Is Iglesia ni Cristo the Church of Christ?

Fr. Daniel J. McNamara, S.J., during one of our walks years ago, told us: “The Iglesia ni Cristo is neither a church nor of Christ.” It is worthwhile to ponder on his words as Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) celebrates its 95th Anniversary last July 27, 2009–95 years after Felix Y. Manalo made the INC into a corporation with him as the executive minister last July 27, 1914.

A true church of Christ has four marks: one, holy, Catholic, apostolic (c.f. Catechism of the Catholic Church Art. 811 ).   If one of this does not hold, then the Iglesia ni Cristo is a false church of Christ.

1.  Is the Iglesia ni Cristo one?  The INC is is united in doctrine and even in voting. No wonder many politicians who wished to be reelected this coming 2010 elections are all congratulating INC in its 95th anniversary. The INC passed the first test.

2.  Is the Iglesia ni Cristo holy?  The Catholic Church has produced numerous saints: beggars and kings, scholars and soldiers, old and young.  Can the INC name at least one–only one–person in all its history whom they consider as a saint, a man or woman worthy of emulation, whose life reflected the radical message of the gospel–a Mother Teresa, an Ignatius of Loyola, a Francis of Assisi?  The INC can give none.

3.  Is the Iglesia ni Cristo catholic?  Catholicity simply means universal.  The INC is universal in space: the INC is now found in many countries and its mission is to convert the whole world.  But the INC is not universal in time:  where was INC in the first centuries of Christianity, when the truths of the Faith were debated and clarified?  The INC was not there.  It is true that INC proclaims an affinity with the teachings of Bishop Arius (AD 250-336), the founder of Arianism, a heresy which denies the divinity of Christ.  But between Arius and Manalo is 1,600  years of absence.

Catholic also means “according to totality” or “in keeping with the whole” (Catechism of the Catholic Church Art. 830):

The Catholic Church is catholic because Christ is present in her.  “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.”  In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him “the fullness of the means of salvation” which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry of apostolic succession.  The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost and will always be so until the day of Parousia.

The INC also claims this catholicity, for they also adopt the following catholic doctrine:

Ouside the church there is no salvation.

I remembered one of INC’s television show called Tamang Daan, the Right Way in contrast to Eli Soriano’s Datin Daan or the Old Way.  In their show, one of INC’s argument to support their doctrine is a quotation from a catholic author: “Outside the Church of Christ there is no salvation.”  The two INC ministers–always two since two is the sign of Socratic dialogue for knowing the truth–will tell the readers that the text they are quoting has the imprimatur of the Catholic Church.  Then they make a twist of Faith: translate this sentence in Filipino and you will see that “Outside Iglesia ni Cristo there is no salvation.” Oh, what a proof.

4.  Is the Iglesia ni Cristo apostolic? To be apostolic, the INC must be founded by an apostle, in the same way as the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Apostles Peter and Paul. But the fact that INC only celebrated its 95th founding anniversary means that INC could never be founded by an apostle.  An apostle was a person sent by Christ with the authority to preach the Kingdom of God (c.f. Mt 10).  The apostles in turn ordained bishops and gave them authority to govern the church, as Timothy was ordained by Paul through the laying of the hands:

Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate. (1 Tim 4:14)

And these bishops in turn ordain new bishops to take their place.  The Roman Catholic Church, for example, is apostolic because it traces its apostolic lineage from St. Peter, the first bishop of Rome, to the present pope, Pope Benedict XVI.  But who ordained Manalo?  Who laid hands on him?  No one.  He ordained himself.  Oh, I made a mistake.  Protestant pastors ordained him (full story by Emily Jordan).  But INC never recognizes the Protestant faith.  Mainline Protestants at least believes on the Divinity of Christ, which the INC reject. This itself poses a question on the validity of the Manalo’s ordination.  (The validity of the Protestant minister’s apostolic succession is a separate issue.)  So effectively, no one ordained Manalo.  He ordained himself.

5.  Thus, the Iglesia ni Cristo posesses only one mark of the true Church of Christ: it is one, but it is not holy, nor catholic, nor apostolic.  Let us not be deceived.  Not all those who are named Manny Pacquiao can box like the real Manny Pacquiao.  Not all those who calls themselves the Church of Christ or Iglesia ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ.  Only the Catholic Church is.  The Church of Iglesia ni Cristo is a false church, an Anti-Church.  The Christ of Iglesia ni Cristo is an Arian idol, an Anti-Christ.  Let us not be deceived.

About Quirino M. Sugon Jr
Theoretical Physicist in Manila Observatory

651 Responses to Is Iglesia ni Cristo the Church of Christ?

  1. SEEKER says:

    This article was made to satisfy the INSECURITIES of the AUTHOR to the INC.
    Try to search for more literature.
    Your research was bias.
    Don’t fool the readers, just fool yourself…

  2. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me? (c.f. Jn 18:23)

  3. Great insight. May God bless you. I posted your article not to satisfy my insecurites but to satisfy my hunger for truth..

  4. SEEKER says:

    try to settle first the rape cases against
    your priests and bishops.
    Be independent don’t ask money came from gambling just to
    build a house of worship of yours…(PAGCOR PHILIPPINES support the Catholic’s projects)
    Try to be consistent in your doctrines….
    prohibiting priests to marry and abstaining catholics from eating meat during lent are Demon’s doctrines.

    …before making any rotten opinions about INC…

  5. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Seeker, I suggest you focus on the issue: is the Iglesia ni Cristo the true Church of Christ? The Catholic church is both a church of sinners and saints, and they can only be separated on the last day, as Jesus explained in the parable of the weeds and the wheat (Mt 13). Instead of just saying “try to be consistent with your doctrines,” tell me what particular doctrines are inconsistent. Prohibiting priests to marry may be hard saying, but Jesus said:

    [His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
    He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, 8 but only those to whom that is granted.
    Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.” (Mt 19:11-12)

    As for abstinence from meat and fasting for some days during Lent, these are small sacrifices compared to fasting for forty days and forty nights as Christ did, before he was tempted three times by the devil (Mt 4). We Catholics only wish to follow what Christ did. “Man does not live on bread alone but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.” (Mt 4:4)

  6. SEEKER says:

    1 Timothy 4:1-3
    Some Will Depart from the Faith

    Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

    TEACHING OF DEMONS:
    1.FORBID MARRIAGE
    2. REQUIRE ABSTINENCE FROM FOODS THAT GOD CREATED (abstinence from eating meat during lent)

    prove to me that your doctrines are not from demons?

    the BIBLE proved…
    not my own statement…
    not my own opinion…

    Don’t seek just for intelligence, seek for wisdom….

  7. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Seeker, thank you for your precise questions.

    1. The Catholic Church does not forbid marriage, because one of its Sacraments is Marriage or Matrimony. Celibacy is not a doctrine but a disciplinary rule for priests in the Latin-Rite (Roman) Catholic Church; in Byzantine-Rite Catholic Church, married priests are the norm, but bishops are normally unmarried. St. Paul himself encourages celibacy:

    “To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion” (1 Cor 7:8-9).

    The Roman Catholic Church wishes its priests not to marry so that they can follow Christ more closely by “renouncing marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.” (Mt 19:12)

    What Paul refers to in the teaching of demons which forbid marriage are those of the gnostic sects who thinks that matter is evil and spirit is good. They also think that sexual immorality is good, so they forbid marriages.

    2. The phrase “abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth” refer to the issue of abstinence from meat offered to idols in the time of Paul. Concerning this issue, Paul said:

    “Eat anything sold in the market, without raising questions on grounds of conscience, for “the earth and its fullness are the Lord’s.” If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever is placed before you, without raising questions on grounds of conscience. But if someone says to you, “This was offered in sacrifice,” do not eat it on account of the one who called attention to it and on account of conscience; I mean not your own conscience, but the other’s. For why should my freedom be determined by someone else’s conscience? If I partake thankfully, why am I reviled for that over which I give thanks? So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God. Avoid giving offense, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God, just as I try to please everyone in every way, not seeking my own benefit but that of the many, that they may be saved. (1 Cor 10:25-33)

    But during Lent, the Church commemorates the suffering and death of our Lord Jesus Christ. Before his death, Christ told his disciples:

    “So you could not keep watch with me for one hour? Watch and pray that you may not undergo the test. 26 The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Mt 26:40-41)

    To overcome the tests or temptations of the devil, Christ fasted for forty days and forty nights (Mt 4:2) But the disciples were not able to, not even just to pray with Jesus for one hour. So when the trial came and Jesus was arrested, all them fled and Peter even denied Jesus three times. Fasting (not eating a meal) has a function: it strengthens our spirit against temptations. If we could not fast, the second best thing to do is to refrain from eating what we love to eat, and that is meat (you can still eat fish). The Catholic Church is prudent that it prescribes abstinence from meat all Fridays of the year and fasting only during certain days of Lent (only one full meal for the whole day). The money saved by the person from his fasting and abstinence he then gives as alms to beggars or to charitable institutions.

    As an aside, even modern culture have realized the value of fasting and abstinence, not for spiritual reasons, but for keeping ourselves healthy: fasting and abstinence from meat removes excess body fat.

  8. Seeker says:

    hahahaha…
    A hidden Agenda…
    your an Ang Dating Daan Member…
    Defending Catholic Faiths is just your front, to hide your really aim in this blog…:
    that is to put INC down….

    But, nothing to say but sorry……

    decades are passed since ADD attacked and criticize INC…

    but where are ADD’s now?

    What is INC now?

    try to infer, between the two..

    And prove and see to your own self that your just wasting your time…….

    5 years from now INC will reach her Centennial year…..

    and who will to destroy INC…?

    You? All of you? All of you who are very insecure to INC? All of you who are dreaming that time will come INC will collapse and be ruin.

    Who do you think you are?

    Are you God?

    God is with INC…

    proven, tested, seen…

    this God’s work will continue to be dynamic…

    Stop practicing Crab mentality…

    If your church now is near to its end…. accept it….!

    That’s the only way to move-on and search for the truth bro…

    thanks….

  9. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Seeker, thank you very much for the wonderful dialogue. I am not and never was a Dating Daan member, but a Catholic by birth and, with God’s grace, will be also at death. Since Nov 2008, this is my only post about Iglesia ni Cristo; all the rest are about Philippine Jesuits, Catholic Churches, the Traditional Latin Mass, and the Reproductive Health Bill. If you like, I may write more about INC and Dating Daan.

    If 100 years of INC existence proves that God is with INC, what does 2000 years of Catholic history prove? If having millions of members prove that God is with INC, what does 1 billion (1,000,000,000 or 1,000 million) Catholics prove?

    Here is my prayer for you for your journey in search for Truth:

    May the road rise up to meet you,
    may the wind be always at your back,
    May the sun shine warm upon your face,
    and the rain fall soft upon your fields,
    and until we meet again,
    May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

    –Traditional Irish blessing

  10. SEEKER says:

    Don’t be shallow….

    i never stated in my post that quantity matters…..

    nor age matters….

    nor 1 000 000 000 and 2000 years matter….

    Your Boasting 2 000 years?

    2000 years of worshiping Graven IMAGES?
    2000 years of Believing that The FATHER, SON and the Holy Spirit are one….
    2000 years of Praying that the soul of the dead will either go to HEAVEN, PURGATORY and hell?

    Even the word PURGATORY nor TRINITY are not found in the BIBLE…..

    and How sure you are, that you already reached 2000 years older?

    my point here is that INC will face ALL of you…. you, who want’s to destroy the name of INC….

    You branded INC as ANTI CHURCH and ANTI CHRIST…

    But I am not offended nor feel any Anger… because I know that

    sometimes IGNORANCE must be prevail first before WISDOM….

    by the way I want you to post a reply here which include about INC and ADD…

    I just want an assurance that your not an ADD member…

    Try to infer please…. I need an urgent reply…

    Thanks and Gob Bless…

    P.S you have mention Manny Pacquiao please watch this:

  11. Roxanne says:

    To agree with their fallacious human doctrines the Iglesia ni Cristo misappropriates and misinterprets the verses of Holy Scriptures. These errors have existed from the earliest centuries and the Catholic Church was always gloriously triumphant over them. Let them read the writings of the earliest Church Fathers regarding these heresies and errors.

    Regarding the Church, Christ Jesus our Lord and our God has said, “So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it.” (Mt.16:18)

    Indeed the gates of hell can never prevail against the Church because of the most powerful intercession of our Immaculate Mother and Queen. “The Immaculate is She who in Her unbounded and respectful love wills the glory of God, fights the battles of God for overcoming evil, for the triumph of good, crushes the head of hell’s monster and destroys all heresies in the whole world.” (St. Maximilian Kolbe)

    If our hearts are obstinate and proud Truth cannot make its dwelling in us. To those who want to seek the truth let them seek it in humility of heart.

  12. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Seeker, thank you again for your additional points, though I wish you would raise them one by one, so that we can discuss each one in depth. Allow me to answer them one by one as short as possible:

    1. Catholics do not worship graven images but respectfully venerates them. Here is what the Catechism say:

    “Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.”

    In other words, we do not worship the image of Christ but the Christ represented by the man nailed on the cross. We do not worship the saints nor their images but we ask their help, kneeling if possible, for even a young man kneels before his beloved or a knight before his Queen. In both cases, kneeling is not an act of worship but of humility and respect. The image of the saints only help us remember who they are, in the same way as the image of Manalo helps you to remember who he is.

    Even God commands the Israelites to look at the bronze serpent that they may be healed (Num 21:9). This bronze serpent, the sign of death, God uses as an instrument for healing, in the same way as the cross, the sign of death, God uses as an instrument for salvation. As Christ said:

    “And just as Moses lifted up 5 the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” (Jn 3:14-15)

    2. The Dogma of Trinity states that there are “Three persons in one God.” So even if the word Trinity is not in the Bible, the concept of three persons in one God can be deduced from the Bible. Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19). Notice that it is “name” not “names,” so there is only one God, though the Father is distinct from the Son, and so is the Holy Spirit from the two. This is a mystery. No one can fully understand the Trinity unless you are God Himself.

    Christ also prayed to the Father: ” And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me” (Jn 17:22-23) The Holy Spirit is the Love between the Father and the Son.

    3. Catholics pray for the souls of the dead in Purgatory, that they may be cleansed from their sins, so that they may go to Heaven, where “nothing unclean may enter” (c.f. Rev 21:27). The word Purgatory is not in the Bible, but logic suggests it should exist, whatever its name is irrelevant: Since nothing impure, even those who commit the slightest (venial) sin, can enter heaven, even though they have not committed the gravest (mortal) sins to be sent to Hell, where would they go? This is the Good News of the Catholic Faith: we ordinary people (neither saints or terrible sinners) can still go to heaven, but we have to be purged of our sins first (“Purga” in Tagalog refers to the removal of or cleansing from intestinal worms which may be likened to sin in the soul). Those who are in Purgatory are assured of going to heaven, though they have to wait for a while.

    Catholics do not pray for the souls in Hell; they are damned forever. Catholics do not pray for the souls in heaven; rather the souls in heaven (saints or holy ones) pray for us that we may go to heaven, too. This is the Catholic doctrine of Communion of the Saints in the Apostles Creed.

    4. The Bible was made by the Catholic church. Why was the Gospel of Judas, of Peter, and of Barnabas not included in the Bible? Because the Catholic Church said so in the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D. “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written” (Jn 21:25) Only the Catholic Church can interpret the Bible and no one else, for the church is “the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (This is similar to the Supreme Court being the official interpreter of the Constitution.) Ang Dating Daan (ADD) uses this phrase as the official name of their church but it is not the church referred to here (ADD did not exist in the time of Paul): ADD only misappropriated this title of the Catholic Church in the same way as Iglesia ni Cristo misappropriates to itself the title “Church of Christ”. The Catholic church is the final arbiter of truth: “and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector” (Mt 18:17).

    5. Christ said: “do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” So Seeker, be not afraid of the ADD or me. Rather, fear God who can send both body and soul into hell.

    Christ said: “Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father” (Mt 10:32-33). So with Peter let us say: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God” (Mt 16:16). And with Thomas let us exclaim: “My Lord and my God!” (Jn 20:28).

  13. SEEKER says:

    “So Seeker, be not afraid of the ADD or me. ”

    what a rotten thought……hehehehe

    I can’t think any reason why should I be afraid of you specially to ADD…

    As you have said your 1 Billion… so what?

    I admire you, for your ability to state some Verses,,, but, Verse should be interpreted using another verse, not supporting the verse you stated by your own catechism.. because that ABSURD….
    Only Catholics believe in Catechism….

    Not I nor they….

    but only you Catholics…

    If your really Interested about INC doctrines, so that all your wrong literature will be corrected…
    try to approach an INC member and ask him to accompany you to a nearest LOCALE or CONGREGATION….

    and I also will bother to have a deeper question and answer conversation to your church….

    You know what if you want to seek for the truth…

    you should move 1 step away from your initial belief…

    In short be neutral first….

    I have made this process, and I’m sure that I made the right decision to be an INC member…

    My parents are born Catholic….

    I’m the only INC member in the family….

    Don’t be afraid to prove that your beliefs are not biblical and are just supported by own opinion….

    I know your a good man, I can fell it…. but bro… Try to be NEUTRAL….

    Thanks and God Bless!!!

  14. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Seeker, there is no NEUTRALITY in TRUTH. Truth is or is not. Either you embrace it or you don’t. Christ is the TRUTH, for he said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (Jn 14:6) Thus, Christ can truly say: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters” (Lk 11:23). Christ told Pilate: “For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” And Pilate said to him, “What is Truth?” (Jn 18:37). Pilate was blind. Truth is already before him, because Truth is Christ himself.

    I respect your decision to be an INC member, but I hope you did it because you searched for truth and found it and embraced it. I hope you have read the whole Bible and and have convinced yourself that what INC taught you is the Truth. But Christ said: “You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf. But you do not want to come to me to have life” (Jn 5:39-40)

    I could not go to an INC locale or congregation. But this blog is open to INC members and ministers to ask me questions on what the Catholic Church truly teaches. For as Bishop Fulton Sheen said, “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing.” The same holds true in the Philippines.

    May the good Lord bless you on your way and send his angel to take care of you. As the Lord said, “See, I am sending an angel before you, to guard you on the way and bring you to the place I have prepared. Be attentive to him and heed his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your sin. My authority resides in him” (Ex 23:20-22)

  15. SEEKER says:

    We have a very old saying that says “If there’s a will there’s a way”
    I don’t know the reason why can’t you go to a nearby INC locale…

    maybe you have closed your heart and mind to Catholicism…

    And I also respect that…

    Don’t make my statement s shallow…

    Because I know what I am saying…

    and I know and believe that you have understood my statements…

    I said that you should be neutral first before you can seek for truth…

    but not to be neutral for the whole of your life….

    Remember, majority of INC members are former Catholics…

    And I can prove that because I’m a former catholic member…

    God chooses Israel not because they are the majority but the minority…

    not because they are large but because they are the smallest among nation at that time…

    Deuteronomy 7:5 The LORD did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people–for ye were the fewest of all peoples–

    Try to understand what you have said that your number counts to 1 Billion….

    LUKE 13:24 Do your best to go in by the narrow door, for I say to you, A number will make the attempt to go in, but will not be able to do so.

    many will attempt but only few can enter…

    you can’t call 1 billion as few…..

    try now to defend your thoughts about 1 billion….

    remember there will be more to be in hell than to be in heaven….

  16. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Seeker, read carefully Deut 7:5 that you quoted. God chose Israel neither because they are many nor because they are few. Being the minority by itself is not a sufficient condition to be chosen by God. Rather, God chose Israel because of his fidelity to His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. To see this, read the next lines:

    “It was not because you are the largest of all nations that the LORD set his heart on you and chose you, for you are really the smallest of all nations. It was because the LORD loved you and because of his fidelity to the oath he had sworn to your fathers, that he brought you out with his strong hand from the place of slavery, and ransomed you from the hand of Pharaoh, king of Egypt. Understand, then, that the LORD, your God, is God indeed, the faithful God who keeps his merciful covenant down to the thousandth generation toward those who love him and keep his commandments, but who repays with destruction the person who hates him; he does not dally with such a one, but makes him personally pay for it.” (Deut 7:7-10)

    The Catholic church also started as a tiny group–a band of twelve cowards hiding in an upper room. When the Holy Spirit descended upon them on the Feast of Pentecost, the birthday of the church (not 1914 as in INC), they went out of their room and fearlessly preached that God made Jesus both “Lord and Messiah”. On that very day itself, they converted 3,000 people (c.f. Acts 2). The Acts of the Apostles is the story of the birth and growth of the Catholic Church. Like a tiny mustard seed, the Catholic church, the Kingdom of God, grew to become a large tree where the birds of the sky, that is, all nations, dwelt in its branches (c.f. Lk 13:19). The church of 12 men became a church of 1 billion souls.

    P.S. I hope Iglesia ni Cristo finally puts up its own website and publishes its Pasugo and “INC Catechism” there. In this way, I don’t have to go to an INC locale or congregation, for reading a sermon or debate removes the emotions of the speakers, and allows me to concentrate on the truth of the arguments. If you wish to know more about the Catholic Church, you can visit the website (http://www.vatican.va) or read the Catechism book which is easily bought at National Bookstore. The Church lays its teachings open for all men of goodwill. The Catholic church hides nothing, for Christ said: “No one who lights a lamp hides it away or places it (under a bushel basket), but on a lampstand so that those who enter might see the light” (Lk 11:33).

  17. The One New Man (IGLESIA NI CRISTO) says:

    The One New Man (IGLESIA NI CRISTO)

    I don’t know if you already heard about the one new man created in Christ Himself from two. Actually, I heard of it for the first time when I attended a Bible Exposition held in Cebu City by the Church of Christ (Filipino: Iglesia Ni Cristo). I never heard about it during my days in the Roman Catholic Church eventhough I actively performed my duties as the Sacristan Mayor of the Parish of San Agustin, Diocese of Surigao Del Sur. And this teaching is not just a teaching of the Ministers of the Church of Christ but it is the teaching of the Apostles as written on the Holy Bible.

    However, in sharing this truth to you, I need to ask the Bible and let the Bible answer our questions because it is the Bible know this truth much.

    To begin with, let us ask the Bible: Did the Apostle really teach that Christ created in Himself a one new man? Apostle Paul answer:

    15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, (Ephesians 2:15, NKJV)

    According to him, a one new man was created in Christ Himself from the two. What is this ONE NEW MAN and what are the two referred to by Apostle Paul which composed the one new man? In Colossians 1:18, Apostle Paul’s answer is recorded:

    18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. (Colossians 1:18, ibid)

    The answer is: The two which are created into one new man are Christ and His Church and the one new man is Christ as head and the Church as Christ’s body.

    So, it is already clear that Christ really created a one new man. But what is the purpose of Christ, why he created this? Apostle Paul answered it already on the first verse that we used.

    15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, (Ephesians 2:15, NKJV)

    According to him, it was done “to abolish the enmity, that is the law of commandment contained in ordinances and thus making peace”.

    What is the law that Apostle Paul referred to in which when the one new man was created peace does exist? The answer is recorded in Deuteronomy 25:16.

    16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16, ibid)

    The law states that anyone who committed sin will be put to death for their own sin. Is this the reason why Christ died for the sin of others? Absolutely Yes!

    But wait! We already know that Christ died for the others but he never committed any sin, does it mean something contradiction?

    21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us,[a] leaving us[b] an example, that you should follow His steps:

    22 Who committed no sin,

    Nor was deceit found in His mouth;[c] (I Peter 2:21-22, ibid)

    It is true that Christ committed no sin, as stated on the verse above and that all of us (men) are sinners.

    12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned (Romans 5:12, ibid)

    And that the wages of sin is death.

    23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23, ibid)

    Since, all of us sinned, therefore each of us will be put to death because of our sin. In other words, no one will be saved on the day of judgment.

    But God loved us, that is why He gave His Son to us to give us a chance to be saved on His wrath on the day of judgment.

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16, ibid)

    And to save us, Christ created the one new man, as He the head and His Church as His body. In front of God, Christ and His Church is already one new man. For this reason Christ was made to be sin.

    21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (II Corinthians 5:21, ibid)

    And it is now righteous for Christ to die for His Church.

    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, (Ephesians 5:25, ibid)

    Because His Church is already His body and that it is His obligation to be the savior of it.

    23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. (Ephesians 5:23, ibid)

    If Christ died for all men inside His Church, then who will die for the sins of others who are outside His Church? Christ answered it.

    24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24, ibid)

    According to Him, they will die for their own sins.

    Beside the truth that His Church is His body and He is the savior of it, why is it that Christ has no power to save those men outside His Church? Apostle Paul answered?

    13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” (I Corinthians 5:13, ibid)

    According to Apostle Paul, outside God judges. And we already know from the truth revealed above what will be the judgment of God, that is, “each of them will die for their own sins”.

    Therefore, it is not true that Christ died for the sin of all men on earth because the truth is Christ died for the sin of all men in His Church only. It is also not true that Christ will save men who are not part or members of His Church, because the truth is, Christ will save only His Church.

    We should not forget the one new man created by Christ in Himself, and we should strive to become part of that one new man. Take note: Only the ONE NEW MAN is the one who will be saved on the day of judgment.

  18. bro says:

    nice re-post from 2007. ;)
    http://religiousliberal.blogspot.com/2007/11/words-we-use.html
    flashback! lol

    i’d rather follow-up on newer material.

  19. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Bro, thanks for dropping by and Godspeed. May you find something new that never grows old. Some things are new like the “grass of the field, which grows today and is thrown into the oven tomorrow” (Mt 6:30). Some things are new because to us they are new, yet they were here before us, they are here with us, and they shall continue to be here long after we are gone. Just like the mountains and the sky. But Christ said: “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away” (Lk 21:33)

  20. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    The One New Man, I hope you won’t mind if I shall call you Sacristan Mayor. For three reasons: (1) We shall be talking about the One New Man, and we do not wish to confuse it with you, (2) the name Sacristan Mayor adds more weight to your testimony because it conveys that you were indeed a former Sacristan Mayor in the Roman Catholic church, and (3) a person who was baptized by a Roman Catholic priest “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19) becomes truly an adopted son of God, true heir of God’s Kingdom, and this sonship can never be removed even if, like in the story of Prodigal Son, you squandered your properties and left your Father’s house for the allurements of novel teachings of INC and have yourself rebaptized.

  21. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    1. Sacristan Mayor, in order to understand the meaning of the “two” in “one new man from the two” in Ephesians (2:15), you don’t have to go to Colossians (1:18). You just look at the verses before what you quoted and you will see that what Paul refers by “two” are Gentiles and Jews:

    “Therefore, remember that at one time you, Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those called the circumcision, which is done in the flesh by human hands, were at that time without Christ, alienated from the community of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have become near by the blood of Christ.” (Eph 2:11-13)

    Through Baptism we became neither Gentiles nor Jews but Christians:

    “For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise.” (Gal 3:27-29)

    2. Christians form the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ with Christ as its head (c.f. Col 1:18) Christ said to Paul in his conversion, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting” (Acts 9:5). Thus, when Paul persecutes the Christians, he is persecuting Christ himself. Similarly, Christ said: “Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'” This is the Catholic doctrine of the Church as Christ’s Mystical Body. So what INC calls as One New Man is actually Christ’s Mystical Body in the Catholic sense. What INC teaches is not new; it is an old Catholic doctrine that sadly you were not taught, even if you were serving as sacristan mayor.

    3. Since the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ and Christ said that “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (Jn 14:6), then it follows that

    Outside the Church there is no salvation.” (Extra Ecclessiam nulla salus)

    This is a Catholic doctrine which INC also misappropriates to itself. Concerning this doctrine the Catechism says:

    “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church Art. 846)

    But unlike INC, the Church also teaches that some of those outside the Church may be saved:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church Art. 847)

    “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments” (Catechism Art. 1257). But this does not prevent the Church from preaching the Good News:

    “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church Art. 848)

  22. SEEKER says:

    Ang hirap dito kay Quirino Biblia nga ang hawak di naman makaintindi……

  23. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Seeker, may I know what I don’t understand? Are you referring to “It was not because you are the largest of all nations that the LORD set his heart on you and chose you, for you are really the smallest of all nations” (Deut 7:7)? We agree that God did not chose Israel because it is the largest of all nations. I think we disagree on the interpretation of the next clause: “for you are really the smallest of all nations.” This dependent clause is a statement of fact: Israel is really the smallest of all nations. This fact was placed after the independent clause “It was not because you are the largest of all nations that the LORD set his heart on you and chose you” as proof that God did not choose Israel because it is the largest.

    What you want the bible to say is this: “It was not because you are the largest of all nations that the LORD set his heart on you and chose you, but because you are really the smallest.” This is an entirely different statement. If this were true, then there is no more need for the real explanation in the next line: “It was because the LORD loved you and because of his fidelity to the oath he had sworn to your fathers” (Deut 7:8).

  24. eagle lion says:

    If Catholic church was really the continuation of the church established by Christ, why they change the way of baptism?

  25. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Eagle Lion, below is the description of the Sacrament of Baptism from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    “1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate’s head.

    “1240 In the Latin Church this triple infusion is accompanied by the minister’s words: “N., I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” In the Eastern liturgies the catechumen turns toward the East and the priest says: “The servant of God, N., is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” At the invocation of each person of the Most Holy Trinity, the priest immerses the candidate in the water and raises him up again.

    Eagle Lion, may I know what part of the Baptismal rite you think was a Catholic innovation? Is it the baptismal formula (“I baptize you in the name of the Father….”) or is it the pouring of water over the candidate’s head three times?

  26. SEEKER says:

    Eagle Lion

    Just don’t mind Quirino…
    Ok…
    Di niya naiintindihan sinasabi niya eh…
    Ang nakikita lang niya sa Catholisicism kagandahan kuno…

    Hay naku….

    HE’s just fooling his self….

    Sige na jan….

    Lamunin mo yung mga rebulto sa simbahan niyo taz… mag ipon kayo ng pampyansa sa mga Rapist and phedophile na PAri niyo……

  27. Selboy says:

    just want to argue this:

    If the Roman Catholic Church is founded by Paul and Peter, and I learned from the Bible that Christ built his own church, in other words, Roman Catholic Church is not the church built by Christ.

  28. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Selboy, Christ founded the Catholic Church on Peter the Rock:

    “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:17-19)

    In Greek this sounds like “You are Petros, and upon this petra.” Since Jesus spoke Aramaic, what he said was “You are Kephas, and upon this kephas” which is “You are Rock, and upon this rock.” When Jesus said this, the backdrop is Caesarea Philippi where there is a massive wall of rock that is well over 100 feet straight up and about 500 feet wide. The city of Caesarea Philippi was built on top of this enormous rock.

    With this background, we can easily see that Christ founded His Church on a Rock (Peter) in a similar way as the City of Caesarea Philippi was built on top of an enormous rock. Christ is “the wise man who built his house on rock” (Mt 7:24) Christ uses parables taken from daily life as metaphors to teach the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. In the case of Peter, Jesus uses the very place of Caesarea Philippi as a ‘parable’ or metaphor to show the solidity of the Church, the Kingdom of God, that will be founded on Peter.

  29. Selboy says:

    Earlier on your article you wrote that the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Peter and Paul. But now in your reply to my comment, you’re telling me that Christ founded the church and based on the verse you quoted, the church built by Christ was His own church. So, it’s clear based on your declaration that the Roman Catholic Church is not the church founded by Christ… the Roman Catholic Church is the church founded by Peter and Paul, while the true Church was founded by Christ.

  30. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Selboy, the Catholic Church was founded by Christ on Peter the Rock. “Catholic” simply means Universal. The local Catholic churches were founded by the apostles or their successors, the bishops. Thus, the Roman Catholic Church simply means the Catholic church based in Rome, so that the liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church follows the liturgy of that in Rome. This local Catholic Church was founded by Apostles Peter and Paul who both died there. The apostolic succession is traced from St. Peter, the first bishop of Rome.

    There are also Eastern Catholic Churches and they are based on the East. For example, The Alexandrian Catholic Church is founded by St. Mark; The Antiochian Catholic Church, by St. Peter; and the Armenian Catholic Church, by Sts. Thaddeus and Bartholomew. Each of these churches are Catholic because they hold to the same doctrine as the Roman Catholic Church. They only differ in how they celebrate the liturgical rite of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

    In the West, there are Catholics who follow not the Roman (Latin) rite but the Mozarabic and the Ambrosian. The Mozarabic rite is named after the “Mozarab”, a term for the Christian population living under Islamic Spain. The Ambrosian rite is named after St. Ambrose, the Bishop of Milan.

    Thus, in the Catholic Church, there is unity in doctrine but diversity in liturgical rites. As the Catechism says:

    834 Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome “which presides in charity.” “For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord.” Indeed, “from the incarnate Word’s descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior’s promise, the gates of hell have never prevailed against her.”

    835 “Let us be very careful not to conceive of the universal Church as the simple sum, or . . . the more or less anomalous federation of essentially different particular churches. In the mind of the Lord the Church is universal by vocation and mission, but when she put down her roots in a variety of cultural, social, and human terrains, she takes on different external expressions and appearances in each part of the world.” The rich variety of ecclesiastical disciplines, liturgical rites, and theological and spiritual heritages proper to the local churches “unified in a common effort, shows all the more resplendently the catholicity of the undivided Church.”

  31. Selboy says:

    You said, the Roman Catholic Church is the local Catholic church based in Rome. Now, if the Pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church then who is the head of the Catholic Church?

  32. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Selboy, All catholic churches must be in accord with the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, who “presides in charity” over all catholic churches. Each Pope is a successor of St. Peter, the first bishop of Rome. To Peter alone was given the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever he binds on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever he looses on earth shall be loosed in heaven (c.f. Mt 16:19). This power of binding and loosing is applied whenever the Pope officially declares church dogmas (e.g. Immaculate Conception), define what is morally right and wrong (e.g. Contraception is intrinsically evil), pronounce excommunication against heretics, ratify the appointment of bishops, etc. Those who disobey the pope in these matters ceases to be catholic.

    There are other passages that speak of Peter’s pastoral care over the whole Catholic Church. Jesus told Peter to feed His lambs, tend His sheep, and feed His sheep, as proof of his love for Christ (Jn 21:15-17). Peter is the “the faithful and prudent servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household to distribute to them their food at the proper time” (Mt 24:45). Jesus also told Peter: “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.” Only to Peter was given this unfailing faith and the task of confirming the faith of his brethren. This is the basis for the Catholic doctrine of Papal Infallibility.

    Peter is the Prince of the Apostles and the Vicar of Christ here on earth. Since the Church is the Body of Christ and Christ is the Head of the Church (Col 1:18), therefore Peter is the visible head of the Church and the sign of its unity.

    When Peter died, who succeeded him as the head of the Church? The bishops of Rome, the Popes. Whenever the Petrine office becomes vacant, the College of Cardinals elect the new Successor of Peter. This is similar to what happened when Judas died: Matthias took his place as one of the apostles:

    “Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.” Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.” (Acts 1:24-26).”

  33. Selboy says:

    You said that the Roman Catholic Church is only a local Catholic church in Rome. In other words, the Roman Catholic Church is just a small portion of the entire Catholic Church. Then how come that the head of the Roman Catholic Church, the Pope, became the head of the entire Catholic Church? Does it mean that Pope is the head of a local Catholic Church in Rome and at the same time the head of the entire Catholic Church?

  34. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Selboy, yes, the Pope is both the Bishop of Rome and the head of the entire Catholic Church. How come? The explanation may be divided into ten thesis statements. Please tell me which you agree and which you don’t.

    1. Peter is the head of the apostles.
    2. Peter has an unfailing faith and his task is to confirm the faith of his brethren.
    3. Peter has the power of binding and loosing.
    4. The bishops are the successors of the apostles.
    5. The bishops are the head of the local Catholic churches.
    5. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome.
    6. Rome is a local Catholic Church.
    7. Peter is the first Bishop of Rome.
    8. The Pope is the Successor of Peter as Bishop of Rome.
    9. The Pope is the head of the bishops.
    10. The Pope is the head of universal Catholic Church.

  35. Brother Quirino, I can sense in you the intelligence of a Jesuit. Thanks for the prudence in explaining the Catholic Faith to non-Catholics and ex-Catholcs.

    God bless you and your loved ones.

    Thanks for defending Christ and his Church.

  36. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Thanks, Catholic Defender, but I am not a Jesuit. I am only a hobbit who was taught by the Jesuits. I thank God that many non-Catholics visit this blog to ask me questions on what the Catholic church really teaches. Most of their questions are not new. They had been asked before, debated, and answered for a time in the 2000-year history of the Catholic Church. Our task as apologists is simply to find the Church’s answer to these questions and explain them anew. The Catechism is an invaluable reference. You can Google the rest. Best wishes.

  37. SEEKER says:

    watch

  38. Papal Sin says:

    “ANG ASO HINDI TATAHOL KUNG KILALA NIYA YUNG TAO”

    si QUIRINO tahol ng tahol about INc siguro ASO siya ano sa palagay niyo?

  39. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Papal Sin, thank you for calling me a dog, for even the dog eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters (Mt 15:27). In Latin, dog is Canis. Canis familiaris is the scientific name of domestic dog. Domine Canes is “dogs of the Lord”, which is the moniker of the Dominicans, the Order of Preachers whose preaching destroyed the Albigensian religion in the 14th century. Like the INC the Albigensians believe that Jesus is just a mere creature and not God. I am a Dominican, because I was taught by the Dominican sisters in elementary. So I really appreciate that you call me a dog for that is who I am: a dog of the Lord. But fear not. A dog that barks don’t bite. A man who speaks don’t fight.

  40. Rapist Pope says:

    hahahhahaha….

    relax… from now on… your “quirino the great dog”…. hehehehhehehe

    aw aw aw……

    kagatin mo yung mga rebulto niyo….

    me aso din naman sa simbahan… I dont know the name… but me nakita ako once… ung rebulto me kasamang aso…

    imagine pati yun hinahaplos ng mga Katoliko…..

    eiw……

    rotten faith…

    Qurino the dog

  41. manalo faggot says:

    Iglesia ni Manalo, iglesia ng mga mangmang, mga magnanakaw, mga hunghang at mga kampon ni Satanas, walang magawa sa buhay kundi nakawin ang pera ng mga kaanib, sumakay na lang kayo sa mga spaceship niyong mga tambakan, este, sambahan nang masunog na kayo lahat ng araw. Iglesia ni Manalong may maharot na kangkarot, iglesia ng mga sinungaling at mga tanga, iglesiang nagpapanggap na tunay pero puro kasinungalinga’t katarantaduhan lang pala!

  42. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    My friend, I allow the members of INC to call me names, for three reasons:

    (1) it reveals that INC members cannot anymore focus on arguments that they resort to name-calling. This means that INC is not a reasonable religion, but a cult. A true religion is reasonable because truth can be obtained by reason.

    (2) Christ said: “A good tree does not bear rotten fruit, nor does a rotten tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not pick figs from thorn bushes, nor do they gather grapes from brambles. A good person out of the store of goodness in his heart produces good, but an evil person out of a store of evil produces evil; for from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks”. (Lk 6:43-45)

    (3) St. Peter said: “Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame” (1 Peter 3:15-16)

    Thank you.

  43. United Caatholic & ADD says:

    hahahahah…

    ngsama ang ADD taz Catholic…

    heheheh nakakaawa sila… ngkakampihan ang mga galit na galit na galiot na galit sa INC…..

    keep up the good work….

    at least yung isang barangay ng ADD nadagdag sa ilang dosenang Dios ng Catholic……

    hahahahahaha….

    Mga Looser…

    Manalo Faggot,

    halatadong ADD ka….. naamoy ang budhi mo pati sa monitor ng PC ko….

    amoy INSECURE….

    Quirino,

    wag kang magmalinis……

    para kang santo kung tumahol….

    Banal na aso, Santong kabayo… natatawa ako e e e eli Soriano…. kabayo…. wahahahahahah

  44. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    I have now shown that INC members are indeed not reasonable. Now, I shall moderate the comments. Comments which do not make a theological argument will be deleted. Thank you.

  45. SEEKER says:

    To Brother Quirino….

    Please be awre and inform that not all Blogger who defend INC is an INC member….

    Some of those are just trying to give a bad impression about INC…

    They used foul words, and degrade others by saying that they are INC member…

    Please don’t make any hasty generalization…

    that obe who defend INC is already an iNC member…

    that’s the tactic of others who want to make INC shameless whwn it comes to blogging…

    And also some are just changing their name but it only constitutes a single person…..

    We INC member are taught to be accountable and liable in our statements…

    And I am shocked when my name was used…..

    Thanks Brother Quirino and MAbuhay…..

  46. SEEKER says:

    HINDI PO SILA IGLESIA NI CRISTO BROTHER>>>

  47. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Thank you, Seeker. I am glad you wish to live up to your name as member of Iglesia ni Cristo. As Jesus said to Nathaniel: “Here is a true Israelite. There is no duplicity in him.” (Jn 1:47)

  48. Hello Seeker,

    I hope what you are saying is right. But do you know CONRAD J. OBLIGACION? He’s an full fledge INC who stole names (including mine), call me by different names and he’s very proud INC member. See how he argues in http://www.pinoyexchange.com.

    Give me names of your Ministers who have done the “Mother Teresa” works of charity? Or anyone from INC tried to reach out to Catholics? If you are a bonafide INC then you are one of a kind and we have a lot of things to agree than to disagree.

  49. SEEKER says:

    Quirino,
    Thanks, for believing…. And Can I ask something for you….
    could we stop branding any Church in negative form…..?
    If we want to know the answers for all your questions… the best way I think is to bother your self to ask a minister…. because honestly, the skill of the INC ministers are different as that of INC members…

    And one thing more… don’t moderate the messages who attacked you personally and telling their selves as an INC member, which I know and you know that they are not….. they are just a cult who try to pull down INC. Hayaan mo lang sila diyan, diyan sila masaya eh…..

    minumura nila yung mga ka blog nila din mgpapakilala silang INC which is not true naman…..

    To Catholic Defender….

    Once again it is easy to use such name… so wag sana tayong maniwala na kapag me nagdedefend sa INC eh INC na un…

    Nagmumukha silang Ignorante sa pagsagot, syempre ngpakilala silang INC eh, which is hindi naman di ba…

    I know that you know how ADD attacks INC it’s been decades, na pagmumura at paninira sa INC… pero look at them now… me naaabot ba sila?

    And one thing more can you please elaborate your message in the 2nd paragraph of your message>?
    di ko kc maxaong na gets

    Thanks Quirino ang Catholic Defender

    Mabuhay……..

  50. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Thanks, Seeker. But Christ commands us to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Mt 28:19-20). Convert, baptize, teach. We respect the members and ministers of INC as fellow human beings, but because we are also concerned about their eternal salvation, we have to point out errors in INC’s teachings. Truth is one. The Christ of Catholics is different from that of INC. For Catholics, Christ is true God and true man. For INC, Christ is only a mere man. If the eternal salvation of the soul depends on the belief on the divinity of Christ, then it is my Christian duty to proclaim the “one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]” (Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed 381 AD)

    I don’t attack persons but wrong deas. It is possible to defend the truths with clear arguments without resorting to name calling. I shall now formally open my blog to questions from former Catholics of INC who wants to know what the Catholic Church really teaches. I shall do this in a new post. I found some texts of the Pasugo online. I shall read through them and comment on the arguments, though this will not be frequent since I have other priorities in this blog: Philippine Jesuits and the Traditional Latin Mass. I shall post my critique. If the ministers of INC will also comment on my posts, I will be happy. All of these done in a civil way.

    Take care.

  51. Pingback: “One New Man” of Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) and the “Mystical Body of Christ” of the Catholic Church « Monk’s Hobbit

  52. CONRAD J. OBLICAGION is a true bonafide Iglesia ni Cristo member which he denied. He stole my name, created a bogus blog bearing my Christian name to humiliate me attacking my personality rather than the issues I addressed.

    Now tell me SEEKER, who is and who is not!

  53. SEEKER says:

    I DONT KNOW about that Catholic Defender…

    Ok Quirino, you can continue your blog against the teachings of INC , primarily it’s your freedom….

    Pero wag kang aasa na dahil lamang sa blog na ito ma iimpluwensyahan mo ang sinumang INC member na mgbabasa nito…

    For A catholic, YES, they will definitely believe you..

    For non-catholic and non-INC they MIGHT believe you….

    But, for INC members,,,, MALABO bro….

    We iNC members are STRONGLY believe and follow our faith to God….

    Okay? Just keep trying… malay niyo me maakit kayo kahit papaano, pero I’m sure ngayon pa lang walang maniniwala kung ano man ang sasabihin niyo against INC….

    Because we know in our selves that those criticisms against INC are not TRUE….

    Thanks and Mabuhay…

  54. Pingback: Reply to Iglesia ni Cristo: Prohibiting priests to marry and abstinence from meats are doctrines of devils? « Monk’s Hobbit

  55. INCFOREVER says:

    I find this post rather hilarious. Could it be that you are way too insecure about you’re own religion that’s why you had to post this? Or possibly you overly obsess about us and our religion that you’re in denial that you actually want to become an Iglesia yourself? And why are you so against our religion anyway? If you were so against Iglesia then why do you care so much? There is that saying “the more you hate, more you love”. I believe that saying applies to you. Because if you didn’t care and obsess about our religion then you wouldn’t put all that time and effort into writing this blog. You could’ve written about… uhh perhaps…. your religion?
    Think about it ;) and I wouldn’t be surprised to see you joining our church one day. See you soon ;)

  56. INCFOREVER says:

    Iglesia Ni Cristo.

    I love Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church.

    Come to our church.

    So will I see you this mid-week worship service?

    No reply mean….. YES! Alright see you then. :D

  57. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    INCFOREVER, may I know the scriptural basis of INC for holding your worship services in midweek or Sunday and not in Saturday (Sabbath)?

  58. displ@y says:

    Truth is a lot has been misinterpreted by INC. But it is not their fault because sometimes, we Filipinos, even being the largest Catholic country in the Philippines, are not well “taught” about our own faith. For example some Filipinos, the church must admit, are really worshiping images even though it is not the teaching of the Church, in fact, it is against its teaching. The images are just there for veneration and for a reminder.

    But what INC should realize is that it should not take the bible as it is. INC should consider the historical and cultural background of the Scriptures for they were made for very specific audiences of their time and place. There are some things which we cannot fully understand, which will cause us to misinterpret things, if we do not understand the situation of the original audience. We should remember that Scriptures are on one level the Word of God and is in fact “God-breathed” but it is also on the other hand written by a human writing for a specific audience. The bible did not fall down from the heavens. The bible was written by humans.

    One example of how easily the bible can be misinterpreted when we do not put ourselves in the situation of the authorial audience is Arianism. When the original Christians tried to communicate their faith for the Greek, the Greek accepted the faith but misinterpreted it. It is because Greek philosophy was unable to cope and understand the basics and fundamentals of Christianity. Greek philosophy claims that Jesus is logos, (“reason” in Greek but “word” in Hebrew. I suggest that you further research what the logos meant for the Greeks in order to fully understand the next parts which I would be discussing.) and that Jesus is made of spiritus, the same “divine stuff” which God is made. Greek philosophy says that the Father is one and the Son is another, both are divine but the Father is “more divine”. Arius, “father of Arianism” so to speak, expanded this idea and claimed that if the Son is not fully divine then it is not divine at all. The logos was simply God’s first creature. This claim of Arius, to be honest, is actually very sharp. This is because in Greek philosophy, God is something who is incapable of changing, on the other hand, Jesus moved in the realm of this changeable and imperfect world. God is the total opposite of humans in Greek philosophy. God was immutable, perfect and divine while humans are far from perfect and divine. And in here lies the problem. Greek philosophy was unable to grasp a God who was supposed to be the total opposite of humans, (at least according to their philosophy) who became a human and taught us how to be a human. But the foundation of Christianity is about a God who so loved us that he became human and died for us, a very different view from what Greek philosophy see in Christianity.

    I think INC should learn from this mistake. Because INC gets most of it teaching in SCRIPTURE ALONE which is just plain stupidity in my opinion.

    (Please feel free if you see any mistake in my post)

  59. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    A few [Arians], being shrewder–the two Eusebiuses among them–decided that with an insignificant alteration of words, their doctrines could survive. For the word homoousios, which means ‘of the same substance,’ they substituted homoiousios, meaning ‘of similar substance.’ There was only an iota of difference between these two words, but this difference, so slight in appearance, is a fundamental one, and the magnitude of the matter at stake should not be mistaken. Between homoousios and homoiousios there was an abyss: on one hand identification with God, on the other mere resemblance, which simply means nondissimilarity. The subtle genius of the Greeks grasped this difference perfectly, and the precise historic mission of the Eastern Orthodox Fathers was to be the task of maintaining this identification, despite all seductions, temptations and quibbling. This piece of orthographical cunning was to have very serious consequences.

    … The text which the council adopted, in order to establish Catholic dogma in the face of attacks by Arius and his supporters, has remained fundamental in the Church until our own day. A new ‘rule of faith’ was laid down. It did not differ substantially from that followed by the first Christians–the ancient ‘Apostles Creed’–but it was more explicit, drafted in such a way that no error could creep into it. This text is the Nicene Creed… As issued by the Council of Nicaea, this Creed is as follows (words in italics and brackets are those which were added later in the interest of clarity):

    We believe in one God, The Father almight,y Maker (of heaven and earth), and of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, that is to say, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God; Begotten not made; consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made, Who, for us men, and for our salvation, came down (from Heaven), and was incarnate (by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary); and was made man; (He was cruicified also for us), suffered (under Pontius Pilate, and was buried). The third day he rose again (according to the Scriptures); and ascended into heaven (amd sitteth at the right hand of the Father): and he shall come (again with glory) to judge both the living and the dead (of whose kingdom there shall be no end). And I believe in the Holy Ghost…

    The value of the fourteenth century theologians lies in the fact that they understood this and that, in order to resist their enemies, they perseveringly sought and found formulae explicit enough to safeguard the divinity of Christ, which is the whole essence of Christianity. Each little turn of phrase was aimed at removing a heretical threat. Each word, too, was charged with meaing. Reading the, one realizes how violent and how moving had been the debate on the ‘consubstantial,’–and, for all the precision that men had attempted to give these formulae, how wide open the field still remained to dangerous interpretations.

    Source: Henri Daniel-Rops, “The Church of Apostles and Martyrs”, vol. II (Image books, New York, 1962), pp. 208-212.

  60. Along the line while Mr. Quirino and members of the cult of Manalo were exchanging words, have you noticed the difference? One is explaining through the Bible and reason and one is attacking Mr. Quirino by calling him by names without addressing the issue at hand.

    This is typically INC and I can attest to this style. Nowhere in any place on earth have I seen a member of the cult with reasonable explanations.

    I am afraid the hostile SEEKER and the “all-of-a-sudden” meek SEEKER are one and the same. “United Caatholic & ADD” and “Papal Sin” and “Rapist Priest” is just one person hiding his real identity for fear of attacking him too.

    Any INC member with courage come out and give us your personal link where we can address you properly by name?

    I guess NONE will!

  61. laycarmelite says:

    Your observation is very very true. They don’t address the issue at hand. Either the attack the person by ad hominem fallacy or by polemics (namimilosopo). Proven yan sa isang INC e-group discussion where I am a participant. Ganyan sila kapag hindi nila kayang ma-depensahan ang kanilang paniniwala. Some of the INCs I have known in the discussion group are very rude and one INC called my office phone and bad mouthed our office receptionist because in one of my email exchanges I have caught them in a position that they cannot defend their doctrines.

  62. They’re prone to violence when cornered. In e-forums, they all hide their real identities but feasts on anyone they knew of. They are all cowards. In fact not even the INC central can expose their OFFICIAL TEACHINGS in the internet! They are all hiding everything– from their official teachings, from their real number of affiliates, from their monthly collections, etc.

  63. Few things I’ve noticed between Mr. Quirino and the Defenders of Iglesia ni Cristo. One, the Defenders of Iglesia ni Cristo tries to avoid directly answering the arguments posted by Mr. Quirino, in Psychiatry we call it Tangentiality. They keep on presenting new arguments a bit related to the original one but they never hit the point. They raise new questions and new topics without presenting their evidence that would debunk Mr. Quirino’s propositions. Second, I’ve been reading the commentaries posted here by those who are against Mr. Quirino and I have this feeling that he’s talking to or debating with childish people who cannot present a strong defense for their argument, rather they opted to commit ad hominim fallacies, argumentum ad ignorantum, and fallacy of false cause to cover up their shallow-mindedness…It seems to me that these people does not know the rules being followed during debates. About the commentary made by “the Seeker”, “Ang hirap dito kay Quirino Biblia nga ang hawak di naman makaintindi……” – as far as I know, it’s “the Seeker” who does not understand the Bible he’s using…because reading Mr. Quirino’s reply, I can say there is dept and coherence in his statements…may I ask if Mr. Quirino has degree in Philosophy?

    I’m an agnostic and a graduate from UP Diliman currently taking up Medicine in UERM, but now in I am in search for the “Truth”. I enjoy joining debates and reading blog such as this…I’ve been talking to many INC members before and I’ve meet some of their pastors…and what can I say is….the things that you’ll hear when you talk to them face to face is much the same as what you can read from the replies by INC members to Mr. Quirino’s blog…it’s all but shallow propositions…in fact if you’ll close your eyes while listening to them, you’ll mistake them with a 3 year old kid.

  64. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Agnostic in Search for Truth,

    Thank you. My degree is in physics and not in philosophy. But since physics is a branch of philosophy, you can say that I have a degree in philosophy. I only studied 16 units of philosophy as an undergraduate at Ateneo de Manila. Our philosophy courses may be different than that of UP Diliman, e.g. we don’t have Logic as a course. But we get to read and discuss some selections of Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Levinas, Aquinas, Augustine, etc.

    If I am not mistaken, an agnostic does not deny the existence of God; he only says that God is not knowable. This is in a sense true, because of the infinite distance between God and his creatures. But the Good News is this: since it is difficult for us to know who God is by our own powers, God took the initiative to reveal himself by making a covenant with men starting with Abraham. He revealed his name to Moses as “I am who am”. He revealed his laws in the Ten Commandments. He sends prophets to remind Israel of what He said and His promise of a Redeemer. Since Man cannot redeem himself from sin by his own powers, God took again the initiative and became man like us except sin. The Son of God became the Son of Man, so that man may share in the divine life. Jesus, the Son of God, revealed the Father (c.f. Jn 14:9). And before Jesus ascended into Heaven, he at last revealed the Holy Trinity” (c.f. Mt 28:19-20).

    Since God has revealed Himself, therefore God is knowable.

    Quirino

  65. tasyongtambay says:

    It is true that the article lacks some concrete references on its claim.

    But I do think that the Iglesia Ni Cristo can be considered to be a cult of Christianity.

    Many of its Biblical claim are flawed. While the Catholic Church also holds numerous heretical traditions, they were, generally the same. Both were religious systems with a head. Both were centralised. Both of them have heretical doctrines. And both of them are not of Christ.

    Mr. Agnostic wants to seek the truth. Well, that’s good. The Master said “Seek the truth. . . . ”

    Well, He also said that “He is the way, the TRUTH, and the life”.

    I suggest that you seek Him. The Bible is open.

    I wish I could talk to you sometime. .

  66. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    TasyongTambay,

    May I know what religious sect you belong to? I hope it is not also “Church of Christ”. I am sorry I could not talk to you in person. I prefer that we write our conversation, so that more people can read our thoughts. You may write it here or in the other post on “Monk’s Hobbit Welcomes Questions from Members of Iglesia ni Cristo”.

  67. tasyongtambay says:

    Mr. Q. M Sugon Jr.,

    I count myself as a Christian ( in a sense) but in a sect, well, I am a non-denominational. I’ve studied the Iglesia Ni Cristo for seven years and I pitied those mob who are caught in that Christian cult.

    I am not a “sola scriptura” advocate, but I believe in Biblical innerancy and it’s authority to falsify and rebuke the heretical doctrines of numerous cult system, specially here in our country.

