immersion is what was practiced then.

forwarded wrote:
Kung sinasabi mo na meron pang other way of baptizing (like sprinkling or pouring), I think it’s your burden to cite verses supporting your claim. Wala kang mapapatunayan if you keep on dodging.=)

Hahaha. I am not dodging. I believe you are the one but now I have at least an answer. You know the MANNER of baptism is not found in the Scriptures but its MEANING can be found there. But there is no contention there. In the Catholic Church, the MANNER of administering Baptism is found in the Didache. =)

It is not my burden to cite verses because I do not subscribe to your teaching of Sola Scriptura.

428. laycarmelite says:

forwarded wrote:
Taking into account what happened next, it would be absurd to interpret the phrase “he WENT UP out of the water” as “pagpunta sa pampang or lupa.”

When did I interpret that “he WENT UP out of the water” as pagpunta sa pampang or lupa”?

Mateo 3:16-18 (Ang Salita ng Diyos)

Nang mabawtismuhan na si Jesus, kaagad siyang UMAHON mula sa tubig. Narito, ang mga langit ay nabuksan sa kaniya. Nakita ni Juan ang Espiritu ng Diyos na bumababang tulad ng isang kalapati at lumapag kay Jesus. 17Narito, isang tinig mula sa langit ang nagsabi: Ito ang pinakamamahal kong anak na labis kong kinalulugdan.

Ang ibig mo bang sabihin ay kapag sinabing umahon, yung nakalubog
lang ang pwedeng umahon?

Ganito kapatid, inuulit ko, lumusong ka sa ilog ng hanggang baywang at pagkatapos ay bumalik ka sa pampang. Ano ang tawag mo doon?

429. laycarmelite says:

seeker wrote:
laycamerlite, you called forwarded “kapatid”. I don’t think he would accept you as “kapatid”. Not everyone has the right to call another “brother” or “kapatid”.

So…Your point is what???

seeker wrote:
Let’s pause for a moment and quit discussing about baptism by immersion. Why don’t you talk about baptism by sprinkling water which the Catholics do? Why doesn’t the priest also sprinkles water on the godparents too?

No we cannot pause for a moment because BAPTISM BY IMMERSION IS OF PAGAN ORIGIN. We will pause for a moment if you have proven that baptism by immersion is EXPLICITLY TAUGHT BY CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES.

You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

430. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Laycarmelite and Forwarded,

Please try as much as possible to write in English.

431. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

Baptism by immersion and by pouring water on the head are both allowed by the Catholic Church:

1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate’s head. (Catechism 1239)

The Catholic Church has the authority to prescribe the manner of Baptism in cases when water is scarce, such as when you only have a glass of water in the middle of a desert and your Moslem friend wants to be baptized as a Christian. The salvation of man is always more important than what is normally defined in the standard laws, as seen for example in trying to save a man in a pit during Sabbath where it is forbidden to do work (c.f. Lk 14:5). And how much more important is salvation of the soul received through Baptism than physical salvation from a deep pit?

St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae has a more detailed argument:

I answer that, In the sacrament of Baptism water is put to the use of a washing of the body, whereby to signify the inward washing away of sins. Now washing may be done with water not only by immersion, but also by sprinkling or pouring. And, therefore, although it is safer to baptize by immersion, because this is the more ordinary fashion, yet Baptism can be conferred by sprinkling or also by pouring, according to Ezekiel 36:25: “I will pour upon you clean water,” as also the Blessed Lawrence is related to have baptized. And this especially in cases of urgency: either because there is a great number to be baptized, as was clearly the case in Acts 2 and 4, where we read that on one day three thousand believed, and on another five thousand: or through there being but a small supply of water, or through feebleness of the minister, who cannot hold up the candidate for Baptism; or through feebleness of the candidate, whose life might be endangered by immersion. We must therefore conclude that immersion is not necessary for Baptism.”

Who gave the Church the authority to prescribe the manner of Baptism and on other things that cannot be decided from Scriptures alone (e.g. human cloning, in vitro fertilization, etc)? Christ. As Christ promised Peter, “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:19). The Pope, the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter.

Why do we pour only water over the head and not the hands or the belly or the feet? St. Thomas Aquinas’ argument is as follows:

Reply to Objection 3. The principal part of the body, especially in relation to the exterior members, is the head, wherein all the senses, both interior and exterior, flourish. And therefore, if the whole body cannot be covered with water, because of the scarcity of water, or because of some other reason, it is necessary to pour water over the head, in which the principle of animal life is made manifest.

432. HAZZEL says:

CONVERT LNG AKO PERO MASASABI KO TALAGA NA NAPAKA GANDA NG DOKTRINA NMIN SA IGLESIA,AND TALAGANG BIBLICAL LAHAT…

433. forwarded says:

laycarmelite,

To put things to rest, can you please clarify your stand re Matthew 3:16-18? What’s your interpretation of the phrase “he went up out of the water” and why do you interpret it that way?

BTW, you didn’t rebut my interpretation of Acts 8:38. Can I assume that that has been settled? =)

434. Truth says:

TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. AND HIS ANGELS

Are there teaching of deceiving spirits and demons? ( 1 Timothy 4:1)

What are some teaching of demons and deceiving spirits? These are some doctrines greatly contradicts and against the words of God written in the Holy Bible.

1. They forbid people to marry: PRIEST, bishops and nuns (1 Timothy 4:3)
2. They forbid people to eat meat: LENTEN SEASON and vegetarian (1
Timothy 4:3)
3. They do standing prayers in the street: PROCESSION (Matthew 6:5)
4. They do repetitive prayers: ROSARY (Matthew 6:7)
5. They called their priest: FATHER of their soul and spirit (Matthew 23:9)
6. Vicar of Christ: POPE (Matthew 24:5, 11 & 24; Mark 13:16,22; Luke 21:8)
7. They wear long white clothes and teach
story tales during mass : CATHOLIC PRIEST’S
(Mt 7:15, 24:24, Mk 22:38, Romans 10:15)
8. They killed the Lord Jesus Christ & Great
Inquisition : CATHOLIC CHURCH (Jn 19:15,
Mt 20:18, 27: 41-42, 28:11-15, Lk 22:4 etc)
9. They kneel or worship relics or graven images: IDOLATRY (Ex 20:4-5, 23:24, Lv 26:1, Deut 29:17, Acts 14:15 etc)
10. All religion are same: EASY (Mt7:13, 21-23)
11. Baptizing infant or toddler by SPRINKLING/POURING (Mk 1:5, 16:16, Acts 2:38, 41, etc)
12. Sign of the Cross: MARK Forehead & hands (Rev 14:9-11, 20:14)

TO BE CONTINUED…

The Catholic Church blame God for the error of the Catholic Church teaching?

BIBLE HISTORY FOR EVERYONE
Author: PRIEST A.D.
PAGE 281 – If there were in the Catholic faith any error or danger of error we could with St. Agustine justly lay the blame on God himself: If we are deceived it is you, O lord, who have deceived us.

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/anti1.htm﻿

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

What God says about the teaching above?

Hate what is evil; cling to what is good (Romans 12:9 Ibid.)

435. forwarded says:

laycarmelite,

I suggest you read Sir Quirino’s post. It would be futile to insist that baptism by immersion is unbiblical or of pagan origin since it is recognized by the Catholic Church rin naman pala.

436. seeker says:

So, baptism by sprinkling of water is for convenience. You said the church, specifically the Catholic Church, has the authority to decide on the manner of her teachings and practices. Even if these are against the words of God?

437. For INC, history starts only after its registration of the Corporation Sole called Iglesia ni Cristo founded by Felix Manalo and is owned and managed by the MANALO CLAN.

So the rich history of the Catholic Church (more than 2,000 years old now) and the developments of its teachings based on the Scripture and Tradition cannot be understood by someone who hardly reached a hundred years of history.

St. Thomas for them is not the Bible so they wont concede. The want the Bible to speak the answer they want from us. But nowhere in the Bible we can find the names of the Manalos, not even the words “Iglesia ni Cristo” (Note the capital letter “I” in the word Iglesia). The Church of Christ founded in 33AD accepts both the sprinkling, pouring and the emmersion as valid. Fake churches and cults want only emmersion.

438. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

There is no scriptural verse that says Baptism by pouring water in the head is forbidden. If you think this is against the word of God, the proper course of action, according to the Bible, is not to consult the Bible but to consult the Church:

“If your brother 12 sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 13 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Mt 18:15-18)

In the same way, if you think that the Gloria presidency is unconstitutional, you do not quote articles in the constitution and argue with others. Arguments can go on forever. The proper course of action is to raise the issue to the Supreme Court who is the official interpreter of the Constitution.

Our only task then is to find which is the true Church founded by Christ.

439. artsee says:

Catholic Defender: There’s so called Apostasy.

Mr. Sugon: I’m astonished by your statement to consult the church instead of the Bible. Where does your church get her teachings? Aren’t the words of God written in the Bible? It only confirms that the Catholic Church does not give importance to the Bible where we must base our faith.

440. Truth says:

TO QUIRINO M.SUGON JR. AND HIS ANGELS

The Catholic Church teaching below are the teaching of demons and deceiving spirit.

Are there teaching of deceiving spirits and demons? ( 1 Timothy 4:1)

What are some teaching of demons and deceiving spirits? These are some doctrines greatly contradicts and against the words of God written in the Holy Bible.

1. They forbid people to marry: PRIEST, bishops and nuns (1 Timothy 4:3)
2. They forbid people to eat meat: LENTEN SEASON and vegetarian (1
Timothy 4:3)
3. They do standing prayers in the street: PROCESSION (Matthew 6:5)
4. They do repetitive prayers: ROSARY (Matthew 6:7)
5. They called their priest: FATHER of their soul and spirit (Matthew 23:9)
6. Vicar of Christ: POPE (Matthew 24:5, 11 & 24; Mark 13:16,22; Luke 21:8)

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/anti1.htm﻿

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

441. laycarmelite says:

Artsee wrote:
“Catholic Defender: There’s so called Apostasy.”

And when was that supposed apostasy happened?

Artsee wrote:
“Mr. Sugon: I’m astonished by your statement to consult the church instead of the Bible. Where does your church get her teachings? Aren’t the words of God written in the Bible? It only confirms that the Catholic Church does not give importance to the Bible where we must base our faith.”

Why are you astonished? Do the Bible teaches that “the Scripture is the pillar and foundation of Truth”? Read 1 Timothy 3:15

442. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

The Catholic Church gives importance to the Bible, but it is not the only source of her teachings. The Catholic Church also bases its teachings from Sacred Tradition which was handed down by the apostles to their successors (bishops). As St. Paul said to the Thessalonians:

“Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. (2 Thes 2:15)”

Note the phrases “oral statement” and “letter”. The first corresponds to Sacred Tradition; the second to Sacred Scripture.

Below is the full explanation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

80 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.”40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

81 “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”42

“And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.”43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”44

443. laycarmelite says:

(UN)Truth,

Please provide proof that what you wrote below are DOCTRINES of the Catholic Church. If they are, are they De Fide?

“The Catholic Church teaching below are the teaching of demons and deceiving spirit.

Are there teaching of deceiving spirits and demons? ( 1 Timothy 4:1)

What are some teaching of demons and deceiving spirits? These are some doctrines greatly contradicts and against the words of God written in the Holy Bible.

1. They forbid people to marry: PRIEST, bishops and nuns (1 Timothy 4:3)
2. They forbid people to eat meat: LENTEN SEASON and vegetarian (1
Timothy 4:3)
3. They do standing prayers in the street: PROCESSION (Matthew 6:5)
4. They do repetitive prayers: ROSARY (Matthew 6:7)
5. They called their priest: FATHER of their soul and spirit (Matthew 23:9)
6. Vicar of Christ: POPE (Matthew 24:5, 11 & 24; Mark 13:16,22; Luke 21:8)”

444. Truth,

You are lying. The Catholic Church NEVER forbids its members to marry. That’s a big big lie. But if your problem is our priests, nuns and bishop why they remain unmarried, will you not question Jesus perfect example NOT to marry. Is Jesus also following the teachings of the devil of not marrying?

In fact, one of the 7 Sacraments is MATRIMONY which unites couples to be ONE BODY…
2. They forbid people to eat meat: LENTEN SEASON and vegetarian (1
Timothy 4:3)* Forbid is different from discourage. The abstinence from eating meat is a discipline, not a doctrine so one has the choice not to eat or to eat meat without the fear of losing Heaven.
3. They do standing prayers in the street: PROCESSION (Matthew 6:5). You forget that Moses and David did also have procession of the Ark of the Covenant. Are we not suppose to have our procession for the glory of God?
4. They do repetitive prayers: ROSARY (Matthew 6:7)What are the things you did not repeat? You repeat the same Bible verses and you repeat the same arguments that has long been answered. The Rosary is a BIBLE PRAYER. How dare you say “The Lord’s Prayer” and “Hail Mary” is a teaching from the devil just because they are repeated!!!? susmaryosep!!
5. They called their priest: FATHER of their soul and spirit (Matthew 23:9)Your BIGOTRY has no medicine. May the Holy Spirit have mercy on your soul.
6. Vicar of Christ: POPE (Matthew 24:5, 11 & 24; Mark 13:16,22; Luke 21:8) “YOu are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Whosoever sins you retain, they are retained.

Did Jesus told that to FELIX MANALO? Tsk tsk.. in your dreams..