    Napakadaling magtayo ng negosyong-relihiyon dito sa atin, kaya’t padami ng padami ang mga grupong pinamumunuan ng mga hidwang leader.

  68. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    TasyongTambay,

    May I know the reason why you believe in the inerrancy of the Bible? For example, how can we be sure that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are free from doctrinal error, while other gospels like those named after Thomas, Peter, and Barnabas are false gospels? Fans of da Vinci Code may argue that these hidden or apocryphal gospels are true.

  69. tasyongtambay says:

    The Scriptures, e.i, the Canonical Books of the New Testament are historically, and internally, free of doctrinal errors. Compared to the “apocryphal” books, the 27 books of the N.T canon has authentic and written witnesses and documents from the time of the Apostles, to the early Church Fathers, and until today by all Biblical scholars from many Christian denomination.

    Also, the systematic theology present to all the 27 books are proofs of it’s innerancy, due to the fact that the books are written by different authors and at different times. Well, as for the gospels of Thomas, Phillip, and Judas, we have the common sense to judge us that those books were “uninspired” and have no authentic linkage toward the mainstream Christian theology at the time that it was written. Consider it’s claim paralleled to the canonical NT. They were produced by Gnostics, which, historically, were bunch of heretics.

    Archaeological findings are also paralleled to the Scriptures. So as history and literature.
    We have also numerous Greek texts as early as the first century A.D that provides checking points for verse-per-verse comparison.

    Well, as for the “apocryphal”, what they have were bits of books having incomplete portions. The date are much later than sooner to the canon, and what we have as a documented testimonies were the “bad integrity” from such Church Father as Ireneus, that those were man-made books, fictitious, and have no authenticity.

    Have you already read Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code, and the apocryphal gospels themselves?

    And also, I am in agree in some point to the Catholic Church about the authority of the Canonical books.

  70. laycarmelite says:

    Tasyong tambay,

    May I know what is the “heretical” doctrine of the Catholic Church which you have mentioned.

  71. tasyongtambay says:

    The Wrong, Fake, Unbiblical Gospel of yours

  72. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Tasyong Tambay,

    Do you mean that the Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are unbiblical? Please be more precise.

  73. Truth says:

    ANG PINAKA ARAL AT UTOS NG MGA TAO
    NA TAGA SANLIBUTAN

    At sinabi niya sa kanila, Mabuti ang pagkahula ni Isaias tungkol sa inyong mga mapagpaimbabaw, ayon sa nasusulat, Ang bayang ito’y iginagalang ako ng kaniyang mga labi, Datapuwa’t ang kanilang puso ay malayo sa akin. Datapuwa’t walang kabuluhan ang pagsamaba nila sa akin, Na nagtuturo ng kanilang pinakaaral ng mga utos ng mga tao. Nilisan ninyo ang utos ng Dios, at inyong pinanghahawakan ang sali’t-saling sabi ng mga tao. At sinabi niya sa kanila, Totoong itinatakuwil ninyo ang utos ng Dios, upang mangaganap ninyo ang inyong mga sali’t-saling sabi (Marcos 7:6-9).

    At nalalaman natin na ang hatol ng Dios ay ayon sa katotohanan laban sa kanila na mga nagsisigawa ng gayong mga bagay (Roma 2:2).

    Nguni’t hayag na sinasabi ng Espiritu, na sa mga huling panahon ang iba’y magsisitalikod sa pananamapalataya, at mangakikinig sa mga espiritung mapanghikayat at sa mga aral ng mga demonio (I Timoteo 4:1),

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Sumamba, Lumuhod At Maghain Sa Fiesta Sa Mga Larawang Binubo O Rebolto

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 5A
    at Pahina 5K)

    Huwag kang gagawa para sa iyo ng larawang inanyuan o ng kawangis man ng anomang anyong nasa itaas sa langit, o ng nasa ibaba sa lupa, o ng nasa tubig sa ilalim ng lupa: Huwag mong yuyukuran sila, o paglingkuran man sila; sapagka’t akong Panginoon mong Dios, ay Dios na mapanibughuin, na aking dinadalaw ang katampalasanan ng mga magulang sa mga anak, hanggang sa ikatlo at ikaapat na salin ng lahi ng mga napopoot sa akin; Huwag kayong gagawa ng ibang mga dios na iaagapay sa akin; ng mga dios na pilak, o ng mga dios na ginto, huwag kayong gagawa para sa inyo (Exodo 20:4-5 & 23).

    Ito ang wakas ng bagay; lahat ay narinig: ikaw ay matakot sa Dios, at sundin mo ang kaniyang mga utos; sapagka’t ito ang buong katungkulan ng tao (Ecleisastes 12:13).


    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Tawaging Ama Ng Espiritu O Father Ang Mga Taong Namumuno Sa Pang Relihiyon

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 5G)

    At huwag ninyong tawaging inyong ama ang sinomang tao sa lupa: sapagka’t iisa ang inyong ama, sa makatuwid baga’y siya na nasa langit (Mateo 23:9).

    Ang Dios ay Espiritu: at ang mga sa kaniya’y nagsisisamba ay kinakailangang magsisamba sa espiritu at sa katotohanan (Juan 4:24).

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Taong Nagpapatawag Na Ama Ng Espiritu O Father: Ang Mga Namumunong Pang Relihiyon Na Kumain ng Tinapay at Uminom ng Dugo o Alak (Oras ng Communion).

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 5B & 5C)

    Huwag mong ihahandog ang dugo ng hain sa akin, na kasabay ng tinapay na may lebadura; o iiwan mo man ang taba ng aking pista sa buong magdamag hanggang sa kinaumagahan (Exodo 23:18)

    Huwag kang maghahandog ng dugo ng hain sa akin, na kasabay ng tinapay na may lebadura, o magtitira man ng hain sa kapistahan ng paskua hanggang sa kinaumagahan (Exodo 34:25).

    Huwag iinom ng alak o ng matapang na inumin man, ikaw o ang iyong mga anak man, pagka kayo’y papasok sa tabernakulo ng kapisanan, upang kayo’y huwag mamatay: magiging palatuntunang walang hanggan sa buong panahon ng inyong mga lahi (Levitico 10:9):

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Taong Nagpapatawag Na Ama Ng Espiritu O Father: Ang Mga Namumunong Pang Relihiyon Na Naghahandod ng Kamangyan o Incenso.

    At apoy ang lumabas na mula sa Panginoon, at nilamon ang dalawang daan at limang pung lalake na naghandog ng kamangyan. Upang maging pinakaalaala sa mga anak ni Israel, upang sinomang ibang tao na hindi sa mga anak ni Aaron ay huwag lumapit na magsunog ng kamangyan sa harap ng Panginoon; upang huwag magaya kay Core at sa kaniyang mga kasama: gaya ng sinalita ng Panginoon sa kaniya sa pamamagitan ni Moises (Mga Bilang 16:35 & 40).

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Taong Nagpapatawag Na Ama Ng Espiritu O Father: Ang Mga Namumunong Pang Relihiyon Bawal Sa Kanila Ang Magasawa.

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 5E)

    At siya’y magaasawa sa isang dalagang malinis (Levitico 21:13).

    Nguni’t hayag na sinasabi ng Espiritu, na sa mga huling panahon ang iba’y magsisitalikod sa pananamapalataya, at mangakikinig sa mga espiritung mapanghikayat at sa mga aral ng mga demonio, Na ipinagbabawal ang pagaasawa, at ipinaguutos na lumayo sa mga lamangkati, na nilalang ng Dios upang tanggapin na may pagpapasalamat ng mga nagsisisampalataya at nangakakalam ng katotohanan (I Timoteo 4:1 & 3).

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Bawal Kumain ng Karne (Panahon ng Simana Santa).

    At sabihin mo sa bayan, Magpakabanal kayo, para sa kinabukasan, at kayo’y magsisikain ng karne: sapagka’t kayo’y nagsisiiyak sa pakinig ng Panginoon, na sinasabi, Sinong magbibigay sa amin ng karne na aming makakain? Sapagka’t maigi kahit nang nasa Egipto: dahil dito bibigyan kayo ng Panginoon ng karne a kakain kayo (Levitico 11:18).

    Pagka palalakihin ng Panginoon mong Dios ang iyong hangganan, gaya ng kaniyang ipinangako sa iyo, at iyong sasabihin, Ako’y kakain ng karne, sapagk’at nasa mong kumain ng karne; ay makakain ka ng karne, ayon sa buong nasa mo (Deuteronomio 12:20).

    Nguni’t hayag na sinasabi ng Espiritu, na sa mga huling panahon ang iba’y magsisitalikod sa pananamapalataya, at mangakikinig sa mga espiritung mapanghikayat at sa mga aral ng mga demonio, Na ipinagbabawal ang pagaasawa, at ipinaguutos na lumayo sa mga lamangkati, na nilalang ng Dios upang tanggapin na may pagpapasalamat ng mga nagsisisampalataya at nangakakaalam ng katotohanan (I Timothy 4:1 & 3).


    Ang Aral Ng Mga Taong Nagpapatawag Na Ama Ng Espiritu O Father: Ang Mga Namumunong Pang Relihiyon Na Mag Antanda sa Noo o (Sign of the Cruz).

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 5A)

    At ang ibang anghel, ang pangatlo, ay sumunod sa kanila, na nagsasabi ng malakas na tinig, Kung ang sinoman ay sumasamaba sa hayop at sa kaniyang larawan, at tumatanggap ng tanda sa kaniyang noo, o sa kaniyang kamay, Ay iinom din naman siya ng alak ng kagalitan ng Dios, na nahahandang walang halo sa inuman ng kaniyang kagalitan; at siya’y pahihirapan ng apoy at asupre sa harapan ng mga banal na anghel, at sa harapan ng Cordero: At ang usok ng hirap nila ay npaiilanglang magpakailan kalian man; at sila’y walang kapahingahan araw at gabi, silang mga nagsisisamaba sa hayop at sa kaniayang larawan, at sinomang tumatanggap ng tanda ng kaniyang panaglan (Apocalipsis 14:9-11).

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Manalangin Ng Paulit-ulit O (Rosary).

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 5A)

    At sa pananalangin ninyo ay huwag ninyong gamitin ang walang kabuluhang paulitulit, na gaya ng ginagawa ng mga Gentil: sapagka’t iniisip nilang dahil sa kanilang maraming kasasalita ay didinggin sila (Mateo 6:7).

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Magsabi ng Kanilang Kasalanan sa Taong Nagpapatawag na Ama ng Espiritu O Father (Panahon ng Pagkumpisal)

    Aking kinilala ang aking kasalanan sa iyo, at ang aking kasamaan ay hindi ko ikinubli: aking sinasabi, aking ipahahayag ang aking pagsalangsang sa Panginoon; at iyong ipinatawad ang kasamaan ng aking kasalanan (Psalms 32:5).

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Mayroong Purgatoryo Na Wala Sa Biblia (Panahon ng Pamisa).

    Hindi papatayin ang mga magulang dahil mga anak, ni ang mga anak ay papatayin dahil sa mga magulang; bawa’t tao’y papatayin dahil sa kaniyang sariling kasalanan (Deuteronomio 24:16).

    Sapagka’t nalalaman ng mga buhay na sila’y mangamamatay: nguni’t hindi nalalaman ng patay ang anomang bagay ni mayroon pa man silang kagantihan; sapagka’t ang alaala sa kanila ay nakalimutan. Maging ang kanilang pagibig, gaya ng kanilang pagtatanim at ng kanilang pananaghili ay nawala ngayon; na wala man silang anomang bahagi pa na magpakailan man sa anomang bagay na nagawa sa ilalim ng araw (Eclesiastes 9:5-6).

    Gayon ang tao ay nabubuwal at hindi na bumabangon: hanggang sa ang langit ay mawala, silay hindi magsisibangon, ni mangagigising man sa kanilang pagkakatulog (Job 14:12).

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Bautismuhan ang mga Batang Sangol.

    MGA GAWA Yaon ngang nagsitanggap ng kaniyang salita ay nangabautismuhan: at nangparagdag sa kanila nang araw na yaon ang may tatlong libong kaluluwa.

    APOCALIPSIS 7:3 Na nagsasabi. Huwag ninyong ipahamak ang lupa kahit ang dagat kahit ang mga punong kahoy hanggang sa aming matatakan sa kanilang mga noo ang mga alipin ng ating Dios.

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Pare-Pareho Ang Mga Relihiyon Na Naglilingkod Sa Dios Ay Maliligtas Na.

    MATEO 7:21 Hindi ang bawa’t nagsasabi sa akin, Panginoon, Panginoon, ay papasok sa kaharian ng langit; kundi ang gumaganap ng kalooban ng aking Ama na nasa langit. 22 Marami ang mangagsasabi sa akin sa araw na yaon, Panginoon, Panginoon, hindi baga nagsipanghula kami sa iyong pangalan, at sa panglan mo’y nangagpalayas kami ng mga demonio, at sa pangalan mo’y nagsigawa kami ng maraming gawang makapangyarihan? 23 At kung magkagayo’y ipahahayag ko sa kanila, Kailan ma’y hindi ko kayo nangakilala: magsilayo kayo sa akin, kayong mangagawa ng katampalasanan.

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Sumampalataya Ka Lang Ay Maliligtas Ka Na at Hindi Sapamamagitan ng Mabubuting Gawa.

    JUAN 5:44 Paanong kayo’y makapananampalataya, kayong nangagtatanggapan sa isa’t isa ng kaluwalhatian at hindi ninyo pinaghahanap ang kaluwalhatiang nangagaling sa tanging Dios?

    SANTIAGO 2:14 Anong pakikinabangin, mga kapatid ko, kung sinasabi ng sinoman na siya’y may pananampalataya, nguni’t walang mga gawa? 17 Gayon din naman ang pananampalataya na walang mga gawa, ay patay sa kaniyang sarili. 20 Datapuwa’t ibig mo bagang maalaman, Oh taong walang kabuluhuan, na ang pananampalataya na walang mga gawa ay baog? 22 Nakikita mo na ang pananampalataya ay gumagawang kalakip ng kaniyang mga gawa, at sa pamamagitan ng mga gawa ay naging sakdal ang pananampalataya; 24 Nakita ninyo na sa pamamagitan ng mga gawa’y inaaring ganap ang tao, at hindi sa pamamagitan ng pananampalataya.

    II TESALONICA 3:13 Nguni’t kayo, mga kapatid, huwag kayong mangapagod sa paggawa ng mabuti.

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao na May Trinity: Ang Dios Ama, Dios Anak at Dios Espiritu Santo.

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 2-4)

    DEUTERONOMIO 32:12 (Sinabi ni Moises) Ang Panginoon na magisa ang pumatnubay sa kaniya, At walang ibang dios na kasama siya.

    ISAIAS 46:9 Inyong alalahanin ang mga dating bagay ng una: sapagka’t ako’y Dios, at walang iba liban sa akin; ako’y Dios, at walang gaya ko;

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Tungkol sa Trinity Ay Isang Hiwaga At Hindi Maunawa.

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 5H)

    KAWIKAAN 3:13 Mapalad ang tao na nakasumpong ng karunungan, at ang tao na nagtatamo ng kaunawaan.

    MARK 4:11 (Sinabi ni Marcos) At sinabi niya sa kanila, Sa inyo ay ipinagkaloob ang makaalam ng hiwaga ng kaharian ng Dios: Datapuwa’t sa kanilang nangasa labas, ang lahat ng mga bagay ay ginagawa sa pamamagitan ng mga talinghaga.

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Si Cristo Ay Dios.

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 2-3)

    JUAN 20:17 Sinabi sa kaniya ni Jesus, Huwag mo akong hipuin; sapagka’t hindi pa ako nakakaakyat sa Ama, nguni’t pumaroon ka sa aking mga kapatid, at sabihin mo sa kanila, Aakyat ako sa aking Ama at inyong Ama, at aking Dios at inyong Dios.

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Si Cristo Ay Dios Dahil Anak Siya Ng Dios.

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 2-3)

    JUAN 13:16 Katotohanan, katotohanang sinasabi ko sa inyo, Ang alipin ay hindi dakila kay sa kaniyang panginoon; ni ang sinugo man ay hindi dakila kay sa nagsugo sa kaniya. 20 Katotohanan, katotohanang sinasabi ko sa inyo, Ang tumatanggap sa sinoman sinusugo ko ay ako ang tinatanggap, at ang tumatanggap sa akin ay tinatanggap ang nagsugo sa akin.

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Ang Espiritu Santo Ay Dios

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 2-4)

    ISAIAS 46:9 Inyong alalahanin ang mga dating bagay ng una: sapagka’t ako’y Dios, at walang iba liban sa akin; ako’y Dios, at walang gaya ko;

    JUAN 13:16 Katotohanan, katotohanang sinasabi ko sa inyo, Ang alipin ay hindi dakila kay sa kaniyang panginoon; ni ang sinugo man ay hindi dakila kay sa nagsugo sa kaniya.

    JUAN 15:26 Datapuwa’t ang Mangaaliw, sa makatuwid baga’y ang Espiritu Santo, na susuguin ng Ama sa aking pangalan, siya ang magtuturo sa inyo ng lahat ng mga bagay, at magpapalala ng lahat na sa inyo’y aking sinabi.

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Kausap Ng Dios Ang Dalawa Pang Dios Sa Genesis 2:22.

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 2-4)

    EXODO 20:3 Huwag kang magkakaroon ng ibang mga dios sa harap ko.

    GENESIS 2:24 Ano pa’t itinaboy ang lalake; at inilagay sa silanganan ng halamanan ng Eden ang mga Querubin at ang isang nagniningas na tabak na umiikot, upang ingatan ang daang patungo sa kahoy ng buhy.

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Si Cristo Ay Siya rin Ang Kahapon At Ngayon oo At Magpakailanman Kaya Siya’y Dios.

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 2-4)

    PSALMS 89:26 Siya’y dadaing sa akin, Ikaw ay Ama ko, Dios ko, at malaking bato ng aking kaligtasan.

    JUAN 17:2 Gaya ng ibinigay mo sa kaniya ang kapamahalaan sa lahat ng laman upang bigyan niya ng buhay na walang hanggan ang lahat ng ibinigay mo sa kaniya.

    Ang Aral Ng Mga Tao Na Walang Pagtitiwalag Sa Mga Kasapi Na Gumagawa Ng Labag Sa Utos Ng Dios.

    (Mababasa Ang Mga Pahayag Ng Dios Sa Pahina 5I)

    Dahil dito kayo’y mangagpangaralan, at mangagpatibayan sa isa’t isa sa inyo, gaya ng inyong ginagawa. Layuan ninyo ang bawat anyo ng masama (I Tesalonica 5:11 & 22).

    Datapuwa’t sa nangasa labas ay Dios ang humahatol. Alisin nga ninyo sa inyo ang masamang tao (I Corinto 5:13).

    Gayon ma’y hindi kayo umakyat, kundi nanghimagsik kayo laban sa utos ng Panginoon ninyong Dios (Deuteronomio 1:26)

    Sapagka’t yaong lahat na gumagawa ng gayong mga bagay, sa makatuwid baga’y yaong lahat ng gumagawa ng di matuwid ay kasuklamsuklam sa Panginoon mong Dios (Deuteronomio 25:16)

  74. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Hi Truth,

    Thank you for copying and pasting from INC writings. You are doing me a favor: it helps me see how INC reasons out. You have many points. I shall summarize them. Please check if my summary is correct:

    1. Do not worship, kneel, and offer to graven images.
    2. Do not call priests and bishops as Father.
    3. Do not eat bread with blood or wine (Communion)
    4. Do not offer incense.
    5. Do not forbid marriage.
    6. Do not make the sign of the cross.
    7. Do not pray repeating prayers (rosary).
    8. Purgatory is not in the Bible (Do not have masses for souls in Purgatory).
    9. Not all religions who serve God will be saved.
    10. Faith alone is not enough to be saved but through good works.
    11. There is no Trinity: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    12. Christ is not God.
    13. Christ is not God even if He is the Son of God.
    14. The Holy Spirit is not God.
    15. God did not speak to two other Gods in Genesis 2:22
    16. Christ is not God because he is yesterday, today, and forever.
    17. There is division in the members who do not obey the commandments of God.

    Please tell me at most three (3) points that we must discuss first. I cannot answer all of this in one sitting.

  75. Truth says:

    To Mr. Quirino M. Sugon Jr.

    At sa ganito’y nalalaman natin na siya’y ating nakikilala, kung tinutupad natin ang kaniyang mga utos (I Juan 2:3). Sapagka’t ito ang pagibig sa Dios, na ating tuparin ang kaniyang mga utos: at ang kaniyang mga utos ay hindi mabibigat (I Juan 5:3).

    At upang inyong malagyan ng pagkakaiba ang banal at ang karaniwan, at ang karumaldumal at ang malinis (Levitico 10:10)

    Kayo’y magsipasok sa makipot na pintuan: sapagka’t maluwang ang pintuan, at malapad ang daang patungo sa pagkapahamak, at marami ang doo’y nagsisipasok. Sapagka’t makipot ang pintuan, at makitid ang daang patungo sa buhay, at kakaunti ang nangakakasumpong noon (Mateo 7:13-14).

    At hindi lamang sa inyo ginagawa ko ang tipang ito at ang sumpang ito; Kundi doon sa nakatayo ritong kasama natin sa araw na ito sa harap ng Panginoon nating Dios, at gayon din sa hindi natin kasama sa araw na ito (Deuteronomio 29:14-15):

  76. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Truth,

    Please explain what you wrote in English. In this way, I will know if you really understand what you are copying and pasting from INC writings, so that we can have a fruitful conversation. If you write in Tagalog, I will delete it. Remember that people from other countries are reading my blog. Write in English so that they can follow your arguments.

    I asked you to choose the three major points that you would like me to answer first. But instead, you gave me a series of verses. And also, you didn’t refute my arguments in your other comments. Instead, you continued to blindly copy and paste. I don’t think this dialogue is going anywhere. I am sorry, but until you become reasonable, you cannot anymore post your comment in the name of “Truth”.

  77. Truth says:

    To Mr. Quirino M. Sugon Jr

    All verses are written within your knowledge and still you don’t understand. This is why the true teachings must be heard, you must be heard the true teachings which God wants you to know.

    At ang mga ito’y yaong nangasa tabi ng daan, na doon nahahasik ang salita; at nang kanilang mapakinggan, pagdaka’y pinaroroonan ni Satanas, at inaalis ang salita na inihasik sa kanila. At gayon din naman itong mga nahasik sa batuhan, na pagkarinig nila ng salita, pagdaka’y nagsisitanggap na may galak; At hindi nangaguugat sa kanilang sarili, kundi sangdaling tumatagal; kaya’t pagkakaroon ng kapighatian o ng mga paguusig dahil sa salita, pagdaka’y nangatisod sila. At ang mga pagsusumakit na ukol sa sanglibutan, at ang daya ng mga kayamanan, at ang mga pita sa ibang mga bagay na nagisipasok, ang nagsisiinis sa salita, at ito’y nagiging walang bunga (Mateo 4:15-17 & 19).

    Don’t be blind forever search and you will find. You must open your heart and empty your knowledge. Let the words of God sink into you deeply, ask more questions to those bless by God with proof in the bible to teach his kindom. And you will take rest in the true teaching that will lead you to salvation.

    Datapuwa’t hindi kayo nagsisampalataya, sapagka’t hindi kayo sa aking mga tupa (Juan 10:26). Sapagka’t ang kabayaran ng kasalanan ay kamatayan; datapuwa’t ang kaloob na walang bayad ng Dios ay buhay na walang hanggan kay Cristo Jesus na Panginoon natin (Roma 6:23).

    Don’t be Hypocrisy.

    The Judgment Day is coming and still your name is not written in the book of life. Don’t remain on the mojority false teachings.

    At ang kamatayan at ang Hades ay ibinulid sa dagatdagatang apoy. Ito ang ikalawang kamatayan, sa makatuwid ay ang dagatdagatang apoy. At ang Diablo na dumaya sa kanila ay ibinulid sa dagatdagatang apoy at asupre, na kinaroronan din naman ng hayop at ng bulaang propeta; at sila’y pahihirapan araw at gabi magpakailan kailan man. At lalabas upang dumaya sa mga bansa na nasa apat na sulok ng lupa, sa Gog at sa Magog, upang tipunin sila sa pagbabaka: na ang bilang nila ay gaya ng buhangin sa dagat. At kung ang sinoman ay hindi nasumpungang nakasulat sa aklat ng buhay, ay ibinulid sa dagatdagatang apoy (Apocalipsis 20:14,10,8 & 15).

  78. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Truth,

    Thank you for writing in English. But I won’t make a reply until you write everything in English, because many readers of this blog cannot understand Tagalog. Please be considerate. If you like, you can copy and paste from the online New American Bible: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.shtml. This is the Bible that I use whenever I quote passages. If you insist in using Tagalog Bible, I am sorry, but this blog is not for you. Try Cenon Bibe’s Catholic Apologetics blog, “Tumbukin Natin”: http://tumbukin-natin.blogspot.com/.

    Also, please do not argue several points at the same time. Defend only one point at a time, so that we can have a fruitful discussion (the same is true if you make a comment in Cenon Bibe’s blog or in other blogs in general). If you make several unrelated points in a single comment, I shall retain the first point and its accompanying verses; I shall delete the rest.

    I am hoping for your kind consideration.

    If you like, You may now write your first point and your accompanying scriptural proofs.

  79. Truth says:

    To Mr. Quirino M. Sugon Jr.

    Your stating your own opinion which I’m not. All written that I presented to you are the words of God. Why I stated the words of God against the knowledge of men or your own opinion? because, this is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth (I Timothy 2:3-4).

    And The last word, when all is heard: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is man’s all; (Eclesiastes 12:13)

    You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; (Exodo 40:4-5)

    But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Apocalipsis 21:8)

    And God want’s men to choose life and He said I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live (Deuteronomio 30:19)

    But now if you still remain hard headed and chooses the teachings of men or the teaching of demon, who is in the left side of God, you will know that you choose curse and death in witness today.

    Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Mateo 25:32)

  80. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Truth,

    Thank you for defending only one point, which is Exodus 40:4-5. What this passage forbids is the making of images that are not prescribed by God, and to bow down before them as if they are god. God does not forbid the making of images in general. In fact, He prescribed certain images to be made such as Bronze Serpent which Christ later made as a symbol of His crucifixion:

    “And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.”” (Num 21: 8)

    “And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” (Jn 3:14)

    As long as the images leads men to God, the images are ok. If you like, try to imagine in your mind Christ hanging on the cross and kneel before him. Since trying to imagine is a tiring process, it is better to use a visual aid–a picture of Christ on the cross or a crucifix. This is why Catholics do not kneel before a crucifix to worship it, but they kneel before the Lord Jesus Christ whom the crucifix represents.

    Not all kneeling is worship. Kneeling can be a posture of respect or of pleading. For example, subjects kneel before their king or hostages kneel before their captors. This is why we can kneel before the picture of Mary and of the Saints not to worship their images, but to ask the persons represented by the images to pray for us.

    I am sure you keep pictures of your wife or girlfriend. When you kiss these pictures and say “I love you”, I am sure that your wife or girlfriend would love it when they see you doing it, because it means you love them and not the pictures that represent them.

  81. Truth says:

    To Quirino M. Sugon Jr.

    You still don’t understand and I understand that because Christ was said

    But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep (John 10:26).

    ===GOD AND HIS TRUE PROPHETS FORBIDDEN NOT TO CARVED IDOLS, NOT TO BOW DOWN AND NOT TO WORSHIPPED THEM====

    You shall not carve idols in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth(Exodo 20:4) (Ibid).
    You shall not bow down before them or worship them (Exodo 20:5) (Ibid).
    Do not make anything to rank with me; neither gods of silver nor gods of gold (Exodo 20:23)(Ibid).
    You shall not molest or oppress an alien (Exodo 22:20)(Ibid).
    You shall not bow down in worship before their gods, nor shall you make anything like them (Exodo 23:24) (Ibid).
    This people has indeed committed a grave sin in making a god of gold for themselves (Exodo 32:31) (Ibid).
    You shall not make for yourselves molten gods (Exodo 34:17).
    Do not turn aside to idols, nor make molten gods for yourselves (Levitico 19:4) (Ibid).
    Do not make false gods, You shall not erect an idol or a sacred pillar,nor shall you set up a stone figure for worship in your land (Levitico 26:1) (Ibid).
    Overthrow your incense stands, and cast your corpses on those of your idols (Levitico 26:30) (Ibid).
    Destroy all their stone figures and molten images (Numbers 33:52) (Ibid).
    Not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or a woman (Deuteronomio 4:16).
    You fashion for yourselves against his command an idol in any form whatsoever (Deuteronomio 4:23)(Ibid).
    Should you then degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol in any form and by this evil done in his sight provoke the LORD (Deuteronomio 4:25)(Ibid).
    You shall not have other gods besides me (Deuteronomio 5:7).
    You shall not follow other gods, such as those of the surrounding nations (Deuteronomio 6:14).
    The images of their gods you shall destroy by fire (Deuteronomio 7:25) (Ibid).
    Every command that I enjoin on you, you shall be careful to observe (Deuteronomio 13:1) (Ibid).
    Cursed be the man who makes a carved or molten idol–an abomination to the LORD (Deuteronomio 27:15) (Ibid).
    They followed the other gods of the various nations around them, and by their worship of these gods provoked the LORD (Judges 2:14) (Ibid).
    For a sin like divination is rebellion, and presumption is the crime of idolatry (I Samuel 15:23) (Ibid).
    They worshiped their idols and were ensnared by them (Psalm 106:36) (Ibid).
    Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands (Psalms 115:4).
    They have mouths but do not speak, eyes but do not see (Psalms 115:5).
    They have ears but do not hear, noses but do not smell (Psalms 115:6).
    They have hands but do not feel, feet but do not walk, and no sound rises from their throats (Psalms 115:7).
    Their makers shall be like them, all who trust in them (Psalms 115:8).
    Then they hire a goldsmith to make it into a god before which they fall down in worship (Isaias 46:6) (Ibid).
    They lift it to their shoulders to carry; when they set it in place again, it stays, and does not move from the spot. Although they cry out to it, it cannot answer; it delivers no one from distress (Isaias 46:7).
    Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field are they, they cannot speak; They must be carried about, for they cannot walk. Fear them not, they can do no harm, neither is it in their power to do good (Jeremiah 10:5).
    One and all they are dumb and senseless, these idols they teach about are wooden (Jeremiah 10:8).
    Of what avail is the carved image, that its maker should carve it? Or the molten image and lying oracle, that its very maker should trust in it, and make dumb idols? (Habakuk 2:18).
    Children, be on your guard against idols (I John 5:21).

    ===JESUS CHRIST AND HIS TRUE DISCIPLES FORBIDDEN NOT TO CARVED IDOLS, NOT TO BOW DOWN AND NOT TO WORSHIPED THEM====

    Men, why are you doing this? We are of the same nature as you, human beings. We proclaim to you good news that you should turn from these idols to the living God, ‘who made heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them (Acts 14:15).

    We ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination (Acts 17:29) (Ibid).

    We sent them our decision that they abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage (Acts 21:25) (Ibid).

    While claiming to be wise, they became fools. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes (Romans 1:22-23).

    They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator (Romans 1:25) (Ibid).

    Now the works of the flesh are obvious idolatry, I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21) (Ibid).

    Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers will inherit the kingdom of God (I Corinthians 6:9-10) (Ibid).

    What agreement has the temple of God with idols? (2 Corinthians 6:16) (Ibid).

    For the time that has passed is sufficient for doing what the Gentiles like to do: living in debauchery, evil desires, drunkenness, orgies, carousing, and wanton idolatry (I Peter 4:3).

    Anyone who worships the beast or its image, or accepts its mark on forehead or hand (Sign of the Cruz), will also drink the wine of God’s fury, poured full strength into the cup of his wrath, and will be tormented in burning sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb (Revelation 14:9-10).

    But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death (Revelation 21:8).

    NOW!!!

    Therefore, do not continue in ignorance, but try to understand what is the will of the Lord (Efeso 5:17).

    Pray deeply that you will get out from the cursed of devil who blind you not to understand the truth and will lead you to the lake of fire.

    The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Israel and also our God who is the creator of the heaven and earth will give you chance,

    And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free (John 8:32).

    NOTED:
    Make an exclusive blog title “WHO IS THE REAL AND TRUE FATHER IN SPIRIT”
    because you called the Catholic Church authority FATHER – it means the Father of the spirit (as written and teached to the elementary, secondary and college: the fundamentals beliefs of the Catholic Church)

    AND

    That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation resulting in knowledge of him (Ephesian 1:17).

  82. checkmatepawn2 says:

    Is Iglesia ni Cristo is church of christ?

    The answer is simple:

    No. SURE.

    Evidence number 1:

    “The Church is the only one that will be saved, it is in Acts 20:28 Stupid Lamsa version” as verbalized by a common trycledriver who is a club member of Iglesia ni Cristo.

    +Church. Pertaining to a cult called Iglesia ni cristo-pronounced as eygleysya ni crisstoww.

    Evidence number 2:

    Catholic guy asked: “Is the name of your Former Cult President Felix Manalo is in the bible?”

    Official answer of the “prestigious” INC: “It is only a -prophecy, did you see the name of our LORD (baron of England) Jesus Christ in the Old Testament?

    Summary.

    The evidence is contradictory.

    One day. Felix Manalo woke up in a boring town. Then not SURE what he wanted to do in life or what religion he wanted to settle in. He decided to make his own buisness, in religion.

    This is very interesting, because an important person who will supposedly lead salvation to its club members do not have intuition to be CERTAIN.

    And in the end, because of the struggle to jungle verses of the bible and history, INC orporated end up with one dumb decision.

    Proclaiming Felix Manalo as a Prophecy. BIG mistake.

    Because they are supposed to be guaranteed to be in heaven. Now they only have a fairy tale story about World War II which of course a story that is not entirely in the bible and not chronologically CERTAIN.

    BIG mistake.

    Because ALL of their teachings should be in the bible. which of course they are not.

    So does it mean a person Felix Manalo- a prophecy, not certain, sort of, pioneering a fun club, Iglesia ni Cristo. And joining here is a CERTAIN salvation because their business’ sign is the same in acts 20:28 stupid lamsa version is right, logically and common sense?

    No.

  83. checkmatepawn2 says:

    You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; (Exodo 40:4-5)

    The verse CLEARLY STATE.

    anything in the

    SKY

    above or in the

    EARTH

    below or in the

    WATERS

    beneath.

    since when, ALL of our saints, learn to fly, dwell and surived in waters and below the ground?

    these are acient animal gods.

  84. Truth says:

    Posted by checkmatepawn2 on December 27, 2009 at 2:32 am

    these are acient animal gods.

    To CHECKMATEPAWN2

    Your sould is already checkmate by the demons and became his pawn. The ancient animal god is make and evolution to be now your animal present god which now you carved, bow and worshiped.

    === GOD AND THE TRUE PROPHETS TEACHED CLEARLY AND SAID====
    Do not make false gods, You shall not erect an idol or a sacred pillar,nor shall you set up a stone figure for worship in your land (Levitico 26:1) (Ibid).

    They worshiped their idols and were ensnared by them (Psalm 106:36) (Ibid).
    Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands (Psalms 115:4).
    They have mouths but do not speak, eyes but do not see (Psalms 115:5).
    They have ears but do not hear, noses but do not smell (Psalms 115:6).
    They have hands but do not feel, feet but do not walk, and no sound rises from their throats (Psalms 115:7).
    THIER MAKERS SHALL BE LIKE THEM, ALL WHO TRUST IN THEM (Psalms 115:8).

    NOW!!! No wonder checkmatepawn2 you want to be answered your present animal god as you said above. And your number proves in (Revelation 14:8 & 14).

    ===CHRIST AND HIS TRUE APOSTLE TEACHED CLEARLY AND SAID====
    Anyone who worships the beast or its image, or accepts its mark on forehead or hand (Sign of the Cruz), will also drink the wine of God’s fury, poured full strength into the cup of his wrath, and will be tormented in burning sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb (Revelation 14:9-10).

    They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator (Romans 1:25) (Ibid).

    6======THE CHURCH AUTHORITY WAS CALLED FATHER – it means the Father of the spirit===6=== (as written and teached to the elementary, secondary and college: the fundamentals beliefs of the demons======6 (I Timothy 4:1). You cannot lie about this perhaps the world already knows as follows

    1. They carved, bow, and worship their present animal gods.
    2. Their father in spirit is the authority of thier church.
    3. The number of Beast. 666. YOUR DOOMED.

    VICARIVS – 113
    FILII – 52
    DEI – 501
    TOTAL = 666

  85. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Truth,

    It is really difficult to dialogue with you because you do not analyze my arguments and tell me where I said wrong. If one verse is enough to support your claim, you do not need to cite additional verses. For each verse that you quote, you must give an explanatory sentence how it relates to the argument. Be precise in your arguments. Copying and pasting verses without explanation is a sign of a weak argument. A shotgun is for those who cannot aim properly. The discussion on the worship of idols is finished. It is going nowhere.

    You are now making a new thread on the 666.

    Vicarius Filii Dei (Vicar of the Son of God) is not a title of the Pope. The correct title is “Vicar of Christ.” Can you show me a photograph showing that title you claimed in the Pope’s official documents or coat of arms? Try the Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarius_Filii_Dei.

    If you believe in numerology, you can check this website: http://catholicfaithdefender.wordpress.com/category/666/. There you will see the following computations:

    Felix = 605 in Greek and 61 in Latin. 605 + 61 = 666.

    Ysagun = 660 in Greek and 6 in Latin. 660 + 6 = 666.

    Manalo = 192 in Greek and 1050 in Latin. The foundation year of INC is 1914. Therefore,

    1914 – (6 + 192 + 1050) = 666.

  86. truth says:

    To Quirino M. Sugon Jr.

    Yes you really had difficulties to dialog with me because you’ve blind with the teaching of demons and you are wrong to say that citing additional verses is a sign of weak argument, a shot gun, the discussion of worshiping idols is finished and it is going nowhere. Your words and action is really dictates by the evil spirit.

    One proves is that you delete some of my message post to justify your false faith. And since then you did not understand one verse, it must cited with the other verses to make you understand but it didn’t.

    I understand you perhaps I am same your faith since my birth until 2 years after my university days. I’ve been in different religion since then and I found out that there is none at all a true religion.

    Until such time, God give his glory and love to me because He is God. Now I enjoy and have peach in mind and heart knowing the truth. He give me life at all and hold HIS promise to live his holy city if I still obey his commandments and remain on his flock.

    I believe and live the true faith that from the ancient time until now, only one nation of God prevail. The ancient Israel and the True Church of Christ. Both Christ and His Church existence has the prophecy in the Bible. He is the head of the church which is His body (Colosian 1:18) (Ibid). And He is the savior of his body (Ephesians 5:23 & 25) (Ibid).

    You visit my blog below with your comrades angel and I will sure to you not delete your some of your post unlike what you’ve did to some of my post here in your blog.

    http://truth-thetruefaithvsthefalsefaith.blogspot.com/?psinvite=ALRopfVTjJ1QcOBaKHlNJ2evVbp0hU-Q7vu-bLUPrC8WWkIYShsVm_0zdfKBAlHJWg9PBIXV-f766yMP6kgfsqj51UeXwbh7uQ

  87. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Truth,

    I deleted some of your comments, because they are repeated in your other comments. I have visited your blog. I see that you have just started writing on it this December. I wish you well. May God bless you in your endeavor.

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

  88. checkmatepawn2 says:

    To Truth who think he/she is right:

    When you present an evidence which in this case a verse from the bible it MUST support the other evidence you will present.

    WHY.

    Because this is the bible. It is the TRUTH, like your name but unfortunely not the truth that the bible truly serve

    Evidence number 1.

    You AGREED that the first verse you use is acient animal God-S. meaning. You know from the very start that it isn’t Equal or the same with the Saints.

    Evidence number 2.

    GODS. we only have the trinity. 3 persona one GOD

    Do not make false gods. (Levitico 26:1)

    Did the catholic Church declare our SAINTS as GOD(S)? Uh…. No. right(truth) verse, wrong(stupid) interpretation by INC orporated.

    Evidence number 3

    Choped evidence. you use a verse as a definition for a saint.

    They worshiped their idols and were ensnared by them (Psalm 106:36) (Ibid).

    enough complete verse: (Psalm 106:34-38)

    34They did not destroy the peoples as the Lord had commanded them,
    35but they mingled with the nations and adopted their customs.
    36They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them.
    37They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons.
    38They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.

    =we never have this intricate tradition of sacrificing someone to demons… and in a specific place called canaan. maybe your cult have already sacrificed to demons, erduardo manalo, as his little female dog.

    Evidence number 4

    You use another verse. which is NOT an acient animanl Gods. Meaning. the first verse is completly diferrent from these one. Wrong combination and ONE objective is a lie or a stupid attack.

    Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands (Psalms 115:4).
    They have mouths but do not speak, eyes but do not see (Psalms 115:5).
    They have ears but do not hear, noses but do not smell (Psalms 115:6).
    They have hands but do not feel, feet but do not walk, and no sound rises from their throats (Psalms 115:7).
    THIER MAKERS SHALL BE LIKE THEM, ALL WHO TRUST IN THEM (Psalms 115:8).

    these are the first three verses of Psalams 115

    1 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us,
    but unto thy name give glory,
    for thy mercy, and for thy truth’s sake.

    2 Wherefore should the heathen say,
    Where is now their God?

    3 But our God is in the heavens:
    he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

    This CLEARLY state that the verse is in third party form…. LIKE. “Oh look at those INC orporated THEY declare a lie that all their doctrines are all in the bible.”

    When you use THEIR GOD. THEY have mouth-s eye-s nose-s, THOSE Persons involved in these verses you use, had already declares someone or SOMETHING in a form of a man is GODS alone. Again. GODS. supported by mouths-Psalms 115:5. noses-Psalms 115:6

    These are…. MAYBE acient roman gods. since they are popular in making Gods in Human form like Jupiter.

  89. checkmatepawn2 says:

    To truth:

    Yup. checkmate.

    you don’t have any comment in my evidence of the authenticity of your church.

    which means I am right.

    well, you can use the the WW II fairy tale story but, that is unaccounted in anyway or means because you have a business theme about ALL must be in the BIBLE.

  90. checkmatepawn2 says:

    To truh:

    what is these? Scary,,,, can you predict the numbers that will be drawn in lottery? If you can, I will join your INC Club.

    1. They carved, bow, and worship their present animal gods.
    2. Their father in spirit is the authority of thier church.
    3. The number of Beast. 666. YOUR DOOMED.

    VICARIVS – 113
    FILII – 52
    DEI – 501
    TOTAL = 666

  91. Truth says:

    Posted by checkmatepawn2 on December 30, 2009 at 1:42 am

    Evidence number 1.

    You AGREED that the first verse you use is acient animal God-S. meaning. You know from the very start that it isn’t Equal or the same with the Saints.

    TO CHECKMATEPWAN2:

    ANSWER: THE ANCIENT ANIMAL gods you mention has now evolved to your present animal gods.

    Whereas evidence 1, Not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or a woman (Deuteronomio 4:16).

    Evidence number 2.

    GODS. we only have the trinity. 3 persona one GOD
    Do not make false gods. (Levitico 26:1)
    Did the catholic Church declare our SAINTS as GOD(S)? Uh…. No. right(truth) verse, wrong(stupid) interpretation by INC orporated.

    TO CHECKMATEPWAN2:

    ANSWER:
    YOUR TRULY TRINITY IS ABSOLUTELY A DEMONIC INSTRUCTION. WHY?
    Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences (1 Timothy 4:1-2).

    1. God teach clearly and said that Christ is not God, For I am God and not man (Hosea 11:9)
    2. Jesus Christ teached clearly and said that he is not God, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. (John 20:17)(Ibid). But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God (John 8:40) (Ibid).
    3. The Holy Spirit is not God as Jesus Christ teached clearly and said, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name (John 14:26)(Ibid). No slave is greater than his master nor any messenger greater than the one who sent him (John 13:16)(Ibid).

    Evidence number 3

    Choped evidence. you use a verse as a definition for a saint.

    They worshiped their idols and were ensnared by them (Psalm 106:36) (Ibid).

    enough complete verse: (Psalm 106:34-38)

    34They did not destroy the peoples as the Lord had commanded them,
    35but they mingled with the nations and adopted their customs.
    36They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them.
    37They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons.
    38They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.

    =we never have this intricate tradition of sacrificing someone to demons… and in a specific place called canaan. maybe your cult have already sacrificed to demons, erduardo manalo, as his little female dog.

    TO CHECKMATEPWAN2:

    ANSWER:
    NO DOUBT THAT YOUR LIKE YOUR MOLTEN IMAGES. Their makers shall be like them, all who trust in them (Psalms 115:8).

    6======THE CHURCH AUTHORITY IS A MAN AND WAS CALLED FATHER – it means the Father of the spirit===6=== (as written and teached to the elementary, secondary and college: the fundamentals beliefs of the demons======6 (I Timothy 4:1).

    YOU WILL NEVER GET UNDERSTAND TO SPEAK THE TRUTH AND SEE THE TRUTH as said, They have mouths but do not speak, eyes but do not see (Psalms 115:5).

    YOUR FATHER IN SPIRIT IS A MAN AN AUTHORITY OF YOUR CHURCH, ONE REASON YOU ARE BLIND. THE TRUE FATHER IN SPIRIT IS GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, JACOB, ISRAEL AND OUR GOD.

    Evidence number 4

    You use another verse. which is NOT an acient animanl Gods. Meaning. the first verse is completly diferrent from these one. Wrong combination and ONE objective is a lie or a stupid attack.

    Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands (Psalms 115:4).
    They have mouths but do not speak, eyes but do not see (Psalms 115:5).
    They have ears but do not hear, noses but do not smell (Psalms 115:6).
    They have hands but do not feel, feet but do not walk, and no sound rises from their throats (Psalms 115:7).
    THIER MAKERS SHALL BE LIKE THEM, ALL WHO TRUST IN THEM (Psalms 115:8).

    these are the first three verses of Psalams 115

    1 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us,
    but unto thy name give glory,
    for thy mercy, and for thy truth’s sake.

    2 Wherefore should the heathen say,
    Where is now their God?

    3 But our God is in the heavens:
    he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

    This CLEARLY state that the verse is in third party form…. LIKE. “Oh look at those INC orporated THEY declare a lie that all their doctrines are all in the bible.”

    When you use THEIR GOD. THEY have mouth-s eye-s nose-s, THOSE Persons involved in these verses you use, had already declares someone or SOMETHING in a form of a man is GODS alone. Again. GODS. supported by mouths-Psalms 115:5. noses-Psalms 115:6

    These are…. MAYBE acient roman gods. since they are popular in making Gods in Human form like Jupiter.

    TO CHECKMATEPWAN2:

    ANSWER: WHATEVER YOU SAY IT WAS INFLUENCE BY THE EVIL SPIRIT. AS EVIDENCE THAT YOU DISHONOR OUR GOD. YOUR ACTION WAS A BLASPHEMY.

    1. YOU CARVED MOLTEN IMAGES, WORSHIP AND BOW TO THEM.

    Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? (1 Corinthians 1:20) (Ibid).

  92. True says:

    Posted by checkmatepawn2 on December 30, 2009 at 1:50 am

    what is these? Scary,,,, can you predict the numbers that will be drawn in lottery? If you can, I will join your INC Club.

    TO CHECKMATEPAWN2

    ANSWER: Anyone who worships the beast or its image, or accepts its mark on forehead or hand (Sign of the Cruz), will also drink the wine of God’s fury, poured full strength into the cup of his wrath, and will be tormented in burning sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb (Revelation 14:9-10).

    God is Spirit (John 4:24) (Ibid). Yet for us there is one God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6) (Ibid).

    YOUR FATHER IN SPIRIT IS A MAN AND HAS A TITLE VICARIVS FILLII DEI AS IT MEANS REPLACEMENT TO THE SON OF GOD OR KAHALILI NG ANAK NG DIOS. IT WAS A BLASPHEMY A DOCTRINES OF DEMONS TEACHED TO THE ELEMENTARY, SECONDARY AND COLLEGES. BUT THE FOLLOWER ARE BLIND TO THE TRUTH BECAUSE THEY ARE LIKE THE MOLTEN IMAGES THEY WORSHIP.

    V-I- C- A-R- I-V- S
    5-1-100-1-0-1-5-0 = 113
    F- I-L- I- I
    0-1-50-0-1 = 52
    D- E- I
    500 -0-1 =501
    TOTAL = 666

    I WAS PERFECT TO THIS EXAM WHEN I WAS IN MY ELEMENTARY, SECONDARY AND COLLEGE. I WAS SAME FAITH WITH YOU FOR THOSE YEARS BUT GOD SAVED ME BECAUSE HE HAS GREAT LOVE AND GLORY THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST.

    That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation resulting in knowledge of him (Ephesian 1:17).

  93. True says:

    Posted by checkmatepawn2 on December 30, 2009 at 1:48 am

    Yup. checkmate.

    you don’t have any comment in my evidence of the authenticity of your church.

    TO CHECKMATEPAWN2:

    ANSWER: For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body (Ephesians 5:23). He is the head of the body, the church (Colosians 1:18) (Ibid). abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace (Ephesians 2:15). I will build my church (Mathew 16:18).

    Christ is the head of his church which is his body, create one new person CHRIST IS THE HEAD AND HIS CHURCH IS HIS BODY. And Christ build his church and he is the savior of his body, CHURCH OF CHRIST.

    which means I am right.

    well, you can use the the WW II fairy tale story but, that is unaccounted in anyway or means because you have a business theme about ALL must be in the BIBLE.

    TO CHECKMATEPAWN2

    ANSWER:
    BOTH CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH HAS A PROPHECY OF GOD WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE.

    ONE OF THE PROPHECY ON CHRIST
    (MARY) She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins (Mathew 1:21).

    ONE OF THE PROPHECY OF HIS CHURCH
    I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd (John 10:16).

    ALL BOOKS IN THE BIBLE CAN JUSTIFY CLEALY THAT;

    1. JESUS CHRIST IS NOT GOD. GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, JACOB, ISRAEL AND OUR GOD made
    JESUS as follows: CHRIST, LORD, MESSIAH, LEADER and SAVIOR.

    Whereas one of the evidence, for certain that GOD has MADE him (CHRIST) both LORD
    and MESSIAH this Jesus whom you crucified (Acts 2:39) (Ibid).

    Whereas 2nd evidence, GOD EXALTED him (CHRIST) at his right hand AS LEADER and
    SAVIOR to grant Israel repentance and forgiveness of sins (Acts 5:31).

    Whereas 3rd evidence, GOD GREATLY EXALTED him (CHRIST) and BESTOWED on him
    the name that is above every name (Philippians 2:9) (Ibid).

    Whereas 4rth evidence, (CHRIST) He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in
    his mouth (1 Peter 2:22).

    For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God (John 3:34)(Ibid).

  94. tasyongtambay says:

    Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.

    It’s crystal clear, but the INC vehemently denies this fact.

  95. Wants to be Anonymous says:

    I wonder what Father Dan thought about the “Born Again” / “BA” “churches” that have sprouted like mushrooms over the past 20 years or so?

    BTW I think you can improve some of your arguments if you respond to the comments from other people, maybe have a new post after a few months (one year from the original post)?

  96. Wants to be Anonymous says:

    BTW regarding your statement about Christ’s command to ““make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Mt 28:19-20).” this is the same text many “protestant-like” churches use to sprout and mushroom… how can we weed them out?

  97. Humility says:

    I don’t believe the INC is the true church of Christ. Maybe they’ve gone nuts to think that they are. How foolish of them. Did they just bypassed God’s judgment to boast that it’s only within their so called church, that people will find salvation. God alone knows our fate. Come on’ where are their wisdom?

    The Church of Christ is not a collective gathering for worship, It is the collective term for people who believes that Christ is the way through salvation. If these INC members don’t have wisdom they wouldn’t really understand all these. Maybe they should pray to God for wisdom for a change.

    “For God so loved the world that he gave His only son, so that we shall not perish but have an everlasting life” John 3:16

  98. real truth says:

    oh poor catholics

    fooled by popes

    great inventors

    http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1334.cfm

  99. Kean says:

    oh poor iglesia ni cristo

    relying on lies, and has been teaching lies for some few years.

    poor inventors.

  100. NO WAY says:

    Read “Absurd claims of Iglesia ni Cristo” by Dr. Ruivivar.

    Matthew 7:15

    “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”

  101. Truth says:

    Too many Catholics today are considering Pope John Paul II as an “Anti-Pope”, having stolen the Vatican from the Beloved Historic True Church. From the vantage point of a knowledge of the occult, we demonstrate that the Traditional Church has been practicing “Good” witchcraft since the institution of the Mass. This article is excerpted from a speech at Friendship Baptist Church in Warwick, Rhode Island, Tuesday evening, November 9, 1999, entitled, “The False Prophet: He Has Been Selected”.

    http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1334.cfm

  102. Truth says:

    In the past several years, we have seen many anguished Roman Catholics email us, in response to our articles exposing the blatant Black Magick Satanism being propagated by Pope John Paul II and Pope Paul VI. These fine people have agreed with us that the Vatican is now controlled by the dark forces of Satan, but they insist that these Popes are the Anti-Popes of which they had been long warned, and that these two Popes have succeeded in wresting control of the Beloved Historic or Traditional True Roman Catholic Church. This view is becoming more and more common in Catholic circles every single day.

  103. Truth says:

    Therefore, if I wanted to violate God’s mandate the most severely, I would create a ceremony that sacrificed Jesus Christ again and again and again, that could be repeated daily all over the world, all the while deceiving the people into thinking they were glorifying Jesus Christ. Of course, I am speaking of the Mass , which does exactly this. The Mass, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, duplicates the sacrifice on the cross. Quoting directly, “The Mass is the same sacrifice as the sacrifice on the cross, because in the Mass the victim is the same, and the principal Priest is the same, Jesus Christ.” [My Catholic Faith, p. 286]
    Further, I would write the Mass in Latin, the language of the original Pagan Romans, in such way that would derive great witchcraft power. Doc Marquis, the former Black Magick Satanist, says unequivocally that the Mass, when it is said in Latin, contains great occult power! Black Magick witches in the early 6th Century discovered that the Roman Catholic Church had created a powerful White Magic ceremony in the Mass; therefore, they tried to capture this power for themselves by creating the infamous Black Mass, said backwards.

    http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1334.cfm

  104. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Truth,

    The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the holiest thing in the Catholic religion. So if you want to violate God’s mandate the most severely, you would mock it like witches who celebrate black masses by inverting the crucifix and saying the Latin backwards. Blasphemy is proportional to belief. The more you believe in the holiness of the mass, the more you mock and blaspheme it. So why do you think witches don’t mock an INC worship service?

    Latin is the original language of the of the Pagan Romans who became the first converts to Christianity. Didn’t Paul wrote a letter to the Romans in the New Testament? There were already Roman Christians a thousand years before INC, and the tombs of these martyred Christians are still present in Rome for you to see.

    If INC is indeed the Church of Christ, INC would follow Christ command to his apostles to repeat his words and actions in the Last Supper in memory of him. As St. Paul said:

    For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, 13 and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment 14 on himself. (1 Cor 11:23-29)

    What Paul is describing is nothing but the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Go to a mass, sit at the back pew, and you will see for yourself what Paul is describing in his Letter to the Corinthians.

  105. forwarded says:

    Im sorry but the alleged marks of the true church of Christ were lifted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, not from the bible. Wala rin biblical citations yung ibang explanation regarding some of these marks. In any case I’ll try to answer the critique using biblie verses. I’ll jump to the second mark since the INC passes the test of oneness. =)

    I do agree with the author that the church must be holy. However, the bible does not preach that to be holy, the church must have canonized numerous saints. The Catholic church’s concept of saints in fact goes against fundamental biblical doctrines.

    Saints are believed by the Catholics to be in HEAVEN, acting as INTERCESSORS with god for the living and for souls in PURGATORY (New Catholic Encyclopedia). The bible teaches, however, that with the exception of Christ who was resurrected by God and ascended to heaven, the holy who have passed away are NOT yet in heaven. Sa second coming of Christ palang sila makakarating sa langit as stated in I Thessalonians 4:16-17.

    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

    Regarding intercession, the bible teaches that there is but one mediator or intercessor, the lord Jesus Christ. Yung practice of praying to the saints and to Mary for intercession therefore is unscriptural.

    For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (I Timothy 2:5)

    The bible also mentions nothing about the purgatory, nor are there souls in such realm. The dead who will be condemned and even those who will be rewarded will both come from the grave, not from purgatory.

    Don’t be surprised at this: A time is coming when all who are dead and in their graves will hear his voice. Then they will come out of their graves. Those who did good will rise and have life forever, but those who did evil will rise to be judged guilty. (John. 5:28-29)

    Aminado naman yung author that the word Purgatory is not in the bible but logic suggests it should exist daw. Malinaw sa bible that we must not go beyond what is written. If we base our faith on logic or some obscure books eh di we’re setting aside the words of god na niyan…which shouldn’t be the case.

    Be sure to do everything I have commanded you. Do not add anything to it, and do not take anything away from it. Deuteronomy 12:32

    It is useless for you to worship me, when you teach rules made up by humans. Matthew. 15:9

    With respect to the third mark, where in the bible can we find that the true church must be catholic or universal? The word catholic is NOT even in the bible. If the true church must be universal or widespread, bakit konti lang ang makakahanap ng road that leads to true life?

    But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to true life. Only a few people find that road. (Matthew 7:14)

    The author claims that to be apostolic the INC must be founded by an apostle, in the same way as the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Apostles Peter and Paul. I’m sorry but it was Christ himself who founded the true church.

    And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal
    this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades
    will not overpower it. (Matthew 16:17-18)

    The author later on retracted his statement and claimed that it was Christ who founded the true Church on Peter, the rock. Is Peter really the rock upon which the Church was founded? The answer is no. The rock was Jesus Christ himself not Peter. In 1 Cor. 3:11, eto ang nakalagay.

    For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ,” (1 Cor. 3:11).

    The blog owner mentioned something about the translation of the word rock in Aramaic and Greek.
    Since wala akong alam sa languages na yun, nagresearch ako sa internet. Here is an excerpt that you may find interesting.

    When we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18 we see something that is not obvious in the English. “…you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church…” In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word “petros” is masculine; “petra” is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine “petros” but the feminine “petra.” Let me illustrate by using the words “actor” and “actress”: “You are the actor and with this actress I will make my movie.” Do see that the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter, but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?

    The feminine “petra” occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:

    • Matt. 16:18, “And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.”
    • Matt. 27:60, “and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.”
    • 1 Cor. 10:4, “and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ.”
    • 1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is “A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.”

    We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; “petras” in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn’t we?

    The Aramaic Kepha

    In contrast to this, in paragraph #2 at the beginning of this article, the Roman Catholic Church says that the rock cannot refer to Jesus, “but only Peter, as is so much more apparent in Aramaic in which the same word (Kipha) is used for ‘Peter’ and ‘rock’.” The problem is that the text is not in Aramaic, but Greek. Since we do not have the Aramaic text, it is not proper to refer to it as proof of the Roman Catholic position. We have to ask ourselves why the Roman Catholic Church would resort to using something that we don’t have: the aramaic text. Is it because their argument is not supported by the Greek and so they must infer something from a text we don’t possess?

    Furthermore, in John 1:42 it says, “He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, “You are Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas,” (which is translated Peter).” The word “Peter” here is petros, not petra. It is used to elucidate the Aramaic kephas which is not a name in Aramaic.

    “Except in Jn. 1:42, where it is used to elucidate Aramaic kēphás, Pétros is used in the NT only as a name for Simon Peter….The translation supports the view that Kēphás is not a proper name, since one does not usually translate proper names.”

  106. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Forwarded,

    Are there no saints in heaven? What do you say about Elijah? “As they walked on conversing, a flaming chariot and flaming horses came between them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind”(2 Kgs 2:11). How about the Good Thief who was crucified with Christ? “He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43).

    Should the dead only rise during the Last Judgment? Here is what happened when Jesus died: “The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.” (Lk 27:51-53)

    I have shown that the saints are alive in heaven. Why can’t you ask them to pray for you? “The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel” (Rev 8:4). Here is what St. James said in the Bible:

    “Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit.”

    There is only one mediator before God: Christ. But this does not mean that others cannot mediate between us and Christ. Since you ask your INC ministers to pray for you or pray over you, does this not violate the unique mediatorship of Christ?

    Nothing unclean will enter heaven (c.f. Rev. 21:27). “The just man falls seven times and rises again” (Prov 24:16). What will happen to us who are not just but tries our best to be just? Should we all go down to hell because of one single sin no matter how slight? Suppose we are a man of unclean lips like Isaiah? Of course we can, but we have to be purged first:

    “Then I said, “Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar.7 5 He touched my mouth with it. “See,” he said, “now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged.” (Is 24:16)

    Like Isaiah, we are cleansed first of our little sins in Purgatory so that we can go to heaven, for Christ said: “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” This means that there are some sins that will be forgiven only after our lifetime. And that is Purgatory. Those with unrepented mortal sins do not go to Purgatory: they go to Hell.

    If this explanation suffices for you, I shall respond to your comment on Peter the Rock. It is better to settle one issue first before proceeding to the next.

  107. forwarded says:

    You skirted my first question… Does the bible say that the measure of the church’s holiness is the number of saints canonized? I would appreciate if you can give an answer.

    I’m not saying that there are no saints in heaven. I’m saying, with all due respect, that saints defined in the Catholic sense (DEAD people acting as intercessors in heaven, canonized for living a righteous life) are not and could not have been in heaven.

    Those who DIED in Christ can only enter heaven when their body has been resurrected AND clothed with imperishable immortality. It is clear in I Thessalonians 4:16-17 and I Corinthians 15:50-54 that this resurrection AND subsequent transformation will only happen on Christ’s second coming. Until that day comes wala pang “namatay” na kay Cristo ang makakapasok sa pintuan ng langit.

    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (I Thessalononians 4:16-17)

    I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: Death has been swallowed up in victory. (I Corinthians 15:50-54)

    There was indeed a resurrection of saints in Matthews 27:51-53. However, the bible did not preach that the saints resurrected in Matthews were clothed with immortality. Neither were they with Christ when he ascended heaven. After the resurrection of Christ, the saints just came out of their graves and appeared to many. This resurrection of the saints in Matthew, therefore, cannot be used as basis to conclude that there are already resurrected saints in heaven even before the resurrection and transformation of the dead on the second coming of Christ.

    Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. (Matthews 27:51-53)

    Matthew 27:51-53 speak of the resurrection of the bodies of saints who had fallen asleep. I would just like to point out that these verses, which you cited yourself, conflict with the Catholic Church’s doctrine that saints go immediately to heaven upon death. The saints in Matthew were INITIALLY ASLEEP. They were then RAISED FROM THEIR GRAVES when Christ died in the cross.

    So what about Elijah? Elijah, first and foremost, did not die. He was ALIVE when he went up by a whirlwind into heaven as stated in 2 Kings 2:11. Elijah’s case therefore cannot be used justify the Catholic church’s position that the holy goes to heaven THE MOMENT GOD TAKES HIS LIFE.

    You mentioned about the good thief who died in the cross with Christ on Luke 23:43. The interpretation of Luke 23:43 depends entirely on punctuation, which rests wholly on human authority, the Greek manuscripts having no punctuation of any kind till the 9th century. You are probably aware of the fact that there are biblical translations which, for reasons that I will enumerate below, have rightly placed the comma after the word “today” and not after the word “you”.

    And Jesus said to him, ‘Truly, I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.

    So why do I say that the comma should be rightly placed after the word today?

    1. When Jesus was dying on the cross the crucified thief right next to Him said, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” The thief’s question looked forward to the SECOND COMING, not the moment of death.

    2. Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. He went to the tomb.

    3. Crucifixion is very cruel and it normally takes several days for a person to die. In John 19:31-33, it was clear that the thief did not die and went to paradise on that day, which is why the soldiers broke his legs.

    Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the FIRST MAN who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those OF THE OTHER. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

    4. Right after His resurrection on Sunday morning, Jesus said to Mary, “I have not yet ascended to My Father.” John 20:17. Thus on Sunday, Jesus had not yet ascended to Paradise.

    You must distinguish between the SUBJECT of one’s prayer and TO WHOM the prayer is directed. While INC Ministers indeed pray for us, take note that their prayers were directed or addressed to God and were ALWAYS ASKED IN THE NAME OF CHRIST OUR SAVIOR AND MEDIATOR. Catholics on the other hand direct their prayers to saints. They likewise have some prayers that do not invoke the name of Christ for mediatorship. I hope you can see the difference.

    According to one of your comments, the word purgatory is not in the bible but logic suggests that it should exist. Now you’re citing verses from the book of Isaiah to justify your church’s doctrine regarding purgatory. Is this another retraction or change of stance?

    Anyway, a careful reading would reveal that verses that you quoted does not refer to the purgatory. Notice that Isaiah, in these verses, saw the King, the LORD of hosts. Isaiah COULD NOT HAVE BEEN IN PURGATORY because he has seen God who according to the bible resides in heaven.

    Then I said, Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; YET MY EYES HAVE SEEN THE KING, THE LORD OF HOSTS! Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. See, he said, “now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged. (Is 24:16)

    I’m seeking for answers so sana naman bigyan mo ako ng explanations. I explained the verses that you cited so I’m hoping that you could do the same for me. BTW, I would like to apologize for below the belt remarks of some posters who CLAIM to be INC. Ignore niyo na lang po sila. =)

  108. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Forwarded,

    Thank you for being reasonable =) I shall ponder on your answer and give you my response in a week. I’ll just need to finish certain things.

  109. epsilonians says:

    End is near 15 years left already… Repent to Catholic and be save…
    because the truth is we are be save by one church…
    God cannot consider the simple prayers of anyone God Jesus Give a
    Priest for us to be Forgiven they have the power to forgive………
    if you refuse…………
    Prepare for the Devil and his Angels………………………………………..

  110. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Forwarded,

    Thank you for waiting. I shall respond first to your first question:

    1. Does the bible say that the measure of the church’s holiness is the number of saints canonized?

    If the Bible is silent on this matter, the Bible is also silent on the opposite proposition: The measure of the Church’s holiness is NOT the number of saints canonized. But one sign of a true religion is the mark of holiness, for Christ said, “Every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.”
    (Mt 7:16-20)

    Before we join a religion, we must make sure who the role models are: these are men who have truly lived the Gospel. Jesus said to the rich man, “sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have a treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Lk 18:22) Can one give an example of an INC who followed these words of Christ to heart? Is it Felix Manalo? Is it Erano Manalo? But Catholics can easily give an example: St. Francis of Assisi.

    The Church does not make saints by canonizing them. Rather, canonization is simply a recognition of their holiness. One does not turn a stone into bread by calling the stone as “bread”. Rather, one sees bread and calls it “bread”. If you consider Erano Manalo a holy man, I am sure that you would call him a saint, for that is what a saint is: a holy man. The word “saint” comes from the Latin word “sanctus” meaning “holy”.

    This is what the Catechism says:

    “By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors. “The saints have always been the source and origin of renewal in the most difficult moments in the Church’s history. Indeed “holiness is the hidden source and infallible measure of her apostolic activity and missionary zeal.” (Catechism Art. 828)

    Does the Church have the authority to declare some people as saints? St. Peter was given by Christ the power of binding and loosing: “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 18:18) Whatever Peter decides as binding on earth is immediately ratified in heaven. Catholics believe that Peter is the first Bishop of Rome and the first Pope. Pope Benedict XVI is the 265th successor of Peter as Bishop of Rome. The successors of the apostles are the bishops. When Judas died, the apostles, under the leadership of Peter, elected Matthias as the successor of Judas (c.f. Acts 1:15-26) , because apostleship is an office (c.f. Acts 1:20). So when Peter died, you can be assured that the successors of the apostles elected his replacement as Bishop of Rome. Peter’s power of binding and loosing is assumed by the Pope as the successor of Peter. So if the Pope pronounces a judgment that such and such people are saints, he invokes Peter’s power of the keys and his judgment is ratified in heaven.

    If this answer satisfies you, I shall proceed to your next question.

  111. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Epsilonian,

    I am sorry I deleted your last post. I have difficulty understanding your sentence constructions. I think dialogue is not possible if we can’t communicate our ideas well.

    Readers who may like to know Epsilonians ideas may visit his blog and comment there: http://epsilonians.wordpress.com/satan-can-be-forgiven/. Epsilonians believe on apocatastasis or the salvation of Satan and other evil spirits on the Last Day, a heresy of Origen which was condemned by the Council of Constantinople in 543 AD. See the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

  112. forwarded says:

    To put things in perspective, I’ll quote first what’s exactly on your blog post.

    “Is the Iglesia ni Cristo holy? The Catholic Church has produced numerous saints: beggars and kings, scholars and soldiers, old and young. Can the INC name at least one–only one–person in all its history whom they consider as a saint, a man or woman worthy of emulation, whose life reflected the radical message of the gospel–a Mother Teresa, an Ignatius of Loyola, a Francis of Assisi? The INC can give none.”

    ————————————

    Thank you for admitting that the BIBLE DOES NOT in any way state that the measure of the church’s holiness is the number of saints canonized. The first question, as far as I’m concerned, has already been answered. But before we move on to the next issue, I would just like to comment on your claim re the opposite proposition.

    In defense of the Catechism’s interpretation, you are claiming that the bible does not likewise say that the measure of the Church’s holiness is NOT the number of saints canonized. Is the bible really silent on this matter? Certainly not…

    According to the bible, the number of saints canonized or produced is NOT the measure or mark of Church holiness but rather the overall quality of the Church’s members (i.e. whether the members in general live righteous lives after being cleansed through baptism). In order for the Church to be deemed holy and blameless, EACH AND EVERY CHURCH MEMBER, NOT JUST A RECOGNIZED FEW, must adhere to the words of god and live lives worthy of salvation. This is precisely the reason why the members of the true Church were directed to expel the wicked among their ranks (1 Cor 5: 13). TO PRESERVE THE HOLINESS OF THE CHURCH (1 Cor 6:8), kailangan ITIWALAG yung mga kaanib na namumuhay ng labag sa kalooban ng Diyos.

    ** For God did not call US to be impure, but to live a holy life. (1 Thessalonians 4:7 NIV)

    ** Therefore, I urge you, BROTHERS, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God–this is your spiritual act of worship. DO NOT CONFORM ANY LONGER TO THE PATTERN OF THIS WORLD, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will. (Romans 12:1-2 NIV)

    ** Put on therefore, AS THE ELECT OF GOD, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are CALLED IN ONE BODY; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. (Colossians 3:12-17).

    ** What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. EXPEL THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOU. (1 Corinthians 5:13)

    ** Your boasting is not good. DON’T YOU KNOW THAT A LITTLE YEAST WORKS THROUGH THE WHOLE BATCH OF DOUGH? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of MALICE AND WICKEDNESS, but with bread without yeast, the bread of SINCERITY AND TRUTH. (1 Corinthians 5:13)

    I’m sure you’re aware na may pagpapayo and pagtitiwalag sa INC kapag ang isang miyembro ay di nagbabagong buhay. Ang alam ko meron din naman tinatawag na EXCOMMUNICATION sa Catholic Church but I’m not sure if Catholics still practice it now. Maybe you can make a blog entry on how the Catholic Church ensures that its members live their lives according to the teachings of the bible, on how your Church maintains its holiness in the eyes of God.

    ASSUMING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT na wala nga yung opposite proposition in the bible, why would your church adopt an interpretation of church holiness which is neither here nor there? According to the bible, we must not go beyond what is written (1 Cor 4:6). What’s written in the bible is SUFFICIENT OR ADEQUATE for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17). From the point of view of fairness, I think unacceptable rin yung pagcriticize sa isang religion using an interpretation na walang biblical basis.

    ** Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, SO THAT IN US YOU MAY LEARN NOT TO EXCEED WHAT IS WRITTEN, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. (1 Cor 4:6)

    ** ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY GOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; SO THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE ADEQUATE, EQUIPPED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK. (2 Tim 3:16-17)

    So who’s our role model? We are taught that if there is a person to EMULATE that would have to be CHRIST. In our worship services, we are always admonished to do what CHRIST did, that is, to put God’s will over one’s own. That is the reason why kahit mahirap ang buhay, maraming kapatid ang patuloy sa pag-samba. We always make sure na di magiging hadlang yung hanapbuhay, pag-aaral, etc sa aming paglilingkod.

    Just like the Catholic POPES, Brother Felix and brother Erano did not sell all they have and distribute the proceeds to the poor. But through their leadership the INC, engaged in various charitable works like medical missions, relief operations, housing programs, scholarships, etc. In any case, I personally don’t think that it’s mandatory for Christians to sell ALL their property to be worthy of the kingdom of Heaven. The message of Luke 18:22 is simple: TO HELP THE NEEDY. With all due respect, you don’t have to be a St. Francis to comply with this verse.

    Before we discuss the authority of the Pope to canonized saints, which according to Catholics were derived from Peter, I guess we should deal first with the issue of whether or not saints (like St. Francis) are ALREADY in heaven. You may now respond to my previous post if wala po kayong objections sa mga nabanggit ko dito. =)

  113. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Forwarded,

    I assume that when you ask for “Does the bible say that the measure of the church’s holiness is the number of saints canonized?” you asked for a word for word verse in the Bible and I said none. So if I also ask for a word for word verse in the Bible that states the opposite proposition, you also did not provide one. But if you mean a supporting verse, then I said that holiness is a mark of the true church because a tree is judged by its fruits.

    It is true that the Bible tells us to expel the wicked in our ranks. We can do our best to expel them, but it is only in heaven when God can finally fulfill this. In the Catholic Church, expulsion is only the last remedy in the form of excommunication or an anathema–to hand over someone to Satan (c.f. 1 Tim 1:20)–if the person does not listen to the Church who has the divine authority to judge. As Christ said, ” If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Mt 18:17-18). The purging of the evil in our midst begins first with the purging of sin in the person. That is why the Catholic church has a Sacrament of Confession, where the penitent tells his sins to the priest, and the priest absolves his sins, then gives him penance to do–to restore the goods that he stole, to leave his mistress, to be reconciled with his neighbor, or simply to pray one “Our Father” as Our Lord Jesus Christ taught us (Mt 6:9-13). When a person commits small sins, the person is still in the friendship of God. If he commits mortal sins (c.f. ten commandments), the person is cut off from God and his soul is deprived of sanctifying grace. His friendship with God can only be restored if he goes to Confession. But if he dies in a state of mortal sin without the benefit of confession or at least repentance, his soul goes to hell.

    The Church is the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God consists of saints and sinners–all of them equally called to be holy. You cannot fully uproot the sinners, because wheat and weeds are indistinguishable until harvest time, and in uprooting the weeds you may also uproot the wheat, for many of the Church’s greatest sinners also became its greatest saints–St. Paul was once Saul who persecuted Christians, St. Magdalen was a prostitute before he met Christ, St. Augustine believed in the Manichaean heresy before to his conversion. Did you not read Christ’s parable on the Kingdom of God?

    “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds 10 all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; 11 then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.”‘” (Mt 13:24-30)

    It is not clear from 1 Cor 4:6 that the phrase “what was written” refers to the whole Scriptures or only some letter of Paul. When St. Paul wrote to Timothy that “all Scripture is inspired by God,” Paul only refers to the Old Testament, because the Gospels were still being written during Paul’s time and all his letters were not yet written and compiled to become part of Scripture. If you believe that the books in the New Testament are inspired, that is because you unknowingly believed on the authority of the Catholic Church: Pope Damasus fixed the list of the Scriptures in the Council of Rome in 382. If you read or watched the Da Vinci code, the author refers to many books that are not in the Bible: the Gnostic Gospels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_Gospels). So who shall decide whether these Gospels are inspired or not? It cannot be INC because these Gospels were written before 1914. It can only be the the Catholic church.

    We Catholics have not only the Sacred Scriptures; we also have Sacred Tradition–the teachings and customs handed down by the Apostles which are not included in the Bible. Paul referred to this Tradition in several places, such as “For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” (1 Cor 11:23-24). Christ himself said that there are things that he wish to tell his apostles but only through the Holy Spirit, after Jesus is gone bodily form from their midst: “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.” (Jn 16:12-13).

    If you have no objections, I shall proceed to your next point whether the saints are in heaven.

  114. forwarded says:

    Sir, I have some questions re the parable of the weeds and catholic tradition. I’ll try to respond within the week. Medyo busy na ako ngayon kasi may pasok na. Thanks =)

  115. Truth says:

    Hi Mr. Quirino M. Sugon Jr.

    Do you know the meaning the word God?
    Do you know the meaning the word Christ?

    This might be lighten your evil deeds. Check this out

  116. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Truth,

    I can’t find your link.

  117. forwarded says:

    Does the bible say that the measure of the church’s holiness is the number of saints canonized?
    If the Bible is silent on this matter, the Bible is also silent on the opposite proposition: The measure of the Church’s holiness is NOT the number of saints canonized. But one sign of a true religion is the mark of holiness, for Christ said, “Every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:16-20)
    _____________________

    Sir Quirino, It doesn’t have to be verbatim. I’m asking for a biblical verse THAT SUPPORTS the Catechism’s claim that the number of the saints canonized is the measure of church holiness. I went back to the verses that you cited and I didn’t find anything in them that bolsters the Catechism’s contention. The verses support the proposition the church must be holy, which is not really the issue here.

    In law, the person alleging has the burden of proving the allegation. Since wala po kayong nahanap na supporting verse, you shifted the burden to me by arguing that the bible is silent as to the opposite proposition. Again, I’ll maintain that the bible is not silent. I invite your attention to I Thessalonians 4:7. We can conclude on the basis of the said verse na in order for the church to be holy and blameless, each and every member of the church, not just a select few (SAINTS), must live righteous lives. Notice that word used in the verse is “US” — NOT SOME OF US OR A FEW OF US. It is not enough that the Church has a few good men. Everyone must not fall below the standard of righteousness that bible has set.

    For God did not call “US” to be impure, but to live a “HOLY” life. (1 Thessalonians 4:7)

    You cited the parable of the weeds to justify the Catholic Church’s lenience on its members who do not live their lives according to the teachings of the bible. You interpreted the pronouncement NOT TO PULL THE WEEDS FROM THE FIELD UNTIL HARVEST TIME as a command not to expel the wicked among the members of the CHURCH. Jesus Christ himself explained the parable of the weeds in MATTHEW 13:36-43. According to Christ, the FIELD from which the weeds shouldn’t be pulled is the WORLD, NOT THE CHURCH. The pronouncement NOT TO PULL THE WEEDS FROM THE FIELD therefore cannot be interpreted AS A COMMAND TO TOLERATE UNREPENTANT CHURCH MEMBERS. Your interpretation clearly conflicts with Christ’s explanation.

    Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

    He answered, the one who sowed the good seed is the son of man. THE FIELD IS THE WORLD, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

    As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. (Matthew 13:36-43)

    According to you, it is not clear from 1 Corinthians 4:6 whether the phrase “what was written” refers to the whole Scriptures or to only some letter of Paul. You further argued that when St. Paul wrote to Timothy that “all Scripture is inspired by God,” Paul only refers to the Old Testament because the Gospels were still being written during Paul’s time and all his letters were not yet written and compiled to become part of Scripture.

    Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. (1 Corinthians 4:6)

    All scripture is inspired by god and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of god may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

    Prior to the existence of the Bible, God ALREADY KNOWS that the writings of Old and New Testament writers would eventually get compiled in one holy book. GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, APOSTLE Paul therefore could not have referred to some of his letters or to the Old Testament texts only in the said verses. By the way, IF, as you claimed, only Old Testament books are inspired, why does the Catholic Church cite verses from the New Testament? Medyo inconsistent po yata yung argument niyo sa actual Catholic practice.

    I understand that the Catholic Church relies on tradition. Ano po ba exactly yung tradition? Does tradition refer to extra-biblical texts promulgated by Catholic Bishops and Popes? What if tradition conflicts with the express mandate of bible? Which should be controlling? FOR PURPOSES OF OUR DISCUSSION, would you be willing to rely solely on the Bible? Pointless po kasi yung discussion if magkaiba yung ginagamit nating basis for our arguments.

    I think we may now proceed to the next point. We’ve spent too much time on the first question. =)

  118. forwarded says:

    Pakidelete po yung first comment. Medyo magulo po yung spacing. Thanks! =)

  119. Truth says:

    To: Mr. Quirino M. Sugon Jr.

    If you don’t understand a simple message as follows

    Do you know the meaning the word God?
    Do you know the meaning the word Christ?

    This might be lighten your evil deeds. Check this out

    It was very sure that you are spreading the devils teaching here. Read the Holy Bible and ask God for enlightenment. You are truly a hard headed man.

  120. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Truth,

    Sorry, I thought you have a link url to a website when you wrote “check this out.” My mistake.

  121. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Forwarded,

    I deleted your first comment as you requested.

  122. heroyui says:

    I certainly believe that INC is not the true church of Christ. But about the Catholic church please read this, http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html

  123. christia says:

    INC (ni Manalo a family corporation) will never understand your explanation Bro. Quirino because only their ministers can interpret the Bible. They will attack your personality because they have no basis for their faith. The Manalos have kept their doctrines which they could easily alter to favor their teachings and any of their instructions to their members. That is why they don’t have site that post their doctrines.

    Thank you for defending Christ and Our Catholic Faith!

    God Bless you!

  124. nelson says:

    The proof that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two in number and not one was clearly expressed by Christ Himself:

    “And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am no alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”(Jn. 8:16-18, NKJV)

    THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD

    In his prayer to the Father, Jesus Christ further revealed the identity of the only true God:
    “And eternal life means to know you, the only true God.” (Jn. 17:3, Today’s English Version)

    The context reveals that the only true God referred to by the second personal pronoun “you” is the Father:

    “After Jesus finished saying this, he looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come” (Jn 17:1, Ibid)

    The apostles also recognized the Father as the only true God:

    “Yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the creator of all things and for whom we live.”
    (I Cor. 8:6, Ibid)
    This was also the teaching of the old Testament prophets such as Malachi:
    Don’t we all have the same father? Didn’t the same God create us all? (Mal. 2:10, Ibid.)

    In other words, the Bible teaches strict monotheism or the belief in only one God, who is the Father.
    ” God the Father and God the Son” a direct violation of biblical teachings.

    This is the proof that the messenger that had been sent of God is a genuine one. Upholds the same doctrines of the apostolic times. That’s why we the members of the Church are not wondering why the church is always in triumphant of church activities. And it can’t be hide, the whole world itself witness of his kind. Even YOU Mr. Quirino.

  125. alfred says:

    To: Mr Quirino Sugon Jr

    The Iglesia N Cristo family says that they are the only religious congregation in the world that will be saved on “Judgement Day” because Iglesia Ni Cristo is the Church of Christ? How about other religions? If I join Iglesia Ni Cristo now is there an assurance for me that I will be saved too? Thanks

  126. dj says:

    ALFRED:

    Search first the history of the church you wish to be part of. Consider these questions: 1st, Are they connected to Jesus and the Apostles? If not, then, there is no reason to believe them. Jesus wishes to save all humanity, not just a group of people. 2nd, if they are claiming to be of Christ, then, who are those people or head of their church between the Apostles and the present head?

    Consider this one: “And the Gates of Hell (even death, persecutions, etc) shall not prevail against it (the Church).”

    I’ve learned that the reason why the INC was apostatized because of the False Teachings of the False Prophets. If that is true, they make Jesus a liar. The Church will never be apostatized nor disappear nor whatever you might want to call it because Jesus promised His church that even the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

    But if ever the true church did really apostatized, then they did not listen to Christ’s warning when He said that there will be false prophets, will say that I am with them.

    For them, Jesus is just human but Manalo is the 4th Angel. Hhhmmm…. And they call their sect, Church of Christ.

    “Not all who will call me ‘Lord Lord’ will be saved.”

    “Beware of False Prophets.”

    If the INC is the real church that Jesus founded and they were apostatized because of the false teachings of the false prophets… MALAKING PANANAGUTAN NILA YAN SA DIYOS.

    God wishes to save all humanity, including those who lived before Jesus. If the INC was apostatized in the early years of their church and was emerged in 1900s, what will happen to those people who died between those years that INC was not present? Are they doomed to hell just because they (INC didn’t listen to Jesus’ warning?

    That is why it is very important that the True Church must prevail against the Gates of Hell, death and persecutions because the ‘KEY of HEAVEN’ was given to the Church. “I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT “THROUGH ME””.

    If the keys were lost just because they were apostatized just because of the False Teachings of the False Prophets, then those people who lived without the true church was condemned to hell.

    Is that their fault? NO! It is the fault of those people that were apostatized because they didnt listen to Jesus’ warning.

    But then, it is not applicable to them or to any other churches, sects and cults.

    To know if you do really belong to the true church of Christ, know the history of the church, how it was founded, how did it survived persecutions and death if it was really present during the persecution years.

    Well, if it is not present, then.. it is not the true church the Jesus founded. And sad to say, what the Bible is saying about the true Church is not applicable to them.

    If we have found the right and true Church, then listen to it for it is Christ’s Body…

    Sino yung paniniwalaan natin? Yung Iglesia na nagsimula pa nung panahon ng mga Apostoles o yung Iglesia na nagsimula years and years after the Apostles died? The 2,000 years old Church or the 100 years old Church?

    I

  127. dj says:

    NELSON:

    U have included enough Bible verses that says that God is the only true God. We don’t deny that and we believe that God is the only true God in the sense that there is no other God beside Him – the only God there is and not the God which other non-Christian religion worships. If you have read the Old Testament books, one example of god there is the god of thunder which people worship during the time of Elijah. There, Elijah challenged their god and proved that God the Father is the only true God.

    Yan yung ibag sabihin dun. God of Abraham, of Jacob and of Isaac is the only True God. But why did you not include what John says in John 1? To summarize the whole chapter, it says there that: “IN THE BEGINNING IS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS GOD AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD. AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH (Jesus) and DWELT AMONGS US (Holy Spirit).”

    Another example of gods that people worship is the anitos which the early filipinos worship before magellan came to the Philippines. That is the reason why the spaniards was so agrressive in bringing Christianity in the Philippines because of the images people worship. Well, thank them for bringing Christianity here.

    Now, we have read in the Old Testament the word “LORD”. And in the New Testament, the Apostles calls Jesus Lord. Why? Because they knew that Jesus and God are only One. That is why we Catholics calls God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It’s like our First Name, Middle Name and Family Name. Our name won’t be complete is we give only the first name. What completes the Father is the Son and Holy Spirit. Just like this… A husband and a Wife cannot be called family unless they have children. There must be 3 of them to be called a family.

    God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 different persons in the sense that the Father is not the Son and not the Holy Spirit because the Father is the Father, the Son is the Son and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit but they are ONE TRUE GOD.

    “In the beginning is the Word and the Word was God” tells us that God is present in the beginning of time and that the Word was God Himself.

    “The Word was God and the Word was with God” tells us that in the beginning was God and was with God. There are 2 of them that is why God said when He created the world, “Let US Make….” and the New Testament Gospel tells us that not ONE THING was created without Christ. Meaning, every creation that God the FATHER created is made with JESUS.

    “And the Word became FLESH” tells us that God the Father humbles Himself, make Himself human in the person of Jesus Christ. God cannot be human being and name Himself “God” but He becomes flesh in the person of Jesus which means “God with US.” It tells us that Jesus came into this world so that we may be with God in person.

    “And DWELT amongst us” tells us that God who becomes flesh dwell in us as a Holy Spirit.

    Have you notice before Jesus Ascended to Heaven? He told the Apostles not to be afraid that He will GO FIRST TO HEAVEN AND SEND THE HELPER which is the Holy Spirit.

    If Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are different and not ONE, Jesus could send the Holy Spirit by asking the Father God to bring the Holy Spirit to the World but then Jesus said that I WILL GO TO HEAVEN AND SEND YOU THE HELPER. Can He not send the Holy Spirit when He is still on earth?

    God became man in the person of Jesus which means GOD WITH US… meaning, God is not only in Heaven but also came into this world in the person of Jesus. God is among the Apostles and amongst us. It does not mean that God is not in heaven because He was here on earth in the person of Jesus.

    God in the person of the Holy Spirit dwelt amongst us and will be with us till the end of time. What is guiding the true Church is the Holy Spirit and it does not mean that it is not God who guides us because the Holy Spirit and God are ONE.

    That is why Jesus instructed the Apostles to bless, baptize, etc “in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

    If Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not God, why did Jesus include Himself in baptizing, blessing, etc the people? Does it mean he is trying to equal Himself to God?

    Jesus was crucified because of BLASPHEMY… saying that He and God are ONE. Jesus calls these Pharisees HYPOCRITES, they can’t accept the fact that Jesus and God are ONE and are THE SAME. Jesus Himself says that “He and I are ONE” the reason why the head of the Pharisees tore his clothes in anger. Pharisees are those people who believe in God, who believes and waits for the coming of the Messiah and who believes that they are the only group of people that will be save (like what other people now a day claims that they are the only ones that will be saved). That is why Jesus said to His Apostles, “NOT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ME ‘LORD LORD’ WILL BE SAVE.”

    Jesus built His Church upon Peter with the Apostles. To know that we belong to the True Church, it must be present during the time of the Apostles. In order for us to know, we should trace who are those people after the Apostles… successors of Peter. This is important because the Keys was given to Peter which will be used in opening the Doors of Heaven. If Peter doesn’t have successors, the Keys will be lost that is why Jesus promised that the CHURCH WILL PREVAIL AGAINST FALSE PROPHETS, DEATH, PERSECUTIONS AND EVEN THE GATES OF HELL.

    We need proof that we do belong to the True Church. Just like what Matthew wrote in his gospel (1st chapter), the Genealogy of Jesus. Why? Because the early Christians especially with the Jewish Lineage wants proof that Jesus is the Messiah, the Chosen One. So Matthew wrote down the Ancestors of Jesus because according to them, the Messiah came from the Descendants of David.
    No wonder why God chooses Joseph, he is a righteous man. That is the proof that Matthew showed the early Christians with the Jewish Lineage.

    Now we must have proof that we belong to the true Church of Christ (not church of Christ with the small ‘C’). A proof that the Church must be Apostolic in the sense that it started with the Apostles like Peter and Paul. Trace it, after Peter, who is next in line? If your present leader of your church, sect or cult is connected to the Apostles, then you do belong to the True Church. The True Church by the way is present from the time of the Apostles and will never disappear in this world for, again, Jesus promised the IT WILL PREVAIL AGAINST DEATH.

    Is your present leader of the Church connected to Peter and Paul or to the Apostles? Is your church present since the 1st century? If yes, who are the people who became the head of your Church?

    It is like a country were there is a successions of presidents. If our present leader or president in the country was never connected to the 1st president or leader, he might be an impostor.

    In the Church, the Keys should be passed on to Peter’s successors. If the master or owner of the house for example gave the keys of his house to his slave, it means that he gave the authority of his house to that slave. If ever the slave dies, the keys should be passed on tho whoever he chooses. When the master returned and found out that the slave is already dead, he will look for the person to whom his slave entrusted the keys of his house. Whoever is holding the keys, for sure, he was given authority over his house.

    Now, those who do not belong to Christ’s household will never be saved. This is only applicable to the one who has given authority by God in the person of Jesus. Outside the true Church, there is no salvation. TRUE! That is why nobody is outside the Catholic Church – Universal: of any race, nation and culture for God wants everyone to be saved and not just a small group; Holy: because the founder is Holy; and Apostolic: for it is founded upon Peter – His Apostle.

    When Jesus sends His HELPER or the Holy Spirit, Mother Mary is with them. And so, Mary must be present in the True Church. She is part of the Church. Why? A mother is considered the “ILAW NG TAHANAN.” If God built His family here on earth, there must be a Mother who will guide that family. It doesn’t take away the role of Jesus but doing what Mary is suppose to do as Christ’s Mother.

  128. Jhoel says:

    Bro. Quirino,
    I offer my prayers and every sunday mass for your endeavor in spreading the TRUTH — which CHRIST delivered to us 2000 years ago through our beloved Holy Catholic Church.
    Thank you for inspiring us to fight the darkness of other false and perfidious religions.
    CHRIST REIGNS, SO AS CATHOLIC CHURCH…

  129. laycarmelite says:

    forwarded wrote:
    I’m asking for a biblical verse THAT SUPPORTS the Catechism’s claim that the number of the saints canonized is the measure of church holiness. I went back to the verses that you cited and I didn’t find anything in them that bolsters the Catechism’s contention. The verses support the proposition the church must be holy, which is not really the issue here.

    my reply:
    could you post the excerpt of the Catechism you are questioning because I cannot find it in the catechism. thanks.

  130. anghel custodio says:

    its no use to argue with these “Iglesia ni Manalo” (INC) their church is founded by an agent of satan. its best we pray for their enlightenment and leave their cult, and they be not blinded by the Devil by false doctrines and other cultic ideas.

  131. michael barak says:

    mga katoliks sumamba n lang kayo s larawan tutal wala n kayo kapag asa asa matagal ng tapos ang pasya s inyo simula pa itatag ang mundo panahon p ni eva at adan tapos n pasya s inyo. pinag pauna n yn ng biblia wait waitg nyo n lang ung apoy n kung san dun kayo lahat lalangoy tuloy u lang lahat ng imbentong aral nyo ni isa man ay wala s biblia

  132. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Michael Barak,

    Nasaan mo mahahanap sa bibliya na tototo nga ang sinabi mo?

    Where in the Bible can you prove that what you say is true?

  133. Ivan Misoto says:

    To Mr. Quirino M. Sugon, Jr.:

    I found this thread as I was looking for other faiths other than the Iglesia ni Cristo.

    I am an INC convert. I was a Catholic at birth.

    Honestly speaking, Mr. Sugon, after reading most if not all previous posts, I still find the doctrines being taught by INC as the true teachings based from the Bible. The most significant teaching is about the one true God. Actually, eto yung pinaka-reason why I converted to INC after I graduated in college.

    If Jesus Christ is God as the Catholics believe, bakit wala nakasulat sa Bible na direktang sinasabi ni Christ na siya ay Diyos? Hindi ba isa sa mga reasons kaya naparito sa mundo si Christ ay para mapakilala niya ang tunay na Diyos? Wala po kasi logic kung hindi ituturo mismo ni Christ na Diyos siya kung Diyos nga siya. Hinarap niya kahit anong mga pagsubok at paghihirap, eh, dapat lang siguro wala siyang hindi sasabihin ng direkta lalo na sa kung sino talaga ang tunay na Diyos. Ang mas malinaw ay yung pagpapakilala niya na ang Ama ay siyang Diyos na tunay. Wala makikita sa Bible na sinasabi na ang Ama, Siya at ang Espirito Santo ay iisang tunay na Diyos. Laging may distinction sila ng Ama, sa maraming pagkakataon sa Bible. Hindi ba dapat din maging malinaw sa mga taong inaaralan ni Christ nung panahon niya ang lahat ng bagay na tinuturo niya, lalo na ang tungkol sa Diyos?

    Marami ding pagaaral sa history ng pagbuo sa Trinity sa pamamagitan ng Council of Nicaea. From those studies, it can be inferred that teaching about the divinity of Christ is really not biblical.

  134. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Ivan,

    Christ speaks in parables to those who are not his disciples, “Because knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted.” (Mt 13:10-11). So if you wish to know who Christ is you ask the disciples or the disciples of the disciples. When Christ died, there was yet no New Testament, so the faith of the disciples cannot be based on the Bible but on the teachings of the apostles and their appointed successors. It is they who compiled the New Testament, so it is only they who can authoritatively interpret it.

    Since you mentioned history, let us talk about history. John the Apostle has a disciple named St. Ignatius of Antioch. St. Ignatius wrote: “There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.” —Letter to the Ephesians, ch.7.

    In year 325 the bishops gathered in the First Council of Nicaea, after 300 years of persecution by the Roman Empire–the persecution which ended in 313 through Constantine’s Edict of Milan. One of the reasons for the council was the settle the nature of Christ. Arius do not believe in the divinity of Christ. His doctrine is called Arianism, which is the forerunner of the teachings of Iglesia ni Cristo. If Arianism is based on the teachings of the apostles and their successors, why is it that of the 250–318 bishops, all but 2 voted against Arius and condemned his teachings? And the bishops wrote the Nicene Creed, which states:

    “We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.”

    If you think about this, you will notice that these bishops hardly know each other because they were separated by geographical expanse and by persecution. Yet they still agree on what is apostolic teaching or not. INC’s belief that the early Church apostasized is not supported by historical evidence.

    Be careful, Ivan. “To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant”–John Henry Cardinal Newman.

  135. ivan misoto says:

    Hi Mr. Sugon:

    Thank you for your reply.

    I can sense how deep is your faith to the Catholic Church. I may not be as knowledgeable as you are with regards to the history and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, but, I, too, can honestly say that at some point in my life defended my Catholic faith before my conversion to the Iglesia ni Cristo. So, hats off to you, Mr. Sugon, in that aspect.

    Nevertheless, my search for the true Christian church led me to INC. The INC teachings that had great impression on me and made me decide to convert include, again, the doctrine on the one true God, the lordship of Jesus Christ and his distinction from God, the Father, also the beliefs on the birth and death of Christ, and on how unbiblical the use of graven images by the Catholics.

    You cited the verse, Mt.13:10-11. about those who were granted the knowledge of the kingdom of heaven. In the same way, we can also say that not all men are given the understanding of the one true God. But, how can we tell which is which or who is who? Who are those people that have been given that wisdom or spiritual knowledge? How can we tell who they are when each religious authority (Catholic Church, INC, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) has been defending their own beliefs?

    Also, just a confirmation, do you believe that Christ built only one true church? If so, what is that church called? In relation to that, why was the Church of Christ (what I mean is the one built by Christ in the Bible) been given, if not labeled, the name Roman Catholic Apostolic Church? And, if there is only one true church of Christ, what will happen to those who are outside of it and to those who belong to other religions?

    TIA, Mr. Sugon. I hope you will keep your patience in answering all of my queries. More to come.

  136. Ivan Misoto says:

    Hi Mr. Sugon:

    Upon reading other topics posted in your blogs, I can say that most of my concerns about the Catholic faith had already been discussed, asked. and argued by my fellow co-members of INC. Anyways, I would still appreciate it if you answer my previous post.

    I also agree with Seeker. Not all persons who give their comments and identify themselves as INC members are authentic. Some of them might have the intentions of destroying the reputation of the INC, including the use of name callings. Honestly speaking, I found this forum very helpful to all those who are really seeking for the truth. In the end, it’s still everybody’s choice. We are also the ones responsible to our own deeds. We will also be judged by our own actions and not by others’, isn’t it, Mr. Sugon?

    We may have different faiths right now, Mr. Sugon, but, I really do find this endeavor of yours of educating or teaching about your faith to all seekers of the truth as inspiring. I don’t want to be argumentative about my INC beliefs. I’d rather learn and try to understand other beliefs such as the Catholicism. I also once became a Catholic defender myself before becoming a member of the INC. However, I admit that I was not that well-versed as you. My parents, still, are traditionalists in being Catholics until now. I am the only member in our family who converted to INC. Yes, I can’t avoid to join them in their celebration of Christmas. However, I am not in one in spirit with them with regards to their faith. This occasion is also the time for our reunion so, I really don’t have a choice but to attend during this family gathering. They respect my beliefs as I respect theirs.

    Just one more thing. How can you prove the authenticity of the succession of the authority given to the apostles of Christ being handed down to the bishops or popes of the Roman Catholic Church?

  137. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Ivan,

    You have many points. I shall focus my response only on those that ends in question mark.

    There is only one true religion. One can determine this from the wisdom of its founder and the proof of his authority through miracles. Well, Islam, INC, and Buddhism can also make such claims. So we look at the fruits of religion. We look at the men and women who lived the ideals of the religion and see if we wish to emulate them. For Catholics, the proof of the truth of the Catholic religion is in the holiness of the saints who followed the example and teachings of Christ. As Christ said:

    “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.k
    16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:15-20)

    Christ said, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’(Mt 25:40) With this belief, Mother Teresa cared for the dying of India, because she saw Christ in them. This selfless caring for the dying has not been thought of in Hindu religion and will never be because Hinduism divides people into castes.

    Christ said, “Put your sword back into its sheath, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword” (Mt 26:52). St. Joan of Arc liberated France from the English without taking her sword to kill, and she wept bitterly for both the French and English who died in the battlefield. In the Battle of Orleans, the French and English faced each other. Because it was Sunday, St. Joan forbade the French to attack because it is the Lord’s day; they should wait for the English to make the first move. After one hour of both sides doing nothing, the English turned their backs without a fight and lost the battle. St. Joan is unlike Muhammad who treated Jews and Christians as enemies to be killed without compassion, or taxed to death until they convert to Islam. The fruit of Muhammad is the Jihadists who kill even innocent civilians.

    Christ said, ““Not all can accept [this] word,* but only those to whom that is granted.12 Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage* for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”” (Mt 19:11-12). To not marry for the sake of the kingdom of heaven is the vow of celibacy made by priests and consecrated brothers and sisters–and there are many saints who took this vow and lead holy and heroic lives, even to the point of martyrdom for the love of Christ. Did Felix Manalo of Iglesia ni Cristo not marry for the sake of the Kingdom of God? He married. If you believe Wikipedia, Manalo was excommunicated by Philippine Mission Churches of Christ and by the Seventh-Day Adventist Church because of adultery. Was there anyone in Iglesia ni Cristo took vows of celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom of God, following the example of Christ. None. Iglesia ni Cristo even teaches celibacy as contrary to the Bible.

    So basing from these examples, which do you think is the true religion?

  138. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    If Jesus Christ is God as the Catholics believe, bakit wala nakasulat sa Bible na direktang sinasabi ni Christ na siya ay Diyos? Hindi ba isa sa mga reasons kaya naparito sa mundo si Christ ay para mapakilala niya ang tunay na Diyos? Wala po kasi logic kung hindi ituturo mismo ni Christ na Diyos siya kung Diyos nga siya. Hinarap niya kahit anong mga pagsubok at paghihirap, eh, dapat lang siguro wala siyang hindi sasabihin ng direkta lalo na sa kung sino talaga ang tunay na Diyos. Ang mas malinaw ay yung pagpapakilala niya na ang Ama ay siyang Diyos na tunay. Wala makikita sa Bible na sinasabi na ang Ama, Siya at ang Espirito Santo ay iisang tunay na Diyos. Laging may distinction sila ng Ama, sa maraming pagkakataon sa Bible. Hindi ba dapat din maging malinaw sa mga taong inaaralan ni Christ nung panahon niya ang lahat ng bagay na tinuturo niya, lalo na ang tungkol sa Diyos?

    My reply:
    The INC belief is based on the false understanding of John 17:3. This verse should be understood with the other verses that refers to the divinity of Christ.

  139. ivan misoto says:

    Mr. Sugon:

    I hope all Catholic priests are as well versed as you regarding your faith. Just FYI, as part of the transition process before my decision to convert to INC, I had the chance of talking to our locale parish priest. But, unfortunately, he responded very negatively to my search for the truth about the Catholic faith. He acted as if he had no time answering even the very basic questions. Moreover, the biblical verses he read to me could not even be used to answer effectively the critics or the “unbelievers” of the Catholic faith. I even went to a laity of the Life in the Spirit Seminar group which held meetings in that church. My thirst for spiritual knowledge then was not satisfied by the religious people that supposed to be giving enlightenment to the Catholics.

    Anyway, as I said I will not be argumentative about my INC faith. I just wanted to say that when I went to an INC minister to ask those questions regarding spirituality and religion, I can say that I learned a lot from those meetings. My intention now, Mr. Sugon, is to still learn from wise spiritual preachers such as you who I believe is teaching people without pretense and is really sincere in this endeavor.

    So, you said that we should be wary of false prophets, and that we shall know them by their fruits. Isn’t it that there are also people in other religions that show really good deeds to their fellowmen? Some of them even possess humility that nowadays are hard to see in people. They are not as famous as Mother Theresa or Saint Joan of Arc, but, I believe that you too have friends like them or have met people like them. Some of them also are very diligent in their church services and responsibilities. My point is: how can man be really saved, considering that we keep on committing sins before God? Will religion be a way to salvation or just our “faith”? Similarly, what if we do persevere in doing missionary works for the glory of “God,” but then, it is not the same God as the God of other faiths? Will those works, no matter how selfless, still count on the day of judgement, if that “saintly” person did not really serve the true God who is spoken of and being taught in the Bible? Do we really need to find the true Church of Christ before we can serve God and go on with our missionary works?

    About the vow of celibacy that Catholic priests are required to take…I don’t want to go to that topic right now. I already understood the stand of the Catholic Church regarding that doctrine as well as the side of the INC.

    To laycarmelite, thank you for replying to my post. But, it would be better if you have elaborated more about how the INC misunderstood the verse John 17:3.

  140. Santiago Vargas says:

    To INC about John 17:3, you should better read the next sentences up to 17:5 it says “4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” Ok, this is it, “I had with you before the world began” it is true that Jesus really was in the beginning of the world and also will be in the end. He is the Alpha and the Omega, to follow the logic, He must be God. No doubt about it.

  141. Huwey says:

    hayz.. i cant help thinking how inc people think they are the the chosen ones by God.. which in truth, it started in middle asia which is israel.. lolz..

  142. Ivan Misoto says:

    To Santiago Vargas:

    Firstly, FYI lang I don’t intend to represent the whole INC. I would like to reply to your post just as an INC member. My purpose in this thread is personal as I seek the truth about other religions.

    Now, about the divinity of Jesus Christ…When I was still a Catholic I also used the verse John 17:5 along with John 1:1 to prove that Christ is really God. However, upon studying the doctrine of INC about the true God, which is the Father, and the lordship that was given to Christ by God, it is more logical and is biblical to believe what INC is teaching. Following are some of the verses which speaks about the true God and His nature: John 17:3 (Jesus said himself that the Father is the only true God), John 8:40, 1 Cor 8:6, and John 4:24 (God is spirit).

    Also, I believe that it is more logical to say that the Father is the only true God as Jesus himself said in 17:3 than to say that Jesus is God based on John 17:5, which would just be an assumption since this verse do not state that Jesus is really God. Instead, what is more clear is that Christ is the only mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5). Again, there is a clear distinction between them. Furthermore, no one knows that Day when the heaven and earth will pass away, not even Christ nor the angels, but only the Father (Mark13:32). And, the time will come when Jesus will have to subject himself before God (1 Cor 15:27-28).

    When Jesus Christ is called as “the Alpha and the Omega” like the Father, this also does not prove his divinity. This link, http://studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-01.html, shall suffice the explanation to that.

  143. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    To laycarmelite, thank you for replying to my post. But, it would be better if you have elaborated more about how the INC misunderstood the verse John 17:3.

    My reply:

    The INC misunderstood it because your ministers relied heavily on the words “only true” as found in John 17:3. There are other verses in the Scripture that uses the same word to Christ like the only true Light. Does this mean that the Father is a false Light because he is not called true Light yet the Father is called the Father of Lights.

    It is the false exegesis of the scriptures by the INC where the error lies. All taken out of context.

    Its a pity that you haven’t found persons who can answer your questions face to face. Not all Catholics are learned in apologetics. What you experienced is the same thing that I have experienced. What I cannot ask from the priests and others, I searched through good references. The INC uses Catholic sources. I looked for them and I don’t rely on their quotations. I have to look to the original source so as to get the context of the quotation.

    The INC has been very dishonest in giving quotations. Your INC ministers cut and paste quotations and twist the real context of the quote just to support their propaganda. This can be found in many Pasugo magazines.

    So unlike you, I have seen the authenticity of the Catholic Church vis a vis the false teaching of INC.

  144. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    About the vow of celibacy that Catholic priests are required to take…I don’t want to go to that topic right now. I already understood the stand of the Catholic Church regarding that doctrine as well as the side of the INC.

    My reply:

    The vow of celibacy taken by Latin Rite priests IS NOT AND NEVER WAS A DOCTRINE of the Catholic Church. It is not a De Fide Doctrine nor a Dogma. When will the INC learn. It is just a DISCIPLINE OR LAW (ISANG BATAS). Being a discipline it can be repelled.

    If you want to know the doctrines of the Church look at the Niceno-Contantinopolitan Creed.

    FYI… Eastern Rite Catholic priests have a MARRIED PRIESTHOOD. It is only in the Latin Rite aka Roman Catholic Church that Celibate Priesthood exists as a MATTER OF LAW!!!

  145. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    So, you said that we should be wary of false prophets, and that we shall know them by their fruits. Isn’t it that there are also people in other religions that show really good deeds to their fellowmen? Some of them even possess humility that nowadays are hard to see in people. They are not as famous as Mother Theresa or Saint Joan of Arc, but, I believe that you too have friends like them or have met people like them. Some of them also are very diligent in their church services and responsibilities. My point is: how can man be really saved, considering that we keep on committing sins before God? Will religion be a way to salvation or just our “faith”? Similarly, what if we do persevere in doing missionary works for the glory of “God,” but then, it is not the same God as the God of other faiths? Will those works, no matter how selfless, still count on the day of judgement, if that “saintly” person did not really serve the true God who is spoken of and being taught in the Bible? Do we really need to find the true Church of Christ before we can serve God and go on with our missionary works?

    My reply:

    Ano ba yan??? I thought you have learned something from your ministers. Haven’t you learned anything from the Old and New Testament??? From the Book of Jonah, from the story of Elijah, and from the parables of Jesus???

    I am out of time but reflect on Romans 2: 14 -16.

  146. ivan misoto says:

    To Mr. Sugon:

    I’m wondering why until now my recent post (dated Dec.9, if I’m not mistaken) addressed to Santiago Vargas has not been published? I am really looking forward to find answers to all my queries as well as to learn how others understand the beliefs of INC.

  147. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Ivan,
    Sorry, I was out for two days. I now posted your comments.

  148. ivan misoto says:

    Thank you, Mr. Sugon.

    I just thought that you might have closed this thread for posting new comments since it has been already over two years now when you started this.

    This site is very informative for those who are seeking for the truth. And, I believe that you are fair in treating and answering all posts, be it from Catholic or other religions. I see the calmness in your spirit. Those posts that were demeaning would really take a humble heart to answer with sincerity and positivity.

    It would be of great help if you could also give your side concerning the issues I addressed to Santiago Vargas.

  149. ivan misoto says:

    To laycarmelite:

    Just a clarification — I don’t intend to represent the Iglesia ni Cristo as a whole. I am just a common member of INC. I don’t hold any office in any of the functions of the church. And, my knowledge is so limited compared to the wisdom of the learned INC ministers and workers.

    However, I can say that the doctrines taught by the INC are clear enough to understand the distinction of the state of being of God, the Father, from that of Christ Jesus. The point of discussion in the verse John 17:3 is about the revelation of Jesus Christ himself about the only true God, which is the Father. He did not say that “the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” is the true God. The statement of Christ in that verse seems so clear about how he recognizes the Father. Moreover, in the verse Matthew 27:46, Jesus said “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Why would he utter “my God, my God” directed to the Father if he is “also the Father” or “God” himself?

    About the vow of celibacy of the Catholic priests…isn’t it that a person wanting to become a Catholic priest cannot be ordained if he does not take that vow? Would that be the same as saying that marriage is prohibited or forbidden to those who are taking priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church? The point is — in 1Timothy 4:3, it is said that one of the teachings by the demons is to forbid people to marry.

    Laycarmelite, it’s good that you have seen the authenticity in the Catholic faith. I would appreciate it very much if you share with me your Catholic beliefs as contrary to the INC by starting with who the true God is. Did God really became a man through Jesus Christ? Or, is this teaching of a God becoming a man, who has died and resurrected, has been based from the Greek mythology?