445. Truth says:

TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. AND HIS ANGELS

Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on January 26, 2011 at 11:57 am

1. The Catholic Church gives importance to the Bible

The Holy Bible answer to Quirino M. Sugon Jr and his angels;
(John 8:44) You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Why the Catholic Church is the Church of the Devil? How they contradict and against the words of God written in the Holy Bible?

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 14) Father God is the 1st person in Trinity while the Holy Bible states that (John 4:24 Ibid) God is spirit.

2. The Catholic Church gives importance to the Bible but it is not the only source of her teachings. The other source of Catholic or Devil Church teaching.

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

2. The Catholic Church also bases its teachings from Sacred Tradition

The Holy Bible answer to Quirino M. Sugon Jr and his angels;
(Colossians 2:22) These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/anti1.htm﻿

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

446. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

The only official Catechism is the Catechism of the Catholic Church (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM) and not “My First Catechism” by Fr. Paolo O. Pirlo, SHMI. If you quote Fr. Pirlo again and not the official Catechism of the Catholic Church as I have given in the link, I shall delete your post. Sorry, this is my only way of making sure that only the official Catechism is quoted. (And I cannot still find the link to the official Catechism of Iglesia ni Cristo.)

Translation: Ang opisyal na Katekismo (Turo) ng Simbahang Katolika ay matatagpuan sa link na ito: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM. Pakigamit ng ganitong Katekismo at hindi yung kay Padre Pirlo. Kung gagamitin mo uli and Katekismo ni Fr. Pirlo, buburahin ko ang comment mo.

Maraming salamat sa iyong unawa. At sana matatagpuan mo rin ang katotohanang hinahanap mo.

447. artsee says:

I thought Tagalog is discouraged here. English only.

448. Truth says:

TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR.

Posted by Quirino M. Sugon Jr on January 26, 2011 at 9:46 pm

1. The only official Catechism is the Catechism of the Catholic Church

My Reply: Are you the Pope or greater than your Pope? Are you an authorized person to implement what an official or not with regards to your Catechism of the Catholic Church?

It means that you contradict the teaching of your Pope whom the book title “My First Catechism” was acknowledge by the Pope as an official teaching of the Catholic Church?

Source
Book: Bible History for Everyone
By Priest A.D.
(Page 67) It is true that many Catholic sell their faith for a political office, for a membership in a secret society, for a rich husband or wife for money. Like Judas the traitor, they sell their Divine Master for a few pieces of silver

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/anti1.htm﻿

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

449. Truth says:

TO CATHOLIC DEFENDER THE ANGEL OF QUIRINO M. SUGON JR.

Posted by Catholic Defender on January 26, 2011 at 7:45 pm

1. But if your problem is our priests, nuns and bishop why they remain unmarried

Whom teaching that priest, bishops & nuns forbid to marry (I Timothy 4:3 Ibid)?

SOURCE: PURE: HOLY BIBLE
Holy Bible says: (I Timothy 4:1 Ibid) taught by demons.

Source: Book: My First Catechism?
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 110) All the priest make vow of chastity and cannot be married

2. Is Jesus also following the teachings of the devil of not marrying?

Did I mention our Lord Jesus Christ or about your priest, bishops & nuns about not marring? Are your priest, bishops & nuns are the Lord Jesus Christ?

SOURCE: PURE: HOLY BIBLE
GOD says;
(Leviticus 21:10, 13-14 Ibid) 10 The high priest 13 The woman he marries must be a virgin. 14 He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people.

The priest has a daughter?
GOD says;
(Leviticus 21:9) If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(1 Timothy 3:2 Ibid) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife

Indeed the Catholic Church teachings are the teachings of Demons very crystal clear in the message above from the Holy Bible. See some proof below.

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/anti1.htm﻿

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

450. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

If there are two different ways of explaining a teaching, the first was done by you and the second by Felix Manalo himself, whom should INC members rely more? The words of Felix Manalo, of course.

In the same way, if there are two different books of the Catechism, the first was done by a certain priest with permission of a bishop and the second was done by group of bishops under the permission of the pope, whom should Catholics rely on? The Catechism officially published by the Pope, of course.

“My First Catechism” is meant for those who have not yet studied the Catholic Faith and they wish a simpler Catechism. If you wish to read more precise theological statements such as on the Trinity, read the official Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I am sorry for being uncharitable last time. You may continue quoting “My First Catechism” if it helps you learn about the Catholic Faith. By the way, do you have the copy of the book, “My First Catechism”?

451. Stop name calling Mr.Liar. I am no angel of anyone. I am just a lay servant of the Church in defense of the Truth it espouses. My baptism vow is compelling me to do so.

And you, you are a paid servant of the Iglesia ni Cristo and you are here to defend Felix Manalo and his founded church the Iglesia. While we are quoting our own OFFICIAL CATECHISM you cannot even quote any official teachings from you.

So what is your point? You are just copying and pasting anti-Catholic opinions but NEVER from your INC.. what a shame.

452. artsee says:

It there’s “My First Catechism”, is there “My Last Catechism”?

453. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

“My First Catechism” is the first book that you may read if you want a concise summary of the teachings of the Catholic Church. “My Last Catechism” is the last Catechism book that you shall read just before you die. For many, their first is their last. Learning the Catholic Faith is a lifelong process and no theologian can ever fully plumb the depths of the Catholic Faith. Even St. Thomas Aquinas, the author of the multivolume Summa Theologiae. Just before he died, a vision was revealed to him and he said, “All that I have written seems like straw compared to what has now been revealed to me.” We can write and write about who God is, but when God finally reveals himself, words fail. In the same way, we can learn about a lovely woman through her letter, but when she finally shows herself to us, words fail.

454. Truth says:

TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR AND HIS ANGELS
TO CATHOLIC DEFENDER

Taught by Demons (1
Timothy 4:1)

They forbid people to eat meat: LENTEN SEASON and vegetarian (1
Timothy 4:3)

Posted by Catholic Defender on January 26, 2011 at 7:45 pm

* Forbid is different from discourage. The abstinence from eating meat is a discipline, not a doctrine so one has the choice not to eat or to eat meat without the fear of losing Heaven.

Proof:
Book: Blessed Trinity Missal for Children
Priest Robert E. Southard

(Page 130) Eating a large piece of meat on Friday (Mortal Sin)

The Roman Catholic Church teaching are of demons contradicting and against the Holy Bible see link below.

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

Why Catholic Church blame the True God: The Father for their error of doctrines?

Bible History for Everyone
Priest A.D.
(Page 281) If there were in the Catholic faith any error or danger of error we could with St. Agustine justly lay the blame on God.

You are invited to attend our Bible Study enable you to be enlighten as you don’t know what you say.

455. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Dear Truth,

I have responded to this question before

but you just keep on repeating these things. And the sad thing is you do not make rebuttals to arguments but continue copying and pasting as if you haven’t posted them before. If you have friends here in INC, I would really appreciate if they will kindly and politely ask you not to post further comments because your actions do not speak well of INC.

I asked you if you have a hardcopy of “My First Catechism” but you did not reply either yes or no. I think you are a reasonable guy, except that English is language barrier. I think you are better off in an all-Filipino forum like Cenon Bibe’s blog: Tumbukin Natin (http://tumbukin-natin.blogspot.com/). I believe you would be able to follow arguments there because they are in Filipino and not in English. But if you still insist on posting your comments here, then I can only look at them with sadness because replying would be futile.

Thank you for your kind understanding.

Sincerely yours,

Quirino

456. Marz says:

You guys are good researchers not necessarily telling the whole truth. What if religion was created by men to prevent chaos, enforce law and order on this earth through scare tactics? The fear of the unknown and after death make some people embrace religion. Yet, history tells us that religion has been the cause of conflicts and wars.

457. Truth says:

TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR. AND HIS ANGELS

Which is the most important commandment in the laws of Moises?

CHRIST says;
(Matthew 22:37 Ibid) You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind

What Does the Bible Say About Arguments?
1.
(2 Timothy 2:23-25) Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

2.
(2 Corinthians 10:5) We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ

What was called those people say I know God, but doesn’t obey God commandments written only in the Holy Bible?

CHRIST says;
(I John 2:4 Ibid) that person is a liar and is not living in the truth

See reference below:

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

Lovingly yours,

Truth

458. seeker says:

Religion is reconciling with God.

459. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Marz,

If you like to speculate on the history of religion, specifically on the Judeo-Christian religion, we can also speculate on the other side of the spectrum: “What if religion was created by God to prevent the chaos produced by sin, enforce law and order on this earth through an appeal to love and reminder of the deadly consequences of sin?” A loving parent would warn his children that disobedience has consequences: if you do not wish to study, you will live a miserable life; if you engage in premarital sex, your married life would be unstable; and if you make friends with drug addicts, you will end up being like them. Sin is its own punishment. And God is a loving father who awaits day and night for the return of his prodigal son.

Between two views of religion, we have to make a bet with our life according to Pascal (http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm) because we will soon die. I shall bet with my life that God exists and live life according to his laws. You can bet with your life that God does not exist and live accordingly. Heaven, Hell, or nothingness awaits us after our death. If you win, nothingness awaits us both. But what if you lose?

If you like to speculate on the psychology of why men chose the Christian religion, I would suggest three reasons:

1. Moral laws that agree with Natural Law–what our conscience says is reasonable

2. Fulfillment of prophecies. God promised Abraham that he will be a father of many nations; Abraham is now the father of Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Prediction of World War II by our Lady of Fatima.

3. Sign of miracles. Jesus rose from the dead. Twelve cowardly men, many of them illiterate, spoke in different tongues on the day of Pentecost. The bodies of some saints are incorrupt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility). The pictures of Our Lady of Guadalupe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe) and the Shroud of Turin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin) remain as puzzles to scientists.

Religion are sources of conflicts or wars because Christ did not come to bring peace but division:

“Brother will hand over brother to death, and the father his child; children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end 10 will be saved.” (Mt 10:21-22)

In our present day, the Culture of Life (respect for unborn life and natural death) and the Culture of Death (abortion and euthanasia) are two irreconcilable foundations for society. So they clash in the culture wars. Similarly, Christianity (based on love and reason) and Islam (based on force and submission) are two irreconcilable religions. So they clashed in war in about the year 666 until this very day. Except today, the Western Civilization has abandoned its Judaeo-Graeco-Roman roots as exemplified by Christianity, and secular Europe, without a soul, has lost the will to fight for its survival.

460. Marz says:

God did not create religion. Some smart guys seeing the break down of law and order could have created religion to scare people about being punished when they die and go to hell. For if there’s no God, no after life, no punishment, no heaven and hell, why must men behave and do good on earth?

Not all men chose the Christian religion. There are as many Muslims and other groups. Buddhism is even much earlier than Christianity. Why did many choose Buddhism. All these have one common denominator: Fear of the unknown. Fear of God. Fear of punishment. Religion is a brain washing, mind control manipulation tool.

461. Truth says:

TO QUIRINO M. SUGON JR AND HIS ANGELS

Why Catholic Church blame the True God: The Father for their error of doctrines?

Bible History for Everyone
Priest A.D.
(Page 281) If there were in the Catholic faith any error or danger of error we could with St. Agustine justly lay the blame on God.

See reference below:

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

Lovingly yours,

Truth

p.s. You are invited to attend our Bible Study enable you to be enlighten as you don’t know what you say.

462. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Marz,

Of all religions, the Judeo-Christian religion is unique: God himself took the initiative to reveal who he is (“I am who I am”) and what his laws are (Ten Commandments) so that man can be saved. Islam was supposedly revealed by Angel Gabriel while Buddhism is a product of philosophy of life. Your idea of religion would fit the pagan Gods of Greece and Rome but not of the God of Jews and Christians. It was God Himself who wrote the Ten Commandments on the two tablets of stone:

“When the LORD had finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the commandments, the stone tablets inscribed by God’s own finger.” (Ex 31:18)

If this revelation of Himself is not enough, God Himself became man and dwelt among us (Jesus Christ, the Immanuel, the God-with-us) and taught us the commandments of God (“Love one another as I have loved you”). This revelation is too much for the Jews to handle, so they ended up crucifying Christ on the cross. God has fully revealed Himself in Jesus Christ; He cannot reveal Himself more.

463. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

God is a God of Truth and not of Lies. God can never deceive nor intend to deceive. When He promises us Heaven, He means it. When He warns us against Hell, He means it. When He says, “You are my beloved Son,” He means it.

Christ, for Catholics, is the God-who-became-man. So when He promised Peter that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church, God meant that no error will ever enter into the Church. This is the essence of what St. Augustine is saying: the Catholic Church can never teach error. The Catholic practices can change, but the Catholic dogmas remains unchanged.

If you want to show that the Catholic Church is in error, there is one way of doing this: find a dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church that was taught in the first centuries of Christianity but is denied now. Just look for one. If you can find one, you can be sure there will be other inconsistencies in the teaching. Just look for one. Just one. Start with the Apostles Creed:

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and life everlasting.

This Creed goes back to the time of the Apostles. If you can find any of the teachings here that is officially denied by any of the 20th century popes, then the Catholic Church is in error and I would not wish to bet my life and my salvation on this Church.

464. laycarmelite says:

forwarded wrote:
BTW, you’re taking Acts 8:38 out of context. Ang tinutukoy ng bible sa “they both went down into the water” is yung pagbaba nila mula sa chariot tapos yung subsequent na paglusong sa tubig. Take note that the clause “and he baptized him” came after “they both went down into the water.” Nung nakalusong na sila parehas, dun pa lang nangyari yung baptism. Mali therefore na iinterpret na parehas inilubog sina Philip and yung Eunuch.