  150. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Now, about the divinity of Jesus Christ…When I was still a Catholic I also used the verse John 17:5 along with John 1:1 to prove that Christ is really God. However, upon studying the doctrine of INC about the true God, which is the Father, and the lordship that was given to Christ by God, it is more logical and is biblical to believe what INC is teaching. Following are some of the verses which speaks about the true God and His nature: John 17:3 (Jesus said himself that the Father is the only true God), John 8:40, 1 Cor 8:6, and John 4:24 (God is spirit).

    My reply:
    If Jesus’ reference to the Father being “the only true God” somehow excludes Jesus from being deity, then (to be consistent) Jesus also must be disqualified from being man’s Savior. Yahweh said: “Besides me there is no savior” (Isaiah 43:11; cf. Hosea 13:4; Jude 25).

    The INCs interpretation of John 17:3 started with a wrong premise.

    Premise: There is only one true God.
    Premise: Jesus himself said the Father is the only true God.
    Conclusion: Jesus cannot therefore be God.

    Although John 17:3 affirms the Father is the only true God, it does not say only the Father is God nor Jesus is not God. The cults have misinterpreted this by concluding Jesus is not God.

  151. Ivan Misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    I suggest that you read the whole chapter of each reference you mentioned (Isaiah 43:11, Hosea 13:4, Jude 25. The first two are records of events during the time of Israel. God was talking to His people, Israelites. Of course at that time who is the “only Savior” of Israel? COMMON SENSE is enough to comprehend why God said to His people then that He was their only Savior. In Jude 25, the title “Savior” has been ascribed to God. Is there an argument in that verse? Of course, NONE also. Just use again your COMMON SENSE. Biblically speaking, Laycarmelite, the title “Savior” as well as “Lord,” “King of Kings” and “Alpha and Omega” are actually attributed to both God, the Father, and to Jesus Christ, FYI. But, those titles do not denote that they have the same STATE OF BEING.

    Actually, laycarmelite, in the verse John 17:3, there should have been no argument if we talk about who is the only true God which Christ Jesus had spoken at that time. It is crystal clear that the only true God who Christ had spoken in that verse is no other than the Father.

    One more thing — What is that “premise” you are talking about and that being used by the Iglesia ni Cristo? That verse (John 17:) is ONLY one of the references that INC is using on the precept that the only true God is the Father, FYI. I have also given some other verses that CLEARLY distinguish God, the Father, from Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

    And, how about this?

    From the verse John 20:17, it is written — “Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

    Have you not noticed? Again, Christ had revealed who God really is, that is, the Father.

  152. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Ivan,

    I shall answer your 2011/12/06 comment.

    1. Yes, there are people in other religions who show good deeds to their fellowmen, but there is difference in merit. If a stranger gives a woman a bouquet of roses, the woman can simply smile and say thank you. But if it is her beloved boyfriend who gives her an ordinary flower freshly plucked from the field, and telling her, “I love you,” the woman would be ecstatic in joy. Similarly God gives more merit to those good deeds done by His beloved adopted sons–and infinitely more that of His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. The good deeds of non-Catholics may save themselves. But the good deeds of Catholics can save not only themselves but also those of others, especially the souls in Purgatory. This is what the line “I believe in the Communion of the Saints” means in the Apostle’s Creed.

    2. The first path to salvation is through the Sacrament of Baptism. As Christ said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit” (Jn 3:5). “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:15). Peter also said to the crowd: “Repent and be baptized,* every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.u 39For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”v 40He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”w 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. (Acts 2:37-41)

    3. Through Baptism we become adopted sons of God, so that we can call Christ as our Brother and God as our Father, and God will say as He did to His Son: “This is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased. (c.f. Mt 3:17)” Sonship can never be revoked, but you can squander God’s graces as what the prodigal son did. Yet God always awaits for the coming home of his son. For Catholics, this coming home to God after a life of sin is done through the Sacrament of Confession. Catholics must tell all their sins to the priest whom Christ gave the power to absolve sins: “Receive the holy Spirit. 23* n Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained” (Jn 20:22). This power to forgive sins was given to the apostles and to their successors, the bishops. The bishops in turn delegated this power to the priests.

    4. Basing from 2 and 3, the Catholic religion is a real path to salvation and not just an emotional feeling or an intellectual opinion. The Catholic religion is a practical religion because it saves man from sin.

    5. God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by his Sacrament. For those who were not baptized in the Catholic religion, God will judge them according to their conscience. So even if the pagans have not heard of the Gospel, they will still be judged by their obedience to the natural law engraved in their hearts. Indeed, what you are asking is what the Japanese also asked St. Francis Xavier. The Japanese are worried that their ancestors have not heard of the Gospel and will not be saved. Here is an excerpt of the letter of St. Francis Xavier to the Society of Jesus in 1552:

    “Before their baptism the converts of Yamaguchi were greatly troubled and pained by a hateful and annoying scruple—that God did not appear to them merciful and good, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese before our arrival, especially if it were true that those who had not worshipped God as we preached were doomed to suffer everlasting punishment in hell. It seemed to them that He had forgotten and as it were neglected the salvation of all their ancestors, in permitting them to be deprived of the knowledge of saving truths, and thus to rush headlong on eternal death. It was this painful thought which, more than anything else, kept them back from the religion of the true God. But by the divine mercy all their error and scruple was taken away. We began by proving to them that the divine law is the most ancient of all. Before receiving their institutions from the Chinese, the Japanese knew by the teaching of nature that it was wicked to kill, to steal, to swear falsely, and to commit the other sins enumerated in the Ten Commandments, a proof of this being the remorse of conscience to which any one guilty of one of these crimes was certain to be a prey.

    “We showed them that reason itself teaches us to avoid evil and to do good, and that this is so deeply implanted in the hearts of men, that all have the knowledge of the divine law from nature, and from God the Author of nature, before they receive any external instruction on the subject. If any doubts were entertained on the matter, an experiment might be made in the person of a man without any instruction, living in absolute solitude, and in entire ignorance of the laws of his country. Such a man, ignorant of and a stranger to all human teaching, if he were asked whether it were or were not criminal to kill, to steal, or to commit the other actions forbidden by the law of God, and whether it were right to abstain from such actions, then, I say, this man, so fundamentally without all human education, would most certainly reply in such a manner as to show that he was by no means without knowledge of the divine law. Whence then must he be supposed to have received this knowledge, but from God Himself, the Author of nature? And if this knowledge is seen among barbarians, what must be the case with civilized and polished nations? This being so, it necessarily follow that before any laws were made by men the divine law existed innate in the hearts of all men. The converts were so satisfied with this reasoning, as to see no further difficulty; so that this net having been broken, they received from us with a glad heart the sweet yoke of our Lord….”

    6. Nevertheless, it still remains the task of Christians to proclaim the Good News, in fulfillment of Christ’s command: “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 h Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,20i teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mt 28:18-20)

  153. ivan misoto says:

    Mr. Sugon:

    In no.1 of your comment, you have mentioned a few things that are also worthy of discussion. But, I’ll raise that up next time. Now, on good deeds… I 100% agree with you about your analogy, as what Jesus Christ said in Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?” It means that not all good works according to man’s standards are acceptable to him. So, it is vital to our salvation that we know and fully understand what Christ is commanding us to do in order for our good deeds to be in conformity with his teachings. Moreover, it is stated that all things should be done in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (Col 3:17). In relation to that, it is also indispensable that we know who the true God is as God, the Father, said in the First Commandment that there should be no other gods before Him.

    In no.2, you cited the verse Acts 2:37-41. I believe, and also INC teaches, that Baptism should be done on children at the right age when they can understand the gospel/teachings that they will be receiving prior to baptism. So in Iglesia ni Cristo, there is indoctrination first before a person (at least 12 years of age) will receive Baptism. Another verse is Mark 16:15,16 to prove that point.

    It is also appropriate to say now that in order for man to receive salvation comes judgement day, it is our responsibility to know and follow all the things that are being commanded to us by Christ and by God. Also, it has been forewarned that no one should add to or subtract from the words written in the Bible. Hence, why call Jesus Christ as God when he never said so nor instructed us to do so. Instead, at many instances in the bible, he addressed the Father as his God (and also ours). I can’t help but cite again the two verses, Matthew 27:46 and John 20:17, in which Christ clearly identified the Father as God. Why would he call the Father “My God” if he is also God the same as the Father as the Catholics believe?

  154. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    I suggest that you read the whole chapter of each reference you mentioned (Isaiah 43:11, Hosea 13:4, Jude 25. The first two are records of events during the time of Israel. God was talking to His people, Israelites. Of course at that time who is the “only Savior” of Israel? COMMON SENSE is enough to comprehend why God said to His people then that He was their only Savior.

    My reply:

    Sometimes common sense is not so common that it backfires to the one saying it. You are now arguing about time frame yet when the INC ministers use the same verses that there is no other God besides Yahweh, they don’t restrict that Yahweh is just speaking to the Israelites. If we are going to take your frame of understanding, Yahweh here is speaking to the Israelites only in the Old Testament while the Yahweh in the New Testament speaks to Christians. Thus in these other verses: Isaiah 43:10; 44:8; 45:5-6; 45:21 and 46:9 – Yahweh just speaks to the Israelites.

    Now, who is the “only Savior” of Israel? The answer lies in Matthew 15:24 which is then explicitly taught by St. Paul in Titus 2:13-14.

    In John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1;3; Rev. 1:6; 3:12: Jesus calls the Father “My God” because He is still man as well as God; note the distinction between “My God” and “your God” in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of “our God” including Himself with the disciples).

    I’m out of time and will answer the points that you have raised. But suffice to say that there is a difference between BEING and PERSONS.

  155. laycarmelite says:

    Sorry, I will answer the points that you have raised in another post.

  156. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Ivan,

    1. Lest I be misunderstood, I have to say that it is necessary that man enters the Church through Baptism in order for his good works to have merit before the eyes of God.

    2. Regarding Baptism, indoctrination is not necessary before Baptism. Baptism in the New Testament takes the place of circumcision in the Old Testament. As St. Paul said:

    “For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity* bodily, 10and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power. 11h In him* you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. 12You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:9-12)

    In the Old Testament, circumcision was done. Jesus was circumcised when he was 8-day old (Lk 2:21). Circumcision is a sign that a male child becomes part of the God’s chosen people, Israel, the Kingdom of God:

    “Throughout the ages, every male among you, when he is eight days old, shall be circumcised, including houseborn slaves and those acquired with money from any foreigner who is not of your descendants.i 13Yes, both the houseborn slaves and those acquired with money must be circumcised. Thus my covenant will be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant. 14If a male is uncircumcised, that is, if the flesh of his foreskin has not been cut away, such a one will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” (Gen 17:12-14)

    In the New Testament, Baptism takes the place of circumcision. In Baptism, man becomes part of God’s family as God’s adopted son. Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Mt 19:14)

    3. The divinity of Christ is summed up by St. Paul: “For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily” (Col 2:9). This is the mystery of the Incarnation:

    “Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,* 6Who,* though he was in the form of God,d did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.* 7Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness;* and found human in appearance,e 8he humbled himself,f becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross”. (Philippians 2:5-8)

    Sin is an offense against God, so only God can forgive sins. Jesus, the Son of Man, forgave sins because he is also God the Son. As Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.v 35A slave does not remain in a household forever, but a son* always remains.w 36So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free.” (Jn 8:34-35)

  157. ivan misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    I have to admit that it is difficult to have a conversation with you as if you are “speaking in tongues,” (just kidding) most especially on your views on the verse John 20:17. That verse is so clear and yet, just to prove your point about Christ as God, you have to rely on adding to what is already written. Reflect on Proverbs 30:5-6 and Deuteronomy 4:2 that you may learn not to adulterate the Holy Scripture.

    Now, your argument about Titus 2:13-14 that proves Jesus Christ is also God, I have to make some cross references to make you understand it completely because it has been translated falsely just to satisfy the intention of Trinitarians. However, due to my limitations, I will have to leave this kind of argument to our ministers.

    Again, laycarmelite, if Jesus Christ is God, why did Christ not say or preach that to his disciples and to the early Christians? Instead, what Christ did was to proclaim that the Father is God. And, there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (1Timothy 2:5).

  158. ivan misoto says:

    Mr. Sugon:

    I shall ponder on the references you gave in your last post. Thanks…

  159. Ivan,

    Trinitarian (Holy Trinity) belief does not conflict any logic. It has the complete reasoning about God the son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father, but there is only One God. In Holy Trinity, Jesus is not only man but also God, He is with the father in the beginning when God created heaven and the earth. John also said that He was the Word in the beginning and was made flesh. Catholics does not conflict with the argument that Jesus is man as what INC claims but, Jesus is not only a man He is also a God as the bible say so. It is only God that was in the beginning, no man, no prophets, no ministers, no bible, no mediator in the very beginning of the world, of everything. At this point, INC contradict themselves when they claim that Jesus is only a man not God; a mere with special power from God the Father; a man that walked the earth, preached about the His Father in heaven and died; because Jesus was in the beginning, He is the Word in the beginning, was made flesh and made his dwelling among us.

  160. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    I understand your point. Been there, done that. As I’ve said in my first comment, I was a Catholic at birth. I got converted after I graduated from college. Actually nakapagresearch din ako ng ibang pananampalataya at paniniwala besides my former religion the Roman Catholic Church. So, the defense that you and others here in this thread are using are not new to me. I relied on those principles too as a Catholic when I tried to prove that INC is a false religion. I would often say to those who criticize the Catholic faith that they couldn’t and would not understand the Holy Trinity because it is a mystery… and that only those who are given the understanding can accept its mystery. I’m not an expert on this field. I may not be that familiar with all the bible verses. But, I believe I can surely defend my INC faith now more than my former beliefs.

    My point is — if you will tell that INC teachings are contradicting, better explain clearly why you say so using bible verses as much as possible; because without proving your point sufficiently, it will be just an accusation.

    Where exactly does INC contradict itself?

    INC believe that the Father is the only true God because indeed the Lord Christ Jesus spoke of this. To cite again some verses that clearly show that the Father is the only true God, distinct from the Lord Christ Jesus: John 17:3, John 20:17, 1 Corinthians 8:6. And in Matthew 27:46, Christ said “My God, my God…” Furthermore all the power and authority of Christ came from the Father. His lordship was also given upon him.

    If I may ask you this same questions: Why didn’t Christ preach that he is God? Why are there no verses in the bible that explicitly say that Christ Jesus is really God? THEN, WHY CALL AND RECOGNIZE CHRIST AS GOD WHEN HE NEVER TELLS HIS PEOPLE TO DO SO? The fact is there is a “true God” that he has already revealed, which is the Father.

    Reflect on Matthew 7:21-23 in which Christ has emphasized the importance of doing the will of the Father.

    Lastly, if Christ Jesus is also God himself, why doesn’t he know the end of the world? (Matthew 24:36)

  161. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    Additionally, in John 1:1 when it states that “…the Word was God, and the Word was with God…,” it is should not be assumed that “Christ must therefore be God”. To be honest, Santiago Vargas, I don’t have with me all the verses and references (some of them are academic that define the terms like logos, theos, ho theos) that the minister read to me to explain why the translation was made like that. I can just give an overview of what John 1:1 means. Firstly, the word “God” used in that verse can be translated as “divine” (James Moffatt version of the bible). So the term “God” there does not refer to the essence of being God (which is the Father). It just characterizes the Word which comes from the Father as “divine.” Secondly, the term “Word” or “logos” in Greek which means a thought or reasoning. Some verses to compare the use of the term “Word” include Hebrews 4:12 and Rev 19:13.

    FYI the INC never teaches that Christ is just a “man.” Instead, sinasamba din namin si Cristo dahil iniutos ito ng Diyos. In Matthew 28:18, Christ (himself) had spoken that all authority in heaven and earth came from the Father. In Acts 2:36, it says “…God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” He did not commit sin (1 Peter 2:21-22), as “only a man” is inclined to make. However, time will come when Jesus will subject his power to God (1Cor 15:27-28).

    Jesus Christ is “not” a mere man, rather, he is our Lord. He has the authority over all creations. But, he is not the same as God, the Father…for God is greater than Christ (John 14:28). Jesus Christ has a “God” and so do his disciples (John 20:17). One clear distinction of God, the Father, and Christ Jesus is in 1 Corinthians 8:6 “Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” Why still make a distinction in this verse, if they are of the same nature or essence?

  162. Ivan,

    Here is an analogy to your question “Why didn’t Christ preach that he is God?”, If Jesus is God, then why He was born in a manger? If Jesus is King of Kings then why He was born in a crummy manger? If Jesus is God that was made flesh,then why in a manger? Why not in an palace made of gold and silver with hundreds of angels and expensive brouhahahas? Why, Ivan, What do you think? Why only gold, frankincense, and myrrh are the gift for the new born King of Kings? Why not an extravagant kingdom with hundreds of slave to serve the new born King? Why Ivan, What do you think?

    Here is another, I would say, a notion to what INCs concept about Jesus as God. If Jesus is God then why he did not come down from the cross? If Jesus is God then why did not throw himself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. If Jesus is God then why He did not command all creatures to kneel before him, “I am God, all of you, kneel before me and praise me now!” What do you think Ivan?

    That is not the manner or the attitude that Jesus want for us. He want us to be humble. He want us to carry our own cross and follow him.

    Now if I cite verses and verses from the bible about the divinity of Jesus, as God, as the Creator of heaven and the earth, as the Alpha and the Omega, it will appear that I am copying and pasting such tautology to this blog and that is awful. I presume that you already know such bible verses.

    Now here is something for you to contemplate, If Jesus is King of Kings, why He was born in a manger? Why didn’t Christ preach that he is God?

    Merry Christmas to you!

  163. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    I really can see what you are pointing out in your comment.

    This is to clarify things up — I, and the INC as well if I may say, have nothing against the humility and the tremendous sufferings that Christ Jesus went through. He showed mankind the right PATH or WAY to salvation. He even overcame all the temptations that were placed before him. He has made himself known as the Messiah, as our Lord and Savior. And, I must say this — he revealed to us who the true God is. Yes he suffered a great deal of pain on the cross that no man can possibly endure. Yes, he experienced all of those in spite of being our Lord, the King of Kings, and most of all being the Son of God. All of those things had already been foretold, Santiago Vargas, FYI. Those things happened because those were the WILL of the Father for Christ and for mankind. In Luke 22:39-46, Jesus Christ prayed and uttered this “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” Christ had shown mankind how to be perfect before God’s sight. That is why he commanded us too to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. But, then, again, the life of Christ is really an evidence that the true God is the Father, and that Christ was sent to the world to save mankind from sin.

    All I’m really trying to say is that Christ had spoken of the Father as the only true God, and, no one else. In the Old Testament as well, the God of Israel, the God of Moses, the God of Abraham, and the God at the time of Adam and Eve, is just but one only true God, the Father. At the time of Christ, there is also one God being taught in the Bible, and that is the Father, not the Son. Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ is the “Word” in the beginning (John1:1), who was made flesh and dwelt among men (John 1:14). But, the term “Word” in John 1:1 has been translated from the Greek word “logos” which also means a “thought” or a “reasoning.” And that term “God” in “…and the Word was God” should have been “divine” instead, as a modifier to the Word of God. Think about this also: If the term “God” in that statement means the same as God (when we speak of the Father in ESSENCE), there should be consistency in all other verses when Christ has been addressed. Instead, what is more clear, consistent and accurate is that the Father is God (as Christ himself said in many instances) and that Christ is our Lord and Savior.

  164. Ok Ivan, the entire dilemma or confusion lies here “FYI the INC never teaches that Christ is just a “man.” Instead, sinasamba din namin si Cristo dahil iniutos ito ng Diyos”. You mean you “samba din naman Cristo” then you “samba” too, also God the Father? That is illogical in your side, and your position in this discussion is distorted. It will appear that you make “samba” on both Jesus and God the Father . In that case, you will end up believing in the Holy Trinity. I told you that Trinitarian Belief does not conflict anything about Jesus being man, God and the Creator, because they are One God.

    Jesus was crucified because He equate Himself to God and that is blasphemous during that time.

  165. Ivan, please clarify your position before we proceed, you might be believing in the doctrine of Trinity unaware that it is indeed the Trinity belief that you are into. You may not believe in the word “Trinity” because it is not to be found in the bible but you might be believing in its Doctrine without knowing it. The problem of the INC is that they do not have the official doctrine that the public can refer to. Your position is still foggy and I cannot draw a single line in your ground.

    To simplify and clarify everything, you should chose which is which and who is who that you make “samba” to/too ( I didn’t intend it to rhyme), Jesus Christ, God the Father or The Holy Spirit? There must be only One God; so let us know who among these three you make “samba”. You must Chose only one of them because there must be only One God.

  166. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    There is no confusion on how worship should be given to both God, the Father and Lord Jesus Christ. Your must understand that the Father is the true God and that Jesus Christ was made Lord by God. The only distorted points of view here are those that are not based on the bible. You keep on defending the teaching about the Trinity even if you have to defy the truth that is already presented before your very eyes. You have no choice but to attribute also the titles of God, Creator, Alpha and Omega to Jesus Christ because you equate him to the only true God, the Father. And, that’s the truth about the Trinity.

    You just can’t accept the TRUTH and the FACT that the Father is the “only true God.” You have to FORMULATE “another God” just to include all three into one. Imagine, Santiago Vargas, 1+1+1=1. Mathematically speaking, it’s very very wrong. How much more if we base that from the Bible?

    There is NO teaching of whatsoever about the “Trinity” in the Bible…maybe in OTHER man-made references. You can always use the latter if you choose to, BUT, you can never use them to contradict the truth in the words of God.

  167. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    This is just to enlighten you more what is really meant by being ILLOGICAL when we speak of FAITH.

    What is ILLOGICAL is when you exclaim that you believe in and follow Christ Jesus when in reality you IGNORE his teachings, particularly about who the TRUE GOD is.

    What is ILLOGICAL is to believe that there are three persons in ONE GOD (Trinity) when, besides being NOT based from the Bible, it also CONTRADICTS the statement of Christ himself, that is, there is “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, THE FATHER.” (John 17:3)

    What is ILLOGICAL is to keep on insisting that the Trinity is the true God, when Christ said that the Father is his God as well as his disciples’. (John 20:17)

    What is MORE ILLOGICAL and DISTORTED is to keep on insisting more that Jesus Christ is also God and that God has a PHYSICAL BODY (that is, through Christ), when, AGAIN, Christ himself said that God is “SPIRIT.” (John 4:24)

    Have you also noticed, Santiago Vargas, the speaker in the above-mentioned verses? Yes, it is Christ Jesus himself FYI. Take note also that the God he is referring to is just the Father. There’s no passage in the Scripture wherein he preaches that he is “also God,” then why do and believe otherwise?

    Better read the whole chapter of John 4, so you may know how Christ teaches how God, the Father should be worshipped, and that the lies that are already instilled in you shall perish.

    Christ was crucified because of the TRUTH he proclaimed. That same TRUTH you can never fathom because what you follow is your own desires. Christ has taught us VERY WELL how to be OBEDIENT to the Father, even for him it meant death on the cross. No ordinary and sinful man could have done what Christ Jesus went through. It should always be the WILL of the Father, not our will, that must be done. Christ has already redeemed his people (his true followers) through his crucifixion. That is what we should imitate — HIS HUMILITY AND HIS OBEDIENCE TO THE WILL OF THE FATHER. He has proved his great HUMILITY. How? Because even he has NOT COMMITTED ANY SIN unlike any man of this world, he has to suffer and die that way.

    Now, why should we worship the Lord Jesus Christ? MAYBE you already know the answer to that. Yes, it is also the WILL of the Father (Philippians 2:9-11). Furthermore, just as being OBEDIENT to His WILL is very vital to salvation, the ONENESS with THEM (Christ and God, the Father) is just as equally essential (John 17:20-23).

  168. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:
    I have to admit that it is difficult to have a conversation with you as if you are “speaking in tongues,” (just kidding) most especially on your views on the verse John 20:17. That verse is so clear and yet, just to prove your point about Christ as God, you have to rely on adding to what is already written. Reflect on Proverbs 30:5-6 and Deuteronomy 4:2 that you may learn not to adulterate the Holy Scripture.

    My reply:
    You accuse of me of adulteration of the scripture yet the INC ministers use the same strategy in in claiming FYM as the last Messenger. =)

    Since you are insisting to accept the verse at face value, my question is why is the verse written that way? Why did Jesus said “my God and your God” instead of “OUR God”? Also, why didn’t Christ correct Thomas in John 20:28 (just 11 verse away from John 20:17) when the apostle called him “My Lord and My God”? Please don’t say that it was an expression of surprise because it is a pathetic explanation. I just can’t find the link from the RSV’s commentary on John 20:28 where it refutes the claim.

    Ivan Misoto wrote:
    Now, your argument about Titus 2:13-14 that proves Jesus Christ is also God, I have to make some cross references to make you understand it completely because it has been translated falsely just to satisfy the intention of Trinitarians. However, due to my limitations, I will have to leave this kind of argument to our ministers.

    My reply:
    Why can’t you give the cross reference here and see if the claim is indeed false. Your reason to leave the argument to INC ministers is typical INC reply when they cannot refute or cornered. Can’t you give testimony to the “hope you were given” by your ministers (1 Peter 3:15)? Why can’t you simply refute a claim from a simple member of the Catholic Church that it need an INC minister to refute a simple member?

    In all of these, it just show that the “hope” that was passed unto you was false.

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Again, laycarmelite, if Jesus Christ is God, why did Christ not say or preach that to his disciples and to the early Christians? Instead, what Christ did was to proclaim that the Father is God. And, there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (1Timothy 2:5).

    My reply:

    Jesus Christ is both God and man. Did Christ not say or preach to his diciples/early christians that he is divine? The whole Gospel of John and the letters of Paul bears testimony of his divinity. What Christ did was to proclaim the inner reality of the Godhead: that the one God exists in three divine persons. This mystery is rightly understood in the mystery of Marriage and the mystery of the Church.

    The one God has a monarchy is the reason why in John 17:3 the Father is called the one true God. That is why in the Nicene Creed we say “I believe in one God, the Father Almighty…” why???? because God the Father is the first person (Greek hypostasis, “individual reality”), or distinction, within the Godhead. The Father is the “origin” or “source” of the Trinity. As such, God the Father is often called “God Unbegotten” in early Christian thought. That Jesus Christ shares in this divine nature as taught by in John 1:1-24 and calls him the monogenes theos = the only begotten God.

    Read Athanasius’ Discourse on the Arians for further understanding.

    Also, do you have a copy of Pasugo (June 1995 Issue) article, entitled “Is Jesus Christ called ‘God’ in John 1:1?”, pp.6-12, authored by Mr. Bienvenido Santiago? Because in that issue his arguments are flawed.

    If the man Christ Jesus is the mediator in 1 Tim 2:5 then who is the mediator angel in Job 33:23?

  169. ivan misoto says:

    thirdworldchildren,

    There is only one true God…and that is the Father. This is my position (as well as the INC) from the very start I commented on this blog…it’s crystal clear…maybe you haven’t read my previous comments. Anyway, the following are just few verses wherein the Father is clearly recognized as the one true God.

    In John 17:3, Jesus Christ said — “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3)

    In John 20:17, this is what is written — “Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    God is spirit and has no physical body, CONTRARY to the teaching of the Catholic Church that God became man through Christ Jesus. (John 4:24, 1 Timothy 1:17)

    Then, why also worship Christ?

    We worship the Lord Jesus Christ, not because we recognize him as God, but because it is the will of God, the Father (Philippians 2:10-11). Visit this link: http://studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-20.html

  170. ivan misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    All I can say is that the only true God is the Father. The FEW verses that I gave previously CLEARLY prove that. The Lord Christ Jesus HIMSELF was the one speaking about the Father as the only true God, FYI. Should there be an argument? The teaching on Trinity can never be found in the Scriptures, then, why formulate it? Isn’t the words of God in the Scriptures enough to know who the true God is? Reflect on Proverbs 30:5-6 and John 14:15 as well.

    About your concern on John 20:28, when the apostle Thomas said “My Lord, and My God!”… Of course, you already know the reason why Thomas said that. You just can’t accept it. Notice the exclamation point at the end of “My Lord, and My God!” Definitely it’s an expression of great surprise. Just put yourself in his shoes? Wouldn’t you react the same way as Thomas who was in doubt in the first place about the resurrected Christ? If that statement of Thomas should prove the divinity of Christ as of God, then it would just contradict the earlier statement of Christ in 20:17 in which he said “…my God and your God… There’s no logic in believing that John 20:28 proves that Christ is also God since there are numerous verses from the Old Testament and the New Testament showing the Father as the only true God.

    You also cited the verse 1 Peter 3:15 and said that I should give my testimony about Titus 2:13-14 instead of relying on our ministers. I am trying my very best to share with you the TRUTH that I have learned from becoming a member of the Iglesia ni Cristo, FYI. Now, wouldn’t it be appropriate, if I just let our ministers explain some issues that I know I am not capable of doing so? I see nothing wrong in that. I can only comment on Titus 2:13-14 this way — That verse is not talking only of Christ Jesus. Instead, there are two persons being mentioned there, one is “…the great God” and the other is “our Savior Jesus Christ.” (King James Version). Trinitarians would usually say that there is only one person being spoken of in that verse…of course, to defend the principle of Trinity. Again, claiming that “…the great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (denoting one person) is the true translation would only favor Trinitarians.

    By the way, thanks for the additional references you mentioned.

  171. Here we go again Ivan, you said “Now, why should we worship the Lord Jesus Christ? MAYBE you already know the answer to that. Yes, it is also the WILL of the Father (Philippians 2:9-11).” Ivan, INCs are also “worshiping” Jesus because God the Father say so or that is the will of the Father. I am just wondering how many being are you worshiping? Jesus AND God The Father? Ivan, there must be only one God to worship, Jesus only or God the Father only. If you worship both Jesus the Son and God the Father, I said before you will end up believing the Trinity unaware of it.

    Ok Ivan I will give you some Bible verses that will contradict to each if you do not believe in the Holy Trinity. Take note that Bible cannot contradict itself.

    Jesus is/was/always God:

    Matthew 1:23
    “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    Isaiah 9:6
    For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Isaiah 43:10,11 – “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
    Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 – (Jesus is the First and the Last)

    Isaiah 44:6 – (God is the Redeemer)
    2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) – “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

    Isaiah 44:24 – (God created the world by His self alone)
    John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 – (Jesus made all things)

    John 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… 1:14 – And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

    John 5:17,18 – “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

    John 5:23 – that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    John 8:24 – “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

    John 8:58 – Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    John 10:30-33 – Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    John 14:6-7 – Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

    John 14:9-11 – Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

    John 20:28 – And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Acts 4:12 – “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

    Acts 20:28 – (God purchased us with His own blood)
    Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 – (Jesus’ blood purchased us)

    Philippians 2:5-7 – Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

    1 Timothy 3:16 – And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

    Titus 2:13 – looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

    Hebrews 1:8,9 – But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    2 John 1:7 – For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    Revelation 1:8 – “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Revelation 22:13 – “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”… 22:16 – “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

    VS these Verses, Jesus as a Man (Trinity does not conflict with these Verses)

    Matthew 24:36
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

    Matthew 26:39
    My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.

    John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

    John 5:30
    By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

    John 5:19
    The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.

    Mark 10:18
    Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.

    Matthew 6:9
    Our Father, which art in Heaven.

    Matthew 27:46
    My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    John 17:21-23
    . . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.

    Ivan, you will always end up in deep-eternal-infinite contradiction with these Bible verses if you do not believe in Trinity. One God in three Persons. One triangle with three corner (do not Add). Think about it.

  172. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    You just can’t accept the TRUTH and the FACT that the Father is the “only true God.” You have to FORMULATE “another God” just to include all three into one. Imagine, Santiago Vargas, 1+1+1=1. Mathematically speaking, it’s very very wrong. How much more if we base that from the Bible?

    My reply:

    1+1+1=1 is very RIGHT AND TRUE IN BINARY MATHEMATICS.

  173. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto:

    What is MORE ILLOGICAL and DISTORTED is to keep on insisting more that Jesus Christ is also God and that God has a PHYSICAL BODY (that is, through Christ), when, AGAIN, Christ himself said that God is “SPIRIT.” (John 4:24)

    Reply:

    Colossians 2:9-10
    New International Version (NIV)

    9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

    Colossians 2:9-10
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

    Colossians 2:9-10
    Good News Translation (GNT)

    9 For the full content of divine nature lives in Christ, in his humanity,10 and you have been given full life in union with him. He is supreme over every spiritual ruler and authority.

    Who is more ILLOGOCAL and DISTORTED? You or St. Paul?

  174. laycarmelite says:

    In 1 John 4, two spirits were classified: (1) those who have the Spirit of God who acknowledge that Jesus became a man, and (2) those who have the spirit of the antichrist who do not acknowledge this fact.

    This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. (1 John 4:2-3)

    Now, can any man “come in the flesh?” Isn’t he already in the flesh? How can someone transform into something he already is? This kind of reasoning is pointless! Now, how about those who claim that “in the beginning, Jesus, the Logos in John 1:1, was the expression of God [similar to the words we use to express ourselves]. “That expression,” they contest, “was begotten by God, as in John 1:14, so we have the man Christ Jesus.” You see, this too is self-defeating since, according to the Letter of Paul to the Colossians (1:15-18) this alleged “expression” was a self-existing creator (see also Hebrews 1:1-2):

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the first born from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

  175. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ is the “Word” in the beginning (John1:1), who was made flesh and dwelt among men (John 1:14). But, the term “Word” in John 1:1 has been translated from the Greek word “logos” which also means a “thought” or a “reasoning.” And that term “God” in “…and the Word was God” should have been “divine” instead, as a modifier to the Word of God. Think about this also: If the term “God” in that statement means the same as God (when we speak of the Father in ESSENCE), there should be consistency in all other verses when Christ has been addressed. Instead, what is more clear, consistent and accurate is that the Father is God (as Christ himself said in many instances) and that Christ is our Lord and Savior.

    My reply:

    Can you clarify because the Pasugo said: As we have argued earlier, the Word or the Logos in John 1:1 embodies God’s plan of creation and salvation both of which have to do with our Lord Jesus Christ. It is not Jesus Christ but about Jesus Christ. What was in the beginning was the Word not Jesus Christ. What was with God in the beginning was the Word not Jesus Christ. What was predicated by the term God in John 1:1c was the Word, not Jesus Christ. (Pasugo, June 1995, p.12)

    Now your confusing. You stated that the Logos was Christ and now it means a thought or reasoning. Is the Logos of John as person or a thing?

    Also what is the meaning of divine if “the Word was divine” instead of “the Word was God” is used.

  176. ivan misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    One more thing…we, members of the Iglesia ni Cristo, truly believe in the last messenger, Felix Y. Manalo. He had proven the genuineness of the teachings of the Iglesia ni Cristo. We believe that the teachings that we uphold are in accordance to the teachings of God, of Christ and of the apostles. That is the ONENESS that we are proud of. That ONENESS too shall also lead us to holiness or perfection. That is the responsibility of each member of the INC. Now, if you do not believe in him or the prophecy about him in the Bible, it’s your choice.

    Better prove the truth behind the rationale of the Holy Trinity that the Catholic Church upholds. In doing so, if that Catholic doctrine about the one true God is really TRUE and ACCURATE, then, certainly, all of the teachings of INC, are also erroneous.

    Isn’t it also ILLOGICAL when you say that Jesus Christ is also God while the Lord is always speaking of the Father as the true God? You must realize that when Christ was described in the Scripture as having the form or likeness of God, what was meant was the purity of his spirit, and not God in ESSENCE as of the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ committed no sin; and, all his life, he only did what the Father had commanded him to do. If you say that Christ is God (in ESSENCE) because it is also written in Philippians 2:6-7 (you might bring this up too) that he was in the “form of God,” you must therefore conclude that man is also God (in ESSENCE) because it is also written in Genesis 1:27 that God created man in His own image.

  177. Ivan,

    Look carefully, you yourself are victim of your own quicksand you formulated in this issue, yet you do not admit that you believe in the Trinity but in fact you are clearly doing it.

    You said,
    “There is no confusion on how worship should be given to both God, the Father and Lord Jesus Christ. Your must understand that the Father is the true God and that Jesus Christ was made Lord by God.”

    Yes, surely there is no confusion on how to worship both Jesus Christ and God the Father, because they are one God.That is the Trinity.

    Since you do not explain how you worship Jesus Christ and God the Father, your position will lead into this conclusion.

    It seems that you worship both in a different degree. Like for example you worship Jesus Christ just because it is only the will of God the Father, so you worship Jesus Christ as a “Lord” only because He is not the True God; Like worship Jesus Christ in worship “Level Two” only, because He is only man was made “Lord” by God the Father; but worship also God the Father in lets say “Worship Level Three” (the Highest degree of worship) for God the Father because He is the True God.

    What is that kind of thing? Worship Jesus Christ in lower level of worship and highest level of worship is reserved for God the Father? Like, two chocolates for Jesus Christ because He was only made Lord by God the Father and three chocolates for God the Father because He is the true God. That is insane.

    So to clarify, please explain the difference how you worship Jesus Christ between God the Father the True God. You might end up worshiping two Gods, or worshiping one Lord and one God if you do not believe in the Holy Trinity. It is clear as daylight that we must worship only one God.

  178. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    Certainly, YOU are the ONE whose views are VERY DISTORTED.

    Come on, Santiago Vargas. Do you really think that by just citing so MANY verses and having a lengthy presentation (through a collection of VERSES) of what is supposed to be a commentary, will vindicate your erroneous belief about the true God? Of course, NOT.

    Instead, do you realize what you have done? Well, it’s very very clear. You just made your points of view MORE DISTORTED.

    I bet you do not have the nerve of discussing each verse that you have COLLECTED. But, I can tell that it’s a good COLLECTION. Better reflect on each verse, ONE by ONE…I repeat ONE by ONE… so you may understand what those verses really mean.

  179. ivan misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    Visit this link:

    http://studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-13.html

    The article explains why the Catholic belief concerning the preexistence of Christ Jesus can never be true. That teaching was created to support another belief, the Trinity, which was formulated by the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. (http://studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-14.html)

    If the Catholic Church authorities would just be as honest as how true Christians should be, they should have taught that history in all Catholic Schools… that there was no teaching of the “Trinity” during the time of Christ and the apostles. It was only in 325 A.D. that the formula on the Trinity was created, through the intervention of Emperor Constantine.

  180. ivan misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    I just want to clarify when I said that the Word in John 1:1 is also Christ, what I meant was — it was the master plan (thought, reasoning) of God in the beginning about Christ. That is why it is wrong to conclude that Christ preexisted or coexisted with the Father in the beginning. Where is the logic in that teaching? — To say that Christ was God (essence) in the beginning, and then was transformed into a human being? Don’t you find its resemblance to the Greek mythology wherein gods intermingle with men by becoming human beings too?

    If Christ is also God when he was in the world, then, there will be two Gods during his time, one in heaven and one on earth. That would definitely contradict the teaching about ONE God. If you will say that Christ is only man when he dwelt among men, does it mean that he knew he was God but did not reveal it to his disciples and to the people? If that’s the case, then, Christ could have lied to his disciples by not telling them straightforward about his true state of being (God). However, if that happens when Christ would say that he is also God, then, endless chain of contradictions will follow since how can you reconcile that teaching when God has been taught as spirit, with no physical state?

    My point is — if you just open your heart for the TRUTH to come in, you will see the falsehood of the Trinity dogma. The TRUTH and AUTHENTICITY about the teaching that the only true God is the Father implies the genuineness of the Church of Christ or the Iglesia ni Cristo as well.

  181. Ivan,

    One Colombian author named Gabriel Garcia Marquez quoted in one of his novels titled One Hundred Years of Solitude and it goes like this “The world was so recent that many things lacked names, and in order to indicate them it was necessary to point.”

    Trinity is the truth that came from the bible. Catholics called it The Holy Trinity, to point out the One God in three persons. That is the very truth from the Bible and it does not complicate any verse in the Bible from beginning to end. Note that the word “Bible” is never be found in the bible itself. The Catholic Church chose what books to include, they put chapters and verses on them, compiled it and called it Bible.

    What do you call the “that truth”, the Jesus equate himself to God, the apostles wrote and preached that Jesus the messiah, the God became man and joined us on earth, the Jesus was the beginning and the end, that He Is before Abraham before all things created.

    Remember that during the times of the apostles there was no Bible. Catholic Church collected the holy scriptures, compiled it and called it The Holy Bible. Catholics also called the “truth”, the One God in Three Persons that came out from the bible The Holy Trinity.

    You keep on barking ” there was no trinity during the time ofchrist and the apostles!”, because the holy scriptures during that time was not yet compiled and the stories in the bible are yrt on the process.
    If you insist about the teachings during the time of Christ and the apostles, then you must not refer to the Bible! Because during that time there was no Bible yet and there was no tagalog language so do not also use tagalog as medium language of preaching. Do not ever use Bible because it will lead you to a world of Holy Trinity, else make your own bible!

  182. ivan misoto says:

    Thirdworldchildren,

    Yes, I will emphasize it again there is no confusion about the worship that is due to God, the Father, and to the Lord Christ Jesus. You know why? It is in accordance to the WILL and COMMANDS of the the Father. That should always be the case, thirdworldchildren. The Catholic Church has always been following man-made commandments contrary to God’s WILL. Then, how can you say there’s holiness in such faith? What the Catholic Church has shown through its endless chain of erroneous teachings is otherwise. You have failed to see the TRUTH about God, the Father, who Christ Jesus has always been teaching as the true God. Verses after verses can sufficiently prove that. What you believe as your God is only in accordance to the authority of the Catholic Church. What the Catholic Church has done to prove the belief on the deity of Christ is to use verses that only provide VAGUE ASSUMPTIONS.

    Again, the worship that the Iglesia ni Cristo devotes to Christ is how God commanded it to be.

    http://studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-20.html

    The worship of the Catholic Church to a “Triune God”? Now, that is definitely MAN-MADE. Firstly, the dogma of the Trinity is man-made. I think the verses that I’ve already presented are enough to prove that claim. Where in the Bible can Trinity be found? Of course, the Catholic Church knows that the teaching about the “Trinity” can never be found anywhere in the Scriptures. However, the authority has found a way to prove that claim about the triune God by FORMULATING 1+1+1… equals what? Yes, just 1. Imagine THREE DIFFERENT persons…God, the Father, who is spirit in the state of being from the very beginning…Christ Jesus, the MAN who God had promised and sent to mankind for salvation… and the Holy Spirit, the Comforter who is also being sent by God in Christ’s name (http://studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-16.html)…these THREE have been EQUATED into just ONE. Definitely this EQUATION can never be found in the Bible. It defies the very basics of mathematics, and most importantly, it defies the TRUTH of the words of God.

    Now, the TRUTH about th ONE TRUE GOD is this:

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

    John 20:17 “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.”

    The Catholic Church, on the other hand, has to FORMULATE their ONE GOD…and in doing so, has to make ASSUMPTIONS and interpretations of the Bible verses just to support that claim. I hope you notice that, thirdworldchildren. Just be honest to yourself. You will refer to John 1:1, believing that it proves the deity of Christ despite that the verse (if correctly translated) only states that the “Word” or “logos,” which means the thought or plan of God in the beginning about Christ, was “divine.” Of course, that thought or reasoning of God should be divine because it is His. You will also use Colossians 2:9-10 ” For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.” What this verse only implies is that Christ, because he has without sin, he also has reached the holiness as that of God. Those two verses DO NOT state that Christ is God. However, the Catholic Church refers to them to ASSUME the deity of Christ. Why ASSUME the deity of Christ when Christ himself has already taught who the true God is?

    Thirdwordchildren, if the Lord Christ Jesus is God (as one of the Trinity), WHY DOESN’T he know the end of the world considering that the true God is OMNISCIENT? The ONLY TRUE GOD is also in Matthew 24:36 which says “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

  183. Furthermore, If Felix Manalo is a prophet, a messenger whatever then why is he using the Bible?

    Prophets and messengers get direct orders from God, they do not use Bible arranged by the Catholic Church.

    God order to preach to all nations but did not commanded his people to compile and publish the bible and put pages, chapters and verses on it, translate in different languages and called it Bible? No.
    But the Catholic Church gleaned, publish and took care the holy scriptures for thousand years.

    To follow your logic, During the times of Christ and the apostles there was no Trinity; therefore Trinity is not biblical, Catholic Church invented it to deceive people.

    Now, During the times of Christ and the apostles there was no Bible; therefore Bible is not biblical, the Catholic Church invented it to deceive people.

    And then, walla! There goes Felix Manalo claiming a prophet, the last messenger interpreting the Bible correctly and condemning the Catholic Church the anti-christ. huh!

    That is cultish insane!

    Anyway, thanks for your time.I am not impressed by your reasoning.

  184. Ivan,

    I am asking how you worship Jesus Christ and how you worship God the Father. Did you INC guys worship both or not.

    By the way, you just mentioned that you worship too Jesus Christ, I am sure and right about this part, now do you worship also God The Father?

    I want to clarify about this stuff. You might end up believing in Trinity unaware of it. I am helping you to analyze your position that is foggy and distorted right from the start.

  185. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    Okay, if you want to call it Bible or Scripture or Holy Scripture, that’s fine. Use any terminology that would point to the same reference we are talking about. Okay? Now, does that change anything? No, Santiago Vargas. Trinity can never be found from any Scripture written by the prophets or by the apostles. Do you know why? The Trinity or Holy Trinity dogma was only created in 325 A.D. through the intervention of Emperor Constantine.

    YOU SAID:

    “You keep on barking ” there was no trinity during the time ofchrist and the apostles!”, because the holy scriptures during that time was not yet compiled and the stories in the bible are yrt on the process.
    If you insist about the teachings during the time of Christ and the apostles, then you must not refer to the Bible! Because during that time there was no Bible yet and there was no tagalog language so do not also use tagalog as medium language of preaching. Do not ever use Bible because it will lead you to a world of Holy Trinity, else make your own bible!”

    MY ANSWER:

    So, based from your comment above, where should you base the teaching of the Trinity? If not from the Scriptures written by the prophets and those during the time of Christ and the apostles, where should you get the teaching of the Trinity dogma?

    You said that the Bible will lead to the world of Trinity? Of course NOT! But, you may if you use the VAGUE ASSUMPTIONS just as the Catholic Church has done. Prove first that the “triune God” can be found in the Bible, or in the Scripture, or in the Holy Scriptures or even the slightest IDEA that a true God may consist of three persons. Did Christ Jesus ever prayed to a “triune God”? Did he pray to himself? NO! Christ spoke only of one true God, and, that is the Father alone, FYI.

  186. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    Furthermore, I am not trying to impress anyone here. I am only trying to speak the TRUTH about the FALSEHOOD of the Catholic teaching on the Trinity dogma, FYI.

    If you can’t remain reasonable with me, that’s fine. I’ve met people like you who can’t stand listening or accepting the TRUTH. They would rather remain in FALSEHOOD rather than seek the TRUTH.

    Anyway, it’s your choice…keep on praying to your graven images…maybe, somebody or something might answer you.

  187. Ivan,

    We cannot proceed if you are in camouflage; that is why I am asking who do you worship, Jesus Christ, God the Father or the Holy Spirit. After you answer that we can carry on.

  188. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    The Catholic Church, on the other hand, has to FORMULATE their ONE GOD…and in doing so, has to make ASSUMPTIONS and interpretations of the Bible verses just to support that claim.

    My reply:

    This can also be said to the claim of Felix Manalo plus the claim the Philippines is in the Far East theory. You know Ivan, the way you debunk the Trinitarian doctrine also flies to the face of the claims of Manalo being the last Messenger and the theory of the Philippines as the far east which are all ASSUMPTIONS. All of which are FORMULATIONS by FYM. I don’t believe in him as the last messenger because there is NO last messenger after Christ only apostles, prophets, etc (Eph 4:11).

  189. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Now, the TRUTH about th ONE TRUE GOD is this:

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

    My reply:

    if we are to be consistent using the INC logic that the Father is the only true God, then the following verses present a problem — if we use their logic.

    1.”For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” (Jude 4, NASB).

    A.Does this mean that the Father is not our Master and Lord?

    2.”There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him,” (John 1:9-10).

    A.Here we see Jesus being called the true light. Does this mean that the Father is not the true light?

  190. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    John 20:17 “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.”

    My reply:

    Why did Christ said “to My God and your God” instead of “to OUR God”??

  191. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    You will also use Colossians 2:9-10 ” For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.” What this verse only implies is that Christ, because he has without sin, he also has reached the holiness as that of God. Those two verses DO NOT state that Christ is God.

    My reply:

    Can you provide reliable sources from exegetes that Col. 2:9-10 speaks about the sinlessness of Christ.

  192. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    I just want to clarify when I said that the Word in John 1:1 is also Christ, what I meant was — it was the master plan (thought, reasoning) of God in the beginning about Christ. That is why it is wrong to conclude that Christ preexisted or coexisted with the Father in the beginning. Where is the logic in that teaching? — To say that Christ was God (essence) in the beginning, and then was transformed into a human being?

    My reply:

    See the prejudice here in explaining John 1:1. You took the verse out of context. Of course if someone would isolate the verse (John 1:1) he could give it any meaning he wants according to his prejudice. The Bible does not warrant such interpretation–the Bible explains itself. The second mistake is that you took it literally. You failed to see that John personified the Word as Jesus Christ. John 1:14 says the “Word became flesh” and that He (the Word) came from the “Father full of grace and truth,” and John continued, “grace and truth came from Jesus Christ.” In Revelation 19:13, John emphatically declared the name of Jesus to be “the Word of God”:

    He [Jesus] is dressed in robe dipped in blood, and his [Jesus’] name is the Word of God.

    Zodhiates which was used by Mr. Bienvenido Santiago in Pasugo 1995, an authority in Biblical Greek, commented on logos as, “speech that has intelligence behind it.” Dr. Zodhiates (cf Spiros Zodhiates, Was Christ God? (1966; reprinted ed., USA: Spiros Zodhiates, 1994), pp. 50, 52) also distinguished the Greek word from “lalia” which means “utterance or word.” Thus when John personified the Word as Jesus, or the Logos as Jesus, he (John) could have intended to mean Jesus (Logos) is the final authority on every word God. Therefore, John wrote the first verse of the Fourth Gospel to tell us about Jesus (the person)–what was His nature before He put on the flesh–God (John 1:1 cf. Philippians 2).

    There is logic in the teaching if you will not separate it with other verses that speaks about the nature of Christ. Moreover, Christ the Logos was not transformed but rather incarnated. Here it shows that you don’t know Catholic teaching as it is.

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Don’t you find its resemblance to the Greek mythology wherein gods intermingle with men by becoming human beings too?

    My reply:

    No. Read,

    So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak…. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” (Genesis 32:24,30)

    See also Genesis 9-13; 18:1,2; and 35:1-3. God also appeared to Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abiju, and the seventy elders of Israel (Exodus 24:9-11). Also to Gideon (Judges 6:12) and then both to Manaoah and Zorah (Judges 13:6). We need to be reminded though, that in these occasions, God did not appear in a dream (as in Genesis 28:12; 1 Kings 3:5) nor in his absolute glory–otherwise they could have died (cf. Exodus 33:7-23 and Isaiah 6). See also Genesis 22:15 and 1 Corinthians 10:4 and Hebrews 11:24-26 of the New Testament regarding the pre-existence of Christ.

  193. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    If Christ is also God when he was in the world, then, there will be two Gods during his time, one in heaven and one on earth. That would definitely contradict the teaching about ONE God. If you will say that Christ is only man when he dwelt among men, does it mean that he knew he was God but did not reveal it to his disciples and to the people? If that’s the case, then, Christ could have lied to his disciples by not telling them straightforward about his true state of being (God).

    My reply:

    It seems that you don’t understand the meaning and difference of nature/essence and persons/hypostases because you equate the two. The teaching about the One God existing in three divine persons can be understood in the explanation of the Scripture about the Sacrament of Marriage.

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    However, if that happens when Christ would say that he is also God, then, endless chain of contradictions will follow since how can you reconcile that teaching when God has been taught as spirit, with no physical state?

    My reply:

    Setting aside my belief that Christ is both God and man, I would like to ask you this question: Is it 100% impossible for God to come into flesh or become man? A simple yes or no will do.

  194. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    My point is — if you just open your heart for the TRUTH to come in, you will see the falsehood of the Trinity dogma. The TRUTH and AUTHENTICITY about the teaching that the only true God is the Father implies the genuineness of the Church of Christ or the Iglesia ni Cristo as well.

    My reply:

    Your point is taken but the TRUTH has already came in. There is no contradiction on the one true God being the Father since this was clearly explained in the Nicence-Constantinopolitan Creed. However, unlike the INC who made a doctrine out of a single verse, the explanation in the Creed is taken from the understanding of the whole Scriptures.

    Sorry but the Church of Christ or the iglesia ni Cristo is just full of falsity in doctrine and much more spin-doctoring of history. FYI, Romans 16:16 speaks of in plural that is why it states churches or mga iglesia. It does not speaks of a proper name. Also, Acts 20:28 speaks of about church of God in the actual text and not church of Christ (Lamsa version) which is fondly use by the INC ministers to bolster the claim. FYI, the Lamsa Version is not a reliable translation at all.

  195. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Visit this link:

    http://studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-13.html

    The article explains why the Catholic belief concerning the preexistence of Christ Jesus can never be true. That teaching was created to support another belief, the Trinity, which was formulated by the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. (http://studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-14.html)

    If the Catholic Church authorities would just be as honest as how true Christians should be, they should have taught that history in all Catholic Schools… that there was no teaching of the “Trinity” during the time of Christ and the apostles. It was only in 325 A.D. that the formula on the Trinity was created, through the intervention of Emperor Constantine.

    My reply:

    Thanks but the explanation is a re-used spin doctored history by the INC ministers. I have Pasugo copies in my personal library which I subscribed until 2005. I would suggest that you read up on the History of the Christian Church prior to Nicaea then read the “Horos” or proceedings of the Council. If you read the actual text you’ll see how distorted the history the INC presents.

  196. Ivan,

    You are in camouflage with fickle reasoning. You do not maintain any position. I am asking who do you worship, Jesus Christ, God the Father or the Holy Spirit?

    Simply answer my question because if you worship both Jesus Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit, we have nothing to argue about the Trinity.

    You cannot deny that you do not worship Jesus Christ because you just said that in your previous post. Now do you worship also God the Father and the Holy Spirit?

    I told you you might be believing in the Trinity but you are ignorant of it.

  197. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    Are you and others here taking some kind of medication or drugs? It seems that I’ve been repeating myself many times already. I have been repeating over and over again my position about the “one true God,” that is the Father, and the worship we give to the Lord Jesus Christ. The Trinity is just a MYTH and a CREATED DOCTRINE of the Catholic Church. The Iglesia ni Cristo only worship the Father as the “ONE TRUE GOD.” To be more clear about why worship is also devoted to Christ, visit the link — http://studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-20.html.

    NOW, it seems that you and others are trying to avoid answering my questions/concerns. Here they are AGAIN. I’ll just rephrase them to give some emphasis. Well, I really don’t expect you will give credible answers.

    IF CHRIST JESUS IS ALSO GOD, WHY DOESN’T HE KNOW THE END OF THE WORLD?

    IF THE TRINITY IS ALSO BIBLICAL, AS YOU SAY IT IS, WHERE CAN YOU FIND IN THE “BIBLE” THAT IT IS BEING TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES, OR BY THE EARLY PEOPLE OF GOD, ISRAEL?

    IF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS ALSO GOD, AS WELL AS MAN, TO WHOM DID HE PRAY? WHY WAS THERE A NEED FOR HIM TO PRAY TO GOD, THE FATHER?

    WHY FOLLOW “ONLY” THE WILL OF THE FATHER? You say that Christ is also God. Then why did Christ emphasize that all his power and authority came from the Father?