“And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; AND HE BAPTIZED HIM.” (Acts 8:38, KING JAMES VERSION)

BTW, you didn’t rebut my interpretation of Acts 8:38. Can I assume that that has been settled? =)

Actually, I am not taking Acts 8:38 out of context. I am using YOUR analogy on “he CAME UP OUT OF THE WATER” which you insinuates as baptism by immersion. If “he CAME UP OUT OF THE WATER” means the person was immersed then “CAME DOWN INTO THE WATER” means being immersed. =) And that is based on YOUR analogy which I am just using.

In the Tagalog Version:
Mga Gawa 8:38 (Ang Salita ng Diyos)
Iniutos niyang itigil ang karwahe. Sila ay kapwa **lumusong sa tubig**, si Felipe at ang lalaki. Binawtismuhan siya ni Felipe.

Question: Do Acts 8:38 explicitly tells that the eunuch was immersed? Yes or no?

forwarded wrote:
To put things to rest, can you please clarify your stand re Matthew 3:16-18? What’s your interpretation of the phrase “he went up out of the water” and why do you interpret it that way?

My stand is that Mat. 3:16-18 does not support immersion as the only way and biblical means of administering baptism. It does not explicitly taught that the MANNER of baptism should be done by immersion.

465. laycarmelite says:

forwarded wrote:
I suggest you read Sir Quirino’s post. It would be futile to insist that baptism by immersion is unbiblical or of pagan origin since it is recognized by the Catholic Church rin naman pala.

The Catholic Church’s teaching here is not important since you don’t recognize it and based on your category the CC is pagan.

Now, I am using the same measure stick that you have used against the Catholic Church. Since baptism by immersion is pagan in origin, the “Iglesia ni Cristo” is a PAGAN church because it uses rites and teachings from paganism.

For the Catholics, everything belongs to God. Both clean and unclean. Both pagan and not pagan. God came to redeem EVERYTHING. If not, then woe unto us. All things that are impure can be pure through consecration.

Unfortunately for the INC, it is otherwise.

In conclusion: Baptism by Immersion is Pagan, the “Iglesia ni Cristo” believes in Baptism by Immersion, then the “Iglesia ni Cristo” is PAGAN!!!!

466. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr.

HE TRUE GOD CAN’T BE A MAN

Whom you shall believe, the words of God written in the Holy Bible or the words of your current religion against and contradict to the Holy Bible?

Did the true God, the Father became a man Jesus Christ?

GOD says;
(Malachi 3:6 Ibid) For I God do not change
(Hosea 11:9 Ibid) I am GOD and NOT MAN

TRUE PROPHETS says;
(Numbers 23:19 Ibid) God is not a man, God is not a human nor a son of Man
(Job 9:32 Ibid) God is not like a mortal like me

Is it the Father the only true God?

CHRIST says;
(John 17:1-3 Ibid) 1 Father, the hour has come 3 that they know you, the only true God

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(John 4:24 Ibid) God is spirit

If Christ the True God and True Man, why the True God the Father says he is not Man? Why you contradict and against the teaching of the Holy Bible?

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;

(Page 21 & 25) Jesus Christ is True God and True Man

(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons;

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

Dictionary
Person – means cannot do anything, have flesh and bones, grow tired mortal, visible, can be seen and dies

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

467. Truth says:

To Sir/Ma’am Laycarmelite one of the angel of Sir Quirino M. Sugon Jr.

BAPTISM

Whom you shall believe enable to be saved from hell, the words of God written in the Holy Bible or the words of your current religion against and contradict to the Holy Bible?

At what age Christ was baptized? Did after his baptism he began his ministry?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(Luke 3:21 &23 Ibid) Jesus was baptized too. Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry.

Did the Holy Bible teach the one who believes and repent (Adult) shall receive the baptism?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(Mark 16:16Ibid) Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
(Acts 2:38 Ibid) Repent and be baptized
(John 4:24 Ibid) God is spirit

Did the infants & toddler who receive baptism knows how to believes & repent? Why contradict & against to the words of God written in the Holy Bible?

Book: Bible History for Everyone
Priest A.D. says;

(Page 28) At the age of Thirty (30) Jesus was baptized

(Page 168) They should be baptized w/n a week or ten (10) days or w/n a month after their birth

(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons;

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

You don’t read this website below?

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

468. seeker says:

The Catholic Church has no right to speak about the Bible since many of her teachings come from tradition. When I was young in the school attending a Catholic institution, the teacher never used a Bible in our religion class. When I attended Mass, the priests opened the Bible briefly and started to lecture about the other things including politics and who to vote. When the so called Charismatic groups or Born Again groups became the fad that we mostly Protestants who wanted to call themselves as Christians or Born Again, the Catholic Church came up with their own Born Again Catholic. That was how the El Shaddai led by the corrupt Bro. Mike Velarde started. We now see Catholics displaying the Bible. Yet, other than well trained apologists and defenders like the owner, very few Catholics really know how to read the Bible and don’t understand it.

469. forwarded says:

laycarmelite,

Again, it’s your burden to prove that other forms of baptism are allowed. You keep on insisting that baptism by immersion is not the only way of doing the baptism yet up to now you haven’t provided a single verse to support your bold assertion… You haven’t even cited a Catholic authority to back your claim! =)

Can you please explain why baptism by immersion is pagan? You’re stating a conclusion without laying down the premise. If the INC is pagan because it practices baptism by immersion, then you must concede that Catholic Church is also pagan because it likewise recognizes baptism by immersion.

The phrase went up out of the water in Matthew 3:16 (“umahon” in tagalog) may be interpreted in a number of ways. Simple lang naman ang tanong ko sa iyo. Ano sa tingin mo ang nangyari dun? I’m asking for your interpretation so please huwag mo nang ireiterate yung stand mo =)

470. forwarded says:

laycarmelite,

Sabi mo you never claimed that Christ went back to the river bank (pumunta sa pampang or lupa) in Matthew 3:16. You also disputed the obvious import of the text that Christ, from being totally immersed, went up out of the water or umahon sa tubig matapos mula sa pagkakalubog ng buo. Ano ngayon sa tingin mo ang nangyari sa Matthew 3:16 if according to you neither of the two happened??? =)

471. forwarded says:

Actually, I am not taking Acts 8:38 out of context. I am using YOUR analogy on “he CAME UP OUT OF THE WATER” which you insinuates as baptism by immersion. If “he CAME UP OUT OF THE WATER” means the person was immersed then “CAME DOWN INTO THE WATER” means being immersed. =) And that is based on YOUR analogy which I am just using.

——————————————————————-

Im sorry but why apply my interpretation of Matthew 3:16 to Acts 8:38??? Magkaiba yung context nung dalawang verse. In Matthew 3:16, Jesus and John the baptist were already in the Jordan River. In Acts 8:38, Philip and the Eunuch were still in the chariot.

It’s manifestly absurd to interpret the phrase “they both went down into the water” as immersion (or the opposite of “he went up out out the water” in Matthew 3:16) dahil nasa Chariot nga si Philip and the Eunuch. They could not have been both immersed coz wala namang tubig sa Chariot… =)

472. Apothecary says:

T_T.. nu b nmn to.. di kasi ako nagbabasa ng bible di ako makasabay.. nag reresearch ksi ako ng pictures ng Iglesia Ni Cristo. n punta ako sa isng website.. may nka lagay na “click here”.. tpus e2.. akala ko patay na ang kwentong e2 di pa pla..

“Jesus is Lord”? di ba son lng sya??
yung mga itinuturo talaga ng mga pari sa catholic.. nag cocontradict sa kanilang sariling mga OPINION,. or KATOTOHANAN para sa kanila.. cguro nabalutan ng makapal na blind fold ang kanilang mga mata, o natakpan ng napakamakapal na muta ang kanilang mata.. sadyang bulag..? o sadyang retarded lng? =D

473. ang iglesia ni cristo ang toto0ng rilihiyon

474. ang naka sulat sa bibliya sa roma 16:16(MG) na ang iglesia ni cristo,
hind iglesia apostolika romana.

475. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Apothecary,
I would really appreciate if you write in English. Thank you.

476. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Franklin,
1. Please write in English.
2. Check your Bible again. This is what Rom 16:16 states:
“All the churches of Christ greet you.”
Translation: “Lahat ng mga Iglesia ni Cristo ay bumabati sa iyo.” “Iglesia ni Cristo” is singular; “mga Iglesia ni Cristo” is plural. If you read the previous verses, there are many churches of Christ and they are named after their location: “church at Cenchreae” (Rom 16:1) and “churches of the Gentiles”

477. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

1. You said: “The Catholic Church has no right to speak about the Bible since many of her teachings come from tradition.”

If it were not for the Catholic Church, you would not have the Bible that you are holding right now. The bible did not come with a table of contents. And there are too many other “scriptures” in circulation like “Gospel of Thomas” and “Gospel of Peter”. Who shall determine which is the true and inspired Gospel and which is the fake? The Catholic Church. More than a thousand years before Luther, the Catholic Church already made an official list of the books in the “Bible” as early as 382 AD by Pope Gelasius. Luther and other founders of Protestantism only inherited the list of books in the Bible from the Catholic Church, and they removed 6 books from the list. The Catholic Church already existed when the books in the Bible was being written. The 4 evangelists, and Sts. Paul, Peter, and James were Catholics when they wrote the scriptures and they died as Catholic martyrs and saints.

An analogy may help: you read a letter by Ninoy Aquino to your father. In order to determine the authenticity of the letter, you do not debate on the meaning of words or the consistency of the handwriting. Rather you ask witnesses. Your mother can testify that your father and Ninoy are good friends. Some of Ninoy’s friends can also testify the same. And some of them can even testify they saw Ninoy writing the letter himself. Similarly, without the testimony of the Catholic Church, the Bible that you are holding maybe of dubious origin or is a fake or somebody removed some words or phrases. Frequent copying by hand (there were no xerox machines then) can put errors in the manuscripts. So how sure are you that the Bible that you are holding is free from error?

2. You said: “When I was young in the school attending a Catholic institution, the teacher never used a Bible in our religion class.”

When we are young, we can only learn as our brains can handle. But what is taught in Catholic elementary schools is really biblical, though we don’t quote chapter and verse. We live the Bible in our daily lives. Everything starts and ends with the sign of the cross: “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19). We learn the “Our Father” (Mt 6:9-13) and the “Hail Mary” (c.f. Lk 1:28; 1:42). We learn the Angelus (c.f. Lk 1 and Jn 1).

We learn the rosary which is the summary of the life of Jesus and Mary as recounted in the Gospels: Joyful, Light, Sorrowful, and Glorious. You can always assign a verse to a mystery. For Joyful, we have Annunciation (Lk 1), Visitation (Lk 1), Nativity (Lk 2), Presentation (Lk 3), and Losing and Finding (Lk 2). For Light, we have Baptism (Jn 1), Marriage at Cana (Jn 2), Proclamation of the Kingdom (see Parables of Christ), Transfiguration (Mt 17), and Eucharist (Mt 26). For Sorrowful, we have Agony in the Garden (Mt 26), Scourging at the Pillar (Jn 19), Crowning of Thorns (Jn 19), Carrying of the Cross (Jn 19), and Crucifixion (Jn 19). And for Glorious, we have Resurrection (Jn 20), Ascension (Acts 1), Descent of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2), Assumption of Mary (Rev 12), and Crowning of Mary (Rev 12).

3. You said: “When I attended Mass, the priests opened the Bible briefly and started to lecture about the other things including politics and who to vote.”

I have already shown that the sign of the cross is in the bible and it is mentioned many times during the mass. The mass has two parts: Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Word for a Sunday mass has 3 parts: 1st Reading (Old Testament), Psalms, 2nd Reading (Letters of St. Paul and others in the New Testament), and Gospel (from the four Evangelists). In three years of daily attending the mass, a Catholic would have heard about 14% of the Old Testament and 70% of the New Testament(http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/Statistics.htm). But since most church-going Catholics would attend mass only during Sundays, they would have heard only about 2% of OT and 10% of NT. The Liturgy of the Eucharist, on the other hand, is also biblical because it recounts the Last Supper (Mt 26:26-28). Try sitting at the back of the chapel during a mass. If you know your Bible well, you will be surprised to hear biblical verses being quoted or paraphrased from start to finish. The Protestant Scripture scholar Scott Hahn tried sitting at the back of the chapel during a mass before, and he was similarly surprised. So he became Catholic.

3. Thank you for pointing out that most Catholics do not know their Bible well. The Catholic Church has in fact encouraged Her children to read the Bible. Below is from Catholic Answers:

“The Handbook of Indulgences states, “A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful who read sacred Scripture with the veneration due God’s word and as a form of spiritual reading. The indulgence will be a plenary one when such reading is for at least one-half hour” (80).

“Keep in mind that there are several requirements for acquiring a plenary indulgence. The Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences explains,

“To acquire a plenary indulgence it is necessary to perform the work to which the indulgence is attached and to fulfill three conditions: sacramental confession, Eucharistic Communion and prayer for the intentions of the Supreme Pontiff. It is further required that all attachment to sin, even to venial sin, be absent. If this disposition is in any way less than complete, or if the prescribed three conditions are not fulfilled, the indulgence will be only partial. . . .

478. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels,

DO NOT SIGN CROSS

Who will drink the wine of God’s anger?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(Revelation 14:9-10 Ibid) If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;

(Page 76) Baptism rite – The celebrant make the sign of the cross in the forehead of all the children & invite parents & god parents to do the same

(Page 87) The Bishop dips his right thump & makes the sign of the cross in the forehead of each candidate

What will happen of these people who makes sign of the cross?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(Revelation 14:10-11 Ibid) They will be tormented with burning sulfur, 11 for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Book: Blessed Trinity Missal for Children
PRIEST ROBERT E. SOUTHARD says;
(Page 48 Ibid) The priest makes the sign of the cross five times as he prays.

Are signing of the Cross deceived the inhabitant of the earth?

(Revelation 13:14 Ibid) Because of the signs, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth.

What will happen of these people who did not worship the image (Idolatry)?

(Revelation 13:15 Ibid) who refused to worship the image to be killed.

Those people who live after Christ and apostles death are force to sign of the Cross?

(Revelation 13:16 Ibid) It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads

Are the beast (Pope) has a number (Vicarivs Filli Dei) which is his name?

(Revelation 13:18 Ibid) Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

Did you read carefully the link below?

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;

(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons;

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

479. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

The sign of the cross is the sign of Christ because Christ was crucified on the cross. Why do you despise the Cross? Christ said: “”Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me” (Mk 8:34). Since Christ took his cross to Calvary, we who claim to be followers of Christ must also carry our individual crosses in our daily Calvary.

Is the cross the sign of the beast? Since Christ is on the cross, is Christ the Beast? If this is true, then the members of Iglesia ni Cristo are the Church of the Beast? No, the cross is the sign of Christ and it is the cross which we will see on his Second Coming. As Christ said:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Mt 24:29-30)

480. artsee says:

At those times, criminals were crucified on the Cross. If we respect Jesus Christ, why should we make the sign of the Cross and even wear Cross as necklace? If a criminal was put to death by electric chair, do you wear a symbol or piece of electric chair pendant as necklace to remember him?

481. Winnie ibe says:

Truth,
i don’t think you are accurate in your reading with the verses you presented against the sign of the cross.
I advice you to read it again and accurately.
It deed mention about sign but it never mention the
sign of the cross being the sign of the devil.
I must also point out that the verse you mentioned ,it said about mark on
the forehead and at the right hand.We Catholics we do the sign of the cross
on our forehead with our right hand,notice no mark or sign at our right hand.
See the difference?

You have to read the whole revelation.In Revelation 9:4 it mentions about
onother mark ,it is also on their forehead but it is said to be the sign or mark
of those who are saved,and that they are of God.In Exeq 9:4 it says that those
who were marked they were saved,and those who don’t were not.
The Jerusalem bible rendered this mark as ‘cross’.
Truly,the sign of the cross is the sign of the people of God,for when we do
the sign of the cross, we invoke his name,’In the name of the Father,and of the
Son and the Holy Spirit’.Matt 28:19-20.In His name we are initiated into a
relationship with God,and of course definitely not with the Devil. You have to
claim that the name of the Father ,and of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit is the
name of the Devil.

482. laycarmelite says:

forwarded wrote:
Im sorry but why apply my interpretation of Matthew 3:16 to Acts 8:38??? Magkaiba yung context nung dalawang verse. In Matthew 3:16, Jesus and John the baptist were already in the Jordan River. In Acts 8:38, Philip and the Eunuch were still in the chariot.

Dear dear, there is no difference in context because the situation is on baptism and going to the river.

forwarded:
It’s manifestly absurd to interpret the phrase “they both went down into the water” as immersion (or the opposite of “he went up out out the water” in Matthew 3:16) dahil nasa Chariot nga si Philip and the Eunuch. They could not have been both immersed coz wala namang tubig sa Chariot… =)

how do you know that there is no water in the chariot? the chariot can be driven into the river also. nevertheless, if what you say is true, the verse should have been written as “they went down from the chariot and into the water” but the necessary phrase is absent. Thus your claim is false.

Again, Question: Do Acts 8:38 explicitly tells that the eunuch was immersed? Yes or no?

483. laycarmelite says:

forwarded,

I-apply your interpretation to show that the way you interpret scripture passages is wrong. Since you disagree, then the manner of your interpretation is indeed wrong. =)

484. laycarmelite says:

forwarded wrote:
Again, it’s your burden to prove that other forms of baptism are allowed. You keep on insisting that baptism by immersion is not the only way of doing the baptism yet up to now you haven’t provided a single verse to support your bold assertion… You haven’t even cited a Catholic authority to back your claim! =)

Hahaha. Typical INC response when they are cornered. =)
http://www.catholic.com/library/Baptism_Immersion_Only.asp

forwarded wrote:
Can you please explain why baptism by immersion is pagan?

The practice of baptism in pagan religions seems to have been based on a belief in the purifying properties of water. In ancient Babylon, according to the Tablets of Maklu, water was important as a spiritual cleansing agent in the cult of Enke, lord of Eridu. In Egypt, the Book of Going Forth by Day contains a treatise on the baptism of newborn children, which is performed to purify them of blemishes acquired in the womb. Water, especially the Nile’s cold water, which was believed to have regenerative powers, is used to baptize the dead in a ritual based on the Osiris myth. Egyptian cults also developed the idea of regeneration through water. The bath preceding initiation into the cult of Isis seems to have been more than a simple ritual purification; it was probably intended to represent symbolically the initiate’s death to the life of this world by recalling Osiris’ drowning in the Nile.

In the cult of Cybele, a baptism of blood was practiced in the rite of the Taurobolium: where one was covered with the blood of a bull. At first this rite seems to have been to provide the initiate with greater physical vitality, but later it acquired more of a spiritual importance. A well-known inscription attests that he who has received baptism of blood has received a new birth in eternity. However, the fact that this baptism was repeated periodically shows that the idea of complete spiritual regeneration was not associated with it.

The property of immortality was also associated with baptism in the ancient Greek world. A bath in the sanctuary of Trophonion procured for the initiate a blessed immortality even while in this world. The mystery religions of that period often included ablution rites of either immersion or a washing of the body for the purposes of purification or initiation. Other concepts said to have been associated with these forms of cultic baptisms included the transformation of one’s life, the removal of sins, symbolic representation, the attainment of greater physical vitality, a new beginning, spiritual regeneration. It is believed that all ancient religions recognized some form of spiritual cleansing, renewal or initiation that was accomplished through a washing or immersion in water.

http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-baptism-a-prechristian-history.htm

forwarded wrote:
You’re stating a conclusion without laying down the premise.

If you know what we are talking about then you should have done some research and not just rely on spoon feeeding.

forwarded wrote:
If the INC is pagan because it practices baptism by immersion, then you must concede that Catholic Church is also pagan because it likewise recognizes baptism by immersion.

Hahaha. Now you have the taste of your own medicine. I will not concede because we have different mind. You and your pseudo-Church is PURITANSTIC in attitude while the Catholic Church is NOT.

Read and understand my previous post. I-spoon feed ko na nga lang sa iyo, you must be lazy of scrolling up:
“For the Catholics, everything belongs to God. Both clean and unclean. Both pagan and not pagan. God came to redeem EVERYTHING. If not, then woe unto us. All things that are impure can be pure through consecration.

Unfortunately for the INC, it is otherwise.”

forwared wrote:
The phrase went up out of the water in Matthew 3:16 (“umahon” in tagalog) may be interpreted in a number of ways. Simple lang naman ang tanong ko sa iyo. Ano sa tingin mo ang nangyari dun? I’m asking for your interpretation so please huwag mo nang ireiterate yung stand mo =)

binawtismuhan ng tubig.

485. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Arsee,

You said: “At those times, criminals were crucified on the Cross. If we respect Jesus Christ, why should we make the sign of the Cross and even wear Cross as necklace? If a criminal was put to death by electric chair, do you wear a symbol or piece of electric chair pendant as necklace to remember him?”

If you by chance go to Libangan ng mga Bayani, you would read the following epitaph: “I do not know the manner of his birth, but I know the glory of his death.” As St. Augustine would say, “It is only in the face of death that man’s self is born.” Jose Rizal’s heroism is judged by the calmness he faced death, even turning his body to face the firing squad, for he is no traitor to Spain. So what is the most fitting way to commemorate Rizal? Make a sculpture of him being hit by the bullets, his body twisted, and his face scarred with pain. In a similar way, we honor saints by depicting the manner of their death: St. Denis carrying his chopped head, St. Lawrence carrying the gridiron, and St. Blaise with steel combs. The greatest honor for a Filipino is to die for his country, “ang mamatay ng dahil sa iyo.” And the greatest honor for a Christian is to die for Christ.

If Christ died on an electric chair, most likely Catholics would remember him sitting on an electric chair. That death would be quick. Now they use lethal injection, but the victim is also placed on the cross. But Christ did not die in an electric chair or in a lethal injection: : Christ died a slow, excruciating death on the cross, pierced with a spear to his heart as he hung on a tree between heaven and earth(c.f. Absalom in 2 Sam 18:9-13), in fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy of the Suffering Servant (Is 53:2-12):

“He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him. He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem. Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted. But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed. We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all. Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth.

“Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people. A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood. (But the LORD was pleased to crush him in infirmity.) If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him. Because of his affliction he shall see the light in fullness of days; Through his suffering, my servant shall justify many, and their guilt he shall bear. Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.

486. laycarmelite says:

To Sir/Madam Truth one of the minions of the pseudo-angels,

If you are a reasonable person to talk then I will notice you but you are not. You are interested in monologue and not dialogue. You are a troll and I am not interested in trolls.

487. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels,

THE ONLY GOD

Whom you shall believe, the words of God written in the Holy Bible or the words of your false religion against and contradict to the Holy Bible?

How many true God? Is the true God divided in three persons?

GOD says;
(Isaiah 43:10 Ibid) I alone am God. There is no other God there never has been, and there never will be
(Isaiah 45:21 Ibid) For there is no other God but me, a righteous God and Savior. There is none but me
(Isaiah 46:9 Ibid) For I alone am God! I am God, and there is none like me

TRUE PROPHETS says;
(II Samuel 7:22 Ibid) There is no one like you, O LORD, and there is no God but you
(I Kings 8:23 Ibid) there is no God like you, in heaven above or on earth beneath
(I Kings 8:60) so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other
(II Kings 19:15 Ibid) You are the God, YOU ALONE
(I Chronicles 17:20, II Samuel 7:22 Ibid) There is no one like you, O LORD, and there is no God but you
(Psalms 86:10 Ibid) You alone is God
(Malachi 2:10 Ibid) Has not one God created us?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(John 4:24 Ibid) God is spirit
(I Corinthians 8:6 Ibid) But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER
(Ephesians 4:6) One God and Father of all
(2 Thessalonians 2:16) God our Father
(1 Timothy 2:5) For there is ONE GOD
(Mark 12:29 Ibid) “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our GOD, the Lord IS ONE.

ANTI CHRIST – CONTRADICT AND AGAINST THE TEACHING OF CHRIST. AS THEIR TEACHING GOD IS DIVIDED IN THREE (3) PERSONS; GOD FATHER, GOD SON & GOD HOLY SPIRIT WHILE GOD TEACHING THERE IS NO OTHER GOD.

Book: My First Catechism

THE DOGMA OF TRINITY says;
(Page 14) God Father, God Son & God Holy Spirit

PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?

(Page 19) Divider

DICTIONARY
Person – means not can’t do anything, grow tired, have flesh and bones, mortal, visible, can be seen and dies

Did you carefully read the link hereunder?

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

488. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

Sorry, I have to delete your comments from this point onwards. You will hurt INC more by your not being able to reason out properly and answer simple questions. It is time for you to make your own blog.

Paumanhin, kailangan ko nang burahin ang mga comments mo mula ngayon. Mas lalo lang hindi magiging maganda para sa INC ang iyong hindi kakayahang magpaliwanag ng maayos at magsagot sa mga simpleng tanong. Kailangan mo nang gumawa ng sarili mong blog. Nawa’y gabayan ka ng Diyos sa iyong paghahanap ng katotohanan.

Maraming salamat.

Quirino

489. benjie says:

This is the first time I commented on this forum, though I get to read the comments once in a while. At the outset, I’m not a member of INC. I don’t believe in organized religion.

Deleting the comments of one blogger is tantamount to banning him. Why not call spade a spade. I don’t agree with the many doctrines of INC, but from what I heard, this group seldom lost in a debate. They used to engage in public debates and I must say they are tough to beat.

Deleting the comments is not helping the INC. It helps this blog and its moderator. Deleting means you give up. I don’t find any comment that’s obscene or extremely offensive. It just hurt the Catholic Church and the Catholics. This is not the time to run away from an argument. Asking him to form his own blog would discourage others to join us here. Do you want this blog be monopolized by your fellow Catholics? What’s the point of forming this Blog if it’s not open to other religions particularly INC which is the Catholic Church’s worst critic? Thanks.

490. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Benjie,

I am open to change my mind. What does other commenters say? If two or three would intercede in Truth’s behalf, I shall change my mind.

491. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Benjie,
I think you are right. I reposted Truth’s comment.