    IF CHRIST WAS ALSO GOD AND CO-EXISTED WITH THE FATHER IN THE BEGINNING, THEN WAS TRANSFORMED INTO A HUMAN BEING (similar to Greek mythology, don’t you think?), WHERE IS THE LOGIC IN THERE — Christ, as you insist, is God as the Father is God in the beginning, then he became man, and then has to die and be brought again to life, knowing that he is God? Come on, Santiago Vargas, and OTHERS here as well, I think you are already in the right age to understand simple logic. You don’t have to accept everything just because you were born in the Catholic faith. You have to SEEK THE TRUTH.

    But, again, I’ll just wanted to be sure. Are you, Santiago Vargas, not taking drugs? OR, are you really just trying to make the issue more disconcerting because you really don’t want to be reasonable OR you really don’t know the answers? Just answer my questions and prove the validity of your Trinity dogma. FYI, the belief on the “ONE TRUE GOD” is just one issue where in the Catholic Church has gone wrong. So, PLEASE if you have the GUTS, Santiago Vargas, start proving the truth of your Trinity belief.

  198. ivan misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    Whew! It seems years after I’ve finished reading your reply. Anyway, just like others here, you have misinterpreted the verses that you have presented — Word of God equals Christ (in being) AUTOMATICALLY? You said that I am being prejudicial in citing the verse John 1:1. You (and the Catholic Church) are the one giving your OWN INTERPRETATION of that verse FYI. Yes, of course, the Bible speaks the TRUTH, but you speak otherwise. No matter how long your answer is, it does not prove that the TRINITY is true, rather you have proven that that Catholic dogma is FALSE.

    Before you go to other issues (the name of the true church, the last messenger, etc.), prove first the AUTHENTICITY of your Trinity. Imagine, laycarmelite, 3 in 1 God? The God of Israel is the Father. The God of Jesus Christ is the Father too.

    WHY CREATE YOUR GOD? Are you not satisfied with the teachings of Christ about the “one true God”?

    Isn’t the true God omniscient? Why include Christ as God, when he does not know the end of the world? (Matthew 24:36)

    Have you notice how you created your answer to the issue about the “one true God”? You have to make your own interpretations of the Bible verses, as well as support those interpretations with another set of interpretations.

    Anyway, laycarmelite, I really don’t expect to get credible answers from you. It’s not your fault if you believe that way. The Catholic Church is really the source of those FALSE teachings. You are just fruit of that church. But, there is still time…just open your heart for the truth to come in. And, what a question you put there — is it impossible for God to be human? Come on, laycarmelite…just be reasonable. This is what you should think of — Did God, the Father, really became Christ Jesus? Did they already combine after Christ ascended to heaven?

    It’s okay to be imaginative and creative in Arts, but NOT in who to recognize as your God…

  199. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Whew! It seems years after I’ve finished reading your reply. Anyway, just like others here, you have misinterpreted the verses that you have presented — Word of God equals Christ (in being) AUTOMATICALLY? You said that I am being prejudicial in citing the verse John 1:1.

    My reply:

    It just shows that I am into dialogue and not monologue. You are just repeating your assertions yet you are not presenting anything substantial to your claim. You are not even answering the questions I posed. Yes indeed, as I said, you and the INC ministers are prejudicial because you have taken the interpretation of John 1:1 out of context on the whole chapter. To understand the verse you have to understand the whole chapter to get the meaning. The thing with the INC eh nangangahoy ng talata sa BIblia para maipalabas ang gusto nilang ipalabas. it would be good that you answer me point by point so that we can see how serious you are and that you are not just trolling here. You have been barking here all the way long yet you haven’t provided solid answers to the claim you are presenting and have not answering the questions we have presented.

    I would suggest you answer the questions which I posted above:

    [QUOTE]
    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    However, if that happens when Christ would say that he is also God, then, endless chain of contradictions will follow since how can you reconcile that teaching when God has been taught as spirit, with no physical state?

    My reply:

    Setting aside my belief that Christ is both God and man, I would like to ask you this question: Is it 100% impossible for God to come into flesh or become man? A simple yes or no will do.

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    You will also use Colossians 2:9-10 ” For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.” What this verse only implies is that Christ, because he has without sin, he also has reached the holiness as that of God. Those two verses DO NOT state that Christ is God.

    My reply:

    Can you provide reliable sources from exegetes that Col. 2:9-10 speaks about the sinlessness of Christ.

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    John 20:17 “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.”

    My reply:

    Why did Christ said “to My God and your God” instead of “to OUR God”??
    [END OF QUOTE]

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    You (and the Catholic Church) are the one giving your OWN INTERPRETATION of that verse FYI. Yes, of course, the Bible speaks the TRUTH, but you speak otherwise. No matter how long your answer is, it does not prove that the TRINITY is true, rather you have proven that that Catholic dogma is FALSE.

    My reply:

    FYI, mere assertions without proof doesn’t prove anything. A verse taken out of context to build a belief is a false belief. =)

    You have been talking here and there yet you haven’t proven that the Trinity is false. Answer my questions and let’s see.

    Before you go to other issues (the name of the true church, the last messenger, etc.), prove first the AUTHENTICITY of your Trinity.

    My reply:

    Hahaha. See the double standard here people. If we use the way the INC uses the Scripture to prove the authenticity of the Trinity, we Catholics are accused of ASSUMING. However, if they are the one using the same technique to prove the authenticity of the name of their church, the supposed last messenger, the Philippines is the far east they are NOT ASSUMING. Hehehe.

    Kapatid, answer my questions and let us see.

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

  200. laycarmelite says:

    Sorry, Ivan, my browers is incompatible with the posting of wordpress. This is the reason why I relpy in sections.

  201. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Imagine, laycarmelite, 3 in 1 God? The God of Israel is the Father. The God of Jesus Christ is the Father too.

    My reply:

    Misrepresentation. Our belief is in One God existing in Three Divine Persons not 3 in 1. The God of Israel is Yahweh which was revealed by Christ as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That in BINARY Mathematics 1+1+1=1.

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    WHY CREATE YOUR GOD? Are you not satisfied with the teachings of Christ about the “one true God”?

    My reply:

    We didn’t create our God? We just accepted what was presented in the Scriptures in the totality of the verses. Unlike some cult which build its belief in one verse.

    Question, since your insistent on the words “one” and “true” in John 17:3 as proof of denial of Christ’s divinity:

    1.”For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” (Jude 4, NASB).

    A.Does this mean that the Father is not our Master and Lord?

    2.”There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him,” (John 1:9-10).

    A.Here we see Jesus being called the true light. Does this mean that the Father is not the true light?

    Please answer.

  202. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Isn’t the true God omniscient? Why include Christ as God, when he does not know the end of the world? (Matthew 24:36)

    My reply:

    Simply because in Christ exists two natures: human and divine. His revelation is gradually so that people around him can understand.

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Have you notice how you created your answer to the issue about the “one true God”? You have to make your own interpretations of the Bible verses, as well as support those interpretations with another set of interpretations.

    My reply:

    Wahaha. Why don’t you answer my questions staright forward. Why are you evading. My answers given to you came from what has been handed down upon me. It is not my own interpretation. I base my answer to what has been taught to me by the Church. Also, isn’t it Manalo who gave his own interpretation that he was the “anghel sa sikatan ng araw”? Anyway you don’t need to answer that. =)

  203. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Anyway, laycarmelite, I really don’t expect to get credible answers from you. It’s not your fault if you believe that way. The Catholic Church is really the source of those FALSE teachings. You are just fruit of that church.

    My reply:

    Ad hominem reply…typical of INC. FYI, the Canonical Scriptures you are using is the FRUIT of the Catholic Church which according to you is the source of FALSE teachings. Now, why in the world you are using the Bible collected, discerned as canonical and true, and produced by the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church is false then the Bible is also False. Garbage in = garbage out. You cannot produce oranges from grape vine.

    I would suggest that you create your own canonical Scriptures.

    Food for the mind: You have been using OUR Bible now let the Catholic Church explain it to you since it was her who determined which are the TRUE Scriptures.

  204. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    And, what a question you put there — is it impossible for God to be human? Come on, laycarmelite…just be reasonable. This is what you should think of — Did God, the Father, really became Christ Jesus? Did they already combine after Christ ascended to heaven?

    My reply:

    You be reasonable, Ivan. It was you who presented the argument “how can you reconcile that teaching when God has been taught as spirit, with no physical state?” (posted on 12/23/11) which I now question: Is it impossible for God to become human? Yes or no?

    Excuse me Ivan, I have posed the question above wherein I set aside my belief in the deity of Christ (see previous post). So the question you are asking for doesn’t follow. The question I posited is framed in the light of the Old Testament revelation about God and not the New Testament one. So, I repeat.. Is it impossible for God to become incarnate?

    As a side note to the question you posed, the answer lies on the monarchy of the Father. If you can’t understand the monarchia of the Trinity, you will never understand anything. The way you posited your question shows that you really don’t understand the difference between essence and hypostases.

  205. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    It’s okay to be imaginative and creative in Arts, but NOT in who to recognize as your God…

    My reply:

    =) Hahaha. I am not the one who is imaginative because I am not the one who claimed to be the “anghel sa sikatan ng araw”. I am not the one who fasted for 3 days and locked in a small room and then suddenly claimed “Ako ang anghel sa sikatan ng araw”!!! and then later established a psedo-church wherein the founder have himself ordained by Protestant ministers in Cine Gloria and later taught that these Protestant ministers are agents of Satan. Okay…okay…fine…according to INC ministers it is just recognition and not ordination. According to INC ministers….”ang pagpapatong ng kamay sa kapatid na Felix Manalo sa tungkuling pagka Pastor at Tagapamahala ng iglesia”….is there anyone here who is so stupid that who would not understand that according to the Scriptures “the laying of Hands” or “Pagpapatong ng Kamay” is ordination. Who is more convincing the INC ministers or the Scripture itself who gave the definition?

    Ok, granting without conceding that what was happened was recognition, why in the world Felix Manalo receive an APOSTOLIC BLESSING from Guillermo Zarco who is a Protestant and an agent of Satan. What kind of blessing did FYM receive? What?

  206. ivan misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    The way you respond to the issue is not new to me. When I was a Catholic, I was also defending the faith just as how you do it now. Those verses and principles you are using are the ones you would usually hear in debates, even when I was in college. I used to meet with other students from other universities to discuss (I avoid using debate) these things about faith. There you would usually meet members of the Iglesia ni Cristo, Born Again, Oneness faith, Jehovahs Witness, and Muslims as well. What I’m trying to say is that most of your arguments are not really appropriate to discuss further in relation the issue at hand — Who is the only true God? Anyway, here are my answers.

    YOU SAID:

    Setting aside my belief that Christ is both God and man, I would like to ask you this question: Is it 100% impossible for God to come into flesh or become man? A simple yes or no will do.

    MY ANSWER:

    Why do you ask such question? What if I ask you this based on that question?

    IS IT 100% FOR GOD TO COME INTO FLESH OR BECOME A DOG? Now, you answer that with a simple yes or no. That will do.

    The point is, Laycarmelite, what we are trying to resolve here is if God did this or that…if God really has INCARNATED through Jesus Christ…if that doctrine is based from the Bible…if God has three persons (Holy Trinity)…if God, the Father has also a “God”. Likewise, if God, the Son (Catholic) also has a God, the Father…If the Holy is Spirit is also God…Now, those are the issues that should be answered in relation to the topic on who the only true God is, don’t you think?

    What we should ask, instead of your question above, is — DID GOD REALLY BECAME MAN? And, not ask — is it impossible for God to DO THIS OR THAT (what I mean is in relation to the topic)? Why should we question the WILL of the Father?

    YOU SAID:

    Can you provide reliable sources from exegetes that Col. 2:9-10 speaks about the sinlessness of Christ. (based on the issue about the deity of Christ)

    MY ANSWER:

    Don’t you agree that Christ is sinless? Don’t you agree that Christ is the only man that has reached the perfection according to God’s standards? He was obedient to God,the Father until his death on the cross. Satan even tempted Christ in the desert. He overcame that too. Isn’t it proper to say that the “FULLNESS of deity” is in him? YES, of course, the fullness of deity dwells in him. However, you should not ASSUME that such statement also means that Christ is God. Be reminded that Paul wrote that letter to the believers in Colossae to strengthen their faith and remain in Christ.

    In Colossians 1:19-20, it is written — “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” Does that statement mean Christ is God too? Of course, NOT. It just proves otherwise, because Christ had been obedient to God by doing only His WILL.

    Likewise, in John 14:9-11 it is written — “Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.”

    Does the phrase “the Father is in me” implies that Christ is also God? Come on, laycarmelite, use your you know what.

    And just to emphasize, laycarmelite, how it is important at the time of Christ and the apostles that those who believe in him BE REMINDED that they should obey all his commands, and that those commands all came from the Father…it is written in John 14:21 “Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    Christ had been always reminding the disciples and all the believers then to follow the commands or WILL of God who sent him. It is written in John 14:24 — “Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”

    Moreover, Paul, in his letter to the people in Colossae, recognized how FAITHFUL they were to Christ. In Colossians 1:3-8, it is written — “We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all God’s people — the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace. You learned it from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf, and who also told us of your love in the Spirit.”

    Have you noticed who is the God referred to by Paul in Colossians 1:3-8? Isn’t it the Father alone?

    Laycarmelite, I can give you verses after verses that would point that the TRUE God being spoken and taught in the Bible is the Father alone. And that the VERSES that the Catholic Church use to ASSUME that Christ is God, should have been NOT INTERPRETED that way, just to prove that claim.

    Let us be reminded that we should NOT ADD or SUBTRACT from the words already written in the Holy Scriptures.

    YOU SAID:

    Why did Christ said “to My God and your God” instead of “to OUR God”??

    MY ANSWER:

    Laycarmelite, what is your point? Is there a necessity to elaborate more on that statement where in Christ our Lord said “My God and your God”? That is HOW it was SAID by Christ when he referred to God, the Father? What is confusing about that?

    YOU SAID:

    Hahaha. See the double standard here people. If we use the way the INC uses the Scripture to prove the authenticity of the Trinity, we Catholics are accused of ASSUMING. However, if they are the one using the same technique to prove the authenticity of the name of their church, the supposed last messenger, the Philippines is the far east they are NOT ASSUMING. Hehehe.

    Kapatid, answer my questions and let us see.

    MY ANSWER:

    All I’m saying is — just stick to the issue on “the one true God” since that was the original issue we have been discussing on. We have not resolved that yet and you are raising other issues (complete with your INTERPRETATIONS of the Bible verses). Have I raised the issue on your worship to Mary, the mother of Christ? Actually to Catholics Mary is the “mother of God.” Have I raised the issue on purgatory? On baptism being carried out to BABIES? On graven images? On praying the Rosary?On celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25 when it does not conform to the description of the Scripture at the time he was born? Etc. Have I raised one of those to be discussed?

    It’s not appropriate to raise other issues for now. Let’s just discuss them one at a time. Doing so will just make the discussion cloudy. I believe you understand what I mean.

    NOW, Laycarmelite, you answer all the questions that I have been asking you RELATED TO THE ISSUE “WHO THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS.” I just hope your answers will be supported by ONLY what is written in the Bible, and not just another set of INTERPRETATIONS.

    Why did Christ said “…My God, and your God…” in John 20:17, if Christ is also God?

    Why did Christ CRIED out this way if he is also God? In Matthew 27:46 it is written — “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

    You have mentioned also that Christ is in the IMAGE of God. Aren’t WE also created in the IMAGE of God? (Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”) ARE WE, THEN, ALSO GOD?

    If Christ is God, considering that the true God is OMNISCIENT, why doesn’t Christ know the end of the world? (Matthew 24:36 ““But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. “)

    Why is there no teaching on “Trinity” during the time of Christ and the apostles, even during the time of the early people of God, Israel?

    Come on, Laycarmelite, what are your HONEST answers for the abovementioned questions? I just want to remind you again that you should not exceed to what is written in the Scripture.

  207. Ivan,

    So you got it! Thank you. You indeed believe in The Holy Trinity but you are ignorant of it.
    You just wrote: “I have been repeating over and over again my position about the “one true God,” that is the Father, and the worship we give to the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    FYI if you worship Jesus Christ as you said, you also worship God the Father at the same time because they are one,”Ako at ang Ama ay iisa”. You cannot worship both Jesus Christ and God the Father in separate ways. What is that kind of thing! You are under the dogma of trinity but you do not know, you cannot escape from that. Catholics make it simple for the layman through the teaching of The Holy Trinity. During those times Catholics convert pagans, barbarians, indians, cannibals, and indios with the teaching of Holy Trinity to make them understand easily. Including your forefathers yourself and you!

    “IF CHRIST JESUS IS ALSO GOD, WHY DOESN’T HE KNOW THE END OF THE WORLD?”
    – He is the Beginning and The END, The Way the Truth and the Life!, what else do you want Ivan?

    “IF THE TRINITY IS ALSO BIBLICAL, AS YOU SAY IT IS, WHERE CAN YOU FIND IN THE “BIBLE” THAT IT IS BEING TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES, OR BY THE EARLY PEOPLE OF GOD, ISRAEL?”

    It is, was, has been and always will be biblical. The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, from Genesis to The Book of Revelation, one God in the Name (not names) of the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. How come you do not know that Ivan?

    IF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS ALSO GOD, AS WELL AS MAN, TO WHOM DID HE PRAY? WHY WAS THERE A NEED FOR HIM TO PRAY TO GOD, THE FATHER.

    Jesus as a man can feel pains and sufferings. (Matthew 26:41)”The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”. Contemplate, meditate and think deeply on that phrase. That is your assignment.

    He pray to His Father, the one who sent him to be a flesh the one who is with him in the beginning, in the creation, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.” Jesus is with God and He Was God in the very beginning, Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made; but He became flesh in the form of man through Virgin Mary. There is only one God and Jesus Christ is the Son in the form of flesh. Even pagans, indios, indian tribes, barbarians, cannibals can understand that Ivan. Its getting funny here.

    WHY FOLLOW “ONLY” THE WILL OF THE FATHER?

    With this question, you remind me of World Youth Day 1995 in Manila with the theme “As the Father sent me, so am I sending you” (John 20: 21) with the theme song “Tell the world of His Love” with the lyrics “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son”(John 3:16) hehehehe

    Ivan, Catholics are not morons. We know that Jesus came to this world because of Love, “that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”(John 3:16) That is the will of the Father.

    Ivan wrote:
    IF CHRIST WAS ALSO GOD AND CO-EXISTED WITH THE FATHER IN THE BEGINNING, THEN WAS TRANSFORMED INTO A HUMAN BEING (similar to Greek mythology, don’t you think?), WHERE IS THE LOGIC IN THERE — Christ, as you insist, is God as the Father is God in the beginning, then he became man, and then has to die and be brought again to life, knowing that he is God?

    My answer:
    Knowing that he is God?
    Knowing that he is God, the King of Kings, why he was born in a crummy manger?
    Why not in air-conditioned expensive hospital? Contemplate, meditate and think deeply on that part. That is your assignment.

    Ivan wrote:
    “You don’t have to accept everything just because you were born in the Catholic faith. You have to SEEK THE TRUTH”

    Ivan, I seek and I found the truth in Catholic Faith. I should have been a Buddhist because of its harmony with life and with the law of the universe but I am looking for the physical manifestation of God and I found it only in the Catholic’s Holy Communion. “And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”(Luke 22:19)

    Now how about you Ivan? Who do you worship? Jesus Christ, God the Father or The Holy Spirit? or the one that I didn’t mention.

  208. ivan misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    In addition to the issue on the phrase “fullness of God or deity.”

    I just wanted to add this to clarify to you that it does not mean that Christ is God, when in Colossians 2:9 it said “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

    In Ephesians 3:16-19, it is written “…that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.”

    In that prayer of Paul for the Ephesians, he prayed that they might be filled with “all the fullness of God” through their faith in Christ.

  209. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    It’s really hard conversing with you. Please don’t make your own conclusions from what I have said.
    You said: “So you got it! Thank you. You indeed believe in The Holy Trinity but you are ignorant of it.”

    AGAIN, SANTIAGO VARGAS, YOUR TRINITY IS A FALSE GOD. I DO NOT AND WILL NOT BELIEVE IN YOUR TRINITY DOGMA. IT IS YOUR BELIEF, NOT MINE…MALINAW BA?

    Let’s be objective here. Just prove your belief on your Trinity.

    You are also ASSUMING that when Christ Jesus said in his prayer to God, the Father, that he and his Father are ONE; then Christ must therefore be God?

    In John 17:20-23 it is written — “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

    If you believe that the meaning of the phrase “ako at ang Ama ay IISA,” then you got it all wrong, Santiago Vargas. Christ Jesus even wanted for his believers to be ONE in God and Jesus Christ, and, “that they may be made perfect in ONE, FYI. How could that word “ONE” be implying ONENESS IN STATE OF BEING?

    Then, in John 14:19-20 — “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.” This again shows how the true believers of Christ should be ONE in TRUTH through their faith in Christ, so that Christ may also dwell in them.

    That’s how you interpret the statement in John 1:1 “…the Word was God.” So be it. But you have to reconcile that to the other verses in the Bible where in the only true God is the Father.

    You said that you have found truth in your faith. It’s your choice, Santiago Vargas. Everybody has.

  210. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    NOW, Laycarmelite, you answer all the questions that I have been asking you RELATED TO THE ISSUE “WHO THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS.” I just hope your answers will be supported by ONLY what is written in the Bible, and not just another set of INTERPRETATIONS.

    Just a small quick reply:

    And the things you have presented is not an interpretation. Jeez, this is a straw man argument. If you really really want to know who the true God is don’t build a doctrine based on one verse. I have seen your post and will reply to them point by point. For the mean time I would like to repeat this question which was left unanswered:

    Question, since your insistent on the words “one” and “true” in John 17:3 as proof of denial of Christ’s divinity:

    1.”For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” (Jude 4, NASB).

    A.Does this mean that the Father is not our Master and Lord?

    2.”There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him,” (John 1:9-10).

    A.Here we see Jesus being called the true light. Does this mean that the Father is not the true light?

    Please answer.

  211. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan,

    I am not raising other issues but rather I am showing the double standard used by INC in relation to their belief on the name of the true Church, the far east, and the last messenger. You accuse the Catholics of using their own interpretation yet you keep a blind eye to the same tactics use by your miisters when defending the doctrine. You ask us to give concrete proof on the teaching of the Trinity yet the ministers cannot even give a concrete proof on your so-called prophecies. I am pointing on the double standrad of your argumentation thus the things that you say falls flat to the face.

    I am into discussion what you argue has already been presented by INC members in their yahoogroup. So it is not new to me. Now that you are answering the question, we are getting somewhere.

  212. ivan misoto says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    My mistake. I think you are referring to John 10:30 “I and My Father are One.”

    Nevertheless, that statement do not also imply that Christ is God just as the Father. That ONENESS of Jesus Christ with God, the Father is in their works. Read further after that verse. Jesus was talking about the good works he has shown and which has come from the Father.

  213. ivan misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    Just a quick reply too, because I have a meeting.

    I hope this would clear things up. What doctrine are you saying which I base only on one doctrine? I have presented the verses that would prove that the only true God is the Father, including what His nature should be. He can never be man in nature, FYI, for the reason that many verses in the Bible speak of God, the Father as SPIRIT. Christ even said that God is SPIRIT. The verses you presented and still are presenting are just another interpretations again. How can we resolve the issue on the ONE TRUE GOD, if you keep on being SUBJECTIVE, and not OBJECTIVE. FYI, the teachings about the ONE TRUE GOD is so clear if you just open your eyes to the TRUTH that has already been revealed by Christ.

    DO NOT INTERPRET ON YOUR OWN.

    What are you trying to point out in your last comment? Don’t expect me to answer an ESSAY type questions. Come on, Laycarmelite, be objective.

    For now, just answer my last comment FOR YOU. Those are the REAL QUESTIONS. If you have answers for them. Let it be…Bring it on…Enough of those ESSAYS. I don’t have that time. My vacation will last just a couple of days more.

  214. ivan misoto says:

    Laycarmelite,

    Okay, if you want it that way, so be it. You seem confused about the terms “one” and “true” (God). So take those two words out. OUT LET THEM BE. Let’s just discuss the GOD we are supposed to recognize, that is the GOD in heaven. That is, if we are referring to that God in heaven…do we have a common ground there?

    My stand is the same. The God that is taught by Christ and by the apostles is the Father alone. The God of Israel is the Father. Okay? The same verses that I presented to show its authenticity remain. The Trinity can never be found in the Bible. That dogma was not taught by Christ nor the apostles.

    Come on, Laycarmelite, speak up. JUST BE OBJECTIVE. Answer those questions from my last post, if you can.

  215. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    Why do you ask such question? What if I ask you this based on that question?

    IS IT 100% FOR GOD TO COME INTO FLESH OR BECOME A DOG? Now, you answer that with a simple yes or no. That will do.

    My reply:

    I am asking the question because YOUR ASSUMED INTERPRETATION of John 4:24 is wrong because you have boxed God into your own limited understanding. To answer your question bluntly, my answer is YES.

    Now its your turn to answer my question before I post my replies to you point by point.

    IS IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO BECOME MAN?

    This is not about questioning the will of God.

  216. Ivan wrote:
    If you believe that the meaning of the phrase “ako at ang Ama ay IISA,” then you got it all wrong, Santiago Vargas. Christ Jesus even wanted for his believers to be ONE in God and Jesus Christ, and, “that they may be made perfect in ONE, FYI. How could that word “ONE” be implying ONENESS IN STATE OF BEING?

    – That is funny. Look carefully what you have wrote Ivan “Christ Jesus even wanted for his believers to be ONE in God and Jesus Christ”

    I will prove to you, right in your face that you believe in Trinity but ignorant of it. As my favorite Colombian Author Gabriel Garcia Marquez wrote in one of his novels “The world was so recent that many things lacked names, and in order to indicate them it was necessary to point.”
    You are pointing the “One God in Three Persons” or the “One God in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit” or the “Equality of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit” in your statement and that is called the Holy Trinity FYI. I remember the “Pasugo Vs Pasugo”, anyway, look carefully Ivan, you wrote “Christ Jesus even wanted for his believers to be ONE in God and Jesus Christ” — to be ONE in who? in God? AND in Jesus Christ too? Why Jesus Christ too where they (the believers as you said) can be one in True God? Why do the believers need to be one in Jesus Christ too? for what purpose? Who is Jesus Christ? Is He equal to God to be the reason why believes need to be one with Him too?

    See? You are equating God the Father and Jesus Christ but you do not believe in The Holy Trinity. FYI “Trinity” is not the name of God. Read carefully, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19″), That is the Name of one God.
    You are a vivid homology of the Pasugo Vs Pasugo, contradicting yourself with yourself. You do not know that Jesus always has been and always will be equal with the Father; He is with him and He was Him in the very beginning . They are one in deed and one God being, it just happens that Jesus was made in the form of flesh but you cannot separate them in worship. If you give two chocolate bars to Jesus Christ then you have given two chocolates bars to the Father. “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”. (John 14:9) Jesus might say “If you give two chocolates to me you have given two chocolates to the father”

    Ivan also wrote:
    “That ONENESS of Jesus Christ with God, the Father is in their works.”
    – True, Catholics does not contradict with this because Jesus and the Father are the same one God. Your statement is true but insignificant. Jesus Christ and God The Father are one in their works but not in “works” only. “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”. (John 14:9) Jesus is talking about the visual physical presence of the Father in his body made of flesh and blood that does not rot and will never be.
    Jesus is an avatar of God the Father in the form of human Flesh. He walks with the eye of the Father in Him, you cannot separate both.

  217. laycarmelite says:

    Ivan Misoto wrote:

    You seem confused about the terms “one” and “true” (God). So take those two words out. OUT LET THEM BE. Let’s just discuss the GOD we are supposed to recognize, that is the GOD in heaven. That is, if we are referring to that God in heaven…do we have a common ground there?

    My reply:

    You cited John 17:3 as a proof text to deny the Trinity and claim that Jesus Christ is not God. If Jesus were God, then He would not have called the Father, “the only true God.” If the Father is the only true God, then it must require that Jesus cannot be God.

    It is not proper to make a theological doctrine out of one verse. Of this the INC are guilty. Nevertheless, they do tend to take one or two verses on a subject and use them to interpret all the others. Instead of getting a balanced position, they arrive at an interpretation that is in agreement with their theological position. This is called “proof-texting” and is something the INC do frequently.

    Your interpretation of John 17:3 is flawed and is not based on the totality of the Scriptural revelations. We have a common ground about God, we have a disagreement on the inner reality of the Godhead.

  218. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Just to make sure we are discussing the same thing, below is the definition of the Holy Trinity according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    The dogma of the Holy Trinity

    253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.”84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”85

    254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary.”86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.”87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.”88 The divine Unity is Triune.

    255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: “In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.”89 Indeed “everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship.”90 “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.”91

    256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called “the Theologian”, entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

    Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .92

  219. ivan misoto says:

    To Mr. Quirino M. Sugon Jr.:

    Thank you very much, Sir, for explaining well the Trinity dogma and for those references that you mentioned.

    And, to other Catholic defenders here as well, thank you for your time.

    God bless to all!

    Happy New Year!

  220. plcarbonell says:

    Many who are commenting here against the article are too ignorant about the difference of Doctrine from human weakness, Dogma from discipline, and so on.

    I am simply Glad I am Catholic. Among those who are trying to question the article attached here, none of them were able to provide basis of their being apostolic and universal.

    Better react once you have sufficient and honest proof to believe INC is true. If not, why follow that church?

    God bless His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

  221. Princess says:

    @ plcarbonell and Qurinino.

    (please excuse any wrong grammar as I am only 19 years old and only a college student)

    Me, even though I am just an ordinary member I could say that INC is the true church.

    In regards with your argument…
    ” A true church of Christ has four marks: one, holy, Catholic, apostolic (c.f. Catechism of the Catholic Church Art. 811 ). If one of this does not hold, then the Iglesia ni Cristo is a false church of Christ. ”

    Your basis is Catholicism and the poster SEEKER already mentioned that your (criteria) BASIS for the True Church is the Catechism. (which is biased) We INC members don’t believe Catechism! Where does it mention in the Bible that true church should be Catholic? The word “catholic” is not even in the Bible…

    But since this is your blog.. I will play with your rules ok!

    1. ONE – As you have mentioned this is the only criteria INC passed. Yes we are one!
    2. HOLY – .INC teaches that we INC members are holy …

    a. again your basis for HOLY PERSONS are the Catholic Canonization of Saints. This is biased again. So people who are not canonized as saints by the pope and/ or not popular are not holy… :(
    b. INC uses the Bible in teaching that the Iglesia ni Cristo/Church of Christ is holy because we are washed of our sins when we were baptized (Acts2:38) and Christ already paid for our sins (purchased us with his blood) (Acts 20:28 LAMSA)

    3. Catholic or (Universal) –

    a. INC is already a Global Church and by the time of our Centennial (100th year anniversary) the numbers of INC members will be even doubled when you first post this post…

    b. Yes the Church of Christ (Iglesia ni Cristo) is universal also in TIME (Christian Era) In the First Century there is the Church of Christ lead by the Apostles and in these last days there is also the Church of Christ in which I am a member. (Romans 16:16) See?! INC teaches that we are part of the INC in the first century. (That is why we have the same name) There are many verses in the Bible that supports this.. but I am not a minister so you should just read the PASUGO or follow seekers advice on speaking with a minister to aid you in your research.

    4. Apostolic – Yes we are, in fact even Apostle Peter recognized us as part of the Church of Christ (Acts 2:39 Rieu). Those from distant times and places… that are going to be called… Again, I can’t explain this fully to you. You should do your own research.

    so even ACCORDING to the Bias RULES of your Catechism… INC is a True Church! ^^

    Next time we should use the TRUE BASIS for the TRUE CRITERIA of a TRUE CHURCH… THE BIBLE! ^^.
    ..

  222. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Princess,

    Christ only founded one Church, not two, and that is the Church which existed in the First Century. Manalo founded the Iglesia ni Cristo in 1914. So Christ founded his Church 1900 years before Manalo founded INC. Manalo never met any of the apostles and Peter, but the bishops of the Catholic Church in the First Century knew the apostles and heard them preach. The Apostles founded Churches in every place they go, and the Catholic bishops succeeded them. Will you believe the testimony of Manalo who never saw the apostles or St. Ignatius of Antioch who was appointed by Peter or St. Polycarp of Smyrna who is a disciple of John the Apostle or St. Clement who succeeded St. Peter as Bishop of Rome. We Catholics call them the apostolic fathers because they were the disciples of the apostles. Manalo was never an apostolic father because he never met the apostles.

    There is only one simple test whether your Church is apostolic or not: Does your church have the bones of the apostles as evidence that your Church was really founded by the apostles? INC does not have the bones of the Apostles, but the Catholic Church has. The bones of St. Peter, for example, is in his tomb beneath St. Peter’s Basilica in Vatican where the Pope says mass; on the other hand, the bones of St. Paul are buried in the Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls. The Bible did not say anything how Sts. Peter and Paul died and Manalo, who base everything from the Bible, will never know how they died. But we Catholics know them and how they died and where they are buried. This is because the Catholic Church, not the Church founded by Manalo, is the true Church of the Apostles.

  223. ivan says:

    Mr. Sugon:

    FYI, the true disciples of the apostles (and especially of Christ) follow the true doctrine of God. Much has been already discussed here about the teachings upheld by the Iglesia ni Cristo. The Bible testifies that INC is the true Church of Christ.

    HOW?

    Think about the following questions…

    Who is the God recognized by the INC? And, who is that God “formulated” by the Catholic Church?

    I believe you know very well the answers to those questions…

    In that doctrine alone, we can say that the Catholic Church does not bear the original teachings of Christ and of the apostles. It just shows and proves that after the death of the last apostle, apostasy already had taken place.

    FYI, the ONLY TRUE GOD recognized and preached by Christ Jesus and the apostles was no other than the FATHER alone. Moreover, Trinity was never preached by Christ nor the apostles…

  224. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Ivan,

    Let us talk about the apostasy teaching of INC. It is not very clear to me. Which of these points is true:

    1. The whole Church apostasized after the death of the last apostle.
    2. Only some members of the Church apostasized after the death of the last apostle.

  225. Ground says:

    If the INC is really the true church, can you gave us a list of all your church leaders that connects to Christ? That is from Jesus down to Manalo? So that people will know that Jesus do really gave the authority to lead, feed and tend His Sheeps.

  226. ivan says:

    Mr. Sugon:

    No.1 is the true one.

    The proof is already obvious…

    The Catholic Church (which claims inheritance of apostolic authority) today follows the teachings and traditions which were only introduced after the death of the last apostle including Baptism through SPRINKLING, purgatory, worship of Mary and the “TRINITY”. Apparently, those teachings contradict the TRUE teachings of Christ and the apostles simply because they were not preached by Christ nor the apostles.

  227. ivan says:

    Mr. Sugon:

    Just asking…

    Why retain or revive only this post?

    Why not revive your other post and give it a new title also? That post, for the sake of those who will be visiting this one, is a more detailed continuation/discussion of the argument that started from this post.

    Have you become that biased now? Why not show the world that post which contains the continuation of the argument about the TRUTH on the ONE TRUE GOD?…

  228. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Ivan,

    This post is just here. It is revived whenever someone comments on it. The other posts are just there somewhere which can be found in Google.

  229. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Ivan,

    Thank you for saying that statement 1 is true:

    1. The whole Church apostasized after the death of the last apostle

    What does this statement imply?

    a. The Gates of Hell prevailed against the Church
    b. The Gates of Hell did not prevail against the Church

  230. ivan says:

    Mr. Sugon:

    FYI, we have already tackled that issue regarding that passage in the Bible saying the Gates of Hell or Hades not prevailing against the Church…

    That issue is recorded in your other post “Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) Logo: Christian or Masonic symbol.”

    https://monkshobbit.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/iglesia-ni-cristo-inc-logo-christian-or-masonic-symbol/

    I posted a reply on March 11, 2012. Here it is again:

    YOU WROTE:

    Regarding your comment of 2012/03/02 at 1:10 pm:

    Mt 16:18 was quoted not so much for the Trinity but for the promise of Christ that the Church that He will found on Peter will not be overcome by error. So if INC claims that there was apostasy in the Church after the death of the last apostle, then Christ is a liar, a false messiah who makes false promises. As God spoke in Deuteronomy through Moses:

    21Should you say to yourselves, “How can we recognize that a word is one the LORD has not spoken?”, 22if a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD but the word does not come true, it is a word the LORD did not speak. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not fear him. (Dt 18:21-21)

    But if the opposite is true and the Church founded by Christ on Peter never apostasized, though some of its members left the sheepfold, then the promise of Christ remains true, and Manalo is a false prophet who deceived many.

    MY COMMENT:

    Of course, the verse Matthew 16:18 is not about the Trinity. As I have said (based from the teachings of the Iglesia ni Cristo) that it refers to God’s plan of salvation for those who are/were truly baptized into Christ Jesus. Please read again my March 2, 2012 comment on this issue.

    Here it is again:

    You are bearing a WRONG INTERPRETATION of Matthew 16:18, that is why. That verse states — “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”

    ALSO, you are JUST ASSUMING that the verses you cited speak about a TRIUNE God (Trinity) when, in fact, the Lord Jesus Christ himself preaches who the true God is. That ONE TRUE GOD is no other than the Father alone (John 17:3, John 20:17, Mt 27:46, Mark 12:32). No one else. (Deuteronomy 4:39, Malachi 2:10, 1Cor 8;6, Eph 4:4-6)

    Furthermore, that verse (Mt 16:18), FYI, is all about God’s plan of salvation for man. He sent the Lord Jesus Christ for man to know and understand His laws and commandments. Therefore, for those who listen to his teachings and believe in God who sent him will receive ETERNAL LIFE comes the Day of Judgement.

    John 5:24 — “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

    John 17:3 — And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    NOW, WHO are those who TRULY listen to Christ (THOSE WHO HEAR HIS VOICE)?

    This is written in John 10:27-28 — 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

    WHERE are those sheep (of Christ) found?

    In John 10:16, this we can read — And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

    And, in Acts 20:28 (Lamsa version) — Take heed therefore to yourselves and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, to feed the church of Christ which he has purchased with his blood.

    Mr. Sugon, that line “and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” in Mt 16:18 speaks about the flock of Christ or the members of his TRUE church (Church of Christ or Iglesia ni Cristo). THEY ARE THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN TRULY BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST JESUS.

    Romans 6:3-11 –

    3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    THUS, CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF HIS BODY (Church of Christ or Iglesia ni Cristo)

    In Ephesians 5:23, this is stated –

    For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

    And, Colossians 1:18 –

    And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    NOW, the summary of God’s plan:

    In 1 Cor 15:28 this is written– Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

    ————–

    FYI, Mr. Sugon, do not mislead people. The verses I was referring to which you WERE ASSUMING that they speak about the Trinity or your triune God were those that you numbered 1 up to 3 (Ascension of Jesus, etc.)

    ALSO, I have to reiterate this again. You have MISINTERPRETED Mt. 16:18 by saying that it is about the church being not overcome by error and that the apostasy did not happen. Instead, that verse refers to the TRUE Church of Christ being not overcome by DEATH since its members who have been TRULY baptized in Christ shall also live with him who was resurrected by God from death (Rom 6:3-11).

    Furthermore, how can you say that the Catholic Church does not bear erroneous teachings? The belief on the Trinity dogma alone is the proof of the apostasy FYI.

  231. Dro Tecson says:

    hi everyone!

    The article said :” 5. Thus, the Iglesia ni Cristo posesses only one mark of the true Church of Christ: it is one, ……”

    Please allow me to split some hairs here. The INC may be united among themselves (in voting, attacking, deceiving, praying, etc), but that is all they have – superficial UNIFORMITY, which to me does not really give so much weight for them to be considered as possessing the ONE mark of the true Church. For one, the INC stands outside the ONEness of the true Church. Their existence actually is a WOUND to the whole BODY of Christ, aimed at destroying Church unity. Also their EXCLUSIVE character sets them apart from the rest of Christendom, even as they over-emphasized this separation, and therefore ONENESS with the rest of believers is alien to their mindset. On the other hand, the INCLUSIVE character of the Catholic Church is in sync with the prayer of Jesus, ” that all may be ONE.” This is the prayer that drives the unity, catholicity, holiness, and apostolicity of the Church, so that the so called MARKS of the Church is essentially inseparable. The INC, having failed in the other MARKS, has failed them ALL. In this sense threfore the INC is not ONE.

  232. Dro Tecson says:

    Ivan said:
    ‘You {{Mr Sugon} “have MISINTERPRETED Mt. 16:18 by saying that it is about the church being not overcome by error and that the apostasy did not happen.the ”

    Dro said:
    Of course Ivan. Mr Sugon is correct. Practically the whole of Christendom since the beginning shared that interpretation. Naturally, your group (INC) does not accept this because you stand outside the border of Christianity. Total apostasy is a new man-made doctrine that you embraced in order to justify your existence as a “Church.”. It was never taught by the earliest Christian witnesses. If you don’t believe it, well, can you cite who among the early Church Fathers who explicitly taught the lie of Total Apostasy? Can you? I dont think you can! You may try all your might, but you simply can’t. There was none!

    Ivan said:
    “Instead, that verse refers to the TRUE Church of Christ being not overcome by DEATH since its members who have been TRULY baptized in Christ shall also live with him who was resurrected by God from death (Rom 6:3-11).”

    Dro said:
    Of course Ivan. The Church can NEVER be overcome by DEATH. That’s one correct interpretation of the verse. But your reasoning leaves a WIDE CHASM in your understanding. Because you missed the very obvious!!The apostles died. Their immediate successors, the bishops, also died, and so on. In fact, all the members of the Church who have lived through until the 1800’s have died (obvious ba?). But the Church lived. And still living. And will continue to live until the end of time! Why? Because the church can never be overcome by death!!!

    And one more thing. An APOSTATE church is a church SEPARATED from Christ! And what did Jesus say about those who are separated him?They can do nothing! Right! Well, as faith without works is DEAD, we may also say that a church apart from Christ is also DEAD. So, an APOSTATE church is a DEAD church. Obvious din ba? And since you accepted that death will never overcome the church, it follows that the church will never become an apostate church. Right? Of course! Therefore, Total Apostasy is Total Fallacy!

  233. ivan says:

    Dro Tecson:

    First of all, I got your point…denying the occurrence of the GREAT APOSTASY…Been there. I also had that line of thinking when I was a Catholic. I also used to have this graph showing the lineage of the CHURCH FATHERS starting from “St. Peter”. It was an old publication that I used to defend my Catholic faith then.

    BUT, the TRUTH always prevails.

    Just a piece of advice…Read again very carefully my post about the CHURCH (Mt 16:18)…the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST…being not overcome by death. I’m afraid you didnot quite get it.

    Very true… “an APOSTATE church is a church SEPARATED from Christ!” You are also VERY CORRECT in saying “an APOSTATE church is a DEAD church.”

    That DEAD church which is separated from Christ, by the way, refers to the FALSE CHURCH which denies the TRUTH about Christ. And which church or “churches” deny the TRUTH in Christ? Of course, those that possess FALSE teachings. Now, which church or churches believe that the TRUE GOD is a TRIUNE one (the TRINITY)? Is that according to Christ? Christ never revealed himself as God or a part of a “GODHEAD”. Where did that doctrine come from? Of course, that one is very very MAN-MADE…FORMULATED actually…

    Dro Tecson, the TOTAL FALLACY is the Trinity doctrine of the Catholic Church.

    Please read over and over again the whole of John 8. Try to understand very carefully WHO that GOD and FATHER was from whom Christ came from and the one who sent him. Christ also told the Jews who were those who belong to the God (Father) and those who were not. Contemplate on verses 42-47.

  234. Dro Tecson says:

    Ivan said:
    “Furthermore, how can you say that the Catholic Church does not bear erroneous teachings? The belief on the Trinity dogma alone is the proof of the apostasy FYI.

    Dro said:
    That’s a convoluted way of thinking Ivan. It is based on the false uncritical assumption that the Trinity is a false doctrine. However. You cannot base your claims on false assumptions and make correct conclusions. Just because one believes there’s a man Mars does not mean that there is indeed a man on Mars. The belief on the Trinity is actually a proof that the Church has the a divinely mandated AUTHORITY to interpret and to teach the Word of God. No one can question that fact.

  235. Dro Tecson says:

    [IVAN’S COMMENT IN QUOTES, MINE ALL CAPS]:

    “First of all, i got your point…denying the occurrence of the GREAT APOSTASY…”

    SORRY IVAN BUT I DOUBT YOU REALLY GOT MY POINT. I DID NOT SPEAK ABOUT A “GREAT APOSTASY” BUT “TOTAL APOSTASY.” PRECISELY BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT YOU ARE ACCUSING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OF!!.OF COURSE “A GREAT APOSTASY” OCCURRED WHEN FELIX MANALO DENIED THE DIVINITY OF JESUS AND THEN ACCUSED THE TRUE CHURCH OF BETRAYING THE LORD BY HIS MAN-MADE DOCTRINE OF “TOTAL APOSTASY ”

    “Been there. I also had that line of thinking when I was a Catholic. I also used to have this graph showing the lineage of the CHURCH FATHERS starting from “St. Peter”. It was an old publication that I used to defend my Catholic faith then.”

    SO WHERE IN THAT PUBLICATION IS THE EVIDENCE THAT SHOWED THAT THE CHURCH FATHERS TAUGHT TOTAL APOSTASY? TELL US PLEASE. IF IT DID NOT, THEN DON’T BOTHER.

    “But the TRUTH always prevails.”

    YES,THE TRUTH ABOUT A GREAT APOSTASY OF FELIX MANALO IS AN ESTABLISHED FACT.

    “Just a piece of advice…Read again very carefully my post about the CHURCH (Mt 16:18)…the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST…being not overcome by death. I’m afraid you didnot quite get it.”

    THANKS FOR THE ADVICE..AND FOR YOUR COMFORT I DID READ YOUR POST CAREFULLY. AND I FOUND NOTHING NEW TO YOUR ARGUMENT. I AGREE TO ALL THE VERSES THAT YOU QUOTED, BUT UNFORTUNATELY THEY DIDN’T TIE UP TO ESTABLISH YOUR CLAIM OF TOTAL APOSTASY. OF COURSE YOU CITED THEM PRIMARILY TO ASSERT THAT THE CHURCH WILL NOT BE OVERCOME BY DEATH, BUT YOU BADLY MISSED THE FACT THAT THEY REFER MOST APPROPRIATELY TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING WAS THE TRUE “IGLESIA NI CRISTO” AS YOUR PASUGO ITSELF CLAIMED. .

    “Very true… “an APOSTATE church is a church SEPARATED from Christ!” You are also VERY CORRECT in saying “an APOSTATE church is a DEAD church.”

    THANKS FOR ACCEPTING THAT TRUTH. IT MEANT THAT THE INC IS REALLY CONFUSED. BECAUSE YOU MAINTAINED THAT THE TRUE CHURCH, WHICH WILL NEVER BE OVERCOME BY DEATH, EVENTUALLY DIED. THAT’S WHAT TOTAL APOSTASY IS ALL ABOUT! YOU BELIEVED IN A CONTRADICTION!!!!

    “That DEAD church which is separated from Christ, by the way, refers to the FALSE CHURCH which denies the TRUTH about Christ.”

    AGAIN, YOU JUST ACCENTUATED THE CONFUSION OF THE INC. THE TRUE CHURCH, WHICH WILL NEVER BE OVERCOME BY DEATH, WILL NEVER BECOME A DEAD CHURCH, SO THAT THERE IS NO POINT IN SPEAKING ABOUT IT AS A FALSE CHURCH IN THE FIRST PLACE!

    ” And which church or “churches” deny the TRUTH in Christ? Of course, those that possess FALSE teachings.”

    THE FALSE CHURCH IS THE ONE THAT SEPARATE ITSELF FROM THE TRUE CHURCH. “THEY WENT AWAY FROM US” AS PAUL SAYS. THAT’S WHAT AIRUS DID, WHEN HE DENIED THE DIVINITY OF JESUS, AND WAS EVENTUALLY CONDEMNED AS A HERETIC BY THE TRUE CHURCH -THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. FELIX MANALO JUST FOLLOWED THE LEAD OR ARIUS, DOWN INTO THE BIN OF WHAT YOU CALLED THE FALSE CHURCH. SO WHICH IS THE FALSE CHURCH? THE INC OF COURSE.

    “Now, which church or churches believe that the TRUE GOD is a TRIUNE one (the TRINITY)?”

    THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND THE REST OF CHRISTENDOM.

    “Is that according to Christ?”

    YES!

    “Christ never revealed himself as God or a part of a “GODHEAD”.”

    HE DID. AND WE CAN PROVE THAT TO YOU!

    “Where did that doctrine come from? ”

    FROM JESUS HIMSELF

    “Of course, that one is very very MAN-MADE…FORMULATED actually…”

    OF COURSE THE CHURCH MERELY ARTICULATED THE TRUTH CONTAINED IN THE WORD OF GOD, IN ACCORDANCE WITH HER DIVINELY MANDATED AUTHORITY TO TEACH AND PREACH THE WORD OF GOD.

    “Dro Tecson, the TOTAL FALLACY is the Trinity doctrine of the Catholic Church.”

    THANKS FOR YOUR FALSE OPINION

    “Please read over and over again the whole of John 8. Try to understand very carefully WHO that GOD and FATHER was from whom Christ came from and the one who sent him. Christ also told the Jews who were those who belong to the God (Father) and those who were not. Contemplate on verses 42-47.”

    YES I DID. A LONG TIME AGO. THE DIVINITY OF JESUS WAS NOT DENIED AND TOTAL APOSTASY ARE NOT IMPLIED IN THOSE VERSES.

  236. ivan says:

    Dro Tecson:

    You said:

    “The belief on the Trinity is actually a proof that the Church has the a divinely mandated AUTHORITY to interpret and to teach the Word of God. No one can question that fact.”

    My comment:

    Now where did that AUTHORITY come from???

    Any church can claim that AUTHORITY you are talking about. BUT, the TRUTH can be examined by anyone, a member or not. Even the most extreme so called Christian religious organization can assert that they are the AUTHORITY on interpreting the words of God. You know what I mean…BUT, regarding the TRINITY, if you can just review all the discussions that transpired in this post, you would see and understand the FALLACY in that doctrine. How can you say now that the Catholic church is that SAME Church established by Christ (Mt.16:18) if you do not know the ONE TRUE GOD you are suppose to serve??? Think about it…

    ALSO, remember Christ WAS SENT BY GOD…He did not come on his own… Christ Jesus has a God and Father who is also revealed to his true disciples, to the Church (the TRUE ONE). Just as Christ overcame DEATH, so does his CHURCH when that time comes. That is the relation of Christ to his church…He is the savior of his body. That is why by becoming his body, death is no more. I believe you understand the second death I’m talking about…

    AGAIN, Christ never preached that he was God. Then why believe otherwise? How can you even say that you are a “Christian” or you belong to his church, when you can’t even understand and obey the MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT of all??? (Mark 12:28-34…John 17:1-3, John 20:17)

  237. Dro tecson says:

    I said:
    “The belief on the Trinity is actually a proof that the Church has the a divinely mandated AUTHORITY to interpret and to teach the Word of God. No one can question that fact.”

    Ivan asked:

    “Now where did that AUTHORITY come from???”

    My reply:

    Let me ask you Ivan: when Jesus commanded his apostles to GO…MAKE DISCIPLES….BAPTIZE..TEACH…(Mat 28:18-19), did He give them the AUTHORITY to go, make disciples, baptize, and teach? Yes or No? When Jesus spoke these words, the INC of Manalo was not even there! Where you there? Jesus couldn’t have said those words and make them applicable only after 1914 years (July 27, 1914, to be axact). That’s totally absurd!!!I Interestingly, your Pasugo itself asserted that the Catholic Church was the true Church from the beginning, and therefore you cannot escape from the fact that when Jesus gave his authority, it was the Catholic Church who received it! No one else. And definitely not the INC. !!!

    Ivan said:

    “Any church can claim that AUTHORITY you are talking about.”

    My Reply:

    Yes, that’s why the INC is also claiming to have this authority! But, just like all the other claimants, that is all you have: A CLAIM. But we had the FACT. And it’s from the beginning. The Pasugo itself said so.

    Ivan said:
    ” BUT, the TRUTH can be examined by anyone, a member or not. Even the most extreme so called Christian religious organization can assert that they are the AUTHORITY on interpreting the words of God.”

    My reply:

    Well, let me say it nicely that this statement of yours is A BIG DISASTER!! Don’t you ever wonder that those who attacked the Catholic Church ended up attacking each other, constantly splitting into factions and multiplying like bacteria???. Each pastor becomes his own Pope. Those who disagreed simply formed their own group. That’s what Manalo did. That’s what Nicolas Perez did. That’s what Eli Soriano did. Only God knows who’s next in line! But their common denominator is that they all agreed with what you said, that each one can interpret the words of God. But the bible said otherwise! Listen:

    “For know this first of all, that there is no prophesy of scripture that is a matter of PERSONAL INTERPRETATION, for no prophesy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the Holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God” ((2 Peter 1:20).

    The Eunoch (Acts 8:30-31) initially thought like you Ivan as he tried to understand scriptures by his own personal interpretation. But then he eventually realized that he needed a teacher! And not just a teacher, but a teacher with AUTHORITY! And that’s PHILLIP. And not FELIX!!!

    To be continued….

  238. Dro tecson says:

    IVAN’S WORDS IN QUOTES, MINE ALL CAPS

    “BUT, regarding the TRINITY, if you can just review all the discussions that transpired in this post, you would see and understand the FALLACY in that doctrine.”

    FIRST OF ALL, LET ME REMIND YOU IVAN THAT IT WAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT GAVE YOU THE BIBLE! NO CATHOLIC CHURCH, NO BIBLE. LET’S MAKE THAT CLEAR. AND THE CHURCH, BY THE AUTHORITY GIVEN TO HER BY JESUS, HAS PROCLAIMED THE TRINITY AS A TRUTH CONTAINED IN THE SACRED SCRIPTURES. THIS SAME CHURCH HAS ALSO DECLARED THAT TO DENY THE DIVINITY OF JESUS AND TO REDUCE HIM TO A MERE HUMAN BEING IS CONTRARY TO THE BIBLE! THE REAL FALLACY IS THE DOCTRINE OF ARIUS, WHICH WAS JUNKED BY THE CHURCH, BUT PICKED UP BY A FALSE PROPHET NAMED FELIX MANALO!

    “” How can you say now that the Catholic church is that SAME Church established by Christ (Mt.16:18) if you do not know the ONE TRUE GOD you are suppose to serve??? Think about it…”

    YOUR PASUGO CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION. HERE IT IS:

    Pasugo, Abril 1966, p. 46:
    “Ang Iglesia Katolika na sa pasimula ay siyang Iglesia ni Cristo.”

    THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, FROM THE BEGINNING, IS THE “IGLESYA NI CRISTO”. NOW, THAT’S WORTH PONDERING, ISN’T IT IVAN?

    “again, Christ never preached that he was God. Then why believe otherwise?”

    REALLY? TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS: 1.) WHY WAS HE KILLED BY THE JEWS? 2.) WHAT WAS HIS CRIME? I HOPE YOU CAN GIVE US GOOD ANSWERS!

    ” How can you even say that you are a “Christian” or you belong to his church, when you can’t even understand and obey the MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT of all??? (Mark 12:28-34…John 17:1-3, John 20:17)”

    HEY, WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT “UNDERSTANDING” AND “OBEDIENCE” ARE THE MAIN QUALIFICATIONS FOR BEING A CHRISTIAN? CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.

    THE MORE SERIOUS QUESTION RATHER IS THIS: HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN WHEN YOU DENY THE LORD WHO IS THE AUTHOR OF LIFE, AND THE WISDOM OF GOD, AND THEN ACCUSED HIS BRIDE THE CHURCH OF TOTALLY BETRAYING HIM? HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN WHEN YOU “MURDER” THE TRUE CHURCH BY INSISTING THAT SHE DIED BY WAY OF TOTAL APOSTASY?

  239. ivan says:

    Dro Tecson:

    First of all, you are taking words out of their context OBVIOUSLY. That’s the method of the great deceiver. The Catholic Church can never be that SAME 1ST CENTURY CHURCH OF CHRIST (the TRUE Church of Christ) for the OBVIOUS reason that it FAILED to remain loyal to Christ’s teachings.

    WHY are you are eluding the issue that Christ NEVER even recognized and preached that he was God or part of your so called GODHEAD? You know what? Instead of telling more of your delusions and false assumptions, why not comment on that first?

    DID CHRIST SAY AND PREACH THE TRINITY???

    DID HE RECOGNIZE HIMSELF AS GOD BESIDES THE FATHER???

    DIDNT HE REVEAL THE ONE TRUE GOD???

    FYI, the Catholic Church, because of FORMULATING the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, CAN NEVER BE TRUE. Christ preached who he was (John 8) and who the ONE TRUE GOD was as well (John 17:3).

    Your mere assertions are nothing if you cannot support them with the testimonies in the Bible…

    And you even boast that the Bible was given by the Catholic… That is a very very amusing point to consider Dro Tecson. You may say that the Bible was compiled by the Catholic…BUT, BUT, BUT, the AUTHOR is still GOD Himself. Be reminded that not all who knows the Scripture are of God…You know very well that passage in the Bible when Satan tried to tempt Christ in the desert. Didnt Satan know the Scripture? Of course he knows it very well. He even cited the Scripture in tempting Christ (Luke 4:9-12). Just like all false prophets, he twists the words of God for the purpose of MISLEADING and DECEIVING people.

    Another thing… Of course, people need a leader, a teacher, a messenger from God to teach them His words…His commandments. DEFINITELY, you can never find that in the Catholic Church. Bear in mind that the minister or ministers appointed by God possess His DOCTRINE. The RCC are just full of MISINTERPRETATIONS AND FALSE ASSUMPTIONS. Contemplate again on John 8:42-47. By the way, have you already read the whole of John 8? Read that chapter please and take note who Christ revealed as God and Father who sent him.

    NOW, dro Tecson, who DENIES God, and Christ Jesus as well??? Those who believe in the Trinity or not? Of course, you can lie to yourself and to others. BUT, you can never lie to God.

    ——–

    You said:

    “LET’S MAKE THAT CLEAR. AND THE CHURCH, BY THE AUTHORITY GIVEN TO HER BY JESUS, HAS PROCLAIMED THE TRINITY AS A TRUTH CONTAINED IN THE SACRED SCRIPTURES.”

    My comment:

    MERE ASSERTIONS…

    TRINITY in the Bible???

    WHERE???

    The FACT is the word Trinity and the idea of it came from Tertullian… (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian)

    AND, when was the doctrine of Trinity established??? It was only in 325 A.D., by the first Council of Nicaea, FYI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity).

    That DELUDED Trinitarian doctrine did not come from Christ nor from the apostles!!! Therefore, if it’s not from Christ nor from God, you know now where that came from… Dro Tecson, please read John 8:42-47 for your sake…

    ———-

    You even said:

    “REALLY? TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS: 1.) WHY WAS HE KILLED BY THE JEWS? 2.) WHAT WAS HIS CRIME? I HOPE YOU CAN GIVE US GOOD ANSWERS!”

    Reply:

    You answer and explain those arguments if you can… I bet you will just repeat all those MISINTERPRETATIONS and FALSE ASSUMPTIONS of the RCC that were already contended in this post.

    ——–

    You even challenge me with this:

    You said: “HEY, WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT “UNDERSTANDING” AND “OBEDIENCE” ARE THE MAIN QUALIFICATIONS FOR BEING A CHRISTIAN? CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.”

    Comment:

    Now WHAT IS A TRUE CHRISTIAN THEN, dro Tecson???

    ———

    What is your MORE SERIOUS QUESTION again, Dro Tecson??? Have you really contemplated on that? Read and contemplate over and over again on John 8:42-47… and be enlightened…

  240. Wants to be Anonymous says:

    Monk’s hobbit/owner/moderator/qmsj,

    I think you should moderate about… several posts ago… just thinking…

  241. Dro tecson says:

    IVAN’S COMMENT IN QUOTES, MINE ALL CAPS:

    “First of all, you are taking words out of their context OBVIOUSLY. That’s the method of the great deceiver.”

    WHICH WORDS IVAN? IT’S NOT OBVIOUS TO MY SEAT MATE HERE. BY THE WAY, WHAT’S OBVIOUS IS THAT AD HOMINEM ACCUSATION IS ONE OF THE WEAKEST FORMS OF ARGUMENT. HEHEHE. THANK YOU FOR THE ACCUSATION!

    “The Catholic Church can never be that SAME 1ST CENTURY CHURCH OF CHRIST (the TRUE Church of Christ) for the OBVIOUS reason that it FAILED to remain loyal to Christ’s teachings.”

    IT IS NOT THE SAME IN THE SENSE THAT IVAN THE BABY IS NOT THE SAME AS IVAN THE ADULT. THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH WAS AT ITS INFANCY. REMEMBER THAT THE CHURCH IS A LIVING, BREATHING, AND GROWING ORGANISM, VERY MUCH LIKE THE MUSTARD SEED THAT GROWS INTO A LARGE TREE OR BUSH WHATEVER. DID YOU FORGET THAT JESUS USED THIS PARABLE IN DESCRIBING THE KINGDOM OF GOD? THE DEVELOPMENT OR GROWTH OF THE CHURCH IS SIMILAR TO THAT. NOW, HOW CAN THE INC CLAIM LOYALTY TO THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST WHEN IT THREW AWAY THE TRADITIONAL CONFESSION OF JESUS’ DIVINITY IN EXCHANGE FOR A NEW ARIUS-MADE TEACHING THAT REDUCED JESUS TO A MERE HUMAN BEING?

    SO, SPEAKING OF FIRST CENTURY CHURCH, WHAT CAN YOU SAY NOW ABOUT PASUGO’S ASSERTION THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, FROM THE BEGINNING, WAS THE TRUE CHURCH? YOU SIMPLY ELUDED THIS ISSUE SO I’M BRINGING IT BACK TO YOUR ATTENTION!

    “WHY are you are eluding the issue that Christ NEVER even recognized and preached that he was God or part of your so called GODHEAD? You know what? Instead of telling more of your delusions and false assumptions, why not comment on that first?”

    HAHAHA! I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT WE CAN PROVE TO YOU THAT JESUS DECLARED HIS DIVINITY. BUT AS OF YET YOU HAVE NEVER ASKED ME TO PROVE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE! THAT’S WHAT I WAS WAITING FROM YOU. SO HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT I ELUDED THE ISSUE? DO YOU ELUDE AN ARROW THAT’S NOT COMING AT YOU? HEHEHE! AND NOW YOU ARE COMPLAINING BECAUSE YOU ELUDED YOUR OWN QUESTION? YOU REALLY MADE ME LAUGH THIS TIME IVAN, HAHAHA. AND BESIDES, I HAVE RAISED SEVERAL ISSUES AGAINST YOUR CHURCH BUT YOU ARE SO OVERLY SELECTIVE IN YOUR REPLY, ELUDING IF YOU MAY.

    DID CHRIST SAY AND PREACH THE TRINITY???

    DID HE RECOGNIZE HIMSELF AS GOD BESIDES THE FATHER???

    DIDNT HE REVEAL THE ONE TRUE GOD???

    YES. JESUS DECLARED HIMSELF TO BE GOD! WOULD THAT SUFFICE? BUT FOR NOW, LET US PUT THINGS IN ORDER. SINCE IT WAS THE INC WHO CAME UP WITH A NEW TEACHING ABOUT JESUS, I THINK IT IS INCUMBENT UPON YOU TO PROVE FIRST THAT THE THE BIBLE TAUGHT THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” SHOW US A CATEGORICAL STATEMENT FROM THE BIBLE THAT SAYS, “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” IF YOU CAN DO THAT, THEN MY REPLY WOULD NOT BE NECESSARY ANYMORE AND I WILL BECOME AN INC! RIGHT AWAY! IS THAT A DEAL IVAN? OF COURSE, EVERYTHING IS SUBJECT TO THE APPROVAL OF THE OWNER OF THIS BLOG!

    “FYI, the Catholic Church, because of FORMULATING the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, CAN NEVER BE TRUE. Christ preached who he was (John 8) and who the ONE TRUE GOD was as well (John 17:3).”

    WELL, WE CAN TACKLE THIS ISSUE IF YOU ACCEPT MY EARLIER SUGGESTION FIRST.

    “Your mere assertions are nothing if you cannot support them with the testimonies in the Bible…”

    THE SAME PRINCIPLE APPLIES TO YOUR OWN MERE ASSERTIONS.

    “And you even boast that the Bible was given by the Catholic… That is a very very amusing point to consider Dro Tecson. You may say that the Bible was compiled by the Catholic…”

    SO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MERELY COMPILED THE BIBLE AND THEN YOU GOT IT FROM FELIX MANALO? HAHAHA! IM SURE MARTIN LUTHER HIMSELF WOULD BE THROWN OUT OF HIS SEAT IF HE’D HEARD WHAT YOU JUST SAID. WHY? WELL, LET HIM SPEAK FOR HIMSELF:

    “WE ARE COMPELLED TO CONCEDE TO THE PAPISTS THAT THEY HAVE THE WORD OF GOD; THAT WE RECEIVED IT FROM THEM, AND THAT WITHOUT THEM WE SHOULD HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT AT ALL” (Martin Luther, Commentary on John 14).

    OF COURSE, GOD IS THE PRINCIPAL AUTHOR OF THE BIBLE, NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. BUT GOD ENTRUSTED IT TO THE CARE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHILE AT THE SAME TIME GIVING FULL AUTHORITY TO TEACH AND PREACH IT. THAT’S HOW AND WHY YOU HAVE OUR BIBLE! LET ME REPEAT, OUR BIBLE!

    “You know very well that passage in the Bible when Satan tried to tempt Christ in the desert. Did Satan know the Scripture? Of course he knows it very well. He even cited the Scripture in tempting Christ (Luke 4:9-12). Just like all false prophets, he twists the words of God for the purpose of MISLEADING and DECEIVING people.”

    EXACTLY. THAT’S WHY WE HAVE INC MINISTERS WHO REGURGITATE PASSAGES IN THE BILE TO DENY THE DIVINITY OF JESUS THE LORD, TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THEIR FOLLOWERS!

    “Another thing… Of course, people need a leader, a teacher, a messenger from God to teach them His words…His commandments. DEFINITELY, you can never find that in the Catholic Church.”

    A TEACHER WITH DIVINE AUTHORITY – THAT’S WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS! NOT THE INC! A TEACHER WITH DIVINE AUTHORITY TO TEACH IS DEFINITELY NOT AN “ANGEL” FROM PUNTA STA ANA! REGARDING ANGELS, HERE’S WHAT ST. PAUL SAYS,

    “BUT EVEN IF WE OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN SHOULD PREACH A GOSPEL OTHER THAN THE ONE WE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ETERNALLY CONDEMNED..”(Gal 1:8)

    MANALO AN “ANGEL”? CHECK! PREACHING THE JESUS OF ARIUS INSTEAD OF THE JESUS OF THE CHURCH? CHECK! THE INC DECEIVED? CHECK!

    “Bear in mind that the minister or ministers appointed by God possess His DOCTRINE. The RCC are just full of MISINTERPRETATIONS AND FALSE ASSUMPTIONS.”

    IF YOU ACCEPT MY EARLIER SUGGESTION, THEN YOU CAN DEMONSTRATE THERE YOUR FALSE OPINIONS!

    “Contemplate again on John 8:42-47. By the way, have you already read the whole of John 8? Read that chapter please and take note who Christ revealed as God and Father who sent him.”

    AT THE PAIN OF REPEATING MYSELF, YES I DID. JESUS’ DIVINITY WAS NOT DENIED IN THOSE VERSES! NO TOTAL APOSTASY EITHER!

    “NOW, dro Tecson, who DENIES God, and Christ Jesus as well???”

    THE INC OF COURSE!

    “Those who believe in the Trinity or not? Of course, you can lie to yourself and to others. BUT, you can never lie to God”

    FELIX MANALO LIED TO YOU. AND YOU BELIEVED HIM. YOU BELIEVED IN AN ANGEL THAT PREACHED A DIFFERENT JESUS! REMEMBER WHAT ST. PAUL TOLD YOU ABOUT THIS IN GALATIANS 1:8? RIGHT. LET HIM BE ETERNALLY CONDEMNED. BUT, BY FOLLOWING FELIX MANALO THE “ANGEL” YOU IN EFFECT REJECTED ST PAUL’ ADMONITION. WHAT A PITY!

  242. Dro tecson says:

    IVAN’S COMMENTS IN QUOTES, MINE ALL CAPS:

    I SAID:

    “LET’S MAKE THAT CLEAR. AND THE CHURCH, BY THE AUTHORITY GIVEN TO HER BY JESUS, HAS PROCLAIMED THE TRINITY AS A TRUTH CONTAINED IN THE SACRED SCRIPTURES.”

    IVAN REPLIED:

    Mere assertions…

    MY COMMENT:

    TO EASE UP ON YOUR CONFUSION A LITTLE BIT, IVAN, LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR THAT WHAT I SAID WAS AN ASSERTION OF A HISTORICAL FACT! DO YOU DENY THAT THE “CATHOLIC CHURCH HAD PROCLAIMED THE TRINITY AS A TRUTH CONTAINED IN THE BIBLE”? OR, DO YOU WANT TO SAY NOW THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID NOT DO IT?

    “TRINITY in the Bible??? Where???”

    MY SUGGESTION IS BEING OFFERED TO YOU TO PUT ORDER INTO THIS DISCUSSION. SHOW TO US FIRST THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” IS FOUND IN THE BIBLE! I ASKED THAT IN THE SAME WAY THAT YOU ASKED US TO SHOW THAT HE WORD “TRINITY” IS FOUND IN THE BIBLE.

    “The FACT is the word Trinity and the idea of it came from Tertullian… (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian)”

    SEE?? YOU ALREADY SHIFTED YOUR ATTENTION ON THE WORD “TRINITY” WHEREAS WHAT I ASSERTED WAS ABOUT THE “TRUTH” OF THE TRINITY BEING FOUND IN THE BIBLE. THERE IS A FINE DISTINCTION HERE, IF EVER YOU GET IT.

    “AND, when was the doctrine of Trinity established??? It was only in 325 A.D., by the first Council of Nicaea, FYI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity)”

    ESTABLISHED? MAYBE YOU MEANT “DEFINED.” DO YOU KNOW WHY THE CHURCH MADE AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT ON THE TRINITY? THE REASON WAS ARIUS, THE FOREFATHER OF YOUR FAKE ANGEL MANALO.

    “That DELUDED Trinitarian doctrine did not come from Christ nor from the apostles!!! Therefore, if it’s not from Christ nor from God, you know now where that came from… Dro Tecson, please read John 8:42-47 for your sake…”

    SHALL IT BE MY TURN TO SAY “MERE ASSERTION” ON YOUR PART IVAN?

    I SAID:

    “REALLY? TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS: 1.) WHY WAS HE KILLED BY THE JEWS? 2.) WHAT WAS HIS CRIME? I HOPE YOU CAN GIVE US GOOD ANSWERS!”

    IVAN REPLIED:

    “You answer and explain those arguments if you can… I bet you will just repeat all those MISINTERPRETATIONS and FALSE ASSUMPTIONS of the RCC that were already contended in this post”

    MY REPLY:

    I POSED TWO QUESTIONS. I EXPECTED TWO ANSWERS. BUT NONE CAME FROM YOU IVAN. THIS IS A CLEAR CASE OF ELUDING THE QUESTION. YOU ARE THEREFORE GUILTY OF THE SAME CRIME THAT YOU ACCUSED ME OF! ANYWAY, I’M STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER – IF EVER IT WOULD COME! AGAIN, WHY WAS JESUS KILLED BY THE JEWS? WHAT WAS HIS CRIME?

    I SAID:

    “HEY, WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT “UNDERSTANDING” AND “OBEDIENCE” ARE THE MAIN QUALIFICATIONS FOR BEING A CHRISTIAN? CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.”

    IVAN REPLIED:

    “Now WHAT IS A TRUE CHRISTIAN THEN, dro Tecson???”

    MY REPLY:

    HAHAHA! THAT IS ONE ESCAPE TOO MANY IVAN? WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT “UNDERSTANDING” AND “OBEDIENCE” ARE THE PRIMARY QUALIFICATIONS FOR BEING A CHRISTIAN? MERON O WALA? O DI MO LANG ALAM!?

    IVAN SAID:

    “What is your MORE SERIOUS QUESTION again, Dro Tecson??? Have you really contemplated on that? Read and contemplate over and over again on John 8:42-47… and be enlightened…”

    AGAIN, YOU EVADED MY QUESTION BY PRETENDING TO BE UNAWARE OF IT HEHEHE! IT’S VERY FUNNY BUT,OK, FOR YOUR SAKE, LET ME REPEAT MYSELF:

    “THE MORE SERIOUS QUESTION RATHER IS THIS: HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN WHEN YOU DENIED THE LORD WHO IS THE AUTHOR OF LIFE AND THE WISDOM OF GOD, AND THEN ACCUSED HIS BRIDE THE CHURCH OF TOTALLY BETRAYING HIM? HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN WHEN YOU “MURDERED” THE TRUE CHURCH BY INSISTING THAT SHE DIED BY WAY OF TOTAL APOSTASY?’

    TRY TO ANSWER THAT IF YOU CAN, IVAN! GOOD LUCK!

  243. ivan says:

    Dro Tecson:

    You said:

    WHICH WORDS IVAN? IT’S NOT OBVIOUS TO MY SEAT MATE HERE. BY THE WAY, WHAT’S OBVIOUS IS THAT AD HOMINEM ACCUSATION IS ONE OF THE WEAKEST FORMS OF ARGUMENT. HEHEHE. THANK YOU FOR THE ACCUSATION!

    My comment:

    Of course…that “AD HOMINEM ACCUSATION” again! Who’s doing that right now? REALLY?!!!

    Anyway, dro tecson, if you can just show the original article so that anyone who wants to check it can do so. BECAUSE, you know what, YOU ARE JUST TAKING WORDS OUT THEIR CONTEXTS…accept it or not…That is how the RCC is using the Bible…

    Yeah right man… That common “ad hominem” course you are taking is just the practice of cornered Catholic defenders here… I’m not surprised…

    ———–

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD??? PROVE IT, dro tecson…

    ———-

    You said:

    IT IS NOT THE SAME IN THE SENSE THAT IVAN THE BABY IS NOT THE SAME AS IVAN THE ADULT. THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH WAS AT ITS INFANCY. REMEMBER THAT THE CHURCH IS A LIVING, BREATHING, AND GROWING ORGANISM, VERY MUCH LIKE THE MUSTARD SEED THAT GROWS INTO A LARGE TREE OR BUSH WHATEVER. DID YOU FORGET THAT JESUS USED THIS PARABLE IN DESCRIBING THE KINGDOM OF GOD? THE DEVELOPMENT OR GROWTH OF THE CHURCH IS SIMILAR TO THAT. NOW, HOW CAN THE INC CLAIM LOYALTY TO THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST WHEN IT THREW AWAY THE TRADITIONAL CONFESSION OF JESUS’ DIVINITY IN EXCHANGE FOR A NEW ARIUS-MADE TEACHING THAT REDUCED JESUS TO A MERE HUMAN BEING?

    My comment:

    JUST FULL OF MERE ASSERTIONS, dro!!!

    Are you really using the Bible??? That’s very funny…HOW YOU HAVE YOUR OWN DEFINITION OF THE “LIVING CHURCH”…

    WILL THE “TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST” POSSESS A DOCTRINE THAT CHRIST HIMSELF DID NOT EVEN PREACH??? Think about that, man…

    AND where in the Bible is that??? Christ’s CONFESSION of his divinity????????????????
    WOW!!! SHOW US THE VERSE!!! For your sake SHOW the verse for you to be enlightened…

    MOREOVER, try to review or research more about the history of your TRINITARIAN BELIEF. FYI, it was not the original belief of the 1st century Church of Christ.

    ———–

    WHO DID CHRIST REVEAL AS THE ONE TRUE GOD??? PROVE IT dro tecson!!!…DON’T JUST ASSERT YOUR FALSE BELIEFS…

    ———–

    You said:

    YES. JESUS DECLARED HIMSELF TO BE GOD! WOULD THAT SUFFICE? BUT FOR NOW, LET US PUT THINGS IN ORDER. SINCE IT WAS THE INC WHO CAME UP WITH A NEW TEACHING ABOUT JESUS, I THINK IT IS INCUMBENT UPON YOU TO PROVE FIRST THAT THE THE BIBLE TAUGHT THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” SHOW US A CATEGORICAL STATEMENT FROM THE BIBLE THAT SAYS, “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” IF YOU CAN DO THAT, THEN MY REPLY WOULD NOT BE NECESSARY ANYMORE AND I WILL BECOME AN INC! RIGHT AWAY! IS THAT A DEAL IVAN? OF COURSE, EVERYTHING IS SUBJECT TO THE APPROVAL OF THE OWNER OF THIS BLOG!

    My comment:

    WHERE in the Bible is that??? Christ DECLARED himself to be GOD???!!! WHERE???

    For your thirst of the TRUTH, dro tecson, I have to give you this one verse AGAIN…John 17:3…Read that over and over again. Is that verse NOT ENOUGH for you??? Read John 8…Then ask yourself this: Did Christ reveal that he was God??? OR, Did Christ say that he, besides the Father, was also God???

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME???!!! Making a deal about FAITH??? Wow!!!

    Anyway, dro tecson, I have to ask you this regarding that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” verse you are looking. WHY NOT answer and explain that BELIEF yourself??? Man, my role here, in our discussion, FYI, is to defend my FAITH… You have to defend your FAITH. If your belief is the TRINITY, then, PROVE IT!!! That is, IF YOU CAN PROVE IT…

    ———-

    You said:

    OF COURSE, GOD IS THE PRINCIPAL AUTHOR OF THE BIBLE, NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. BUT GOD ENTRUSTED IT TO THE CARE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHILE AT THE SAME TIME GIVING FULL AUTHORITY TO TEACH AND PREACH IT. THAT’S HOW AND WHY YOU HAVE OUR BIBLE! LET ME REPEAT, OUR BIBLE!

    My comment:

    Man, enough of your MERE ASSERTIONS!!! Can we BE OBJECTIVE in dealing with the issues on hand?

    DID CHRIST OR THE APOSTLES PREACH THE TRINITY???

    PROVE IT!!!

    AGAIN, MERE ASSERTIONS ARE NOTHING…AND, A WASTE OF TIME!!!

    ———

    FYI, it’s not Arius who teaches that the ONE TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER ALONE. It is Christ HIMSELF who preaches that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD…

    THAT SAME ONE TRUE GOD OF ABRAHAM, OF MOSES, OF ISRAEL, OF CHRIST AND OF THE APOSTLES IS STILL THE SAME ONE TRUE GOD OF THE IGLESIA NI CRISTO IN THE PRESENT TIME.

    WHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT CHRIST SAYS HE IS GOD??? Come on, man…BE OBJECTIVE.

    That Arian teaching accusation is not new…SO, for your enlightenment, just be OBJECTIVE…

    WAS THE TRINITY PREACHED BY GOD, BY CHRIST OR BY THE APOSTLES??? PROVE IT!!!

    ———-

    You said:

    I POSED TWO QUESTIONS. I EXPECTED TWO ANSWERS. BUT NONE CAME FROM YOU IVAN. THIS IS A CLEAR CASE OF ELUDING THE QUESTION. YOU ARE THEREFORE GUILTY OF THE SAME CRIME THAT YOU ACCUSED ME OF! ANYWAY, I’M STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER – IF EVER IT WOULD COME! AGAIN, WHY WAS JESUS KILLED BY THE JEWS? WHAT WAS HIS CRIME?

    My comment:

    Man, I don’t know what you are trying to imply here…

    All I can say is…IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO EXPLAIN OR DISCUSS about why was Jesus killed by the Jews and what his crime was, FEEL FREE TO DO SO…That’s your call… ENLIGHTEN ME, IF YOU MAY…

    ———–

    You know what dro tecson…MERE ASSERTIONS, FALSE INTERPRETATIONS AND VAGUE ASSUMPTIONS ARE NOTHING…BE OBJECTIVE…

    ———–

    DID CHRIST EVER SAY AND PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD OR PART OF THE TRINITY??? PROVE IT!!!

  244. ivan says:

    Dro Tecson:

    I missed this one…

    This one should clear up your DELUDED mind because of the DECEPTION instilled by the Catholic Church to its members…

    You cited this:

    “BUT EVEN IF WE OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN SHOULD PREACH A GOSPEL OTHER THAN THE ONE WE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ETERNALLY CONDEMNED..”(Gal 1:8)

    My comment:

    This is the passage VERY MUCH SUITABLE TO THE TEACHERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

    Christ nor the apostles NEVER PREACHED the Trinity along with other FALSE TEACHINGS of the RCC, including Mary worship, worship of idols, forbidding to marry (for priests), praying to the so called saints, and endless chain of unbiblical Catholic practices NOT COMMANDED AND PREACHED by Christ.

    NOW, you answer YOUR MORE SERIOUS QUESTION, bearing in mind all those PRACTICES WHICH VIOLATE ALL the commandments of God.

    But of course, JUST GIVE A DIRECT ANSWER FIRST TO THE QUESTION:

    DID CHRIST REVEAL HIMSELF OR EVEN PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD???

  245. Dro tecson says:

    Wants to,

    Why not join us in our discussion? Perhaps you could help us put some sense in our arguments. Just thinking…

  246. Dro Tecson says:

    Ivan,

    Your desperation is showing!

    But I don’t intend to answer your post line by line as I used to do, because I can sense that you are already copying – or rather, employing my “line by line” style hahaha! It’s not that copying is wrong, Ivan. What is wrong is that you already have ceased to be reasonable! I can elaborate on that but for the purpose of cutting short some lengthy discussions, we can skip it for now.

    I appealed to you Ivan to put some order into this discussion. May I remind you that it was I who FIRST challenged you to SHOW US that the Bible says, “JESUS IS NOT GOD.”

    But what did you do? Well, needless to say, you ELUDED my challenge! It should not come as a surprise to me since you already had EVADED many of the vital issues that I brought to your attention. Among them was the claim of your Pasugo that the Catholic church was the true Church from the beginning! I also had asked you why was Jesus killed by the Jews, and what was his crime! It is already post-Halloween and yet why are you still scared to answer those questions? I wonder why!

    And now, in order to AVOID my challenge, you are trying to turn the table around by asking me to “prove” the Trinity, among many other issues. That’s not a very nice manner of discussion, Ivan! You say let’s be OBJECTIVE. I say lets be FAIR!!!

    Have you forgotten your own INC history of attacking and accusing the Catholic church as having false doctrines, being of the devil, etc etc..? All these charges were coming from your camp, so it is but incumbent upon you to prove these charges. The burden of proof is on you! Do you understand that?

    You claimed here that you are just defending your faith. Then the best way to defend your faith is to show us that the Bible says, “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” Where is that in the Bible? That’s a simple question! But it makes perfect sense, right?

    Now, show us the verse that says “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” If you can do that, the Trinity is false, the discussion will end in your favor, and then I will convert to the INC. (I bet Mr Quirino Sugon would NOT hesitate to do the same …)

    So, come on Ivan, BE REASONABLE BY TAKING THE CHALLENGE. DON’T BE A DESPERATE COWARD!

    GOOD LUCK!

  247. MANNY CRUZ says:

    Hi, I’m Manny Cruz. Makikisingit lang po sa usapan.

    1.Dro Tecson said,

    “WHICH WORDS IVAN? IT’S NOT OBVIOUS TO MY SEAT MATE HERE. BY THE WAY, WHAT’S OBVIOUS IS THAT AD HOMINEM ACCUSATION IS ONE OF THE WEAKEST FORMS OF ARGUMENT. HEHEHE. THANK YOU FOR THE ACCUSATION!”

    Ivan’s reply was, to say the least, funny!

    He said, “Of course…that “AD HOMINEM ACCUSATION again! Who’s doing that right now? REALLY?!!!”

    Ivan, for your information, an Ad Homimen is a counter argument aimed at the opposing party’s personal character instead of at the issue at hand. Dro’s words do not even contain a single word about your personal character, good or bad! So how can you allege such a thing to him? If I am not mistaken, you were the one who insinuated that Dro Tecson is a “DECEIVER.” And then you resorted to John 8:42-48, which to me seemed like a veiled attack on the person’s character by alluding to him as a “son of the Devil.” I say that because many of INC, ADD, JW , etc, defenders would not hesitate to resort to this tactic. It’s familiar to me at least. Anyway, if this tactic not Ad Hominem to you, then what is?

    2.) Ivan said,

    “Anyway, dro tecson, if you can just show the original article so that anyone who wants to check it can do so. BECAUSE, you know what, YOU ARE JUST TAKING WORDS OUT THEIR CONTEXTS…accept it or not…”

    Ivan, I’m surprised why you did not show the “original article” yourself? I think that’s the best way to demonstrate that indeed Dro Tecson had taken your words out of context. But you simply missed that chance. It would have easier for me to believe you had you done that! But right now, your allegation of Ad Hominem against Mr Dro Tecson is just an allegation without substance!

    3.Dro Tecson said,

    “IT IS NOT THE SAME IN THE SENSE THAT IVAN THE BABY IS NOT THE SAME AS IVAN THE ADULT. THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH WAS AT ITS INFANCY. REMEMBER THAT THE CHURCH IS A LIVING, BREATHING, AND GROWING ORGANISM, VERY MUCH LIKE THE MUSTARD SEED THAT GROWS INTO A LARGE TREE OR BUSH WHATEVER. DID YOU FORGET THAT JESUS USED THIS PARABLE IN DESCRIBING THE KINGDOM OF GOD? THE DEVELOPMENT OR GROWTH OF THE CHURCH IS SIMILAR TO THAT. NOW, HOW CAN THE INC CLAIM LOYALTY TO THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST WHEN IT THREW AWAY THE TRADITIONAL CONFESSION OF JESUS’ DIVINITY IN EXCHANGE FOR A NEW ARIUS-MADE TEACHING THAT REDUCED JESUS TO A MERE HUMAN BEING?”

    Again, Ivan has never failed to make me laugh so far. His answer was simply, “JUST FULL OF MERE ASSERTIONS, dro!!!”

    In the mind of Ivan, we can see that a “mere assertion” is valueless, not true, and simply a waste of time.

    Well, let me pick this up one by one, and see for yourselves how shallow Ivan’s reasoning is:

    a.) Is “Ivan the baby the same as Ivan the adult?” Yes and No. They are the same person, yes, but not in the same state. That I think is very obvious! Dro’s statement is correct. Therefore it cannot be dismissed as a worhtless “mere assertion” because it is an assertion of truth.

    b.) Was the first century Church in a state of “infancy” as Mr Dro Tecson asserted? Well, as far as I know, there were only 12 members of the Church at first. Now, how many members does the INC have? Perhaps Ivan can give us the numbers here. Dro Tecson just made an assertion of fact, and it’s a wonder why Ivan dismissed this a weightless “mere assertion.”

    c.) Is the Church a “living, breathing, growing organism” according to Dro Tecson? I mean, unless Ivan could show that the Church is non-living, non-breathing, or non-growing, then his objection is totally out of place!

    d.) Did the INC throw away, to borrow Dro Tecson’s words, the “traditional confession of Jesus’s divinity.”Well. all historical records would show that for the past 2000 years, Jesus has been universally worshiped by Christians as God. The early Christians refused to worship the emperors because they worship only Jesus. In fact, they were killed for this reason. Then came Felix Manalo, 1914 years later, who rejected this Christian tradition, and merely revived the old Arian heresy that says Jesus is only a man. Dro Tecson is correct. Ivan is . . . totally confused!

    Ok, now you can already understand that probably Ivan would reply to this post as, well, you guess it, “mere assertion.” Thank you! Happy all saints day!

  248. I have been asking that to Ivan the INCorporated 1914 All Rights Reserved diehard member, where in the bible says “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” Until now I haven’t got any answer. What happened Ivan?

  249. MANNY CRUZ says:

    By the way Ivan, where indeed is the verse that says “Jesus is not God” Come on man, we are waiting!

  250. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:
    Christ nor the apostles NEVER PREACHED the Trinity along with other FALSE TEACHINGS of the RCC, including Mary worship, worship of idols, forbidding to marry (for priests), praying to the so called saints, and endless chain of unbiblical Catholic practices NOT COMMANDED AND PREACHED by Christ.

    ME:
    CHRIST NOR THE APOSTLES NEVER PREACHED THE DEMISE OF THE CHURCH, ALONG WITH OTHER FALSE TEACHINGS OF THE INC INCLUDING THE COMING OF THE LAST MESSENGER THAT DOUBLES AS AN ANGEL BY THE NAME OF FELIX MANALO TO REBUILD A DEAD CHURCH, THAT THE PHILIPPINES IS THE FAR EAST, THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD, THAT THE LEADERSHIP OF THE CHURCH BE CONFINED TO JUST ONE FAMILY (MANALOS) AND AN ENDLESS CHAIN OF INC UNBIBLICAL PRACTICES NOT COMMANDED AND PREACHED BY CHRIST.

    WHAT SAY YOU “IVAN THE TERRIBLE”?

  251. ivan says:

    Dro Tecson:

    MAN, DON’T FLATTER YOURSELF!!! lol…LOL

    I’m trying to be patient with you as much as I can. Now you’re accusing me of being unreasonable?!!!

    I don’t do thrash talking now… which I used to do back then. So, consider yourself lucky…LOL…LOL…Just kidding. You can say WHAT you want to say, BUT, BUT BUT, dro, you can never escape the FACT that God, nor Christ, nor the Apostles did not preach your FALSE Trinitarian belief…CHRIST NEVER REVEAL HIMSELF TO BE GOD. By just reading John 17:3, JOhn 20:17, and Mark 12:28-34, you will see that the ONE TRUE GOD recognized by Christ is ONLY THE FATHER.

    Moreover, the apostles, TOO, also KNEW AND PREACHED WHO THAT “ONE TRUE GOD” WAS. I hope you’ll read the following verses: 2 Corinthians 1:3, Eph 1:3 and 1 Peter 1:3.

    FYI dro tecson, this is not the first time that I got questions like the one you have. Your challenge for me is to show you a verse from the Bible saying that “JESUS IS NOT GOD?” Your question is just THE SAME OLD “PALUSOT” style of the Catholic Church …LOL…LOL…for the purpose of DEFENDING your FALSE TEACHING about the Trinity…Come on, Dro Tecson!!! You know what…that question is very much SIMILAR to this (coming from another Catholic defender): “IS IT NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD TO BECOME MAN?” he he he..lol….Maybe you want to ask that SAME QUESTION too…PALUSOT QUESTION, if I may say…

    Dro Tecson, I’m asking you to give a DIRECT answer to just ONE question…DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD? Of course, needless to say, you should have given also BIBLICAL PROOFS…lol…That ONE QUESTION you can’t even answer…Now, you even have the nerve to call me a coward?!!! LOL…FYI, even for just a SIMPLE MEMBER of the Iglesia ni Cristo like me, this kind of questions or issues you are raising is just AS EASY as adding 1 + 1… Soon you’ll realize who that COWARD is…FOCUS NOW.

    I advise you to OPEN your mind…just for a moment put all of your DELUSIONS in a box and place it in a far place…just for a moment…YES, that FALSE TRINITARIAN BELIEF…put that in a box. THEN, pay attention…

    DID NOT CHRIST REVEAL THE FATHER AS THE “ONE TRUE GOD?”

    OF COURSE, HE DID, dro tecson!!! (John 17:3, John 20:17, Mark 12:28-34)

    Are YOU that BLIND that you can’t see the TRUTH??? Contemplate on John 8:42-47…

    NOW, imagine yourself hearing that preaching about the ONE TRUE GOD from Christ himself during that time, WOULD YOU STILL ASK YOURSELF THAT POINTLESS QUESTION YOU ARE ASKING INSISTENTLY???

    What is the POINT of asking that kind of question??? OF COURSE, that is just one of the “PALUSOT” defense tactics of the Catholic Church for the TRINITY DOCTRINE!!!

    Another thing…THINK ABOUT THIS…WHY WOULD THERE BE A NEED TO FORMULATE THAT TRINITY DOCTRINE of yours by the Council of Nicaea WITH the INTERVENTION of Emperor Constantine in 325 AD IF THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL GOSPEL OF CHRIST???

    THINK, dro tecson, THINK!!!

    FYI of course you can never find that verse (saying that JESUS IS NOT GOD) you are looking for BECAUSE what Christ DID was to REVEAL the FATHER as the ONE TRUE GOD…not him (Christ).

    John 17:3 states that — And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    TO KNOW THE ONLY TRUE GOD (the FATHER) and to SERVE HIM is the MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT OF ALL…(Mark 12:28-34).

    KNOWING THE FATHER AS THE ONE TRUE GOD AND DOING HIS WILL (this is OBEDIENCE, by the way) are NECESSARY for the SALVATION OF MAN…the promised ETERNAL LIFE.

    Dro tecson, are you still there??? LOL…

    Mt 7:21 states — “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    THAT IS WHY we can read in Mt 16:18 — And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

    FYI…FYI…FYI…That pronouncement by Christ himself…saying that the “gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” only implies that HIS CHURCH (THE TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST, that is, the Iglesia ni Cristo in the present time) shall overcome DEATH.

    NOW, read again my reply (in DETAIL) to Mr Sugon about this topic for your ENLIGHTENMENT regarding that DEATH or GATES OF HADES which has no longer dominion over the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST. For your sake, I just want to remind you that DEATH we are talking about is the SECOND DEATH…the SPIRITUAL DEATH…NOT THE PHYSICAL ONE…lol…

    ———-

    You said:

    You claimed here that you are just defending your faith. Then the best way to defend your faith is to show us that the Bible says, “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” Where is that in the Bible? That’s a simple question! But it makes perfect sense, right?

    MY COMMENT:

    HA HA HA HA HA… LOL…lol…

    Dro Tecson, LOOK AT YOU NOW!!!… lol..LOL… You are telling me that TO DEFEND MY FAITH AS A MEMBER OF THE IGLESIA NI CRISTO is to show you a VERSE which DOES NOT EXIST and which CAN NEVER EXIST???

    THE GOSPEL OF GOD PREACHED BY CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES FOR THE SALVATION OF MANKIND IS ALREADY DONE, FYI…

    WHY WOULD YOU STILL ADD TO WHAT IS ALREADY WRITTEN??? That is the VERY PRACTICE of the DELUDED Catholic Church…TO ADD TO WHAT IS ALREADY WRITTEN IN THE SCRIPTURE…That ACT OR PRACTICE ALONE is VERY MUCH AGAINST THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD and there is a WARNING for doing that…(Proverbs 30:5-6, 1 Cor 4:6, REV 22:18-19)

    AGAIN, WHAT IS WRITTEN IN JOHN 17: 3 IS THIS: “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

    NOW, if you are a TRUE FOLLOWER OF CHRIST (A TRUE CHRISTIAN) you WILL remain STEADFAST to this teaching, that is, ETERNAL LIFE means TO KNOW THE FATHER AS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD.”

    Is there a TRINITY THERE? HA dro??? DRO are you still there???

    DID CHRIST EVER PREACH ABOUT “3 PERSONS IN ONE GOD?”

    DID GOD HIMSELF REVEAL HIMSELF AS YOUR SO CALLED “TRINITY?”

    MOREOVER, these are also written —

    Deuteronomy 4:39 — Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

    Isaiah 44:6 — “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
    And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
    ‘I am the First and I am the Last;
    Besides Me there is no God.

    —————–

    NOW, DO YOU UNDERSTAND AND SEE WHY YOUR CHALLENGE OR QUESTION IS NOT RIGHT??? HA, dro tecson???!!! I just hope you do now…BUT I guess not…you know why??? YOU ARE TOO MUCH DELUDED BY THE DECEPTION INSTILLED IN YOU BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH…FOCUS, man….FOCUS…

    READ THE BIBLE…

  252. MANNY CRUZ says:

    Hi, Manny Cruz again. It’s more fun in the INC!!!!Hahaha

    1.) Dro Tecson said:

    OF COURSE, GOD IS THE PRINCIPAL AUTHOR OF THE BIBLE, NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. BUT GOD ENTRUSTED IT TO THE CARE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHILE AT THE SAME TIME GIVING [HER] FULL AUTHORITY TO TEACH AND PREACH IT. THAT’S HOW AND WHY YOU HAVE OUR BIBLE! LET ME REPEAT, OUR BIBLE!

    Ivan replied,

    “Man, enough of your MERE ASSERTIONS!!! Can we BE OBJECTIVE in dealing with the issues on hand?
    DID CHRIST OR THE APOSTLES PREACH THE TRINITY???”PROVE IT!!!

    MANNY CRUZ:

    Ahem. God is the principal Author of the Bible. But Ivan thought it was just a mere assertion. So He brushed aside that idea. Maybe the principal author of the Bible is Felix Manalo? Lamsa the best translator and Ivan the best interpreter? Ivan’s reply obviously was borne out of exasperation! He just shifted his attention on the TRINITY in an an attempt to divert the issue. It’s more fun in the INC!!!!!hahahaha!

    Ahem. The Catholic Church took care of the Bible. She compiled, preserved, and protected it. As Dro Tecson has pointed out, Martin Luther himself, the Sola Scriptura idol of Felix Manalo , admitted this fact!
    But Ivan would not admit it. He preferred rather to dismiss it as a “mere assertion.” He simply could not admit that fact that he is using a Catholic book. It’s more fun in the INC hahahaha!

    Ahem. Christ gave the Church the authority to teach and preach, and yes, that includes the Scriptures! For Ivan, it is just a worthless “mere assertion”. Well let us see. Christ commanded his apostles in this way:

    “All AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and MAKE DISCIPLES of all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and TEACHING them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely, I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”(Mat 28:18-20, NIV).

    In John 20:21, Jesus said, “as the Father has sent me, I am sending you”. In luke 10:16, Jesus asserts, or maybe for the pleasure of Ivan, “merely asserts”, “he who listens to you listens to me, he who rejects you rejects me, he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” It is clear Christ’s authority was given to the Church. But still Ivan thinks it is just a mere assertion which is, in his own words, “NOTHING…AND, A WASTE OF TIME!!! It’s really more fun in the INC! hahaha!

    2.) Ivan Said:

    “FYI, it’s not Arius who teaches that the ONE TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER ALONE. It is Christ HIMSELF who preaches that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD…”

    MANNY CRUZ:

    Excuse me Ivan. Arius was not famous for preaching the FATHER as the ONE TRUE GOD. That’s only your opinion, or rather, mere assertion. hehehe! Try to examine his writings and you cannot sense that the FATHER was his main concern. He was more preoccupied with the notion that JESUS IS NOT GOD and MAN ONLY. The Council of Nicea was convoked primarily because of Arius’ newly invented idea about Jesus being man only. And that is exactly what you have in common with Arius. The fact is that the true Church ( which the Pasugo, if Dro Tecson is correct, supposedly admitted was the Catholic Church), had already condemned Arius WITH THE AUTHORITY OF CHRIST! So don’t drag the name of Christ and the apostles into this heresy.

    You embraced what the true church had already condemned! It’s really more fun in the INC ahahahaha!

  253. ivan says:

    Dro Tecson:

    Since the administrator has not yet posted my response to your FOOLISH accusations, let me comment on another one you, as usual, DISHONESTLY stated…HE HE HE…lol…lol…

    You said (with arrogance):

    I appealed to you Ivan to put some order into this discussion. May I remind you that it was I who FIRST challenged you to SHOW US that the Bible says, “JESUS IS NOT GOD.”

    MY COMMENT:

    WA HA HA HA HA HA…LOL…

    Is that right, dro??? IS THAT RIGHT??? Review again how our discussion/argument started!!! Ha dro!!! Can you do that? To REFRESH your MURKY MIND that is FULL OF CATHOLIC DELUSIONS…

    You just BUTTED IN, isn’t it? Mr Sugon and I (JUST TO REFRESH YOU) were talking about the APOSTASY of the Church. I said that the VERY PROOF of that (AS I ALWAYS ARGUE) was the FALSE TRINITY DOCTRINE of your church. I even reiterated the FACT that Christ NEVER PREACHED that he was God or part of the so called Godhead. I even reiterated the QUESTION: DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD???

    WHAT WERE YOUR REPLIES??? HA dro? WHAT???

    JUST MERE ASSERTIONS!!! You did not even care prove your answers by showing where you based them. OF COURSE, man, that’s only COMMON SENSE. That argument that I’ve been repeating over and over again needs BIBLICAL PROOFS…TESTIMONIES FROM THE BIBLE…

    SO NOW, SHOW YOUR COURAGE…lol…lol…

    PROVE THAT CHRIST DECLARED HIMSELF AS GOD… You said: “JESUS DECLARED HIMSELF TO BE GOD!”

    WOW!!! PROVE IT, DRO TECSON!!!

    Now I’m getting hungry with those FALSE ACCUSATIONS of yours. I’m putting “ORDER” in this discussion. I’m going to Johnny Rockets to ORDER my favorite burger…he he he…LOL…just an ice breaker…

  254. ivan says:

    Santiago Vargaz, Manny Cruz, Dro Tecson:

    Due to INSISTENT DEMAND, I have already posted my reply regarding your contention that there is no verse in the Bible saying Jesus is NOT GOD.

    ACTUALLY, there should have been no argument about that BECAUSE what we should have been discussing here are the FACTS that are already RECORDED in the Bible.

    Looking for a verse that does not exist, OBVIOUSLY, is a WASTE OF TIME… You know very well why there are such arguments…accept it or not… You see it’s an OBVIOUS way of “PAMIMILOSOPO”…lol…lol…

    The reason for the ABSENCE of such verse IS THAT the early nation of God as well as the TRUE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST during his (Christ) time KNEW very well that THE “ONE TRUE GOD” was the FATHER. That ONE TRUE GOD is revealed by GOD himself. Christ, according to the verses I cited, PREACHED only the Father as the ONLY TRUE GOD. Again, the early people of God knew very well WHO that ONE GOD was.

    In Malachi 2:10, this is written —

    Have we not all one Father?
    Has not one God created us?
    Why do we deal treacherously with one another
    By profaning the covenant of the fathers?

    JUST ASKING… to all who take such course of “PAMIMILOSOPO”… WHY NOT FOCUS ON THE FACTS IN THE BIBLE. TRY TO UNDERSTAND THEM INSTEAD OF LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT EXIST.

    FYI, in John 17:3, Christ Jesus DECLARED it POINT-BLANK that the FATHER WAS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD.” THINK about it…very carefully…with an open mind… Christ, if he is also God, should have stated it differently. He should have included himself as part of that ONE GOD, that is, if he (Christ) recognized himself as God also. He was SENT BY “GOD” to bring the GOSPEL to His people… for SALVATION. Christ should have preached that so called TRINITY if that is a doctrine from God… Think about it… BUT, NO… John 17:3 alone CLEARLY teaches us that the FATHER ALONE is that ONE TRUE GOD…

    Moreover, the GOSPEL OF GOD was already proclaimed by Christ before his death on the cross. God’s commandments were already PREACHED to HIS PEOPLE. It has been warned that NO ONE should ADD or SUBTRACT from what is ALREADY WRITTEN IN THE SCRIPTURE. Doing so would mean going against God. You know very well the consequence to that.

  255. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    Your signal is a little bit choppy…LOL…

    I don’t get it…REALLY…lol… your arguments…CONFUSING…VERY…lol…

    What did you say again about my stand regarding God as the AUTHOR of the Bible??? Please organize your thoughts…

    Also, you are suggesting that I be the one to show the original article which dro tecson himself cited? ARE YOU SERIOUS??? or you are just kidding…LOL… Come on, man…be serious…

    Another thing…what did you say again about what I said about Arius???

    Please, review HEEDFULLY all the arguments you are trying to comment on…PLEASE…

    DO NOT PUT WORDS IN OTHER PEOPLE’S MOUTHS…lol…lol…

  256. What Ivan the INCorporated 1914 All Rights Reserved diehard member wants to read in the bible is
    “I am Jesus, I am God The Creator, Kneel Before me All Of you!, I created You, so Kneel and Serve Me, I own you People of the World! I am Jesus, I am God!”
    Is that what you want us to show you in the Bible Ivan the INCorporated 1914 All Rights Reserved diehard member?
    Ivan I tell you now, you have got the “Filipino Squatter Mentality” injected by the INCorporated 1914 All Rights Reserved Doctrines in you pea-size brain.
    You are nothing but like Gestas “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us, Get Down from the Cross..” and The Temptation, , ‘If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.’… and so on testing the if Jesus really is God.

    You may wonder Ivan If Jesus is God as what the RCC is teaching, then why the hell he was crucified by the People he was created? I am sure you will never understand the logic Ivan.

  257. Dro Tecson says:

    Ivan,

    Take it easy. I have good news for you.

    I have decided to be kinder to you this time, because I sensed that in addition to your being unreasonable, you seemed to be in a state of panic! I don’t want you to be paranoid, Ivan. All I wanted was an orderly discussion. I only had one question, and in response you bombarded me with a lot of garbage: those rehashed misconceptions about the Catholic faith that were already answered many times over by Catholic apologists. Your recent posts only served to mess things up!

    Having said that, let me just forego my “line by line” rebuttal to a lot of your nonsense! Why? Because you FINALLY got the courage to say the ONLY sensible thing that you have ever said in reply to my questions!

    Here, let me quote you:

    “FYI of course you can never find that verse (saying that JESUS IS NOT GOD)…”

    That’s it Ivan. You finally got it! That’s the correct way of answering my question! Congratulations! By admitting this, you somehow rescued your rationality! You deserved some cookie points here hehehe! Just kidding. And oh yes, you even punctuated your answer with an emphatic ASSERTION that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is “a VERSE which DOES NOT EXIST and which CAN NEVER EXIST.” We can never be more grateful to you, Ivan Thank you very much! Now, we are getting somewhere!

    So, how do we make sense out of your confirmation that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is not found in the Bible?

    Well, remember Ivan that you denied the Trinity and many other Catholic teachings on the ground that they are not found in the Bible, right? The word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible and therefore it is false. That’s your way of thinking right? Right! Now, using your own line of thinking, we can ABSOLUTELY say that since the teaching that JESUS IS NOT GOD is not found in the Bible, therefore it is FALSE. The main tenet of the INC therefore, by your own admission, is UNBIBLICAL, and hence, FALSE!!

    In other words Ivan, AS MUCH AS YOU ACCUSED US CATHOLICS OF HAVING A FALSE BELIEF IN THE TRINITY ON THE GROUND THAT IT IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE, YOUR OWN STANDARD ITSELF HAS ALSO CONVICTED YOU OF HAVING A FALSE BELIEF THAT “ JESUS IS NOT GOD” ON THE SAME GROUND THAT IT IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE! THE VERY CORE OF INC BELIEF IS UNBIBLICAL AND THUS FALSE.

    Now, what can you say to this? And please… temper your panic! Be reasonable! Focus on the issue at hand.

  258. MANNY CRUZ says:

    With your indulgence Mr Dro Tecson, let me butt in once again, because….

    IT IS REALLY MORE FUN TO DISCUSS WITH IVAN!!!HAHAHA!

    1. IVAN:

    “I’m trying to be patient with you (Dro Tecson) as much as I can. Now you’re accusing me of being unreasonable?!!!”

    ME:

    THE PATIENT MAN IS COMPLAINING AND SPEWING FIRE!!! HAHAHA!

    2. IVAN::

    “I don’t do thrash talking now… which I used to do back then. So, consider yourself lucky…LOL…LOL…Just kidding. You can say WHAT you want to say, BUT, BUT BUT, dro, you can never escape the FACT that God, nor Christ, nor the Apostles did not preach your FALSE Trinitarian belief…CHRIST NEVER REVEAL HIMSELF TO BE GOD. By just reading John 17:3, JOhn 20:17, and Mark 12:28-34, you will see that the ONE TRUE GOD recognized by Christ is ONLY THE FATHER”

    ME:

    THE VERSES YOU QUOTED DO NOT STATE THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD. THAT IS ONLY YOUR CONCLUSION, OR FALSE INTERPRETATION OF THOSE VERSES. (AND, BY THE WAY, THANKS FOR INFORMING US OF YOUR EXCITING HISTORY OF TRASH TALKING HEHEHE! WE ARE LUCKY INDEED HEHE ).

    3.) IVAN:

    “Moreover, the apostles, TOO, also KNEW AND PREACHED WHO THAT “ONE TRUE GOD” WAS. I hope you’ll read the following verses: 2 Corinthians 1:3, Eph 1:3 and 1 Peter 1:3.”

    ME:

    DON’T BE LAZY. WHY NOT CITE THOSES VERSES YOURSELF SO WE CAN READILY SEE YOUR POINT?

    4.) IVAN:

    “FYI dro tecson, this is not the first time that I got questions like the one you have. Your challenge for me is to show you a verse from the Bible saying that “JESUS IS NOT GOD?” Your question is just THE SAME OLD “PALUSOT” style of the Catholic Church”

    ME:

    DON’T BE CRAZY. DRO’S QUESTION IS A VALID QUESTION AND NOT A PALUSOT. YOUR EVASION TO ANSWER HIS QUESTION IS THE REAL PALUSOT! SO, WHERE’S YOUR ANSWER IVAN?

    5.) IVAN:

    “Dro Tecson, I’m asking you to give a DIRECT answer to just ONE question…DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD? “

    ME:

    SEE? INSTEAD OF DIRECTLY ANSWERING DRO’S QUESTION, YOU TRIED TO TURN THE TABLE AROUND! COME ON IVAN. JUST GIVE US A DIRECT ANSWER, AND NOT A LAME PALUSOT LIKE THIS ONE! HEHEHE

    6.) IVAN:

    “DID NOT CHRIST REVEAL THE FATHER AS THE “ONE TRUE GOD?”
    OF COURSE, HE DID, dro tecson!!! (John 17:3, John 20:17, Mark 12:28-34)”

    ME:

    OKAY IVAN. WHERE IN THOSE VERSES DOES IT SAY THAT THE “ONE TRUE GOD IS NOT A TRINITY?” OR THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD? COME ON MAN, SHOW US AND BE DIRECT WITH YOUR ANSWER. WE HAVE ENOUGH OF YOUR PALUSOT.

    7.) IVAN:

    “Are YOU that BLIND that you can’t see the TRUTH??? …”

    ME:

    THE TRUTH IS THAT YOU JUST INTERPRETED THOSE VERSES BEYOND WHAT IT INTENDED TO SAY. YOU ARE BLIND TO THE REALITY THAT THERE ARE MORE VERSES IN THE BIBLE THAT POINTED TO THE DIVINITY OF JESUS THAN THERE ARE THAT DENIED IT. OPPPS. LET ME CORRECT MYSELF. THERE ARE NO VERSES THAT DENIED IT. YOUR CONCLUSION THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE, AND YOU ARE BLIND TO THAT REALITY. SORRY!

    8. IVAN:

    “NOW, imagine yourself hearing that preaching about the ONE TRUE GOD from Christ himself during that time, WOULD YOU STILL ASK YOURSELF THAT POINTLESS QUESTION YOU ARE ASKING INSISTENTLY???”

    YES, I CAN IMAGINE THAT THOSE WHO CRUCIFIED JESUS WERE MEMBERS OF THE INC WHO DID NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD! YOU ARE DEFINITELY BLIND TO THAT FACTI!

    9. IVAN:

    “What is the POINT of asking that kind of question??? OF COURSE, that is just one of the “PALUSOT” defense tactics of the Catholic Church for the TRINITY DOCTRINE!!!”