492. forwarded says:

laycarmelite,

You’re one funny person my friend! =) We’re engaged in a little discussion here. You cannot expect me to research and cite sources for you. And it’s impossible for me second guess the sources /authorities that you’re reading. Baka magalit ka pa sa akin kung mali yung ma-i-cite ko na authority or biblical basis on your behalf. =)

You cited an article from http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-baptism-a-prechristian-history.htm to prove that baptism by immersion, as practiced by John the Baptist and the early Christians, has pagan origins. MAY I KNOW IF YOU READ THE ARTICLE IN FULL? =) For the benefit of other readers, here’s a quote of the entire article:

“Baptism: A Pre-Christian History

WHEN JOHN THE BAPTIST came to the deserts of Judea “preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins” he was met with great success. Matthew 3:5 says, “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.” Luke adds that crowds were coming out to be baptized by him. And, “When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too.” (Luke 3:7, 21).

The Jewish people to whom John’s ministry was directed were familiar with the concepts of repentance and forgiveness of sins (1 Kings 8:33-34; Isa 55:6, 7) even though complete forgiveness was not possible apart from the shed blood of Christ (Heb 9:15). But what about baptism? What familiarity did the Jews of the first century have with the practice of baptism?

The New Testament clearly points out that the baptism of John was from God. It came from heaven (Matt 21:25). It was administered for the spiritual purpose of proclaiming repentance and receiving forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4). But the act of baptism itself has a history beyond the Scriptures.

The Greek World

“The Greek word “baptizo” as used in Mark 1:4 ( “And so John came, baptizing in the desert region . . .” ) was very common among Greek-speaking people; it is used in every period of Greek literature and was applied to a great variety of matters, including the most familiar acts of everyday life. Greek speakers and hearers understood the word at the time John was preaching; it had no doubtful meaning. It meant what we express by the Latin word ‘immerse’ and kindred terms; no one could then have thought of attributing to it a different meaning, such as ‘sprinkle’ or ‘pour.'” (Boles, H. Leo Commentary on Matthew. Gospel Advocate Pub. Pg 74).

The Encyclopedia of Religion (McMillan. 1987. Pg. 59) continues by pointing out that the word baptism means to plunge, to immerse, or to wash; it also signifies, from the Homeric period onward, any rite of immersion in water. The baptismal rite is similar to many other ablution (the washing of one’s body or part of it as a religious rite) rituals found in a number of religions…”

Pre-Christian Religions

The practice of baptism in pagan religions seems to have been based on a belief in the purifying properties of water. In ancient Babylon, according to the Tablets of Maklu, water was important as a spiritual cleansing agent in the cult of Enke, lord of Eridu. In Egypt, the Book of Going Forth by Day contains a treatise on the baptism of newborn children, which is performed to purify them of blemishes acquired in the womb. Water, especially the Nile’s cold water, which was believed to have regenerative powers, is used to baptize the dead in a ritual based on the Osiris myth. Egyptian cults also developed the idea of regeneration through water. The bath preceding initiation into the cult of Isis seems to have been more than a simple ritual purification; it was probably intended to represent symbolically the initiate’s death to the life of this world by recalling Osiris’ drowning in the Nile.

In the cult of Cybele, a baptism of blood was practiced in the rite of the Taurobolium: where one was covered with the blood of a bull. At first this rite seems to have been to provide the initiate with greater physical vitality, but later it acquired more of a spiritual importance. A well-known inscription attests that he who has received baptism of blood has received a new birth in eternity. However, the fact that this baptism was repeated periodically shows that the idea of complete spiritual regeneration was not associated with it.

The property of immortality was also associated with baptism in the ancient Greek world. A bath in the sanctuary of Trophonion procured for the initiate a blessed immortality even while in this world. The mystery religions of that period often included ablution rites of either immersion or a washing of the body for the purposes of purification or initiation. Other concepts said to have been associated with these forms of cultic baptisms included the transformation of one’s life, the removal of sins, symbolic representation, the attainment of greater physical vitality, a new beginning, spiritual regeneration. It is believed that all ancient religions recognized some form of spiritual cleansing, renewal or initiation that was accomplished through a washing or immersion in water.

Judaism

The liturgical use of water was common in the Jewish world. The Law of Moses required ablutions (washings) on the part of priests following certain sacrifices and on certain individuals who were unclean because of an infectious disease (Num. 19:1-22; Lev 14,15, 16:24-28). The natural method of cleansing the body by washing and bathing in water was always customary in Israel. The washing of their clothes was an important means of sanctification imposed on the Israelites even before the law was given a Mt. Sinai (Ex 19:10). The use of water for cleansing was used symbolically as well in such passages as Eze 36:25 where God says, “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities . . .” We do not believe that the practice of baptism for the remission of sins as taught in the New Testament was based in any way on the Old Testament, however the Old Testament washings with or in water that were for the purpose of physical cleansing can be seen as a type or shadow of New Testament baptism, which is for the purpose of spiritual cleansing (1 Peter 3:21).

Toward the beginning of the Christian era, the Jews adopted (as a custom unrelated to Divine guidance) the custom of baptizing proselytes seven days after their circumcision. A series of specific interrogations made it possible to judge the real intentions of the candidate who wished to adopt the Jewish religion. After submitting to these interrogations, he was circumcised and later baptized before witnesses. In the baptism, he was immersed naked in a pool of flowing water; when he rose from the pool, he was a true son of Israel. After their baptism, new converts were allowed access to the sacrifices in the Temple.

The Baptism of John

When John the Baptist came on the scene in the first century Jewish world, his teaching included the necessity of baptism. The people of his day were familiar with the act or practice of baptism as just discussed. However, John’s baptism was not based on or authorized by the Jewish law or pagan religious customs and traditions. John was called to preach by god, armed only with the word of god (Luke 3:2). Jesus tells us that the baptism that John taught was from heaven, not from men (Matt 21:25). When John preached a baptism for the remission of sins, the people heard and obeyed. They submitted to the baptism that had been authorized by god. It was the first time in human history in which a person had the opportunity to be baptized for the remission of his sins, pagan and Jewish religious customs, notwithstanding. A necessary refinement in the administration of baptism had to be made following the death of Jesus, however, as Acts 19:1-7 points out. Rather than submitting to the baptism of John, which was a baptism of repentance, we can now be baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.”

493. forwarded says:

Continuation

1. The above quoted article categorically states that baptism, as practiced by John, was through immersion. This confirmed (rather than debunked) my interpretation of Matthew 3:16, the verse which described the baptism of Christ through John the Baptist.

“The Greek word “baptizo” as used in Mark 1:4 ( “And so John came, baptizing in the desert region . . .” ) was very common among Greek-speaking people; it is used in every period of Greek literature and was applied to a great variety of matters, including the most familiar acts of everyday life. GREEK SPEAKERS AND HEARERS UNDERSTOOD THE WORD AT THE TIME JOHN WAS PREACHING; IT HAD NO DOUBTFUL MEANING. IT MEANT WHAT WE EXPRESS BY THE LATIN WORD ‘IMMERSE’ AND KINDRED TERMS; NO ONE COULD THEN HAVE THOUGHT OF ATTRIBUTING TO IT A DIFFERENT MEANING, SUCH AS ‘SPRINKLE’ OR ‘POUR.'” (Boles, H. Leo Commentary on Matthew. Gospel Advocate Pub. Pg 74).”

“The Encyclopedia of Religion (McMillan. 1987. Pg. 59) continues BY POINTING OUT THAT THE WORD BAPTISM MEANS TO PLUNGE, TO IMMERSE, OR TO WASH; IT ALSO SIGNIFIES, FROM THE HOMERIC PERIOD ONWARD, ANY RITE OF IMMERSION IN WATER. The baptismal rite is similar to many other ablution (the washing of one’s body or part of it as a religious rite) rituals found in a number of religions…”

2. While the article posits that the ancient religions did practice some form of spiritual cleansing, renewal, or initiation through washing or immersion in water, it was clearly pointed out at the last paragraph that baptism by immersion as done by John the Baptist WAS DIFFERENT and could not have originated from the former. For the ancient religions, baptism is any of the following: (1) a form of initiation (2) a means towards regeneration (3) a way of gaining immortality. On the other hand, baptism by immersion, as practiced by John, is for the remission peoples’ sins.

“When John the Baptist came on the scene in the first century Jewish world, his teaching included the necessity of baptism. The people of his day were familiar with the act or practice of baptism as just discussed. HOWEVER, JOHN’S BAPTISM WAS NOT BASED ON OR AUTHORIZED BY THE JEWISH LAW OR PAGAN RELIGIOUS CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS.”

“When John preached a baptism for the remission of sins, the people heard and obeyed. They submitted to the baptism that had been authorized by god. IT WAS THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY IN WHICH A PERSON HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF HIS SINS, PAGAN AND JEWISH RELIGIOUS CUSTOMS, NOTWITHSTANDING.”

Before claiming that your opponent has been cornered, before ridiculing the other side with smack talk like “my dear, my dear” and “i-spoon feed ko na lang sa’yo,” I strongly suggest that you take time to read your source before posting. Your arrogance back fired my friend…

494. forwarded says:

“As soon as Jesus was baptized, HE WENT UP out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.” – Matthew 3:16

“And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they BOTH WENT DOWN INTO THE WATER, both Philip and the eunuch. AND HE BAPTIZED HIM.” — Acts 8:38

—————————————————————–

Gaya nga ng sinabi ko, nasa Jordan River na si Christ and John the Baptist sa Matthew while, initially, nasa Chariot palang sina Philip and the Eunuch sa Acts. Given the context of Acts 8:38, mali na iinterpret yung phrase na “they both went down into the water” as immersion (OR THE OPPOSITE OF “HE WENT UP OUT OUT THE WATER” in Matthew 3:16). Ang tinutukoy sa “they both went down into the water” is yung pagbaba nila mula sa chariot tapos yung subsequent na paglusong sa tubig.

The clause “And he baptized him” came after “And they both went down into the water.” Yung pagbaba sa tubig is not the baptism itself. Bumaba muna parehas sa chariot sina Philip and Eunuch and pumunta sa tubig (“AND HE COMMANDED THE CHARIOT TO STAND STILL. AND THEY BOTH WENT DOWN INTO THE WATER, BOTH PHILIP AND THE EUNUCH.”) Nang nasa tubig na sila, saka palang binaustimuhan ni Philip yung Eunuch (“AND HE BAPTIZED HIM”).

How did I know na walang tubig sa chariot? Well it is apparent in the verse… Why would they have to stop the chariot if there’s already water there? And I just cannot imagine a chariot with water sufficient enough to do the baptism. (Note: baptism requires plenty of water. John 3:23 – “John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, BECAUSE THERE WAS MUCH WATER there: and they came, and were baptized.”)

Your answer is non-responsive. So what do you mean by bautismo sa tubig? You keep on insisting na mali yung interpretation ko yet you don’t have an interpretation of your own. What is your basis for saying na mali nga yung interpretation if you don’t even have an inkling kung ano yung nangyari sa Matthew 3:16?

495. forwarded says:

Just to be sure that you’ve read the link (http://www.catholic.com/library/Baptism_Immersion_Only.asp), maybe you can argue this one out? =)

496. remus says:

i read almost all the comments posted on this blog and i was really impressed the way they presented their arguments.However some are just pasting comments that were copied from somewhere and dont bring any relevancy to the topics.i wish members of inc need to be civil presenting their arguments in order to have a clear and meaningful dialogue.

497. laycarmelite says:

Sir/Madam truth of the pseudo-angel,

One question, who or what is “the pillar and foundation of Truth”?

498. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels,

CHRIST SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD

Whom you shall entrust your salvation, to the words of God written in the Holy Bible or in the teachings against and contradict to the Holy Bible?

Did the true God Father, acknowledge Christ as the true God seated beside God Father?

GOD says;
(Isaiah 45:21 Ibid) For there is no other God but me.
(Isaiah 43:10 Ibid) There is no other God
(Isaiah 46:9 Ibid) I am God, and there is none like me

TRUE PROPHETS says;
(II Samuel 7:22 Ibid) there is no God but you
(I Kings 8:23 Ibid) there is no God like you,
(I Kings 8:60) there is no other
(II Kings 19:15 Ibid) You are the God, YOU ALONE
(I Chronicles 17:20, II Samuel 7:22 Ibid) there is no God but you
(Psalms 86:10 Ibid) You alone is God
(Malachi 2:10 Ibid) Has not one God created us?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(I Corinthians 8:6 Ibid) But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER
(Ephesians 4:6) One God and Father of all
(2 Thessalonians 2:16) God our Father
(1 Timothy 2:5) For there is ONE GOD
(Mark 12:29 Ibid) The Lord our GOD, the Lord IS ONE.

Did the Holy Bible teachings teach that the only God is the Father according to God himself, True Prophets and True Christians? Did the teachings in the book of My First Catechism found in the Holy Bible God Father, God Son & God Holy Spirit, against and contradict?

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 44) We believe that the lord Jesus ascended into heaven and is now seated at the right hand of the father

THE DOGMA OF TRINITY says;
(Page 14) God Father, God Son & God Holy Spirit

Who is the true God?

CHRIST says;
(John 17:1-3 Ibid) 1 Father, the hour has come 3 that they know you, the only true God

Did Christ teachings that the only true God is the Father? Did the teachings in the book of My First Catechism found in the Holy Bible, against and contradict?

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;

(Page 21 & 25) Jesus Christ is True God

What is the true nature of the true God?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(John 4:24 Ibid) God is spirit

Did the Holy Bible teachings that the God is spirit? Did the teachings in the book of My First Catechism found in the Holy Bible, against and contradict that God is divided in three persons?

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

DICTIONARY
Person – means can’t do anything, grow tired, have flesh and bones, mortal, visible, can be seen and dies

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

Are the teachings against and contradict to the Holy Bible whom do you entrusted your eternal salvation?

499. Marz says:

Remus, that’s what I observed too. INC defenders just paste and copy arguments from their own sources presumably their Pasugo magazine. However, you cannot blame them for their Ministers do the same thing. They follow word for word what the Central Administration tells them.

500. remus says:

the Catholic Church
1 Timothy 3:15
If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

501. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels

I understand you Mr. Quirino as I’ve been in the Catholic for 24 years but the great love of our God the Father he bring me in the true body of Christ whom Christ acknowledge and his the savior (Ephesians 5:23 & 25, Colossas 1:18).

CHRIST SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD

Whom you shall entrust your salvation, to the words of God written in the Holy Bible or in the teachings against and contradict to the Holy Bible?

Did the true God Father, acknowledge Christ as the true God seated beside God Father?

GOD says;
(Isaiah 45:21 Ibid) For there is no other God but me.
(Isaiah 43:10 Ibid) There is no other God
(Isaiah 46:9 Ibid) I am God, and there is none like me

TRUE PROPHETS says;
(II Samuel 7:22 Ibid) there is no God but you
(I Kings 8:23 Ibid) there is no God like you,
(I Kings 8:60) there is no other
(II Kings 19:15 Ibid) You are the God, YOU ALONE
(I Chronicles 17:20, II Samuel 7:22 Ibid) there is no God but you
(Psalms 86:10 Ibid) You alone is God
(Malachi 2:10 Ibid) Has not one God created us?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(I Corinthians 8:6 Ibid) But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER
(Ephesians 4:6) One God and Father of all
(2 Thessalonians 2:16) God our Father
(1 Timothy 2:5) For there is ONE GOD
(Mark 12:29 Ibid) The Lord our GOD, the Lord IS ONE.

Did the Holy Bible teachings teach that the only God is the Father according to God himself, True Prophets and True Christians? Did the teachings in the book of My First Catechism found in the Holy Bible God Father, God Son & God Holy Spirit, against and contradict?

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 44) We believe that the lord Jesus ascended into heaven and is now seated at the right hand of the father

THE DOGMA OF TRINITY says;
(Page 14) God Father, God Son & God Holy Spirit

Who is the true God?

CHRIST says;
(John 17:1-3 Ibid) 1 Father, the hour has come 3 that they know you, the only true God

Did Christ teachings that the only true God is the Father? Did the teachings in the book of My First Catechism found in the Holy Bible, against and contradict?

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;

(Page 21 & 25) Jesus Christ is True God

What is the true nature of the true God?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(John 4:24 Ibid) God is spirit

Did the Holy Bible teachings that the God is spirit? Did the teachings in the book of My First Catechism found in the Holy Bible, against and contradict that God is divided in three persons?

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

DICTIONARY
Person – means can’t do anything, grow tired, have flesh and bones, mortal, visible, can be seen and dies

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

Are the teachings against and contradict to the Holy Bible whom do you entrusted your eternal salvation?

The apostasy Church rise after the death of our Lord Jesus Christ and his apostles. Did you not know of your fathers murders record? Did you not know or blindly that your Church killed those who refuse to enter your Church?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
( John 8:44) You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

502. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

May I ask one question: how sure are you that you (and your friends who believe the same as you) are going to heaven after you die? 50%, 90%, or 100%?

503. Marz says:

Truth is cutting and pasting again.

504. WARNING: benjie impersonating as TRUTH.

Iglesia ni Manalo, I wish you REASON out. Not COPY & PASTE your answers here. We do not read such a garbage. One paragraph at a time is enough so everyone can understand.

505. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

Knowing the true God give us assurance to eternal life?

CHRIST says;
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent (John 17:3)

Where we go after on judgment day, the second coming of Christ where Christ prefer us a home, a place that no more sadness and darkness?

CHRIST says;
I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God (John 20:17 Ibid)

506. benjie says:

Catholic Defender: God is against false witness or false accusation. You must back up your accusation with proof that I was impersonating “Truth”. The moderator could check the IP address. There’s no reason for me to impersonate anyone. I just read the comments here. Are you living during the time of the “Great Inquisition”?

507. seeker says:

Let’s stick to issues. Catholic Defender is not defending the Catholic Church. That’s the strategy when they lose an argument.

508. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels

Those who know the only true God is the Father brought to eternal life?

HOLY BIBLE Christ says;
(John 17:1& 3 Ibid) Father….And this is eternal life that they may know You, the only true God

WHILE

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

DICTIONARY
Person – means can’t do anything, grow tired, have flesh and bones, mortal, visible, can be seen and dies

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

Whom this world cannot receive?

TRUE CHRISTIAN says;
(John 10:14 Ibid)The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive

Are the teachings against and contradict to the Holy Bible whom do you entrusted your eternal salvation?

And the right understanding concerning the eternal salvation is founded on the teachings of the Holy Bible (II Timothy 3:15-117)

509. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

1. There are many definitions of what is a Person. The definition used by Boethius which is accepted by Aquinas is this: a person is an individual substance of rational nature (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1029.htm). So a person need not be a human being of flesh and bones, but can be an angel, a pure spirit.

2. Let us read Jn 17 in more detail.

“Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (Jn 17:4-5)

Eternal life is not only in confessing that the Father is the only true God, but also in confessing that He sent his Son, Jesus Christ.

“I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do.
Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began.” (Jn 17:4-5)

This means Jesus already existed before the world was made. Notice that he referred to Himself as “I”, which is a mark of a person, because only a person knows that he is distinct from other persons. So Jesus is already a person before the world was made and he clearly knows or remembers that he has glory before the world began. This agrees with the Prologue of John:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be.” (Jn 1:1-3)

“And the Word became flesh 9 and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth. John testified to him and cried out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘The one who is coming after me ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.'” From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace, because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (Jn 1:14)

If you read from the end to the beginning, you can deduce the following:

Jesus = Father’s Only Son,
Jesus = Word became Flesh,
Jesus = Word who was in the beginning with God
Jesus = Word who was God

So there are now at least two distinct Persons who share the same nature as God. But there can only be one God. Indeed there is only one God, because Christ said:

“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one…” (Jn 17:20-22)

Jesus (the Son of God) and the Father are one as God, yet are distinct Persons. No one can be a father if He does not have a son and no one can be a son if he does not have a father. Each one implies the other. If the father is a cat, the son is also a cat. If the father is human, the son is also human. If the Father is God, the Son is also God.

Yet there is only one God…

510. Rudamin V. Villanueva says:

I just wanted to tell you that I appreciate what you are doing. I’ll continue to read your article. thanks God.-Rudy V.

511. artsee says:

The “Word” is a concept. In the beginning, God already has a Plan. And His plan was realized when Christ was born and became flesh. Christ came not to break the Law but to fulfill it.

512. artsee says:

If the Father is God, the Son is also God.

Yet there is only one God…

***If the Father is God and the Son is also God, there are two Gods.

In John 17:4-5, God sent His Son. There’s a Sender and the One being sent. How can God send Himself.

513. Mike Jordan says:

I can’t believe that INC does not believe that our God is Jesus Christ! Why in the h*ll they put the name “Cristo” in their cult’s name? It should be Iglesia ni Yahweh or Iglesia ng Diyos or something. Is it for marketing purposes? When you put “Cristo” in your cult’s name many people will join you? Maybe yes. I believe its freemasons'(mysterious force) work for they treat Christ as “Impostor”. Thank you Mr.Sugon for defending the catholic church! More power and God bless!

514. artsee says:

Church of Christ does not mean Christ is God. Christ is the Head of His Body which is the Church. Check it out when and how the name Catholic Church began.

Freemasonry is a group not just for believers in Christ but for all religions. They have members who are Muslims. The only requirement they ask from potential members is to believe in the Supreme Being.

Do some more research before you open your mouth or begin typing your comments.

515. remus says:

artsee,
i will pray to God that you be enlightened.
you dont need to be a rocket scientist to know that Jesus is God.
i think the bible was written for people,ordinary people just like us who can and will understand simple sentences and follow logical reasoning.remember that the apostles were just simple folk.for the life of me,how it is possible that you missed it.

516. artsee says:

It would be very easy for all to just believe and agree that Jesus is God to avoid argument and go with the flow of the majority. But the belief of the majority is not always and necessarily true.

To end all argument about Christ’s deity, allow me to pose you this query: Where is Christ at this moment? I’m sure you will reply saying Christ is in heaven sitting at the right hand of God. If Christ is also God, then how many Gods are there in heaven sitting side by side?

517. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

1. If the Word is just a concept, a mere idea, or a plan, the proper pronoun should have been “It” not “He”. There are two possibilities: (1) John uses a figure of speech called personification, by ascribing personal qualities to an inanimate object or (2) John fully knows that the Word is a Person. I shall take the second interpretation, for in verse 1:10, John refers to the “true light” as a “He”, a real person: “He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him. He came to what was his own, but his own people 7 did not accept him” (Jn 1:10-11). Thus, if the John refers to the true light as a “He” and to the Word also as a He, and this Word became flesh and dwelt among us (Jn 1:14), then there is no doubt that John really refers to the Word as a person and not a mere concept.

2. Regarding the mystery of the unity of God and their distinction as Persons, the only closest metaphor theologians can think of is light, because Christ is the image of the Father (cf Col 1:15) : light coming from you gets reflected in a mirror and you see yourself. In the case of the Trinity, the image in the mirror becomes a distinct person. There is the origin of the image (Father) and the image itself (Son) yet there is only one God. As Christ said:

“Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.” (Jn 14:9-11)

In Mathematics, if set A contains set B and set B contains set A, then sets A and B are equal. Similarly, if the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son, then the Son is equal to the Father. This equality is not in Persons because the Son can never be the Father; rather, this equality is in the unity of the Godhead. If you are a handsome man, then your image in a good mirror will also be handsome. Similarly, if the Son is the image of the Father and the Father has the majesty and glory of God, then the Son who is the image of the Father also has the majesty and glory of God.

518. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels,

What is the true nature of the only true God?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(John 4:24 Ibid) God is spirit

What the world accept is the teaching of demons whom he deceived the inhabitant of the earth? Are the teaching below deceived you? Does this Church of demons teaching below will bring you to eternal salvation or eternal punishment?

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/

http://www.antichristtruth.com/

http://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/

519. artsee says:

Jesus was born as a Man…grew up as a Man…died on the Cross as a Man…resurrected (by God) as a Man…ascended to Heaven as a Man. He will come back like a thief in the middle of the night. Christ does not know when He shall return except God. If Christ is God, He knows when His Second Advent is.

520. Mike Jordan says:

@Artsee
Where did you research? From your co-freemason members? Freemason came from a cult established by King Herod which is the Mysterious Force. You just tell other wannabe members that you must believe in a supreme being to attract them to join.
Do you also know why 33 is your highest rank? Because you celebrate christ death (33 years old).
Do you want to know other details?
Do some open-minded research before opening your mouth or post funny comments.
Btw, satan is happy for you. :)

521. artsee says:

Mike, better go back to Jordan River. Did I ever introduce myself as Freemason? I’m not. It’s against my religion. I’m a Christian. But I have friends who are Freemasons and many of them are better human beings than you.

Detractors have the habit of branding a group as Cult. If that’s your basis, then all fraternity groups are cults. In fact, the Catholic Church is the longest existing cult with the Pope as the Cult Leader. Isn’t El Shaddai, a Catholic Charismatic Group, a cult with the corrupt Bro. Mike as the cult leader?

522. artsee says:

And Mike, why don’t you answer my previous post about Christ’s deity.
If you disagree that Jesus was born as a Man, grew up as a Man, died as a Man, etc., then explain why disagree. That was the issue and not about Freemason. There are Freemason blogs that would negate your accusation it’s a cult and answer your questions about their symbols. I’m not in a position to discuss such topic ’cause I’m not a Freemason.

523. artsee says:

FYI, someone passed this to me:

524. artsee says:

Here’s for Mike of Jordan and other interested readers. The above video might no longer be available. Since the subject of this thread is the connection between INC and Freemasonry which the author claimed to have similarities, it would be beneficial for some to know more about Freemasonry like what Mike accused of as a cult.

Is Freemasonry a cult?

That depends on what is meant by “cult.” By some definitions, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are cults. By another definition, golfing, bowling, and surfing the Internet are cults. But in the usual use of the term, referring to a group that separates itself from society and its members from their non-member friends, demands slavish obedience from its adherents, engages in brainwashing techniques, confiscates their resources, and sees itself in opposition to established society, absolutely not!

Quite the opposite, in fact: Masonry does not recruit members, does not compel attendance at any of its meetings, charges modest dues and fees (some little changed from sixty years ago, when the dollar was worth a lot more), encourages community service and participation in civic and religious organizations, and allows any member to quit (demit) at any time (providing he has no outstanding financial obligations; otherwise, he is liable to be suspended, but in either case, he would no longer be a member). It is easier to get out of Masonry than it is to get into it!

525. seeker says:

This Blog was created to advocate this cause:

Convert the members of Iglesia ni Cristo. Many members of Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) are former Catholics.

…So, Catholic defenders and apologists must be cautious in their attacks on INC members here trying to defend their faith. One of the main arguments is the Deity of Christ. Yet, INC is not the only Church that believes Jesus as Prophet and a Man, not God. Even the Jews and Muslims do. Actually, the Divinity of Christ is not the only false teaching INC exposes. There are many other false and erroneous teachings by the Catholic Church that led members to join INC. Show us the statistics and figures how many INC members decided to rejoin the Catholic Church. Most who left INC or expelled do not usually join other church groups much more return to Catholic Church. There’s a saying why be like a dog that eats the food it vomited and a pig that’s been cleaned going back to the mud?