    ME:

    THE POINT OF ASKING SUCH A QUESTION IS TO SHOW YOU THAT THE INC’S CORE BELIEF ABOUT JESUS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE! THAT FACT TOTALLY ESCAPED YOUR MURKY MIND!

    10.) IVAN:

    “Another thing…THINK ABOUT THIS…WHY WOULD THERE BE A NEED TO FORMULATE THAT TRINITY DOCTRINE of yours by the Council of Nicaea WITH the INTERVENTION of Emperor Constantine in 325 AD IF THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL GOSPEL OF CHRIST???”

    ME:

    YOU ARE SHOWING YOUR HISTORICAL IGNORANCE! THE REASON WHY THE TRINITY HAD TO BE DEFINED AT THE COUNCIL OF NICEA IS THAT ARIUS HAD CHALLENGED THE UNIVERSAL BELIEF OF CHRISTIANS THAT JESUS IS GOD. ARIUS POSITION CREATED A LOT OF CONFUSION WITHIN THE CHURCH DURING THAT TIME! IF THE CHURCH CONSIDERED JESUS AS ONLY A MAN, LIKE WHAT YOU BLINDLY BELIEVED, THEN THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR THE CONTROVERSY AT ALL! EVERYBODY WOULD HAVE SIMPLY AGREED WITH ARIUS. SIMPLE!

    BUT THE SAD THING IS THAT, ONLY YOU AND YOUR ILK IN THE INC HAVE AGREED WITH ARIUS. AND YOU ATTACKED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MORE VEHEMENTLY THAN DID ARIUS! IVAN, THINK!!!

    THE BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? AFTER THE COUNCIL OF NICEA WAS OVER, THE PEOPLE CELEBRATED IN THE STREETS, JOYFUL THAT THE CHURCH LEADERSHIP HAD CONFIRMED THEIR ANCIENT UNIVERSAL BELIEF THAT JESUS IS GOD. IVAN, THINK!!

  259. Dro Tecson says:

    Ivan,

    Take it easy. I have good news for you.

    I have decided to be more kind to you this time, because I sensed that in addition to your being unreasonable, you seemed to be in a state of panic! I don’t want you to be paranoid nor hysterical, Ivan. All I wanted was an orderly discussion. I only had one question, and in response you bombarded me with a lot of garbage: those rehashed misconceptions about the Catholic faith that were already answered many times over by Catholic apologists. Your recent posts only served to mess things up!

    Having said that, let me just forego my “line by line” rebuttal to a lot of your nonsense! Why? Because you FINALLY got the courage to say the ONLY sensible thing that you have ever said in reply to my questions!

    Here, let me quote you:

    “FYI of course you can never find that verse (saying that JESUS IS NOT GOD)…”

    That’s it Ivan. You finally got it! That’s the correct way of answering my question! Congratulations! By admitting this, you somehow rescued your rationality! You deserved some cookie points here hehehe! Just kidding. And oh yes, you even punctuated your answer with an emphatic ASSERTION that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is “a VERSE which DOES NOT EXIST and which CAN NEVER EXIST.” We can never be more grateful to you! Thank you very much! Now we are getting somewhere!

    So, how do we make sense out of your ADMISSION that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is not found in the Bible?

    Well, remember Ivan that you denied the Trinity and many other Catholic teachings on the ground that they are not found in the Bible, right? The word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible and therefore it is false. That’s your way of thinking right? Right! Now, using your own line of thinking, we can EQUALLY say that since the teaching that JESUS IS NOT GOD is NOT FOUND in the Bible, therefore it is FALSE. Since the main tenet of the INC, by your own admission, is UNBIBLICAL, then it is FALSE!!

    In other words Ivan, AS MUCH AS YOU ACCUSED CATHOLICS FOR HAVING A FALSE BELIEF IN THE TRINITY ON THE GROUND THAT IT IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE, YOUR OWN STANDARD ITSELF HAS ALSO CONVICTED YOU FOR HAVING A FALSE BELIEF (THAT “ JESUS IS NOT GOD” ) ON THE SAME GROUND THAT IT IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE! AGAIN, THE VERY CORE OF INC BELIEF IS UNBIBLICAL AND THUS FALSE.

    Now, what can you say to this? And please… temper your panic! Focus on the issue at hand.

  260. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. IVAN:
    “Dro tecson, are you still there??? LOL”

    ME:

    IVAN, MAYBE DRO IS OUT OF TOWN. BUT I’M HERE. BUTTING IN. MAYBE YOU ARE ALLERGIC TO ME THAT’S WHY YOU NEVER RESPONDED TO ANY OF MY POSTS HEHEHE! JOKE….PEACE IVAN!

    2. IVAN:

    “Mt 7:21 states — “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

    ME:

    VERY TRUE IVAN. IT IS ALSO TRUE THAT NOT EVERY CHURCH WHO CALLS ITSELF “CHURCH OF CHRIST” OR “IGLESYA NI CRISTO” IS THE REAL CHURCH OF CHRIST. DON’T TELL ME THIS IS JUST A MERE ASSERTION BECAUSE YOU YOURSELF CAN CONFIRM IT. THE INC IS SO EXCLUSIVE THAT IT CONSIDERED ALL THE OTHER CHURCHES, INCLUDING THOSE THAT ARE ALSO NAMED ” CHURCH OF CHRIST” AS FAKES AND OF THE DEVIL.

    3. IVAN:

    “THAT IS WHY we can read in Mt 16:18 — And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”

    ME:

    VERY TRUE. THAT IS WHY THE INC WILL NEVER PREVAIL AGAINST THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST (AS CONFIRMED BY THE PASUGO, HEHEHE)

    4. IVAN:

    “FYI…FYI…FYI…That pronouncement by Christ himself…saying that the “gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” only implies that HIS CHURCH (THE TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST, that is, the Iglesia ni Cristo in the present time) shall overcome DEATH.”

    ME:

    FYI… FYI… FYI…I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY BIBLE TRANSLATION IN WHICH MAT. 16:18 BEARS THE PHRASE “(the Iglesya ni Cristo in the present time)” HAHAHAHA! THAT’S A SHAMELESS ADDITON ON YOUR PART IVAN! GARAPALAN NA YATA YAN! ANYWAY, I’M NOT REALLY SURPRISED BY WHAT YOU DID. TWISTING OUR BIBLE HAS BEEN A WAY OF LIFE FOR THE INC. HEHEHE. I THINK MAYBE ST. PETER WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED EITHER, AS HE ASSERTS THAT IN PAUL’S LETTER’S, THERE ARE “some things that are hard to understand, which IGNORANT and UNSTABLE people DISTORT, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”(2 Peter 3:16.NIV)

    5. IVAN:

    “NOW, read again my reply (in DETAIL) to Mr Sugon about this topic for your ENLIGHTENMENT regarding that DEATH or GATES OF HADES which has no longer dominion over the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST. For your sake, I just want to remind you that DEATH we are talking about is the SECOND DEATH…the SPIRITUAL DEATH…NOT THE PHYSICAL ONE…lol..”

    ME:

    OH MY GULAY! THERE YOU ARE AGAIN, INSERTING FELIX MANALO’S PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF BIBLICAL TEXTS. DEATH IS BOTH PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL, RIGHT? THEN WHAT MADE YOU THINK THAT MAT 16:18 IS MERELY ABOUT SPIRITUAL DEATH TO THE EXCLUSION OF PHYSICAL DEATH? ARE YOU SO IGNORANT OF THE FACT THE “HADES” ITSELF IS THE ABODE OF THOSE WHO ARE “PHYSICALLY DEAD?” WHY EXCLUDE PHYSICAL DEATH? TO PARAPHRASE YOUR WORDS, “WHY WOULD YOU STILL SUBTRACT TO WHAT IS ALREADY WRITTEN??? That is the VERY PRACTICE of the DELUDED IGLESYA NI CRISTO 1914 INCORPORATED.”

    YOU ARE READING TOO MUCH INTO THE VERSE -. OR MAYBE TOO LITTLE – THAT’S WHY YOU ENDED UP DISTORTING THE SCRIPTURES. SORRY IVAN!

    6.IVAN:

    “THE GOSPEL OF GOD PREACHED BY CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES FOR THE SALVATION OF MANKIND IS ALREADY DONE, FYI…”

    ME:

    DO YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING HERE IVAN? IT MEANS THAT THERE IS NO MORE NEED FOR A NEW MESSENGER THAT CALLS HIMSELF AN ANGEL IN ORDER TO “REDO” THE ALREADY DONE GOSPEL. IT MEANS THAT THE CHURCH, WHICH IS BUILT ON THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, AND IS TASKED TO PROCLAIM IT, CANNOT BE REBUILT BY ANY OTHER, FOR IT IS WRITTEN, “ no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.!”(1 Cor 3:11).

    THE CHURCH WAS ALREADY BUILT BY JESUS CHRIST, THE CORNERSTONE, AND THEREFORE THERE IS NO MORE ROOM FOR SOMEONE LIKE FELIX MANALO TO REBUILD IT AND CALL IT INC 1914 INCORPORATED PHILIPPINES.. OH, BY THE WAY, ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS STILL PLENTY OF ROOM TO BUILD A FAKE CHURCH. THERE IS WHERE YOU BELONG IVAN! SORRY!

  261. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. IVAN:

    Manny Cruz,

    “Your signal is a little bit choppy…LOL…

    I don’t get it…REALLY…lol… your arguments…CONFUSING…VERY…lol…”

    ME:

    IVAN, LET ME BE FRANK WITH YOU. YOU ARE A SMART GUY! DO YOU AGREE? NOW, HOW COME A SMART GUY LIKE YOU GETS EASILY CONFUSED BY SIMPLE ARGUMENTS FROM A NOT- AS- SMART A GUY LIKE ME? WELL, I CAN ONLY SEE ONE REASON. THAT IS, FELIX MANALO HAS LIED TO YOU AND HIS LIES HAVE PENETRATED THE VERY CORE OF YOUR HEART AND HAS SHORT-CIRCUITED THE PROCESSES OF YOUR BRAIN! STILL CONFUSED? WELL, I’M NOT SURPRISED, IVAN!

    2.IVAN:

    “What did you say again about my stand regarding God as the AUTHOR of the Bible??? Please organize your thoughts…”

    ME:

    DRO SAID, AMONG OTHER THINGS, THAT “GOD IS THE PRINCIPAL AUTHOR OF THE BIBLE”. IN YOUR REPLY YOU JUST SAID, “MERE ASSERTION.” AND YOU EVEN STRESSED THAT “AGAIN, MERE ASSERTIONS ARE NOTHING…AND, A WASTE OF TIME!!!” THAT’S YOUR OWN WORDS IVAN! DON’T TELL ME THAT YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN HAVING SAID IT. I KNOW YOU ARE CONFUSED BUT I HAVE NO IDEA HOW BAD YOUR MEMORY IS!

    3. IVAN:

    “Also, you are suggesting that I be the one to show the original article which dro tecson himself cited? ARE YOU SERIOUS??? or you are just kidding…LOL… Come on, man…be serious…”

    ME:

    WELL, IF YOU JUST EXERTED A LITTLE EFFORT IN SHOWING EVEN JUST A LITTLE PORTION OF THE “ORIGINAL ARTICLE” THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, THEN WE CAN READILY SEE WHERE DRO TECSON IS MISLEADING YOU! THE “ORIGINAL ARTICLE” -WHATEVER YOU MEANT BY THAT- WOULD HAVE PROVIDED THE REFERENCE POINT FOR YOUR ALLEGATION THAT DRO TECSON IS INDEED TAKING WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT. SINCE YOU DID NOT DO THAT, THEN YOUR ALLEGATION IS WITHOUT SUBSTANCE. YOUR ALLEGATION IS, IN YOUR OWN WORDS AGAIN, A “MERE ASSERTION” WHICH IS “NOTHING…AND A WASTE OF TIME.”

    4. IVAN:

    “Another thing…what did you say again about what I said about Arius???”

    ME:

    ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN (AGAIN!!!) WHAT YOU HAD JUST SAID ABOUT ARIUS? COME ON IVAN, YOU TOOK SHELTER ON A CONCOCTED AMNESIA AS YOUR COUNTER ARGUMENT? OH MY GULAY! ARE YOU STILL ALRIGHT IVAN?

    5. IVAN:

    “Please, review HEEDFULLY all the arguments you are trying to comment on…PLEASE…

    DO NOT PUT WORDS IN OTHER PEOPLE’S MOUTHS…lol…lol…”

    ME:

    I DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO YOUR MOUTH. IN FACT, BY QUOTING YOUR OWN WORDS, I EVEN LET YOU SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!! I’M JUST PUTTING SOME SENSE INTO YOUR STATEMENTS IN AN EFFORT TO DIFFUSE SOME OF YOUR CONFUSIONS!. SO PLEASE IVAN, JUST SETTLE DOWN A LITTLE BIT. YOU NEED TO REGAIN YOUR STABILITY FOR THE GRUELING BATTLE AHEAD!

  262. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. IVAN:

    “Santiago Vargaz, Manny Cruz, Dro Tecson:

    Due to INSISTENT DEMAND, I have already posted my reply regarding your contention that there is no verse in the Bible saying Jesus is NOT GOD.”

    ME:

    OH FINALLY YOU ADMITTED IT!!! THANK YOU IVAN!

    SO, CAN WE NOW SAY THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” IS NOT A BIBLICAL STATEMENT???CAN WE NOW SAY THAT YOUR MAIN BELIEF ABOUT JESUS IS UNBIBLICAL???

    2.IVAN:

    “ACTUALLY, there should have been no argument about that BECAUSE what we should have been discussing here are the FACTS that are already RECORDED in the Bible.”

    ME:

    THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO ARGUMENT HAD ARIUS AND MANALO NOT TWISTED THE BIBLE TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. REMEMBER THAT IT WAS ARIUS WHO INSTIGATED THE ARGUMENT BY HIS ASSERTION THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD. TO HIS CREDIT, HE ALMOST SUCCEEDED IN DESTROYING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AT THAT TIME! BUT IN THE END HE MISERABLY FAILED, AND HIS FIGHT WAS CARRIED ON BY FELIX MANALO, MORE THAN A THOUSAND YEARS LATER! CURIOUSLY, LIKE JUDAS ISCARIOT BEFORE THEM, BOTH OF THEM DIED WITH A BELLY PROBLEM!

    YOU BELIEVED LIKE ARIUS, MANALO, AND JUDAS THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD, RIGHT? BUT, THE FACTS OF RECORDED IN THE BIBLE DO NOT INCLUDE IT, RIGHT? THE FACT THAT IS THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” IS NOT RECORDED IN THE BIBLE!! CORRECT?YOUR MAIN BELIEF ABOUT JESUS IS NOT TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE! NOW, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA, WHAT’S THE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS NOT RECORDED IN THE BIBLE????

    3.IVAN:

    “Looking for a verse that does not exist, OBVIOUSLY, is a WASTE OF TIME… You know very well why there are such arguments…accept it or not… You see it’s an OBVIOUS way of “PAMIMILOSOPO”…lol…lol…”

    ME:

    PRECISELY. TO BELIEVE THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” IS A WASTE OF TIME. OH WAIT, THERE’S MORE! TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD IS NOT ONLY A WASTE OF TIME, BUT ALSO A WASTE OF ONE’S SOUL.

    4. IVAN:

    “The reason for the ABSENCE of such verse IS THAT the early nation of God as well as the TRUE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST during his (Christ) time KNEW very well that THE “ONE TRUE GOD” was the FATHER. That ONE TRUE GOD is revealed by GOD himself. Christ, according to the verses I cited, PREACHED only the Father as the ONLY TRUE GOD. Again, the early people of God knew very well WHO that ONE GOD was.”

    ME:

    YOUR SENSE OF BIBLICAL HISTORY IS QUITE MUDDLED! THE CONCEPT OF GOD AS “FATHER” IS ALREADY CONTAINED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, BUT THE PEOPLE NEVER QUITE UNDERSTOOD IT COMPLETELY.

    IT WAS ONLY JESUS WHO EMPHATICALLY INTRODUCED THE ONE TRUE GOD AS “FATHER” EVEN AS HE ASKED HIS FOLLOWERS TO ADDRESS GOD AS “ABBA” OR FATHER!

    GOD IS FATHER PRIMARILY BECAUSE HE HAS A SON! MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHEN JESUS REVEALED THAT GOD IS A FATHER, HE ALSO REVEALED THAT HE IS GOD’S SON AND THAT HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. THE FATHER CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD APART FROM THE SON, AND THE SON CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD APART FROM THE FATHER.

    FURTHERMORE, THIS REVELATION IS SOMETHING NEW TO THE PEOPLE. NATURALLY, UPON HEARING THIS, MANY WERE SHOCKED. AND MANY WERE ANGERED. BECAUSE IN THE MINDSET OF OF JEWS, TO CALL YOURSELF AS AS THE SON OF GOD IS TANTAMOUNT TO SAYING THAT YOU ARE GOD. ((SEE JOHN 10:30-33.) THEY SAID IT WAS BLASPHEMY.

    BY CALLING HIMSELF AS THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CLAIMED IN EFFECT THAT HE IS GOD. THAT IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION FOR THE ANGER OF THE JEWS TOWARDS HIM!

    SO, DON’T BE SURPRISED IVAN THAT THE VERSE “JESUS IS NOT GOD” IS NOT RECORDED IN THE BIBLE. IT IS BECAUSE…. HOLD YOUR BREATH IVAN…… IT IS BECAUSE…YES YOU GUESS IT…JESUS IS GOD!

  263. ivan says:

    Santiago Vargas,

    It’s been a long time since your last silly argument…

    Anyway, here we are again…lol…

    ————–

    YOU SAID:

    What Ivan the INCorporated 1914 All Rights Reserved diehard member wants to read in the bible is
    “I am Jesus, I am God The Creator, Kneel Before me All Of you!, I created You, so Kneel and Serve Me, I own you People of the World! I am Jesus, I am God!”

    Is that what you want us to show you in the Bible Ivan the INCorporated 1914 All Rights Reserved diehard member?

    MY ANSWER:

    No, Santiago… Man, what Im trying to say here is that God, as well as Christ and the apostles, never ever preached about that so called Trinity (3 persons in one God). Christ, in FACT, DID REVEAL who the ONE TRUE GOD was (John 17:3, John 20:17: Mark 12:28-34…to cite a few). His apostles, too, UNDERSTOOD VERY CLEARLY that the Father was that ONE TRUE GOD.

    1 Cor 8:6 states — “…yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

    The apostles also wrote in their epistles “blessed be the GOD and FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST” (2 Cor 1:3, Eph 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3). They UNDERSTOOD PERFECTLY WELL who that ONE TRUE GOD that Christ revealed to them.

    And how about the early people of God?

    Of course, they, too, knew WHO THAT ONE GOD was. In 1 Chronicles 29:10, this is written —

    “Therefore David blessed the Lord before all the assembly; and David said:
    “Blessed are You, Lord God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever.”

    In Malachi 2:10 this is what is written —

    “Have we not all one Father?
    Has not one God created us?
    Why do we deal treacherously with one another
    By profaning the covenant of the fathers?

    SO, WHY DEVIATE FROM THE TRUTH that the EARLY NATION OF GOD, ISRAEL, CHRIST and the APOSTLES as well UPHELD and PREACHED???

    Think about that, man…

    ———–

    YOU SAID:

    Ivan I tell you now, you have got the “Filipino Squatter Mentality” injected by the INCorporated 1914 All Rights Reserved Doctrines in you pea-size brain.

    You are nothing but like Gestas “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us, Get Down from the Cross..” and The Temptation, , ‘If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.’… and so on testing the if Jesus really is God.

    MY COMMENT:

    Basing from the PARAPHRASED passages you cited, WAS THE CHRIST JESUS REALLY TESTED AS “GOD”??? Come on, man…LOL…Read again those passages in the Bible. “Konti pa” Santiago, JUST READ again those passages…come on…You will soon REALIZE that SATAN was tempting Christ for being the SON OF GOD (Luke 4).

    ————-

    YOU SAID:

    You may wonder Ivan If Jesus is God as what the RCC is teaching, then why the hell he was crucified by the People he was created? I am sure you will never understand the logic Ivan.

    MY COMMENT:

    FYI, Santiago, Christ was crucified for PROCLAIMING that he was the SON OF GOD. The Jews then NEVER UNDERSTOOD the TRUTH (the GOSPEL OF GOD) that CHRIST REVEALED AND PREACHED. Please read the WHOLE CHAPTERS of John 8 and John 10.

    Contemplate on this…John 8:42-47

    LET’S JUST HOPE YOU AND OTHERS HERE AS WELL WILL NOT REMAIN LIKE THOSE JEWS WHO GOT REALLY FURIOUS BECAUSE OF THE “TRUTH” THEY HEARD FROM CHRIST.

    Here it is…

    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

  264. ivan says:

    Dro Tecson:

    YOU SAID:

    Take it easy. I have good news for you.

    I have decided to be kinder to you this time, because I sensed that in addition to your being unreasonable, you seemed to be in a state of panic! I don’t want you to be paranoid, Ivan. All I wanted was an orderly discussion. I only had one question, and in response you bombarded me with a lot of garbage: those rehashed misconceptions about the Catholic faith that were already answered many times over by Catholic apologists. Your recent posts only served to mess things up!

    MY COMMENT:

    Yeah right, man… You CAN NEVER HIDE YOUR BLUFF…lol…hehe…JUST AS YOU CANNOT ESCAPE THE TRUTH THAT…GOD, NOR CHRIST, NOR THE APOSTLES NEVER PREACHED THE SO CALLED TRINITY…

    PROVE YOUR ASSERTION IN BOLD LETTERS, man: “JESUS DECLARED HIMSELF TO BE GOD!”

    Me, in a state of panic? You bet youre right man…he he…MY BILLS ARE PILING UP…who wouldn’t? LOL…

    IS THAT RIGHT AGAIN, MAN? You wanted an ORDERLY discussion and that I bombarded you with garbage??? YOUR LIES REALLY CONSUME YOU, dro…lol…If you really are telling the truth YOU SHOULD HAVE ANSWERED THE ARGUMENT THAT I HAVE BEEN REITERATING a zillion times now…LOL…

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD??? PROVE YOUR ANSWERS.

    —————

    YOU SAID:

    Having said that, let me just forego my “line by line” rebuttal to a lot of your nonsense! Why? Because you FINALLY got the courage to say the ONLY sensible thing that you have ever said in reply to my questions!

    Here, let me quote you:

    “FYI of course you can never find that verse (saying that JESUS IS NOT GOD)…”

    That’s it Ivan. You finally got it! That’s the correct way of answering my question! Congratulations! By admitting this, you somehow rescued your rationality! You deserved some cookie points here hehehe! Just kidding. And oh yes, you even punctuated your answer with an emphatic ASSERTION that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is “a VERSE which DOES NOT EXIST and which CAN NEVER EXIST.” We can never be more grateful to you, Ivan Thank you very much! Now, we are getting somewhere!

    So, how do we make sense out of your confirmation that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is not found in the Bible?

    Well, remember Ivan that you denied the Trinity and many other Catholic teachings on the ground that they are not found in the Bible, right? The word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible and therefore it is false. That’s your way of thinking right? Right! Now, using your own line of thinking, we can ABSOLUTELY say that since the teaching that JESUS IS NOT GOD is not found in the Bible, therefore it is FALSE. The main tenet of the INC therefore, by your own admission, is UNBIBLICAL, and hence, FALSE!!

    In other words Ivan, AS MUCH AS YOU ACCUSED US CATHOLICS OF HAVING A FALSE BELIEF IN THE TRINITY ON THE GROUND THAT IT IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE, YOUR OWN STANDARD ITSELF HAS ALSO CONVICTED YOU OF HAVING A FALSE BELIEF THAT “ JESUS IS NOT GOD” ON THE SAME GROUND THAT IT IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE! THE VERY CORE OF INC BELIEF IS UNBIBLICAL AND THUS FALSE.

    Now, what can you say to this? And please… temper your panic! Be reasonable! Focus on the issue at hand.

    MY COMMENT:

    WA HA HA HA HA…HA HA HA…LOL…

    Man, look at you! What’s this you just posted???

    IT’S OBVIOUS REALLY…THAT’S IT, MAN…IT’S REALLY OBVIOUS….LOL…

    You really can’t answer this argument: DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD???

    Where are those BIBLICAL PROOFS???

    WHERE, dro???

    All you have is arrogance, man…BE REASONABLE…BE OBJECTIVE…

    Now, you are CHALLENGING ME AGAIN WITH ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR CATHOLIC ATTACKS?

    I thought you wanted an ORDERLY “DISCUSSION?”

    THEREFORE, DISCUSS YOUR FALSE BELIEF THE TRINITY… SHOW YOUR COURAGE…lol…lol…

    ———–

    AND, WHAT IS THAT VERY CORE OF THE INC YOU ARE MUDDLED ABOUT??? LOL…

  265. ivan says:

    MANNY CRUZ:

    STILL CHOPPY, man!!!

    All I got from your messages IS THAT YOU WON’T ADMIT that YOU “PUT WORDS INTO OTHER PEOPLE’S MOUTHS.”

    So be it…

    That only proves your IRRATIONALITY…

    So, what should I EXPECT from such IRRATIONAL person like you??? LOL…

    Man, do you really think we can have a civil DISCUSSION??? lol…lol… I guess not…

    ———–

    BUT, I have to comment on this one. Allow me…

    YOU MERELY ASSERTED:

    “BY CALLING HIMSELF AS THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CLAIMED IN EFFECT THAT HE IS GOD.”

    MY COMMENT on your FALSE INTERPRETATION:

    Be reminded, MANNY, that what we are arguing here is: IF CHRIST SAID OR PREACHED THAT HE WAS GOD…

    Now, what you just REPLIED is VERY UNFOUNDED…

    The FACT is, MANNY, in John 17:3, this is what YOU can read —

    “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

  266. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. IVAN:

    “No, Santiago… Man, what Im trying to say here is that God, as well as Christ and the apostles, never ever preached about that so called Trinity (3 persons in one God). Christ, in FACT, DID REVEAL who the ONE TRUE GOD was (John 17:3, John 20:17: Mark 12:28-34…to cite a few). His apostles, too, UNDERSTOOD VERY CLEARLY that the Father was that ONE TRUE GOD.”

    ME:

    OF COURSE IVAN, HOW CAN YOU EXPECT THE APOSTLES TO UNDERSTAND THE TRINITY RIGHT AWAY? DO YOU EXPECT A GRADE ONE PUPIL TO UNDERSTAND CALCULUS??? YOUR EXPECTATION IS RATHER PREPOSTEROUS!

    THE APOSTLES NEVER EVEN COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD WHO JESUS WAS WHILE HE WAS STILL WITH THEM! EVEN AFTER THE RESURECTION, MOST OF THEM WERE STILL CONFUED. IF THE APOSTLES HAD UNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING, THEN IT WOULD MAKE NO SENSE FOR JESUS TO SEND THEM THE HOLY SPIRIT. JESUS SENDS THE HOLY SPIRIT PRECISELY TO LEAD THEM TO THE TRUTH.

    HE SAID:

    “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and HE WILL TELL YOU WHAT IS YET TO COME!” (John 16:13)
    NEEDLESS TO SAY, THE HOLY SPIRIT GRADUALLY LED THE CHURCH TO THE TRUTH THAT THE ONE TRUE GOD IS “FATHER SON AND HOLY SPIRIT”.

    \2. IVAN:

    “1 Cor 8:6 states —“…yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”

    ME:

    IVAN, IF YOU READ CAREFULLY THIS VERSE, YOU WOULD NOTICE THAT “GOD” IS MENTIONED FIRST. “FATHER” IS MENTIONED SECOND. AND IT IS NOT BY MERE ACCIDENT THAT ST PAUL SAID IT IN THIS MANNER, BECAUSE PAUL IS FULLY AWARE THAT THIS IS THE WAY JESUS REVEALED WHO GOD IS. THE ONE TRUE GOD IS REVEALED BY JESUS AS “FATHER”

    IN YOUR PRESENTATION, YOU HAD IT REVERSED! YOU SAID, “Christ Jesus DECLARED it POINT-BLANK that the FATHER WAS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD.” THIS DIFERENCE MAY NOT BE A BIG DEAL FOR YOU SINCE AFTER ALL, GOD AND FATHER ARE ONE AND THE SAME.

    BUT, IN THE PEDAGOGY OF THE PROCLAMATION, JESUS COULD NOT HAVE THE ORDER REVERSED LIKE WHAT YOU DID, BECAUSE IF HE STARTS HIS PREACHING WITH THE INTENTION OF EXPLAINING HOW THE FATHER IS THE ONE TRUE GOD,” THEN THERE IS A REAL DANGER THAT THE PEOPLE MAY CONSTRUE THE FATHER AS A “SEPARATE GOD” OR A “NEW GOD” IN ADDITION TO THE GOD THAT THEY WERE ALREADY ACCUSTOMED TO BELIEVING. BUT JESUS IS A WISE TEACHER. HE STARTED WITH THE NOTION OF GOD, AND THEN GRADUALLY REVEALED HIM TO BE “FATHER.” THAT’S WHY 1 COR 8:6 , Eph 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3, WERE WRITTEN THE WAY THEY WERE!

    UNFORTUNATELY, SINCE THE INC HAS REVERSED THE PEDAGOGY OF THE PROCLAMATION ABOUT THE ONE TRUE GOD, THEY ENDED UP WITH A “SEPARATE GOD.” THEY ENDED UP WITH A “NEW GOD,” A “NEW FATHER” WHOSE SON IS ONLY A MERE HUMAN BEING. INSTEAD OF A GOD WHOSE “WORD WAS GOD” (JOHN 1:1), THEY ENDED UP WITH A GOD WHOSE WORD “WAS NOT GOD”, IN TOTAL CONTRADICTION OF THE SCRIPTURES! IT IS ALSO NO WONDER WHY THEY ENDED UP IN A NEW AND SEPARATE FAKE CHURCH!

  267. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1.) IVAN:

    “MANNY CRUZ:

    STILL CHOPPY, man!!!

    All I got from your messages IS THAT YOU WON’T ADMIT that YOU “PUT WORDS INTO OTHER PEOPLE’S MOUTHS.”

    So be it…

    That only proves your IRRATIONALITY…

    So, what should I EXPECT from such IRRATIONAL person like you??? LOL…

    Man, do you really think we can have a civil DISCUSSION??? lol…lol… I guess not…”

    ME:

    IVAN, TULALA KA NA!

    THAT’S PRETTY OBVIOUS!

    INSTEAD OF A COUNTER ARGUMENT, ALL I GOT FROM YOU IS THIS SILLY AD HOMINEMS..I UNDERSTAND IVAN: YOU CANNOT REASON AGAINST THE TRUTH AND EXPECT TO WIN!

    WE HAVE BEEN HAVING A CIVIL DISCUSSION UP UNTIL YOU POSTED THIS NONSENSE! I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU IVAN. YOU PUT DOWN YOUR BELOVED INC 1914 INCORPORATED PHILIPPINES AND ALL THOSE WHO ARE ROOTING FOR YOU TO CARRY THE BANNER FOR THEM. YOU FAILED THEM IVAN.

    I JUST DON’T KNOW IF SOMEONE FROM THE CENTRAL IN KA-DILIMAN WOULD TAKE YOU TO TASK FOR SUCH A LOUSY PERFORMANCE! SORRY!

  268. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. iVAN:

    “YOU MERELY ASSERTED:

    “BY CALLING HIMSELF AS THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CLAIMED IN EFFECT THAT HE IS GOD.”

    MY COMMENT on your FALSE INTERPRETATION:

    Be reminded, MANNY, that what we are arguing here is: IF CHRIST SAID OR PREACHED THAT HE WAS GOD…”

    ME:

    JESUS CLAIMED TO BE GOD. THAT IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION WHY THE JEWS WANTED TO KILL HIM. UNFORTUNATELY, THIS GLARING REALITY ESCAPED YOUR SHALLOW MIND.

    BUT FOR YOUR SAKE LET US REVISIT THE EPISODE IN JOHN 10:30-33:

    “30 I and the Father are one.”

    “31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

    33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, BECAUSE YOU, A MERE MAN, CLAIM TO BE GOD. ”

    DID YOU HEAR THAT, IVAN? THE JEWS SAID THAT JESUS CLAIMED TO BE GOD. HOWEVER, YOU MIGHT OBJECT THAT THEY WERE JUST MISTAKEN, AFTER ALL, THEY ARE OPPONENTS OF JESUS, RIGHT? WRONG!

    THEY JEWS HEARD IT AND UNDERSTOOD IT CORRECTLY! JESUS, BEING A JEW HIMSELF, KNEW PERFECTLY WELL THE MINDSET OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE. HE MADE A BOLD CLAIM THAT HE IS GOD’S SON, KNOWING FULLY WELL THAT THIS WOULD BE UNDERSTOOD BY THE JEWS AS HIS CLAIMING TO BE GOD. BUT AGAIN YOU MIGHT OBJECT THAT HIS CLAIM TO BE GOD’S SON IS ONLY A METAPHOR. HE IS GOD’S SON IN THE SAME LEVEL THAT WE CALL OURSELVES AS GOD’S CHILDREN, OR SONS IF YOU WILL, RIGHT? WRONG AGAIN!

    WHY? BECAUSE THE JEWS WOULD NEVER HAVE REACTED VIOLENTLY! IF JESUS MEANT THAT HIS SONSHIP WAS NO DIFFERENT FROM THEIR SONSHIP, THERE WOULD BE NO PROBLEM AT ALL! THEY MIGHT JUST AS WELL REACTED IN THIS WAY: “OKAY, YOU ARE GOD’S SON, BUT SO ARE WE! APPEAR! KUMBAYA!

    BUT NO! JESUS’ CLAIM OF SONSHIP IS SOMETHING THAT BELONGS ONLY TO HIM, HE, BEING THE “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.” YOU MAY PUT A STRESS THE WORD “ONLY” AND THERE IS MORE TO HIS CLAIM. HE SAID, IN VERSE 30, THAT “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.” THIS IS THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL’S BACK.

    HOWEVER, YOU MIGHT AGAIN OBJECT THAT JESUS’ UNITY WITH THE FATHER IS MERELY A UNITY OF INTENTION, PURPOSE, OR PLAN, RIGHT? WRONG AGAIN! BECAUSE THIS REASONING COULD NOT EXPLAIN WHY THE JEWS WOULD WANT TO KILL JESUS! JESUS RATHER CLAIMED ONENESS IN BEING, IN FORM, AND IN SUBSTANCE, WITH THE FATHER. IN SHORT, JESUS CLAIMS HE IS GOD, THAT’S THE ONLY REASON WHY THE JEWS WANTED TO KILL HIM! LET THEM SPEAK TO YOU AGAIN IVAN:

    “YOU, A MERE MAN, CLAIM TO BE GOD.”(JOHN 10:33)

    (INTERESTINGLY, FOR CLAIMING THA JESUS IS A MERE MAN AND NOT GOD, THE JEWS MIGHT BE THE FIRST MEMBERS OF THE INC HEHEHE! WHAT A COMPLIMENT!)

    NO LESS THAN JOHN THE APOSTLE HIMSELF CONFIRMED THIS MINDSET OF THE JEWS HE SAID, “”For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.” (John 5:18, NASB).”

    SEE IVAN? IN THE MIND OF JOHN, JESUS IS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.
    I CAN ALREADY ANTICIPATE YOUR OBJECTION REGARDING THIS POINT, BUT LET ME JUST TELL YOU IN ADVANCE THAT JOHN, OR ANY OTHER EVANGELISTS FOR THAT MATTER, DID NOT GIVE ANY IOTA OF INCLINATION THAT THE JEWS WERE MISTAKEN IN THEIR UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE SAID CLAIM OF JESUS. IF EVER THERE WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING ABOUT THIS CLAIM, IT WOULD NOT COME FROM THE JEWS BUT FROM THE INC!

  269. Dro Tecson says:

    I’ve been repeatedly asking Ivan to show us the verse that says “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” As expected, he tried to evade the question – several times. But perhaps feeling the intense pressure of being perceived as incapable of answering a simple question, he finally obliged, albeit grudgingly. He finally admitted that the verse is not found in the Bible. My last post was in response to his confession!

    However, Ivan, unable to make a sensible reply to my last post, made it appear that my post was an evasion to his own question. He was trying hard to employ a subtle but misplaced trick of turning the table around -to no avail. Here is what he merely said:

    “WA HA HA HA HA…HA HA HA…LOL…

    “Man, look at you! What’s this you just posted???

    “IT’S OBVIOUS REALLY…THAT’S IT, MAN…IT’S REALLY OBVIOUS….LOL…

    “You really can’t answer this argument: DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD???”

    As I already mentioned, my last post was in response to HIS ANSWER (that “Jesus is not God” is not found in the Bible), and not to HIS QUESTION! (whether or not Christ said He was God). Anyway, whether he likes it or not, he is now faced with an inescapable dilemma – the reality that the INC’s belief that JESUS IS NOT GOD is UNBIBLICAL. So far, Ivan has not made a reasonable rebuttal to that.

    By the way, his question whether or not Christ say that He was God was already addressed in part by Mr Manny Cruz. And for the sake of Ivan, I would now address this question also.

    Manny Cruz noted that by declaring that He was the Son of God, and by boldly asserting that He and the Father are ONE, Jesus effectively declared that He was God. According to Manny Cruz, that was how the Jews understood the statement of Jesus, and they understood it correctly. Manny is correct.

    Manny also stressed the fact John the apostle has confirmed this when he writes in John 5:18, ”For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.”

    But let me hasten to add that if the Jews were wrong in believing that Jesus has declared himself to be God, John would have been morally obligated to point out this error. But he did not make any correction to the effect that the Jews got it all wrong and that the INC ‘s interpretation is right.

    At this point, a careful reading of the text is warranted. Let’s read again John 5:18,

    ”For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.” (John 5:18,)

    John highlights four positive facts in his statement. One, the Jews were seeking to kill him. That’s true. Two, Jesus literally and legally broke the Sabbath. That’s true. Three, Jesus calls God His Father. That is very true. And four, JESUS MAKES HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.”That, is very, very true!

    We can appreciate all the more John’s verse if we view it as a unified whole as he puts together four TRUTHS in a single statement.

    On the other hand, if we are going to believe in Felix Manalo’s private interpretation of John 5:18, the text would be written somehow like this:

    ”For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, [but they wrongly believed that Jesus was] MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.” (John 5:18,)

    With the fourth statement becoming false, we would come up with a jumbled, topsy turvy mixture of truth and falsehood in just one statement, completely shattering the unified integrity of the text itself.

    That is what Manalo wants us to have!

    But, clearly we know that that is not what John wants us to have. He wants us to have the truth, and the truth is that JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.

  270. ivan says:

    MANNY CRUZ:

    LOL…

    You know what…no matter how you DEFEND that false teaching on the TRINITY, the TRUTH remains that it is UNSCRIPTURAL and therefore FALSE…

    No matter how LONG your “PALUSOT” about that FALSE BELIEF is, the WORDS OF GOD are already RECORDED…yes, in the BIBLE.

    Been there, man, (as a former Catholic) you’ll just exhaust all your resources, PRIMARILY, from the LIES in the CATECHISM of the RCC. You will just use every PALUSOT explanation there is to say and give, including the MYSTERY about the TRINITY. So being a FAITHFUL CATHOLIC, you just have to accept it…BLINDLY…unfortunately. Then, there is also the ORAL TRADITION to make justifications for all those ENDLESS CHAIN OF FALSE CATHOLIC BELIEFS and PRACTICES.

    BUT, Manny, let’s cut to the chase, man…

    WHAT IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER?

    You know very well that CHRIST brought and PREACHED the GOSPEL OF GOD. WHY? It was the WILL OF THE FATHER. Christ REVEALED AND PREACHED who the ONE TRUE TRUE GOD WAS (John 17:3, John 20:17, Mark 12:28-34). SO, what should the TRUE CHRISTIANS or THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD?

    Of course, man, they SHOULD FOLLOW WHAT CHRIST DID…Christ, even it meant DEATH on the cross, REMAINED FAITHFUL TO GOD…to all HIS COMMANDS…TO HIS WILL.

    Christ, as well as the apostles, RECOGNIZED THE FATHER AS THE ONE TRUE GOD (1 Cor 8:6, 2 Cor 1:3, Eph 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3).

    Also, Eph. 4:4-6 states — 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    WHY CHANGE THE TEACHING OF CHRIST or DEVIATE FROM THE GOSPEL OF GOD?

    Of course, MANNY, it has been WARNED…

    In the letter of PAUL to the CHRISTIANS in Galatia (Gal 1:3-9)

    3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    (TAKE NOTE: Apostle Paul said in verse 3 GOD THE FATHER…)

    2 Cor 11:3-4 —

    3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

    (TAKE NOTE: Even at that time, there already existed DECEIVERS whose purpose was to PERVERT THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.)

    CHRIST himself RECOGNIZED AND PREACHED the FATHER as the ONE TRUE GOD, FYI…Then, WHY believe and uphold another teaching??? THINK ABOUT THAT…

    JOHN 8:42-47 says —

    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

    (TAKE NOTE: Christ was speaking about those who WERE NOT OF GOD the FATHER…)

    ————

    YOU SAID:

    OF COURSE IVAN, HOW CAN YOU EXPECT THE APOSTLES TO UNDERSTAND THE TRINITY RIGHT AWAY? DO YOU EXPECT A GRADE ONE PUPIL TO UNDERSTAND CALCULUS??? YOUR EXPECTATION IS RATHER PREPOSTEROUS!

    THE APOSTLES NEVER EVEN COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD WHO JESUS WAS WHILE HE WAS STILL WITH THEM! EVEN AFTER THE RESURECTION, MOST OF THEM WERE STILL CONFUED. IF THE APOSTLES HAD UNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING, THEN IT WOULD MAKE NO SENSE FOR JESUS TO SEND THEM THE HOLY SPIRIT. JESUS SENDS THE HOLY SPIRIT PRECISELY TO LEAD THEM TO THE TRUTH.

    MY COMMENT:

    MERE ASSERTIONS…lol…

    FULL OF FALSE ASSUMPTIONS…

    You even have the nerve ACCUSE the apostles of NOT “COMPLETELY” UNDERSTANDING WHO JESUS WAS???

    Is that in the Bible???

    Look at you, man… BECAUSE of the DECEPTION instilled in you, you have no other option but to LIE…

    THEN, you made another FALSE ASSUMPTION about the REASON for Christ to send the Holy Spirit…

    You don’t even have the BIBLICAL PROOFS to support your claims…LOL…

    ———–

    ANOTHER OF YOUR MERE ASSERTIONS AND FALSE ASSUMPTIONS:

    You said:

    IVAN, IF YOU READ CAREFULLY THIS VERSE, YOU WOULD NOTICE THAT “GOD” IS MENTIONED FIRST. “FATHER” IS MENTIONED SECOND. AND IT IS NOT BY MERE ACCIDENT THAT ST PAUL SAID IT IN THIS MANNER, BECAUSE PAUL IS FULLY AWARE THAT THIS IS THE WAY JESUS REVEALED WHO GOD IS. THE ONE TRUE GOD IS REVEALED BY JESUS AS “FATHER”

    IN YOUR PRESENTATION, YOU HAD IT REVERSED! YOU SAID, “Christ Jesus DECLARED it POINT-BLANK that the FATHER WAS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD.” THIS DIFERENCE MAY NOT BE A BIG DEAL FOR YOU SINCE AFTER ALL, GOD AND FATHER ARE ONE AND THE SAME.

    BUT, IN THE PEDAGOGY OF THE PROCLAMATION, JESUS COULD NOT HAVE THE ORDER REVERSED LIKE WHAT YOU DID, BECAUSE IF HE STARTS HIS PREACHING WITH THE INTENTION OF EXPLAINING HOW THE FATHER IS THE ONE TRUE GOD,” THEN THERE IS A REAL DANGER THAT THE PEOPLE MAY CONSTRUE THE FATHER AS A “SEPARATE GOD” OR A “NEW GOD” IN ADDITION TO THE GOD THAT THEY WERE ALREADY ACCUSTOMED TO BELIEVING. BUT JESUS IS A WISE TEACHER. HE STARTED WITH THE NOTION OF GOD, AND THEN GRADUALLY REVEALED HIM TO BE “FATHER.” THAT’S WHY 1 COR 8:6 , Eph 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3, WERE WRITTEN THE WAY THEY WERE!

    UNFORTUNATELY, SINCE THE INC HAS REVERSED THE PEDAGOGY OF THE PROCLAMATION ABOUT THE ONE TRUE GOD, THEY ENDED UP WITH A “SEPARATE GOD.” THEY ENDED UP WITH A “NEW GOD,” A “NEW FATHER” WHOSE SON IS ONLY A MERE HUMAN BEING. INSTEAD OF A GOD WHOSE “WORD WAS GOD” (JOHN 1:1), THEY ENDED UP WITH A GOD WHOSE WORD “WAS NOT GOD”, IN TOTAL CONTRADICTION OF THE SCRIPTURES! IT IS ALSO NO WONDER WHY THEY ENDED UP IN A NEW AND SEPARATE FAKE

    MY COMMENT:

    Man, haven’t you realized YET how you DEFEND that FALSE TEACHING ON THE TRINITY??? lol…

    YOU ARE MAKING UP STORIES…which is…NOT ONLY THAT THEY ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE…BUT, all also FULL OF LIES…

    BEING the CHRIST, the MESSIAH, THE “SON OF GOD,” JESUS HAD TO PROCLAIM THE TRUTH…THE GOSPEL OF GOD…FYI. Was there any inhibition on his part, to PROCLAIM WHO REALLY WAS THAT ONE TRUE GOD??? Think about it…Christ was CRUCIFIED because of the TRUTH that the JEWS DID NOT UNDERSTOOD…please READ over and over again the whole chapters of John 8 and John 10…

    ————–

    YOUR FALSE INTERPRETATION AND ASSUMPTION:

    You said:

    JESUS CLAIMED TO BE GOD. THAT IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION WHY THE JEWS WANTED TO KILL HIM. UNFORTUNATELY, THIS GLARING REALITY ESCAPED YOUR SHALLOW MIND.

    BUT FOR YOUR SAKE LET US REVISIT THE EPISODE IN JOHN 10:30-33:

    “30 I and the Father are one.”

    “31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

    33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, BECAUSE YOU, A MERE MAN, CLAIM TO BE GOD. ”

    MY COMMENT:

    Where can you read IN THE WHOLE CHAPTER OF JOHN 10 that Christ (himself) CLAIMED to be God???

    The TRANSLATION (verse 33) you cited CANNOT EVEN PROVE what you are claiming…CHRIST CLAIMED THAT HE WAS GOD??? Oh come on, man…Read still…FOCUS…YOU MUST READ THE FOLLOWING VERSES…DO NOT IGNORE THEM…lol…lol…

    verses 34-39: (READ CAREFULLY…TRY TO UNDERSTAND)

    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

    TAKE NOTE…What was Christ referring to when he said “IS IT NOT WRITTEN IN YOUR LAW, ‘I said, “You are gods'”?…

    He was referring to PSALMS 82:6 which states —

    6 I said, “You are gods,
    And all of you are children of the Most High.

    and 7 says:

    7 But you shall die like men,
    And fall like one of the princes.”

    You see that was the Jews were accusing Christ of…DO YOU GET IT???

    Christ WAS PROCLAIMING himself to be the “SON OF GOD”… In Psalms 82:6 “children of the Most High” or in another translation “SONS OF THE MOST HIGH” or “SONS OF GOD.”

    That is why, as I told you, READ THE FOLLOWING REMARKS FROM CHRIST… Verse 36 — 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

    DON’T REMAIN BLIND, man…

    ————

    And, yes, that again “I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE” statement of Christ…

    Manny, LOL…LOL… DID CHRIST CLAIM OR SAY THAT HE WAS GOD in that verse??? Oh come on, man…LOL…Read the WHOLE CHAPTER…Understand the CONTEXT…MOST IMPORTANTLY, DO NOT ADD TO WHAT IS ALREADY WRITTEN…

    John 10:25-30 —

    25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

    FROM THE BIBLE PASSAGES ABOVE, DID CHRIST SAY THAT HE WAS GOD…OR, HE AND THE FATHER WERE ONE GOD???

    With careful examination, you can never deduce the TRINITY in there…WHY??? Christ was talking about HIS WORKS that HE DID IN HIS FATHER’S NAME…THE CARING FOR THE FLOCK…THEY ARE ONE IN THAT WORK OF CARING FOR THE FLOCK…

    —————

    YOU MERELY ASSERTED: (LOL…lol)

    THEY JEWS HEARD IT AND UNDERSTOOD IT CORRECTLY! JESUS, BEING A JEW HIMSELF, KNEW PERFECTLY WELL THE MINDSET OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE. HE MADE A BOLD CLAIM THAT HE IS GOD’S SON, KNOWING FULLY WELL THAT THIS WOULD BE UNDERSTOOD BY THE JEWS AS HIS CLAIMING TO BE GOD. BUT AGAIN YOU MIGHT OBJECT THAT HIS CLAIM TO BE GOD’S SON IS ONLY A METAPHOR. HE IS GOD’S SON IN THE SAME LEVEL THAT WE CALL OURSELVES AS GOD’S CHILDREN, OR SONS IF YOU WILL, RIGHT? WRONG AGAIN!

    My COMMENT:

    The TRUTH IS…the JEWS KNEW AND UNDERSTOOD their accusations against Christ…

    39 And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

    Mt. 27:41-43 —

    41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said, 42 “He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. 43 He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

    AGAIN, Manny, WHAT WAS THAT “CHALLENGE” or MOCKERY for Christ???

    43 He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

    ————-

    AND YES, that false interpretation of John 1:1…

    Due to time constraints, I have to say to you “DON’T BE LAZY” (coming from your own words)…Just search for my detailed answer to that in my past discussions with other Catholic defenders here… You know how to do that, right? LOL…

    Anyway, just a short reply… John 1:1 speaks about the FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD about Christ Jesus.

    THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine. (John 1:1, James Moffatt New Testament)

    In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. (John 1:1, Goodspeed New Testament)

    ALSO,

    Romans 1:2-4 —

    2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

  271. ivan says:

    MANNY CRUZ:

    Continuation…LOL…lol…

    And yet another one of those MISINTERPRETATIONS of the Catholic Church…

    YOU SAID:

    NO LESS THAN JOHN THE APOSTLE HIMSELF CONFIRMED THIS MINDSET OF THE JEWS HE SAID, “”For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.” (John 5:18, NASB).”

    MY COMMENT:

    Man, from that PHRASE alone…MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD… the FATHER is already IDENTIFIED as that ONE GOD…not JESUS… Do you have to ASSUME again that CHRIST was CLAIMING to be GOD???

    READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER…

    The Jews got really INFURIATED because, according to them, Christ BROKE the Sabbath, and, he was EVEN claiming to be the SON OF GOD…

    John 5:16-18 —

    16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    TAKE NOTE how Christ answered the Jews who were persecuting him on the day of Sabbath: “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

    Additionally, be reminded that Christ said in verse 30:

    30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

  272. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. iVAN:

    “You know what…no matter how you DEFEND that false teaching on the TRINITY, the TRUTH remains that it is UNSCRIPTURAL and therefore FALSE…”

    ME:

    SO, THE TRUTH ALSO REMAINS THAT YOUR MAIN BELIEF THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” IS, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, UNSCRIPTURAL AND THEREFORE FALSE. REMEMBER IVAN, YOUR OWN WORDS HAS ALREADY CONVICTED YOU ONCE, AND IT IS CONVICTING YOU AGAIN HERE. AND NOW.

    2. IVAN:

    “No matter how LONG your “PALUSOT” about that FALSE BELIEF is, the WORDS OF GOD are already RECORDED…yes, in the BIBLE.”

    ME:

    THE WORDS OF GOD ARE ALREADY RECORDED…YES, IN THE BIBLE…AND YOUR FALSE BELIEF THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” IS NOT RECORDED THERE. THE TRUTH OF THE TRINITY IS RECORDED IN THE BIBLE, BUT YOU ARE BLIND TO IT SINCE YOU HAVE ABSORBED THE LIES OF THE FAKE ANGEL FELIX MANALO.

    3. IVAN:

    “Been there, man, (as a former Catholic) you’ll just exhaust all your resources, PRIMARILY, from the LIES in the CATECHISM of the RCC. You will just use every PALUSOT explanation there is to say and give, including the MYSTERY about the TRINITY. So being a FAITHFUL CATHOLIC, you just have to accept it…BLINDLY…unfortunately. Then, there is also the ORAL TRADITION to make justifications for all those ENDLESS CHAIN OF FALSE CATHOLIC BELIEFS and PRACTICES”

    ME:

    THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, BEING THE TRUE CHURCH, IS THE ONLY ONE THAT FOLLOWS THE BIBLE IN ITS ENTIRETY. EXAMPLE, ST PAUL EXHORTS US IN 2 THESS 2:15,

    “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our SPOKEN WORD or BY OUR LETTER.”

    OKAY, IVAN… LET US SAY YOU HAVE KEPT THE LETTER, THE BIBLE, WHICH YOU UNDENIABLY RECEIVED FROM US. BUT THE BIG QUESTION IS, HAVE YOU ALSO KEPT THE “SPOKEN WORD” THAT ST. PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT? OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE IGNORANT OF THIS THING. BUT FOR YOUR INFORMATION, IT IS ALSO KNOWN AS “ORAL TRADITION.” IN FAITHFULNESS TO ST PAULS’ EXHORTATION, WE KEPT BOTH: THE BIBLE AND ORAL TRADITIONS.

    UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, YOU SIMPLY FOLLOWED THE UNBIBLICAL “SOLA SCRIPTURA” OF MARTIN LUTHER, AND YOU REJECTED ST. PAUL.

    4. IVAN:

    “BUT, Manny, let’s cut to the chase, man…

    WHAT IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER?”

    ME:

    THE WILL OF THE FATHER DOES NOT INCLUDE THE SENDING OF A FAKE ANGEL THAT PREACHES AN UNBIBLICAL DOCTRINE THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” WHILE AT THE SAME TIME REJECTING THE ORAL TRADITIONS THAT ST. PAUL WAS ASKING EVERYONE TO TO KEEP.

    5. IVAN:

    “You know very well that CHRIST brought and PREACHED the GOSPEL OF GOD. WHY? It was the WILL OF THE FATHER. Christ REVEALED AND PREACHED who the ONE TRUE TRUE GOD WAS (John 17:3, John 20:17, Mark 12:28-34). SO, what should the TRUE CHRISTIANS or THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD?”

    ME:

    YOUR QUESTION HERE IS TRUE TO YOUR NAME, THAT IS, INC AS IN INCOMPLETE… BECAUSE YOU HAVE THROWN AWAY AN IMPORTANT PART OF APOSTOLIC TEACHING, THAT IS, ORAL TRADITIONS! KULANG-KULANG KAYO… HAHAHAHA!

    6. IVAN:

    “Of course, man, they SHOULD FOLLOW WHAT CHRIST DID…Christ, even it meant DEATH on the cross, REMAINED FAITHFUL TO GOD…to all HIS COMMANDS…TO HIS WILL.”

    ME:

    OF COURSE WE HAVE TO FOLLOW CHRIST AND HIS APOSTLES. THAT’S WHY WE KEPT THE “LETTER”, OUR BIBLE, AND THE “SPOKEN WORD”, WHICH WE ALSO CALL “ORAL TRADITIONS.” WE FOLLOWED CHRIST, BUT THE INC FOLLOWED A FALSE PROPHET THAT POSTURES AS AN ANGEL WITH “LIBOG” AND “ANGHIT” HEHEHE!

    7. IVAN:

    “Christ, as well as the apostles, RECOGNIZED THE FATHER AS THE ONE TRUE GOD (1 Cor 8:6, 2 Cor 1:3, Eph 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3).