Speaking of the Jesuits and without offense, history tells us that they are known for their notoriety.

526. benjie says:

Central to INC doctrine is the belief that the Father is the only true God. He is spirit in state of being “without flesh and bones”, is everlasting, all knowing, does not weary, and has never experienced death.[52] As such, God does not exist in any other form or entity, be it human or otherwise.

In accordance with this view, Jesus Christ, although revered by the Church as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind, is not considered to be an entity of God or God Incarnate. It is believed within the Church that this was the view of God upheld by Jesus Christ and his Apostles as attested to in the Bible: “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” (John 17:3).

Thus, the Church of Christ does not adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity and views such belief as running contrary to Biblical testimony.
 Jesus Christ

The Church sustains the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was made Lord and exalted by the Father far above all principality, power, might, and dominion, with all things having been put under His power and authority as testified in the Bible (Acts 2:36, Ephesians 1:21-22). He is the entity through which salvation is attained and is the Head of the Church of Christ, which He considers His body. Worship of the Lord Jesus Christ must be observed as this has been commanded by God.[52]

Although exalted to a position far above mankind, He is not God nor is he god-man or dual-natured as taught by the church.[53] The Lord Jesus Christ is a man in nature or state of being according to his own testimony: “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God” (John 8:40), and according to the accounts of His apostles (I Timothy 2:5; Acts 2:22; Matthew 1:18, 20). He is made up of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) unlike God who is a spirit in state of being. Human attributes such as hunger, thirst, weariness, and death, attributes the Father is not able to experience, were present in Christ. But, distinct of all mortals, Christ did not commit any sin throughout his life on earth (I Peter 2:21-22).

Contrary to orthodox Christian theology, Iglesia ni Cristo doctrine does not view Christ as having pre-existence.[54] He did not create the heavens or the earth, as this was done by God alone: “I am the Lord the Creator of all things. I alone stretched out the heavens; when I made the earth, no one helped me” (Isaiah 44:24). Rather, before the creation of the world, Christ was foreknown by God to be the fulfillment of the messiah for the salvation of man. This plan is what is taught by the church to be the logos referred to in the Book of John. God, however, created the world in view of this plan, so as that all things He created were for Christ and mediated by Him, as was explained by Apostle Paul: “For in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (Col. 1:16-17)

527. benjie says:

This Blog also advocates the cause against the RH Bill.

Iglesia ni Cristo accepts modern family planning methods or the use of what others call ‘contraceptives’ as long as they are not abortifacient in nature and they do not impose prolonged abstinence from sexual intercourse among married couples.

INC is against abortion because it is a clear violation of the fundamental commandment “Thou shall not kill.”

But INC rejects the rhythm method and other so-called “natural” family planning methods because it is contrary to nature.

Among other things, that method runs counter to the apostolic teaching to all married couples which states “Do not deny yourselves to each other unless you first agree to do so for a while in order to spend your time in prayer; but then resume normal marital relations’ (I Cor. 7:5).”

528. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Seeker,

Even if the Catholic Church is the only Church left who believes in the divinity of Christ, the Catholic Church shall still believe on the divinity of Christ. As Christ said: “But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” (Lk 18:8)

529. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Benjie,

It is not clear from your statement whether INC accepts artificial contraception which is contrary to nature. What is INC’s official stand regarding condoms?

530. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Benjie,

Animals have no souls: when they die, they do not have a soul that goes to heaven. Angels are pure spirits: they do not grow weary, feel hunger, or experience death. Between animals and angels is another creature: Man. Man has a body like that of animals but he has spirit like that of angel and God Himself, because man is made in the image and likeness of God. Man therefore is the bridge between the world of matter and the world of spirit. This makes it possible for man to offer to God something from the material world (fruits or lamb) and God accepts man’s offering through man’s spirit. If the offering is made out of obligation or routine but not of love, God will not be happy with the offering as in the case of Cain; but God is happy with the offering of Abel (Gen 4:3-5)

When man sinned, the offense is directed to God. Thus, only God can forgive the sin. Moses and Aaron can ask God to forgive the sins of the Israelites, but it is still God who forgives. But when Christ came, He forgave sins. The Jews were scandalized: “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who but God alone can forgive sins?” (Lk 5:21). Jesus replied:

“Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–he said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home.” (Lk 5:23-24)

Jesus is the Son of Man because His Mother is Mary. But Christ is also Son of God. The Angel Gabriel said: “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.” From this it is clear that Jesus is both the Son of Man and the Son of God. How can this be? If you cannot even understand how it is possible for Man to be both matter and spirit, how can you understand how it is possible for Jesus to be both Man and God?

The title “son of God” in the Bible can describe angels, prophets, kings, or the whole Israel. So what is special about Jesus? Others are sons of God by adoption or affiliation, but Christ is the only begotten Son. In the Parable of the Tenants (Mt 34:33-41), the landowner (God) sent his servants (prophets) to collect the produce. But the tenants (Pharisees and Jews) beat up the servants and killed many of them. Finally the landowner (God) sent his son (Jesus) thinking they will respect his son. But the tenants then seized him (Jesus), threw him out of the vineyard (Jerusalem), and killed him (on the cross). God has only one begotten Son:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.” (Jn 3:16)

Since Christ is truly the Son of God, then Christ can forgive sins. As Christ said:

“Amen, amen, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. A slave does not remain in a household forever, but a son 17 always remains. So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free.” (Jn 8:34-36)

531. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Benjie,

Since Christ is both the Son of God and Son of Man, His offering of Himself through his Sacrifice on the Cross is received by God the Father as the offering of His Son. God the Father can never refuse the offering of His Son. As Apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrews:

“But in those sacrifices there is only a yearly remembrance of sins, for it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats take away sins. For this reason, when he came into the world, he said: 3 “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; holocausts and sin offerings you took no delight in. Then I said, ‘As is written of me in the scroll, Behold, I come to do your will, O God.'” (Heb 10:3-7)

“Every priest (of the Old Covenant) stands daily at his ministry, offering frequently those same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But this one offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God…

“Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, and since we have “a great priest over the house of God,” let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust…

“Anyone who rejects the law of Moses 15 is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay,” and again: “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:1-31)

So Benjie, read these words of St. Paul very carefully before you become contemptous of Jesus as the Son of God. A fearful punishment awaits those who deny Christ’s divinity.

532. artsee says:

There’s no dispute that Jesus is the Son of God. All Christians including self-proclaimed Christians say they are sons and daughters of God. Does it make them also God? There’s a huge difference between Son of God and God the Son. The Bible speaks of Son of God but nowhere can we read “God the Son”.

533. Winnie ibe says:

Artsee,

The Bible says that, angels and even men are so called sons of God. In the same Bible it says that Jesus His only Son(John 3:16)
May I ask you why is Jesus is said to be His ONLY BeGoTTEn SON?

You should also take notice that in John 3:17 that Jesus was sent by the Father because He loves us.This would only makes sense if Jesus is only His true son(by nature).Sacrifice is
the stamp of His love and Jesus was offered as sacrifice on the cross. If Jesus is mere creature like us,then Jesus death on the cross is not worthy of saving us. It would just be a man who died on a cross like those men who died in the same way before
him. He is truly the son of God then it follows that He is God.we call Him God the Son. We too are sons of God but in different manner,it’s by adoption ,that is why we nor any of the angels are not called ‘only Son of God’

534. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels.

We already know that the Catholic church shall still believe on the DIVINITY of Christ because it was the Church of devil. According to your leader and it was documented.

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

THE SECOND OF COMING OF JESUS CHRIST

He (Christ) was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake (I Peter 1:20).

Did Christ knows his second coming?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(Matthew 24:36) no one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son (Christ), but only the Father (God)

Did the true God, the Father the only one knows the second coming of Jesus Christ?

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
(Matthew 24:36 Ibid) no one knows about that day or hour, but only the Father (God)
(John 4:24 Ibid) God is spirit

If Christ the True God why he doesn’t know the time of his second coming?

Why contradict & against to the words of God written in the Holy Bible?

This message is not intended to hurt anyone. God wants us to be save an uphold the assurance of eternal salvation.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

Are you in Christ or a true Christians if you follow the teaching whom contradict & against the teaching of the Holy Bible?

well said benjie and artsee.

535. Marz says:

Why Jesus is called “Begotten Son”? Because He’s special. In Tagalog…”Astig” or “Bigatin” (Begotten).

536. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Marz,

Be careful with your words. One doesn’t play on the name of Christ and his title as Begotten Son of God. Rather, you bend your knees before Jesus:

“Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name 7 that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, 8 of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father” (Phil 2:9-11)

Fortunately, Jesus is ready to forgive you for such careless words, as long as you ask for forgiveness:

“And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” (Mt 12:32)

537. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

The proper context to read Christ’s words in Mt 24:36 is explained by Christ Himself before His Ascension:

“When they had gathered together they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going 4 to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He answered them, “It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority. But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” (Acts 1:6-8)

Jesus knows the time of His Second Coming but it is not for Him to disclose it.

538. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels,

I understand you because your teaching is anti Christ and the Catholic Church a Church of Devil exposed by your colleagues, one of your Church leader.

Source:
Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

Source: Catholic National, July 1895

The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of human flesh.”

CHRIST says;

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44)

539. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Artsee,

Winnie’s response and mine are the same: Jesus is God’s Only Son and the rest are sons by adoption. As St. Paul said:

“In the same way we also, when we were not of age, were enslaved to the elemental powers of the world. 3 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to ransom those under the law, so that we might receive adoption. As proof that you are children, 4 God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” So you are no longer a slave but a child, and if a child then also an heir, through God.” (Gal 4:3-7)

There are two kinds of truths in the Bible. The first kind of truth is what you can explicitly read in the Biblical passages. The second kind of truth is called a derived truth, which is a result of long reflection on the biblical passages and the teachings handed down from the apostles. In mathematics, the first kind of truth refers to axioms or postulates. The second kind of truths are the theorems and corollaries.

If you think that the divinity of Christ is not obvious to you even though numerous biblical passages attests to this, then the divinity of Christ is a derived truth–a truth derived by the Catholic Church. This puts the divinity of Christ and the phrase “God the Son” in the same footing as that of one of the INC’s derived truth: In the last days, the Church of Christ will be established in the Far East, specifically in the Philippines, even though “Far East” nor the “Philippines” is not mentioned in the Bible.

540. benjie says:

“Far East” is not the only basis the INC believes in the Prophecy that this Church is the true Church. Please read:

The Iglesia Ni Cristo upholds biblical prophecies that are included in their teachings to prove that they are the re-emergence of the original true church founded by Christ in our times, with a premise that the first century church established by Christ turned-away from the original Christian teachings in the Bible.

One of these prophecies is that the original Christian Church founded by Christ, would turn back from being the chosen people of God by going in the ways and acts of the demons after the death of the Disciples of Christ. In other words, an apostasy in Christianity would occur.

They use verses in the Bible such the Acts of the Apostles and the Book of John to prove this apostasy. Despite it was foretold that the first century Christianity would apostatize, the Iglesia Ni Cristo also believes that the original Christian church was prophesied to re-emerge at the biblical time described as “the ends of the earth”, it would rise in the Far East, and would be brought to the west (Isaiah 43:5-6, Moffatt translation). Manalo proclaimed in 1921 that he was the fulfillment of Revelation 7:1-3 which speaks of the angel from the east.[60]

They also hold prophecies about World War I and World War II, one of which is that these were signs about the coming of the end of the earth and that these are the signs of a second coming of the true church and the second advent of Christ. Church members preach that signs would include huge earthquakes,heavy rains,rampant spread of poverty, pain, sorrow,starvation,crises,etc.(any massive or huge disaster and suffering ). They use the New Testament, especially Matthew and Revelation to justify their beliefs and faith. Also, the church has a prophecy about the advent of Christ. To fulfill this prophecy, according to the teachings of Iglesia Ni Cristo, the Gospel of God must be preached all over the earth, whether other people would accept it or not, and within their doctrine it says that after the preaching of the Gospel every perosn should know that the end is near and Christ would advent soon. They use the Gospel of Matthew to justify this part of their doctrine.

These are just some examples of the prophecies that the Iglesia Ni Cristo holds and teaches. This was discussed in formal debates, nationally (Philippines) and even internationally with other major religious groups.

541. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels,

Does the reader of this blog bow down and accept the POPE as there God?

Source: Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous.”

“The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.”

Source:
Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons

Whom teaching is divided?
(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?
(Page 19) Divider

Source: Catholic National, July 1895

The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of human flesh.”

Did the true God Father, acknowledge Christ as the true God seated beside God Father?

GOD says;
(Isaiah 45:21 Ibid) For there is no other God but me.
(Isaiah 43:10 Ibid) There is no other God
(Isaiah 46:9 Ibid) I am God, and there is none like me

CHRIST says;
CHRIST says;
(John 17:1-3 Ibid) 1 Father, the hour has come 3 that they know you, the only true God

TRUE PROPHETS says;
(II Kings 19:15 Ibid) You are the God, YOU ALONE

TRUE CHRISTIANS says; (The true Church in these last days: find it)
(I Corinthians 8:6 Ibid) But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER

542. TRUTH is an INC member. This post talks about the IGLESIA NI CRISTO ni Manalo. Anong ginagawa ng isang PROTESTANTE rito sa forum na ito? TRUTH you are LYING. You are not a Trinitarian Believing individual for quoting anti-Catholic Protestant sites. YOu are an IGLESIA ni CRISTO disguising as someone. You just want to DEMONIZE the Catholic Church.

Members of the INC have been caught a thousand times cheating, deceiving many by “quoting” (daw) some Catholic sources but twisted quotes.

Let me tell you, your own OFFICIAL MAGAZINE says FELIX MANALO and JESUS are the same:

PASUGO Hulyo 1965, p. 12:
“Parehong-pareho ang espiritu ni Cristo sa diwa ni Kapatid na Felix Manalo sa pamamaraan ng pagdadala ng tungkuling tinanggap sa Dios.” (The spirit of Christ and Brother Felix Manalo are exactly the same by the way they handle their divine mission from God.)

PASUGO Mayo 1964, p. 1 ay ganito:
“Inihandog ng Dios ang kanyang sarili sa kanyang huling sugo upang dumiyos sa kanya. Samakatuwid, ang tanging may Dios na huling araw na ito’y ang huling sugo — si Kapatid na Felix Manalo.” (God offered himself to his last messenger so that he (Felix Manalo) may be deified in him. Therefore, the only one who has God in these last days is the last messenger — Brother Felix Manalo.)

Did our official teachings claimed that Jesus and the Pope are the same? On the contrary, it’s your own OFFICIAL MAGAZINE that has that claim. Shame on you for lying!!!

543. remus says:

Truth,
Please do not just cut and paste from anti-Catholic websites.You know and we all know that these sites are not the official publications of the Catholic Church.Let us strive to make an intelligent discussion.This is not helping your fellow INC members and other readers.You know people from other countries are reading this blog also.What I want you to paste is what the INC’s doctrines and beliefs.

544. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

Truth,

I really suggest you quote not from Fr. PAOLO O. PIRLO because we cannot verify his book. I really recommend that you quote from the official Catechism of the Catholic Church because it is freely available online:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

If you can prove any wrong teaching there, then the whole Catholic Church is wrong (and not only Fr. Pirlo). Name the article number and paragraph, and we can easily verify your quotes.

545. benjie says:

Remus, per your request, here are INC’s basic beliefs:

1. The words of God are written only in the Bible. The Bible should be the only basis of service to God. This is the truth which will teach man salvation from punishment on Judgment Day.
2. The Father who created all things is the only true God. There is no Trinity, three persons in one God.
3. The belief that all churches belong to God is false. Christ founded only one true Church – the Church of Christ (Iglesia ni Cristo).
4. The Church of Christ is the Church that Jesus will save (Acts 20:28 Lamsa) because he made this Church His body and heads it Himself – before God, the Church and Christ are one new man (Eph.2:15 NKJV; Col.1:18 NKJV). This is the reason why Christ is able to answer for the sins of His Church without violating God’s law that whoever commits a sin, the same must die for that sin (Dt.24:16). Hence, the belief that salvation can be attained by means of faith in Christ alone, even without membership in the Church of Christ is false. The Church is necessary, not because it saves, but because it is the entity that Christ will save (Eph.5:23 TEV).
5. The Church built by Christ during the 1st century has apostatized (Acts 20:29). It was led away by false prophets which arose in the Church after the time of the Apostles (Mt.24:11 RSV), and those who remained firm in the faith were slain by ravenous wolves (Mt.7:15). The prophesied false teachers who led the Church away were the Catholic priests. They introduced false teachings (1 Tim.4:1,3) into the Church, until the Church became the Catholic Church – a church essentially different from the Church of Christ as described in the Bible.
6. The apostasy of the Catholic Church from the Church established by Christ in the 1st century took place with their turning away from the teachings of God taught by Christ and His Apostles (Worship of Images, Mass, Popes and Priests as vicars or successors of Christ, Mediator Saints, Purgatory). Therefore, the apostasy takes place whenever there is a teaching of God the Catholic Church violates. In view of this, all the doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church should be rejected.
7. We should not be surprised at the number of churches today that are not of Christ. It is not Christ who established them but the enemy or the devil (Mt.13:24-30,36-39 NKJV). These churches that do not belong to Christ are the Catholic Church and her offspring, the various Protestant denominations and sects. Only one Church belongs to Christ, the Church of Christ.
8. Many Protestant groups uphold the belief that faith alone in Christ is sufficient for salvation. They have excluded other conditions such as baptism (Mt.16:15-16), church membership (Jn.10:9,Acts 2:47, 20:28 Lamsa), suffering for Christ’s sake (Phil.1:29), works (Js.2:14,17,20), preaching by the messenger of God (Acts 16:32-33), remaining in the true church (Jn.15:5-6), holding firm and obeying the Gospel (1 Cor.15:1-2 NIV) and enduring and remaining until the end (Mt.24:13). Their faith-alone concept of salvation is in direct conflict with the Bible where we can find pronouncements that man is not justified by faith only (Js.2:24).
9. One should not deny the necessity of one organized church as the Church of Christ.
10. The Church of Christ which emerged in the Philippines in these last days was established by virtue of the fulfillment of the prophecies of God (Isa.43:5 Moffatt) and of Christ (Jn.10:16;Acts 20:28 Lamsa). This is the third group (Acts 2:39) of people in the Church established by Christ. Even the spread of this Church in the Far West (Isa.43:4-6;59:19 NKJV) is a fulfillment of God’s prophecy written in the Bible.
11. The messenger of God (Rom.10:15 NKJV) in these last days (Isa.43:6) is Brother Felix Y. Manalo (Rev.7:2-3). It was not he who built the Church of Christ but it was Christ Himself (Mt.16:18) by virtue of the fulfillment of the prophecy (Jn.10:16). Felix Manalo was only utilized by God as His instrument to preach the pure Gospel of salvation in these last days. His authority as God’s messenger is clearly stated by various prophecies in Scriptures (Is.41:9-10; Is.46:11-13; Rev.7:2-3). Hence, it behooves man to have faith in the commissioning of Brother Felix Y. Manalo.
12. Persecutions cannot be avoided because overcoming it serves as the basis for inheriting the kingdom of heaven (Mt.5:10-12). Thus, whatever kind or extent of persecution a member of the Church of Christ may face, he should not falter or withdraw. He should instead pray to God for assistance in order to overcome religious persecutions.
13. The proper way of joining the Church of Christ is that which is done because of faith (Rom.5:2) in God and in Christ (Jn.14:1-2), as well as the recognition and acceptance of the Church and of God’s commissioning of His messenger in these last days (Jn.6:29). If the motive for joining the Church of Christ is pure and proper, the man who joins the Church would be able to perform all the commandments and Church disciplines, the performance of which proves that he is a true member of the Church of Christ. He does not easily discouraged and neither does he drew back. Instead, he remains firm in his election.
14. Christ should be highly honored and worshiped by members of the Church of Christ because this is the will of God (Phil.2:9-11). Christ should be recognized as the Son of God (Mt.3:7), Lord (Acts 2:36), Saviour (Acts 5:31), Mediator (1Tim.2:5), a holy man who did not commit sin (1 Pet.2:21-22). The attributes mentioned here give no indication to His nature which we believe is of a man (Jn.8:40); He is not the true God. (Ezek.28:2) Man should also renounce the belief that Christ is true God and true man (Hos.11:9)
15. The clear distinctions of Christ from God are proofs that the true God is not Christ. Jesus possesses attributes surpassing the ordinary man, but this does not mean that he is God. God has attributes which we do not find in Christ. If Christ can do wonders such as miracles, all these are done by God, through Him as God’s instrument. On his own powers alone, Christ cannot do anything. Christ Himself states, “I can of my own do nothing.”
16. Teachers of the “Christ is God” doctrine also use the Bible. But we should not allow ourselves to be deceived by them because we cannot read any text in the Bible where Christ says He is the true God. If that is the case, why do they have biblical texts to prove their contentions? Those biblical texts have been given erroneous interpretations (Jn.1:1,14; Isa.9:6) or wrong meanings (1 Jn.5:20) or even based on verses wrongly translated (Rom.9:5).
17. It is not enough for man to join or become a member of the Church of Christ to be saved. He should lead a new life, too. Members who lead a new life are truly of Christ and of God. Thus, all sinful ways should be renounced and he should live by the teachings he has received.
18. Each member of the Church of Christ believes that constant attendance in worship services is one of his obligations. Great blessings accrue to those who constantly attend worship services while great sins are committed by those who disregard this responsibility.
19. The Church of Christ believes that it is God who gave the command to contribute and give thanksgiving offerings to support the needs of the Church. To fulfill these obligations is to lay up a good foundation for the attainment of eternal life.
20. The Church of Christ believes that it is the will of God for us to love one another as true brothers and sisters. Hence, if anyone has sinned against us, we should forgive him and we should reconcile with those who are mad at us.
21. The members of the Church of Christ believe that it is God who forbids the eating of blood and prohibits marriage with those of other faiths. Elopement is an act of disrespect for parents and this is a sin in the eyes of God.
22. The Church of Christ believes that baptism is necessary for one to become a disciple of Christ and for the attainment of eternal salvation. But this should be done in accordance with the teachings of the Bible.
23. The Church of Christ believes that each member should do missionary work or share his faith with others. Each one should learn how to pray to God so that he would not weaken in faith and thus be able to resist temptations.
24. Each member should submit to the Administration placed by God in the Church by means of total agreement with the teachings and rules observed in the Church of Christ.
25. The Church of Christ believes that unity is God’s teaching and that division within the Church is an evil thing. This unity is implemented by the Church of Christ not only during election time but also in all its works in the service of God.
26. The Church of Christ believes that God has determined the Day of Judgment which will take place at the second coming of Christ. This is the great day when the Church of Christ will receive the reward promised by God—the everlasting home for God’s chosen people.

546. joemark l cadangan says:

low po

547. Torontonian says:

Truth,

Just out of curiosity, what is the INC’s explanation for John 20:28?

Thanks.

548. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels,

Is it the Father the only true God?

CHRIST says;
(John 17:1-3 Ibid) 1 Father, the hour has come 3 that they know you, the only true God

Do you want the POPE as your God and continue to follow his teaching??

Source: Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus
Bertanous.”
2. “The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.”

Are all prophesied Christians followed the teaching below, right?

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;

(Page 21 & 25) Jesus Christ is True God
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons;

Whom teaching is divided?

(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?

(Page 19) Divider

Because you are not Iglesia Ni Cristo you are invited to attend our Church pure Bible Study nearest your place. True Christians followed Christ as he said (John 17:1-3 Ibid) 1 Father, the hour has come 3 that they know you, the only true God.

549. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr and his angels,

Who are blessed by falsely say all kinds of evil against Iglesia Ni Cristo the body of Christ? Can they found in the government registration bearing the name Iglesia Ni Cristo ni Manalo?

CHRIST says;
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and FALSELY SAY ALL KINDS OF EVIL against you (Iglesia Ni Cristo) because of me (Christ). 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matthew 5:10-12)

25. The Church of Christ believes that unity is God’s teaching and that division within the Church is an evil thing. This is absolutely the Christ body whom members are united in God’s teaching.

550. Truth says:

To Quirino M. Sugon Jr. and his angels,

You believe what apostle Thomas said at
(John 20:28)Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Thomas was absent and was shock when Christ appeared to Thomas.

BUT you people of this world did not believe us?

CHRIST says;
(John 17:1-3 Ibid) 1 Father, the hour has come 3 that they know you, the only true God

TRUE CHRISTIANS says;
Now Thomas also known as Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came (John 20:24)

Book: My First Catechism
PRIEST PAOLO O. PIRLO SHMI says;

(Page 40) Thomas was not with them.
(Page 21 & 25) Jesus Christ is True God
(Page 15) The only God is divided in three persons;

Whom teaching is divided?

(Page 19) Devil

What is devil means?

(Page 19) Divider

551. Winnie ibe says:

Benjie,Truth,

The early christians nor the apostles ever practiced the use of Bible alone,niether the
founder of the TRUE Church of Christ our Lord Jesus taught this.
So,why would we deviate from the true christian practice?

You should know that it was only in the 4th century when the Bible
canon was settled and it was made final at the council of Trent.
For hundreds of years the TRUE christians relied on some of the writtings
of the apostles(not complete Bible as we now have),Oral teachings from
Jesus and to the apostles,these two plus the TRUE. Church of Christ
guided and still guides us to the ultimate truth-GOD.

The Trinity is not a teaching of division or of the Devil.This is actually a great mystery.
It is in fact a teaching of unity,as how could be a three persons be one?
In like manner ,how could we baptized in one name but it is said to be in the name
of three person(Matthew 28 19:20) ‘..baptize them in the name of the Father and of
the Son and of the holy Spirit. Note that the word use in Greek is ‘onama’ which means
one name only.

Now, on the so called apostasy;no where in the Bible says that the Christ Church will vanished
on the face of the earth and then it will re-emerge again at the end of times.

Reason alone this is an incredulous claim of INC to justify their very existence.
If you Believe in a loving God,a just God then INC claim is far from possible.
Because if God is Love ,how could He left the earth for about 2000 years without
the true Gospel of salvation,without Christ Body the Church.

If you believe in Omnipotent God as we Catholic believes then it follows
that INC’s total apostasy theory is just a claim without substance to it.
Christ Church was built on a rock,was promised that the gates of hell shall
not prevail against to it,her mission is to teach,baptize and
Makes disciples of all nations until the end of times. The church was and