    Also, Eph. 4:4-6 states — 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

    ME:

    YES, ALL THOSE VERSES THAT YOU QUOTED DO NOT SAY THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” IT IS ONLY YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION OF THE TEXTS THAT MISLED YOU TO BELIEVE SO!

    8. IVAN:

    “WHY CHANGE THE TEACHING OF CHRIST or DEVIATE FROM THE GOSPEL OF GOD?”

    ME:

    YES INDEED. WHY,OH WHY, DID YOU REJECT THE “SPOKEN WORD” THAT THE BIBLE ASKED YOU TO KEEP? WHY? AND WHY DID YOU DEVIATE FROM THE UNIVERSAL CHRISTIAN CONFESSION THAT JESUS IS GOD AND AND BELIEVE IN AN UNBIBLICAL ARIAN INVENTION THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD”? WHY? IVAN?

  273. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. IVAN:

    “Of course, MANNY, it has been WARNED…”

    ME:

    YES IVAN. THE WARNINGS IN GALATIANS 1:3-9 IS FOR US NOT TO FOLLOW THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF A FAKE ANGEL THAT PREACHES A NEW ARIAN GOSPEL THAT SAYS :JESUS IS NOT GOD”

    2. IVAN:

    “In the letter of PAUL to the CHRISTIANS in Galatia (Gal 1:3-9)”

    ME:

    OK. LETS BREAK IOT DOWN LINE BY LINE:

    “3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,”

    GOD THE FATHER AND OUR “LORD” JESUS CHRIST. HERE, JESUS IS “LORD.” IT DOES NOT SAY “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” OK?

    “4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”

    GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN (1 TIM 4:10). JESUS IS THE SAVIOR. JESUS IS GOD. AMEN TO THAT!

    ” 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.”

    TROUBLE MAKERS HAVE BEEN AROUND SINCE APOSTOLIC TIMES, EVEN UP TO THIS DAY. THEIR FOREFATHERS WERE THE JEWS, THE KILLERS OF JESUS WHO DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE IS GOD. “YOU, A MERE MAN, CLAIM TO BE GOD” (JOHN 15:18), THEY SAY.

    IN THE THIRD CENTURY, A CATHOLIC PRIEST NAMED ARIUS PREACHED A NEW AND TOTALLY DIFFERENT GOSPEL THAT PERVERTED THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST BY SAYING THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD”. THIS CREATED SO MUCH TROUBLE FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH. IN RESPONSE, THE CHURCH CONVOKED A COUNCIL AT NICEA, FOLLOWING THE PROTOTYPE COUNCIL IN JERUSALEM MANY YEARS BEFORE (SEE ACTS 15) TO SETTLE THE WHOLE CONTROVERSY. ARIUS WAS CONDEMNED AS A HERETIC. THEN CAME FELIX MANALO, THE SECOND COMING OF ARIUS IN 1914. SINCE THEN THE INC HAS BEE ATTACKING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, CREATING TROUBLE FOR THE CHURCH ALMOST ON A DAILY BASIS.

    SO YOU ARE RIGHT IVAN. WE HAVE BEEN WARNED! THOSE WHO WERE NOT STEADFAST AMONG US ENDED UP JOINING IN THE INC.

    ” 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9″

    LUCKILY FOR MOST OF US CATHOLICS, WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN SOMEONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF AN ANGEL. BECAUSE WE HOLD FAST TO THE TRADITIONS HANDED DOWN TO US FROM THE APOSTLES, BOTH THE “SPOKEN WORD” AND THE “LETTER.” (2 THESS 2:15)

    “9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

    YES. WE ACCURSED AIRUS BEFORE, AND WE ACCURSED FELIX MANALO NOW.

    3. IVAN:

    “(TAKE NOTE: Apostle Paul said in verse 3 GOD THE FATHER…)”

    ME:

    TAKE NOTE IVAN, THE APOSTLE PAUL DID NOT SAY IN VERSE 3 THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD”. IS THAT CLEAR TO YOU?

  274. ivan says:

    Dro Tecson:

    Your SENTIMENTS are showing…HE HE…lol…

    BIBLICAL PROOFS ARE MUCH PREFERRED IN THIS DISCUSSION if you are REALLY sincere with that “ORDER” of yours…LOL…

    In spite of all the PROOFS I’ve shown, you are still STUBBORN as ever. You even LIE that I am the one who EVADE questions?!!!

    Dro Tecson, I advise you to go in front of a mirror and do this test… Tell this to YOURSELF:

    Am I…telling the TRUTH…THE WHOLE TRUTH…and NOTHING but THE TRUTH??? Then, SMILE… he he…lol…lol… then you will realize IF YOU ARE REALLY TELLING THE WHOLE TRUTH…LOL…Come on do it…DONT be shy…LOL…

    Kidding aside…HAVE I EVADED ANY OF YOUR QUESTION??? I don’t think so…THAT’S ONLY YOUR WISHFUL THINKING…a FIGMENT OF YOUR IMAGINATION…

    Let me remind you again, dro tecson, that I was a FORMER CATHOLIC. I tell you I was not just a “Sunday Catholic.” I also used to defend that FALSE FAITH in places where I’m sure YOU WOULD NOT DARE GO… I know where your arguments are heading to… SO don’t give the burden to me of EXPLAINING THINGS FOR YOU… As I said about your challenge “Jesus is not God” verse, EXPLAIN IT YOURSELF IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO EXPLAIN OR DISCUSS. That is not my call. MAMIMILOSOPO KA LANG FOR SURE KASI…he he…LOL…

    What I wanted for us to have is a DISCUSSION of FACTS found in the Bible…

    NOW, where are your BIBLICAL PROOFS???

    ARE YOU A COWARD (just rephrasing your own words)??? he he he…LOL

    SHOW YOUR COURAGE NOW…

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD??? PROVE IT… DO NOT ASSUME…

    ——

    YOU SAID:

    However, Ivan, unable to make a sensible reply to my last post, made it appear that my post was an evasion to his own question. He was trying hard to employ a subtle but misplaced trick of turning the table around -to no avail.

    MY COMMENT:

    Oh man, that’s just your opinion…but of course BASELESS…just like your FALSE BELIEFS…

    WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER??? lol… I thought you said: “JESUS DECLARED HIMSELF TO BE GOD!”

    Where is that in the Bible???

    YOU REALLY DON’T GET IT, DO YOU?… You’re still arguing that there is no verse in the Bible saying that Jesus is not God for you to defend the FALSE TRINITY DOCTRINE… IMAGINE THAT! Man, after all the pronouncements from Christ and the apostles that the FATHER IS THAT “ONE GOD,” you still INSIST your own FORMULATED ONE GOD…lol…lol…

    PLEASE READ AGAIN JOHN 8:42-47… be ENLIGHTENED…

    ——–

    YOU SAID:

    As I already mentioned, my last post was in response to HIS ANSWER (that “Jesus is not God” is not found in the Bible), and not to HIS QUESTION! (whether or not Christ said He was God). Anyway, whether he likes it or not, he is now faced with an inescapable dilemma – the reality that the INC’s belief that JESUS IS NOT GOD is UNBIBLICAL. So far, Ivan has not made a reasonable rebuttal to that.

    MY COMMENT:

    WHAT??? ha ha…LOL… PAMIMILOSOPO LANG KAYA MO…lol…

    WHAT ARE YOU IMPLYING HERE, dro tecson? SINCE one cannot find a verse saying Jesus is not God, it is also tantamount to say that the TRINITY is already TRUE??? Are you trying to be funny??? Dro, IS THAT RIGHT? Is that how you look at THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD?

    CHRIST Jesus already revealed who that ONE TRUE GOD IS…FYI…and BE REMINDED what Christ has is the GOSPEL OF GOD. He was sent by God (FATHER) for the purpose of TEACHING THE GOSPEL or the KINGDOM OF GOD. (Luke 4:43 — but He said to them, “I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent.”)

    THIS IS WRITTEN in John 17:1-3 —

    1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    TAKE NOTE: Christ, at this moment, was praying to the FATHER. He (Christ) uttered these words:

    “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

    NOW, WOULD YOU STILL HAVE YOUR OWN FALSE BELIEF ON THE TRINITY (3 persons in ONE GOD) even IF CHRIST DECLARED THAT THE FATHER WAS THE ONLY TRUE GOD???

    Wow!!! You even deny the TOTAL APOSTASY, huh??? lol…lol…

    Be reminded of this one… John 3:16 — For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    HOW CAN YOU NOW SAY THAT YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST WHEN YOU UPHOLD A TEACHING THAT IS VERY MUCH DIFFERENT FROM HIS??? Think about that…

    ——-

    You said:

    By the way, his question whether or not Christ say that He was God was already addressed in part by Mr Manny Cruz. And for the sake of Ivan, I would now address this question also.

    Manny Cruz noted that by declaring that He was the Son of God, and by boldly asserting that He and the Father are ONE, Jesus effectively declared that He was God. According to Manny Cruz, that was how the Jews understood the statement of Jesus, and they understood it correctly. Manny is correct.

    MY COMMENT:

    He he…NOW your are hiding under the saya of Manny Cruz…HOW COURAGEOUS YOU ARE! lol…

    EXAMINE THAT VERSE again, dro, wherein Christ says he and the Father are ONE…DON’T BE BLIND…
    DID CHRIST SAY HE WAS GOD??? DID HE SAY HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE GOD? UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT, dro! Bear in mind also the question of the Jews (in that chapter) IF JESUS WAS THE CHRIST OR THE MESSIAH…

    You even reiterated THAT FALSE ASSUMPTION:

    YOU SAID “According to Manny Cruz, that was how the Jews understood the statement of Jesus, and they understood it correctly. Manny is correct.”

    READ and give it a CAREFUL EXAMINATION… PSALMS 82:6-7…HERE IT IS…

    6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
    you are all sons of the Most High.’
    7 But you will die like mere mortals;
    you will fall like every other ruler.” (NIV)

    6 I said, “You are gods,
    And all of you are children of the Most High.
    7 But you shall die like men,
    And fall like one of the princes.” (NKJV)

    ————

    ANOTHER FALSE INTERPRETATION:

    YOU SAID:

    Manny also stressed the fact John the apostle has confirmed this when he writes in John 5:18, ”For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.”

    But let me hasten to add that if the Jews were wrong in believing that Jesus has declared himself to be God, John would have been morally obligated to point out this error. But he did not make any correction to the effect that the Jews got it all wrong and that the INC ‘s interpretation is right.

    MY COMMENT:

    READ MY REPLY TO MANNY…he he…lol…

    FYI, again, the Jews were INFURIATED about Christ’s DECLARATION THAT HE WAS THE “SON OF GOD.” THEY KNEW AND UNDERSTOOD VERY WELL THEIR CHARGES AGAINST CHRIST…

    AND, FYI FYI FYI apostle John did not have to correct anything because he, as well as the other apostles, knew WHO JESUS WAS, WHO THE ONE TRUE GOD WAS, AND WHY THE JEWS WERE AFTER CHRIST.

    ———

    YOU ASSERTED:

    But, clearly we know that that is not what John wants us to have. He wants us to have the truth, and the truth is that JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.

    MY COMMENT:

    WHAT???!!!

    WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS THAT??? JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD?

    Come on, man…what ANOTHER LIE you are ASSERTING here.

    First of all that PHRASE “making himself equal with God” already indicates that the FATHER IS THAT GOD that the Jews were referring to…

    I told you to READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER OF JOHN 8. YOU DID NOT, DID YOU, dro??? HA HA HA…As MANNY CRUZ SAY — DON’T BE LAZY…lol…lol…

    The Jews were ALSO CLAIMING THAT THEIR FATHER WAS GOD AND THAT THEY WERE OF GOD. Read JOhn 8, NOW…

    AND NOW YOU EVEN ACCUSE CHRIST OF MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD??? How could you? The nerve, man!!!…WHAT THE NERVE YOU HAVE!!!

    See HOW DELUDED YOUR MINDS ARE?!

    AND YOU STILL DENY THE TOTAL APOSTASY, HUJ??? LOL…LOL…LOL…

    FYI, Christ NEVER EVER DID TRY MAKE HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD…FYI…THAT IS TOO MUCH, dro…Just to DEFEND THAT FALSE TRINITY BELIEF, YOU REALLY HAVE TO LIE THAT MUCH…

    IN FACT, Christ was constantly saying that the FATHER (GOD) is GREATER than him (Christ)…(John 10:29, John 13:16, John 14:28, John 15:20).

    CONTEMPLATE ON JOHN 8:42-47…

  275. Dro Tecson says:

    Ivan,

    Let us make things simple here Ivan. I’ll just trust our intelligent readers to see how convoluted your arguments are. I don’t need to pounce on that.

    But let me back track a little bit. Between you and me, it was I who FIRST asked you – though you shamelessly denied it – to show us a verse that supposedly says “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” That was a simple question that you tried hard to dodge. Instead of giving me a straightforward answer, you simply went hysterical and tried to turn the table around by throwing your own unwarranted questions. And the funny thing is that when you finally answered it- you called it a bluff.

    Anyway, this issue has been settled by your own admission that your doctrine that says “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is UNBIBLICAL. And you knew very well that if your admission is carried to its logical end using your man-made principle of “sola scriptura”, the only conclusion that would glaringly stare you in the face is that your doctrine is FALSE. You will therefore find yourself in a deep CONTRADICTION. I’m sure this realization has given you so much discomfort, a fact that you wouldn’t want to admit. DENIAL would be your only response.

    Nevertheless, I would like to thank you once again for your…well… nervous answer. In any case, this indicates that our discussion is leading to somewhere. We are getting there. And to really get there, allow me first ask you my next two questions:

    1.) WHY WAS JESUS KILLED BY THE JEWS?
    2.) WHAT WAS HIS CRIME?

    For your guidance Ivan, you don’t need too many words to answer these questions. One or two sentences will do. So come on, Ivan, just give me a short straightforward answer! I just hope I don’t sound too demanding! Ok? GO!

  276. ivan says:

    Dro tecson:

    Me, nervous??? LOL..lol…Of course, I am, dude…because I am not that knowledgeable of all the Bible verses that are needed to explain IN FULL and IN CLARITY the doctrine that we INC members uphold. And we, common INC members, are not even encouraged to do this kind of argumentation. But I am doing this because I just can’t stand the UNFOUNDED attacks against the INC from those DELUDED persons such as you…lol…

    You even ACCUSE me of many things, man! he he he…LOL… coward, hysterical, nervous, name it…LOL…

    You don’t even know me, man… for Rockets burger’s sake!!! LOL…

    Anyways, for your indulgence, since NOW you don’t refer to Manny’s posts and my replies to them, let us discuss your issues as if nothing has already been discussed… And, of course, for your ENLIGHTENMENT as well… but, DON’T EXPECT me to just answer your FOOLISH argument…LOL…

    WHAT’S YOUR PROBLEM AGAIN, MAN???

    Ah, that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” verse which is not found in the Bible.

    See, man?!… How HARD you try just to defend that FALSE TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE?!

    You accuse me of being a COWARD, YET now you don’t have the fishballs to just GO TO THE POINT OF YOUR ARGUMENT. You may not admit it, BUT, man, HULI KA NA SA SARILI MONG BITAG!!! Your bulok style has been used so many many times already.

    LET ME JUST REITERATE THIS:

    OF COURSE, man, YOUR PAMIMILOSOPO that one cannot find a verse saying Jesus is not God is true…BECAUSE…IN THE FIRST PLACE, the early nation of God,ISRAEL, the PROPHETS OF GOD, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, as well as the APOSTLES WHO RECORDED THE LIFE OF CHRIST…THEY KNEW AND UNDERSTOOD VERY VERY WELL WHO JESUS WAS and WHO THE ONE TRUE GOD WAS.

    THAT ONE TRUE GOD IS NO OTHER THAN THE FATHER ALONE…

    IN 1 Chronicles 29:10, this is stated —

    Therefore David blessed the Lord before all the assembly; and David said:

    “Blessed are You, Lord God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever.

    The ONE GOD (FATHER) preached by the prophets of God in the OLD TESTAMENT is the SAME ONE GOD (FATHER) that is still being preached by Christ and the apostles in the NEW TESTAMENT. That ONE TRUE GOD also is now being taught by the IGLESIA NI CRISTO.

    There were no arguments of THAT FORMULATED TRINITY in the Bible…not until the CATHOLIC CHURCH FULFILLED THE “TOTAL APOSTASY” by INTRODUCING your FORMULATED ONE GOD. You cannot deny the FACT that that TRINITY DOCTRINE was only ESTABLISHED in 325 A.D. SEVERAL YEARS HAD ALREADY PASSED AFTER THE DEATH OF THE LAST APOSTLE… Keep that in your head, man…SMILE…LOL…LOL…

    That is why, dro tecson, raising that kind of argument is so FOOLISH…

    Christ, during HIS MINISTRY, PREACHED the GOSPEL OF GOD. That was the very purpose why God sent him. (Luke 4:43). MOST IMPORTANTLY, CHRIST TEACHES THAT THE FATHER IS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD.”

    That GOSPEL OF GOD is what YOU and ME should be discussing here IF YOU REALLY ARE SINCERE ABOUT THAT “ORDER”…lol…lol…

    John 17:1-3 —

    1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    And, the apostles, too, upheld that teaching of Christ about the FATHER as the “ONE TRUE GOD.”

    Eph. 4:4-6 —

    4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    1 Cor 8:6 —

    6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

    ONE MORE THING…just to make a point:

    SO, basing from your bulok style of argument, SINCE there is also no verse in the Bible saying Paul, John, or Peter ARE NOT GOD, they can also be considered GOD? SEE MY POINT, dro??? Think about it…

    AND, YOU KNOW WHAT…LET ME SHOW YOU THIS…FOR YOU TO PONDER ON ABOUT THE ONE TRUE GOD WHO NEVER CHANGES (incarnation for the Catholics) EVEN AT THE END OF TIME. Take note that when THAT DAY comes, THE SON (CHRIST) will also be SUBJECT TO HIM (GOD THE FATHER)…

    1 Cor 20-28 —

    20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

    24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

    27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

    REMEMBER: That the SON (Christ) will also be subject to God the Father when the end comes…

    ————-

    ONE MORE THING… you can’t even address the suppose to be a SIMPLE QUESTION until now:

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH HE WAS GOD? OR,

    DID GOD OR CHRIST PREACH THAT “TRINITY DOCTRINE?” OR,

    WE CAN PUT IT THIS WAY,… WHERE IN THE BIBLE WILL YOU FIND THAT THE “TRINITY” IS BEING PREACHED BY GOD, BY CHRIST OR BY THE APOSTLES?

    —————

    AND, then, YOU SAID:

    And to really get there, allow me first ask you my next two questions:

    1.) WHY WAS JESUS KILLED BY THE JEWS?
    2.) WHAT WAS HIS CRIME?

    MY COMMENT:

    Just a thought…lol…lol…WHY KEEP ON JUST ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS OF YOURS? WHY NOT DISCUSS OR EXPLAIN THEM YOURSELF IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO DISCUSS ABOUT THOSE, MAN? lol…lol…LOL…

    Anyways, for your INDULGENCE sake…let’s discuss this…lol..LOL..

    First of all, man, I don’t know if it’s just me, BUT, are your 2 questions CORRECTLY STATED? hehe…LOL…

    Anyways, this is what I said before…the JEWS (the religious authorities then) were really INFURIATED BY CHRIST and REALLY WANTED his death for PROCLAIMING that HE WAS THE “SON OF GOD.”

    And… I DON’T KNOW ABOUT THE SECOND ONE…THAT CRIME YOU ACCUSE CHRIST OF HAVING COMMITTED?…DO YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THAT??? he he…ENLIGHTEN ME, if you may…LOL…

    ———–

    SO, NOW WHAT, dro tecson??? CAN YOU PROVE NOW YOUR ASSERTION THAT JESUS DECLARED HIMSELF TO BE GOD??? DO YOU HAVE THAT COURAGE NOW??? he he…LOL…

    WHERE’S YOUR ANSWER NOW, DRO???…lol…

  277. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1 .IVAN:

    “You know what…no matter how you DEFEND that false teaching on the TRINITY, the TRUTH remains that it is UNSCRIPTURAL and therefore FALSE”

    ME:

    AHEM! YOU KNOW IVAN…NO MATTER HOW YOU DEFEND THAT FALSE TEACHING THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” THE TRUTH REMAINS THAT IT IS UNSCRIPTURAL AND THEREFORE FALSE. HAHAHAHA!

    2. IVAN:

    “No matter how LONG your “PALUSOT” about that FALSE BELIEF is, the WORDS OF GOD are already RECORDED…yes, in the BIBLE.”

    ME:

    WHAT IS RECORDED IN THE BIBLE IS THAT JESUS “WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD” HAHAHAHA! SEE JOHN 5:18. WHAT IS NOT RECORDED IN THE BIBLE, AND YOU KNOW IT VERY WELL, IS THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” HAHAHAHA!

    3.IVAN

    “Been there, man, (as a former Catholic) you’ll just exhaust all your resources, PRIMARILY, from the LIES in the CATECHISM of the RCC. You will just use every PALUSOT explanation there is to say and give, including the MYSTERY about the TRINITY. So being a FAITHFUL CATHOLIC, you just have to accept it…BLINDLY…unfortunately.”

    ME:

    IVAN, LISTEN CAREFULLY…”MERE ASSERTION” HAHAHAHA!

    4.IVAN:

    “Then, there is also the ORAL TRADITION to make justifications for all those ENDLESS CHAIN OF FALSE CATHOLIC BELIEFS and PRACTICES.”

    ME:

    YOU SAID YOU ARE A FORMER CATHOLIC. NOW YOU ARE SHOWING THAT INDEED YOU ARE AN IGNORANT FORMER CATHOLIC. FOR YOUR INFORMATION, THE BIBLE SPEAKS ABOUT ORAL TRADITIONS. PAUL SAYS IN 2 THESS 2:15, “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS that you were taught by us, either by our SPOKEN WORD or by our LETTER.”

    SEE THAT? READ AGAIN. OK FINE. YOU HAVE THE LETTER. TO BE SPECIFIC, YOU HAVE “OUR LETTER” – THAT IS, “OUR BIBLE.” NOW, WHERE IS YOUR “SPOKEN WORD” OR THE ORAL TRADITIONS THAT ST PAUL WANTS YOU TO KEEP? OBVIOUSLY YOU DON’T HAVE IT, BECAUSE YOUR SOLA SCRIPTURA WONT ALLOW IT.

    OH BY THE WAY, I ALMOST FORGOT. YOU HAVE KEPT THE SPOKEN LIES OF MANALO. THAT’S THE ONLY THING THAT YOU HAVE! HAHAHAHA!

    to be continued…..

  278. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. IVAN:

    “You know very well that CHRIST brought and PREACHED the GOSPEL OF GOD. WHY? It was the WILL OF THE FATHER. Christ REVEALED AND PREACHED who the ONE TRUE TRUE GOD WAS (John 17:3, John 20:17, Mark 12:28-34). SO, what should the TRUE CHRISTIANS or THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD?”

    ME:

    IVAN, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE PEOPLE ALREADY KNEW THAT GOD IS A FATHER TO THEM. YOU CAN VERIFY THIS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ISAIAH 63: 16, “But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name” MALACHI 2:10 “Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?

    BUT, THE PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THE FATHERHOOD OF GOD IN A LIMITED AND ANALOGOUS WAY. GOD IS FATHER BECAUSE HE IS CREATOR, PROVIDER, PROTECTOR, ETC ETC

    YES, CHRIST ALSO TAUGHT THAT THE ONE TRUE GOD IS A FATHER. BUT WHAT YOU, IVAN, HAVE MISERABLY FAILED TO SEE IS THAT HIS REVELATION OF THE FATHERHOOD OF GOD WENT BEYOND THE COMMON UNDERSTANDING OF THE PEOPLE OF HIS TIME. FOR JESUS, GOD IS FATHER FIRST AND FOREMOST BECAUSE HE HAS A SON, AND JESUS IS THIS SON, AND THIS SON AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. (JOHN 10:30)

    JESUS THEN WENT ON TO DESCRIBE HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ONE TRUE GOD WHOM HE CALLED HIS FATHER. HE DESCRIBED IT IN A WAY THAT IS SO NEW, SO RADICAL, AND SO SHOCKING TO HIS LISTENERS! (SEE JOHN 8: 14-58, 5:15-47, 10:30, 14:6, 9;):

    A. GOD IS HIS WITNESS (v 18)
    B. HE STANDS WITH THE FATHER (v 16)
    C. KNOWING HIM IS KNOWING THE FATHER (v 19)
    D. HE CAME FROM THE FATHER (v 23)
    E. HIS WORDS ARE THE WORDS OF THE FATHER (v 28)
    F. HE LIBERATES PEOPLE FROM SIN (v 36)
    G. TO LOVE THE FATHER IS TO LOVE JESUS (v 42)

    H. HE IS GLORIFIED BY THE FATHER (v 54)

    I. HIS WORK IS THE FATHERS WORK ( John 5: 17, 19-20)
    J. EQUAL WITH GOD (v 18)
    K. JESUS RAISES THE DEAD AND GIVES LIFE (v 21)
    L. HIS JUDGMENT IS THE FATHER’S JUDGEMENT (v 22)
    M. HIS HONOR IS THE FATHER’S HONOR (v23)
    N. HIS WORDS GIVE ETERNAL LIFE (v 24-25)
    O. JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE (John 10:30)
    P. HE IS THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER, 14:6
    Q. TO SEE JESUS IS TO SEE THE FATHER 14: 9

    I DON’T NEED TO TELL YOU IVAN THAT THESE DESCRIPTIONS OF JESUS’S SONSHIP WERE TOO MUCH FOR THE PEOPLE TO HEAR. ALTHOUGH MANY BELIEVED HIM, SOME OUTRIGHTLY REJECTED HIM, “BECAUSE [THEY] HAVE NO ROOM FOR [HIS] WORD” (John 8:37). JESUS SPOKE CLEARLY, BUT THEY IGNORED WHAT HE SAID (John 8:43). HE SPOKE THE TRUTH, BUT THEY DID NOT BELIEVE HIM (John 8:45).

    IT IS VERY CLEAR, IVAN, THAT AMONG THOSE WHO REJECTED, IGNORED, AND DISBELIEVED THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS (ABOUT HIS CLAIM TO BE GOD), WERE THOSE WHO INSISTED THAT JESUS IS JUST A “MERE MAN” DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY HAD HEARD HIM “CLAIM TO BE GOD” (John 10:33). METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING, THESE MISERABLE PEOPLE THEREFORE WERE THE TRUE MEMBERS OF THE INC!!!!!CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU IVAN!!!

  279. I really think the moderator/owner of this blog should step in, like, now… or a few comments ago would have been better. This is getting very bad, much worse than what I can only assume as the owner/moderator’s friend tpc (assumed friendship from mutual link).

    Dear Dro Tecson, it is difficult to gauge you from your responses, however if the bases would only be from your last two statements in proper case, then I would have to say that what your statements are deplorable, and I strongly recommend that you read, pray for, meditate, and understand the dogmatic constitution lumen gentium: if you don’t know where it is, you can find it here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html and then go study the catechism very carefully, and you can look up other important documents.

    I pray that you have not done any harm from your statements, and if you had, well, you should discern what you ought to do. If you can’t, well, I hope the moderator/owner of this blog may help you.

  280. And, of course, needless to say, you also ought to read, pray for, meditate, and understand the dogmatic constitution on divine revelation, http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

    When you understand these two dogmatic constitutions, may you understand what you said above, to use the original phrase of a translated phrase the owner/moderator loves “…gravissime eorum onerata conscientia…”

  281. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. IVAN:

    “Of course, man, they SHOULD FOLLOW WHAT CHRIST DID…Christ, even it meant DEATH on the cross, REMAINED FAITHFUL TO GOD…to all HIS COMMANDS…TO HIS WILL.”

    ME:

    OF COURSE IVAN, WE MUST FOLLOW WHAT CHRIST DID. HE TOLD US TO FOLLOW HIS APOSTLES. HE SAYS, “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”(LK 10:16).

    HIS APOSTLE TOLD US NOT TO FOLLOW AN ANGEL THAT TEACHES A NEW AND DIFFERENT GOSPEL (GAL.1:8). BUT WHAT DID YOU DO? YOU FOLLOWED AND “ANGEL FROM THE PHILIPPINES.” YOU EMBRACED A NEW AND DIFFERENT ARIUS-MADE GOSPEL THAT SAYS “JESUS IS NOT GOD,” DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU KNEW VERY WELL THAT IT IS NOT RECORDED IN THE BIBLE!

    SINCE YOU EMBRACED AN AIRUS INSPIRED DIFFERENT GOSPEL OF ANGEL FELIX MANALO , THEN YOU IN EFFECT HAVE REJECTED ST PAUL IN GALATIAN 1:8. YOU REJECTED ST PAUL, THEN INVIEW OF LUKE 10:16, YOU HAVE REJECTED CHRIST HIMSELF.

    FOR SOMEONE WHO REJECTED CHRIST AND YET CALLS HIMSELF A MEMBER OF AN “IGLESYA NI CRISTO”, IT IS A GREAT AND OUTRAGEOUS OXYMORON!!

  282. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “You even have the nerve ACCUSE the apostles of NOT “COMPLETELY” UNDERSTANDING WHO JESUS WAS???”

    ME:

    YOU ARE NOT READING WELL “OUR” BIBLE IVAN. SO, YOU REALLY BELIEVED THAT THE APOSTLES, DURING THEIR PUBLIC MINISTRY WITH JESUS, HAVE UNDERSTOOD EVERY WORD AND ACTIONS OF JESUS COMPLETELY? HEHEHE! YOU ARE GETTING FUNNIER IVAN.

    JOHN 12:16:

    “At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.”

    AT FIRST THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND ALL THIS. DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT TO YOU, IVAN? HOW MANY TIME DID JESUS ADMONISH HIS APOSTLES FOR THEIR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING? HERE, FOR YOUR SAKE, ARE TWO OF THE MANY EXAMPLES. READ CAREFULLY,

    MATT 16: 8-9, “You of little faith…do you still not understand?
    MK 8:21, “He said to them, do you still not understand?

    SO, DOES IT SOUND LIKE A COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING TO YOU, iVAN?

    WAIT, THERE’S MORE,

    JOHN 16:12-13,

    12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ”

    JESUS HAS MORE TO SAY, BUT HE DOES NOT SAY IT – BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, THE APOSTLES WERE NOT READY TO RECEIVE IT YET. HE RATHER LETS THE SPIRIT DO THE TELLING OF THOSE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME. (AND IN DUE TIME, THE CHURCH, LED BY THE SAME HOLY SPIRIT, HAS COME TO KNOW THAT THE ONE TRUE GOD IS FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT).

    EVEN ST PAUL ADMITTED THAT HIS KNOWLEDGE IS ONLY PARTIAL, AND STILL AWAITING COMPLETION. 1 COR 13:9-13,

    “9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”

    SO, IVAN, DO YOU STILL THINK THAT THE APOSTLES AT THIS POINT ALREADY HAVE A COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS?

    IF YOU SAY YES, THEN I THINK YOU HAVE TO WAKE UP AT THIS POINT, IVAN. IT SEEMS THAT THE LIES OF MANALO AND YOUR FAKE CHURCH HAVE PUT YOU IN A DEEP SLUMBER OF BIBLICAL PROPORTION!

  283. Ivan says:

    Mr Sugon:

    I hope you will still update comments here…

    If you really want the TRUTH to come out, don’t be AFRAID OF CORRECTIONS.

    Don’t you think that the DISHONEST STATEMENT by dro tecson should be CORRECTED???

    You know very well the LIE he made because HE CAN’T AND IS NOT CAPABLE OF GIVING ME ANSWERS BASED ON THE BIBLE. Then, he claims — “Anyway, this issue has been settled by your own admission that your doctrine that says “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is UNBIBLICAL.” WHAT???

    Imagine that Mr Sugon…Is that how you really defend your CATHOLIC FAITH? Through LIES?

    WHEN DID I ADMIT THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD IS UNBIBLICAL? lol…lol…

    Be reminded that he was ASKING FOR A VERSE STATING “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” Of course, as I already explained, it can never be found because IT WAS VERY CLEAR TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN THE BIBLE WHO THEIR ONE TRUE GOD WAS. In spite of clearly explaining that to DRO TECSON, he just ignored them and made HIS DECEPTIVE CONCLUSION on the issue…lol…

    Is it really “UNBIBLICAL” to believe that JESUS IS NOT GOD? Of course NOT, Mr Sugon. WHY? BECAUSE the GOSPEL OF GOD refers to the FATHER as the ONLY TRUE GOD. And having a belief which denies the TRUTH revealed by Christ about the FATHER is the one UNBIBLICAL.

  284. Quirino M. Sugon Jr says:

    Sorry, I was out of the country. I was only able to update the comments today.

  285. Ian Capil says:

    inaaate ng INC ang mga katoliko na may rebulto…sa sentro nila sa diliman, makikitang nakatayo ang rebulto ni Felix Manalo at may pakpak pa… hahaha

  286. Ian Capil says:

    we Catholics are accused by INCs of worshipping idols and making images out of wood, they never understand. But what I cannot understand also is how come in their center at Diliman, they also made a huge statue of Felix Manalo with wings(anghel ba si Manalo?)…e di parang kinakain nila ang mismong sinasabi nila.

  287. Dro says:

    Wants to says:

    “Dear Dro Tecson, it is difficult to gauge you from your responses, however if the bases would only be from your last two statements in proper case, then I would have to say that what your statements are deplorable”

    Dro says:

    Wants to, perhaps you can enlighten me if you can cite specific statements from me that you found deplorable. And be kind enough to tell me why you thought so.

  288. Dro says:

    IVAN SAYS:

    “Don’t you think that the DISHONEST STATEMENT by dro tecson should be CORRECTED???

    “You know very well the LIE he made because HE CAN’T AND IS NOT CAPABLE OF GIVING ME ANSWERS BASED ON THE BIBLE. Then, he claims — “Anyway, this issue has been settled by your own admission that your doctrine that says “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is UNBIBLICAL.” WHAT???”

    DRO SAYS:

    Ivan, you are already complaining! You don’t need Mr. Sugon to correct what you thought was a “dishonest statement” on my part. You can correct it yourself. IBut I understand why you are so uncomfortable at the thought that your doctrine cannot be supported by a verse that says “Jesus is not God.”

    Now, allow me to correct you.

    You now are saying that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is BIBLICAL? Right? Wrong!

    For one, there is no verse in the bible that says “Jesus is not God.” You yourself made an emphatic statement about this by saying that it is “a VERSE which DOES NOT EXIST and which CAN NEVER EXIST.” It is therefore safe to say that is is UNBIBLICAL!

    Have you forgotten that fact that you dismissed the TRINITY on the ground that it is not written in the Bible? Again, let me remind you of your own statement: “You know what…no matter how you DEFEND that false teaching on the TRINITY, the TRUTH remains that it is UNSCRIPTURAL and therefore FALSE”

    The verse that says “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is also unscriptural and therefore FALSE. That, Ivan, is only the logical end of your Sola Scriptura assumption. It is a conclusion brought about by your own standard.

    It is really tough when you are strangled by your own words.

  289. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “Be reminded that he [Dro Tecson] was ASKING FOR A VERSE STATING “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” Of course, as I already explained, it can never be found because IT WAS VERY CLEAR TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD IN THE BIBLE WHO THEIR ONE TRUE GOD WAS. In spite of clearly explaining that to DRO TECSON, he just ignored them and made HIS DECEPTIVE CONCLUSION on the issue…lol…

    ME:

    IVAN, THE STATEMENT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” DOES NOT EXIST AND CAN NEVER EXIST BECAUSE THAT STATEMENT IS FALSE!!!!

    YOUR EXPLANATION IS AT BEST VERY LAME!

    OF COURSE, THE PEOPLE OF GOD KNEW THE ONE TRUE GOD. THEY EVEN KNEW THAT HE IS A FATHER. BUT WHAT THE PEOPLE DID NOT KNOW WAS THAT THIS GOD IS A FATHER FIRST AND FOREMOST BECAUSE HE HAS A SON. HE PROCLAIMED A FATHER THAT CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD APART FROM THE SON, AND THE SON CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD APART FROM THE FATHER. THE FATHER IS SEEN THROUGH THE SON, AND THEY ARE ONE IS SUBSTANCE. THIS IS THE KIND OF GOD THAT JESUS PROCLAIMED, A GOD THAT THE PEOPLE DID NOT CLEARLY KNOW – CONTRARY TO THE ASSUMPTION OF IVAN.

    BY PROCLAIMING THE FATHER IN THE WAY THAT JESUS DID, THE MESSAGE THAT THE PEOPLE CLEARLY GOT WAS THAT JESUS “CLAIMED TO BE GOD”(JOHN 10:33)- AGAIN, CONTRARY TO THE BELIEF OF IVAN AND THE REST OF THE INC!

  290. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    YOU SAID:

    AHEM! YOU KNOW IVAN…NO MATTER HOW YOU DEFEND THAT FALSE TEACHING THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” THE TRUTH REMAINS THAT IT IS UNSCRIPTURAL AND THEREFORE FALSE. HAHAHAHA!

    MY COMMENT:

    First of all, can’t you give any biblical proof to support your claim that to believe Jesus is not God IS “UNSCRIPTURAL” or “UNBIBLICAL”? Man, I believe I’ve given enough proofs (FROM THE BIBLE) that say and teach that the FATHER IS THE “ONE TRUE GOD.”

    WHY IGNORE THOSE BIBLE VERSES I’VE SHOWN YOU??? he he… You really can’t accept the TRUTH that’s why…

    MOREOVER, let me ask you this…HOW DO YOU DEFINE “UNSCRIPTURAL” or “UNBIBLICAL”? Since you have been defending that FALSE TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE, you seem to be INTENTIONALLY DECEIVING yourself on the true meaning of that word…LOL…

    IS IT REALLY “UNSCRIPTURAL” TO BELIEVE that Jesus is not God? Man, I have to remind you again that Christ Jesus HIMSELF is preaching us that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE GOD (John 17:3, John 20:17 and Mark 12:28-34). Look those VERSES up. You know how to find them.

    NOW, do you really think it’s UNSCRIPTURAL to believe that Jesus is not God from those verses??? Come on man, DON’T BE BLIND…

    ————-

    YOU SAID:

    WHAT IS RECORDED IN THE BIBLE IS THAT JESUS “WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD” HAHAHAHA! SEE JOHN 5:18. WHAT IS NOT RECORDED IN THE BIBLE, AND YOU KNOW IT VERY WELL, IS THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” HAHAHAHA!

    MY COMMENT:

    Man, look at you…he he… You cite a Bible verse that you can’t even understand…YOU JUST KEEP ON ASSERTING THINGS! lol… How can you say that “JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD???” Firstly, that verse does not even say that JESUS WAS THE ONE SAYING THAT HE WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD. Actually, the JEWS were the ones accusing Christ of making himself equal with God. That’s the problem with you, man. You don’t know how to refute the BIBLICAL PROOFS that Ive given you.

    When the Jews rebuked Jesus of MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD, they were referring to the FATHER as that GOD… Examine the claim of the JEWS about having a one Father, God.

    John 8:40-41–

    40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

    Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

    Moreover, DID CHRIST REALLY MAKE HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD??? DID HE??? What verse?

    Let me cite you this verse to ENLIGHTEN you… John 14:28 states — 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

    ————–

    YOU SAID:

    YOU SAID YOU ARE A FORMER CATHOLIC. NOW YOU ARE SHOWING THAT INDEED YOU ARE AN IGNORANT FORMER CATHOLIC. FOR YOUR INFORMATION, THE BIBLE SPEAKS ABOUT ORAL TRADITIONS. PAUL SAYS IN 2 THESS 2:15, “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS that you were taught by us, either by our SPOKEN WORD or by our LETTER.”

    MY COMMENT:

    DO YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THE VERSE YOU JUST CITED, man??? HE HE… I guess not…

    Are you (and all the Catholics as well) really STANDING FIRM to the GOSPEL OF GOD preached by the apostles themselves THROUGH their SPOKEN WORD or THEIR LETTER???

    Or let me put it this way…

    HAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH STOOD FIRM TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE APOSTLES WHO RECEIVED THE GOSPEL OF GOD FROM CHRIST JESUS? Think about it, man… and, please don’t just cite VERSES. Try to understand them…LOL…

    ————

    YOU SAID:

    YES, CHRIST ALSO TAUGHT THAT THE ONE TRUE GOD IS A FATHER. BUT WHAT YOU, IVAN, HAVE MISERABLY FAILED TO SEE IS THAT HIS REVELATION OF THE FATHERHOOD OF GOD WENT BEYOND THE COMMON UNDERSTANDING OF THE PEOPLE OF HIS TIME. FOR JESUS, GOD IS FATHER FIRST AND FOREMOST BECAUSE HE HAS A SON, AND JESUS IS THIS SON, AND THIS SON AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. (JOHN 10:30)

    MY COMMENT:

    If not for that FALSE INTERPRETATION of John 10:30, you would have understood that statement by Christ very well.

    It is written in John 10:22-30 —

    22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

    25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

    DID CHRIST SAY HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE “GOD”?

    Of course not, man…That statement, “I and My Father are one,” by Christ refers to their ONENESS or UNITY in TAKING CARE OF THE FLOCK. That is, they are ONE IN ACCORD. Or, they have ONE MIND in their care for the sheep as what the CONTEXT of that verse is all about.

    PLEASE READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER, man…

    ———

    AND YET ANOTHER FALSE INTERPRETATION…

    YOU SAID:

    IT IS VERY CLEAR, IVAN, THAT AMONG THOSE WHO REJECTED, IGNORED, AND DISBELIEVED THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS (ABOUT HIS CLAIM TO BE GOD), WERE THOSE WHO INSISTED THAT JESUS IS JUST A “MERE MAN” DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY HAD HEARD HIM “CLAIM TO BE GOD” (John 10:33).

    MY COMMENT:

    Read the whole chapter, man, for you to understand what is really being said…

    This is what we can read in John 10:31-39:

    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

    33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

    See, man?

    Understand the ANSWER of Christ himself. He ACTUALLY cited the Scripture (Psalms 82:6)

    Here it is…Psalms 82:6-7:

    6 I said, “You are gods,
    And all of you are children of the Most High.
    7 But you shall die like men,
    And fall like one of the princes.”

    FYI the term “God” that the Jews were referring to is defined in the above verses. Christ EVEN made it clear in VERSE 36 that he was telling them that he (Christ) was the “SON OF GOD.”

    ———–

    YOU SAID:

    HIS APOSTLE TOLD US NOT TO FOLLOW AN ANGEL THAT TEACHES A NEW AND DIFFERENT GOSPEL (GAL.1:8). BUT WHAT DID YOU DO? YOU FOLLOWED AND “ANGEL FROM THE PHILIPPINES.” YOU EMBRACED A NEW AND DIFFERENT ARIUS-MADE GOSPEL THAT SAYS “JESUS IS NOT GOD,” DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU KNEW VERY WELL THAT IT IS NOT RECORDED IN THE BIBLE!

    MY COMMENT:

    Well, that’s just your OPINION. UNFOUNDED STATEMENT in fact…

    First of all, what the Iglesia ni Cristo upholds as the ONE TRUE GOD came from the GOSPEL OF GOD preached by Christ Jesus himself.

    It’s up to you to believe the WORDS OF GOD or not. That’s your choice…

    Also, that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” VERSE which is not found in the Bible is just “PALUSOT” or “PAMIMILOSOPO” used by unreasonable defenders of RCC…

    Think about this…To follow your TWISTED LINE OF THINKING… Why is a verse saying apostle PAUL, PETER, OR JOHN “IS NOT GOD” is also NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE? Would you also consider their GODHEAD since that verse is ALSO NOT IN THE BIBLE??? lol…lol…

    ———

    YOU SAID:

    AT FIRST THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND ALL THIS. DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT TO YOU, IVAN? HOW MANY TIME DID JESUS ADMONISH HIS APOSTLES FOR THEIR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING? HERE, FOR YOUR SAKE, ARE TWO OF THE MANY EXAMPLES. READ CAREFULLY,

    MATT 16: 8-9, “You of little faith…do you still not understand?
    MK 8:21, “He said to them, do you still not understand?

    MY COMMENT:

    Your LIES are really OVERFLOWING…he he…

    UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT OF WHAT YOU ARE CITING, man!!! lol..lol…

    Man, what do you think CHRIST MEANT in those verses you cited???

    Read “YOUR BIBLE,” man.

    WHAT DID THE APOSTLES NOT UNDERSTAND, according to Christ?

    DON’T JUST TAKE VERSES OUT OF THEIR CONTEXTS…

    ———–

    YOU ASKED:

    SO, IVAN, DO YOU STILL THINK THAT THE APOSTLES AT THIS POINT ALREADY HAVE A COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS?

    MY ANSWER:

    Of course, man… The apostles knew and understood very well what Christ preached them, most importantly about him (Christ). Else the GOSPEL OF GOD brought by Christ could have never been recorded. In FACT, the teaching of Christ about the MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT OF ALL is recorded in MARK 12:28-34. Read that PLEASE…

    And it is written in John 20:30-31 —

    30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

  291. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. IVAN:

    “First of all, can’t you give any biblical proof to support your claim that to believe Jesus is not God IS “UNSCRIPTURAL” or “UNBIBLICAL”? Man, I believe I’ve given enough proofs (FROM THE BIBLE) that say and teach that the FATHER IS THE “ONE TRUE GOD.”

    ME:

    OH MY GULAY! YOU ARE REALLY CONFUSED IVAN. THERE IS NO BIBLICAL PROOF (OR VERSE) THAT SAYS “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” AND STILL YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT? TO SAY THAT THE ONE TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD. THE VERSES THAT THE INC USED TO STRESS THE FACT THAT JESUS IS A MAN ONLY PROVED THAT JESUS IS INDEED A MAN. IT’S ONLY YOUR FALSE INTERPRETATION OF THOSE VERSES THAT SAYS JESUS IS NOT GOD. IN SHORT, YOU DON’T HAVE ANY PROOF THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD.

    2. IVAN:

    “WHY IGNORE THOSE BIBLE VERSES I’VE SHOWN YOU??? he he… You really can’t accept the TRUTH that’s why…”

    ME:

    THOSE VERSES THAT POINT TO THE FACT THAT JESUS IS A MAN ONLY PROVED THAT JESUS WAS INDEED A MAN! WHAT KIND OF ANIMAL HAS TOLD YOU THAT WE DIDN’T BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS A MAN?

    THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR POSITION IS THAT YOU CITE THOSE VERSES AND THEN YOU JUMPED INTO
    CONCLUSION THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD. IT’S NOT THE CATHOLICS, BUT THE INC WHO COMPLETELY IGNORED THE OVERWHELMING BIBLICAL TESTIMONY THAT POINT TO THE FACT THAT JESUS IS GOD. (WE WILL COME TO THAT IN DUE TIME).
    .
    3. IVAN:

    “MOREOVER, let me ask you this…HOW DO YOU DEFINE “UNSCRIPTURAL” or “UNBIBLICAL”? Since you have been defending that FALSE TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE, you seem to be INTENTIONALLY DECEIVING yourself on the true meaning of that word…LOL…”

    ME:

    WHY ASK ME? IT IS YOU WHO BELIEVED IN SOLA SCRIPTURA, RIGHT? SO, YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION YOURSELF. AS FOR ME, SOLA SCRIPTURA IS ONE OF THE MOST “UNSCRIPTURAL” MAN-MADE DOCTRINES THAT YOU HAVE WHOLEHEARTEDLY EMBRACED! I AM JUST APPLYING YOUR OWN PRINCIPLE TO STRESS THE FACT THAT THE DOCTRINE THAT SAYS “JESUS IS NOT GOD” CANNOT BE SUPPORTED BY ANY BIBLICAL VERSE WHATSOEVER.

    4. IVAN:

    “IS IT REALLY “UNSCRIPTURAL” TO BELIEVE that Jesus is not God?”

    ME:

    ACCORDING TO THE YARDSTICK OF SOLA SCRIPTURA, TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD IS UNSCRIPTURAL! YES IVAN! IT IS.

    BUT IF YOU INSIST, AND I KNOW YOU WILL, THAT IT IS STILL BIBLICAL DESPITE THE ABSENCE OF TEXTUAL EVIDENCE, THEN I WILL HAVE TO WARN YOU THAT YOU WILL ONLY END UP ARGUING LIKE A CATHOLIC-IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN! HEHEHE! YOU WILL HAVE TO THINK ALONG THIS LINE: THE WORD MAY NOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE, BUT ITS TRUTH IS CONTAINED IN THERE! BUT HEY, YOU DON’T WANT TO BE CATHOLIC IVAN, DO YOU? HEHEHE!

    5. IVAN:

    “ Man, I have to remind you again that Christ Jesus HIMSELF is preaching us that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE GOD (John 17:3, John 20:17 and Mark 12:28-34). Look those VERSES up. You know how to find them”
    ME:

    YOU ARE PARTIALLY CORRECT, AND PARTIALLY DECEIVING! CORRECT BECAUSE JESUS INDEED PREACHED ABOUT GOD AS A FATHER. DECEIVING, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT TELLING US THE COMPLETE PICTURE OF JESUS’S PREACHING. I ALREADY POINTED THIS OUT TO YOU IN MY PREVIOUS POSTS BUT YOU JUST KEPT ON IGNORING IT.

    ANYWAY, JESUS PREACHED GOD AS A FATHER. BUT HE NEVER STOPPED THERE. HE SAID SOMETHING RADICAL, SOMETHING NEW, AND SOMETHING SHOCKING TO HIS LISTENERS! HE CALLS GOD HIS FATHER, AND HE IS THE FATHER’S ONLY SON! JESUS OWN DESCRIPTION ABOUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER HAD LED THE JEWS TO CONCLUDE THAT HE IS “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL” WITH GOD. JOHN THE APOSTLE AFFIRMED IT AND RECORDED IT AS A FACT! SEE JOHN 5:18.

  292. MANNY CRUZ says:

    MANNY CRUZ SAID::

    WHAT IS RECORDED IN THE BIBLE IS THAT JESUS “WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD” HAHAHAHA! SEE JOHN 5:18. WHAT IS NOT RECORDED IN THE BIBLE, AND YOU KNOW IT VERY WELL, IS THAT “JESUS IS NOT GOD” HAHAHAHA!

    IVAN REPLIED:

    Man, look at you…he he… You cite a Bible verse that you can’t even understand…YOU JUST KEEP ON ASSERTING THINGS! lol… How can you say that “JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD???” Firstly, that verse does not even say that JESUS WAS THE ONE SAYING THAT HE WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD. Actually, the JEWS were the ones accusing Christ of making himself equal with God. That’s the problem with you, man. You don’t know how to refute the BIBLICAL PROOFS that Ive given you.

    MY REPLY:

    YES IVAN, I KEPT ON ASSERTING JOHN 5:18 BECAUSE THAT’S THE VERSE THAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND! ,READ:

    “For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”

    WELL, IT WAS A STATEMENT DIRECTLY COMING FROM JOHN HIMSELF., AND NOT FROM THE JEWS! ISN’T THAT OBVIOUS TO YOU? OBVIOUSLY NOT HEHEH! OK, FOR YOUR SAKE LET US BREAK IT DOWN LINE BY LINE!

    FIRST, JOHN ASSERTS THE FACT THAT THE JEWS WANTED TO KILL HIM.

    SECOND, JOHN ASSERTS THAT JESUS LEGALLY BROKE THE SABBATH.

    THIRD, JOHN ASSERTS THAT JESUS WAS CALLING GOD HIS FATHER.

    AND FOURTH, JOHN ASSERTS THAT JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.

    JOHN 5:18 IS SIMPLY A UNIFIED STATEMENT OF THESE FOUR FACTS! GET IT?

  293. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “When the Jews rebuked Jesus of MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD, they were referring to the FATHER as that GOD… Examine the claim of the JEWS about having a one Father, God.”

    ME:

    OH MY GULAY! YOUR OWN PRIVATE CORRUPTION OF BIBLICAL TEXT IS SHOWING IVAN!

    WHEN THE JEWS CONCLUDED THAT JESUS “WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD” (CF JN 5:18), IT WAS NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE REFERRING TO THE FATHER AS THAT GOD. ANG LAYO NG UNAWA MO PRE! RATHER, THE JEWS “REBUKED” JESUS BECAUSE JESUS CLAIMED GOD TO BE HIS FATHER! AND THE JEWS SIMPLY COULD NOT ACCEPT THIS CLAIM. FOR IT WAS VERY CLEAR TO THEM THAT JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD! AND SO THEY REJECTED JESUS, NOT AS A MAN, BUT AS A GOD!!

    JESUS TOLD THEM, “you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word” (John 8:37), “Because you are unable to hear what I say”(Jn 8:43)

    THERE IS SIMPLY NO ROOM IN THEIR HEARTS AND MIND THAT JESUS IS GOD. THEY DID’NT HEAR HIS CLAIM TO BE GOD,

    JESUS TOLD THEM, “Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!” (John 8:45).

    DID NOT BELIEVE THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT? THAT JESUS IS GOD. THAT’S THE TRUTH THAT THEY DIDN’T BELIEVE. THAT’S PRECISELY THE REASON WHY THEY REJECTED JESUS!

    WHAT THEN DID THEY BELIEVE ABOUT JESUS? WHAT ELSE, BUT THAT HE IS JUST A “MERE MAN” (John 10:33) AND NOT GOD!

    THE KILLERS OF JESUS, SO TO SPEAK, ARE THE DISTANT RELATIVES OF THE INC.!!!

  294. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    YOU SAID:

    OH MY GULAY! YOU ARE REALLY CONFUSED IVAN. THERE IS NO BIBLICAL PROOF (OR VERSE) THAT SAYS “JESUS IS NOT GOD.” AND STILL YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT? TO SAY THAT THE ONE TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD. THE VERSES THAT THE INC USED TO STRESS THE FACT THAT JESUS IS A MAN ONLY PROVED THAT JESUS IS INDEED A MAN. IT’S ONLY YOUR FALSE INTERPRETATION OF THOSE VERSES THAT SAYS JESUS IS NOT GOD. IN SHORT, YOU DON’T HAVE ANY PROOF THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD.

    MY COMMENT:

    Firstly, WHO IS THAT GULAY you always mention? lol…he he…

    Anyway, let’s start… The FACT that the early PEOPLE OF GOD, Christ Jesus himself and the apostles teach us that the FATHER is the ONE TRUE GOD is MORE THAN ENOUGH to believe that JESUS IS NOT GOD. How can you say that Jesus is God when Christ is the one saying that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD??? Think about that, man… He, being the CHRIST, the MESSIAH, the SON OF GOD, had preached everything men should know and understand. The apostles were his witnesses. And the GOSPEL OF GOD, the teachings of Christ, are recorded in the Scriptures.

    The FACT is…THERE IS NO TEACHING BY CHRIST THAT HE IS GOD. He never declared himself to be God or one of the Godhead in TRINITY.

    And, as evidence also that Christ recognized the Father as the ONLY TRUE GOD, he FREQUENTLY PRAYED to the Father. Even when he was crucified on the cross, he still prayed to God. This is written in Mt. 27:46 — And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Psalm 22:1)

    ———

    YOU SAID:

    THOSE VERSES THAT POINT TO THE FACT THAT JESUS IS A MAN ONLY PROVED THAT JESUS WAS INDEED A MAN! WHAT KIND OF ANIMAL HAS TOLD YOU THAT WE DIDN’T BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS A MAN?

    THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR POSITION IS THAT YOU CITE THOSE VERSES AND THEN YOU JUMPED INTO
    CONCLUSION THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD. IT’S NOT THE CATHOLICS, BUT THE INC WHO COMPLETELY IGNORED THE OVERWHELMING BIBLICAL TESTIMONY THAT POINT TO THE FACT THAT JESUS IS GOD. (WE WILL COME TO THAT IN DUE TIME).

    MY COMMENT:

    No, man…Don’t be confused… OR don’t confuse…should I say… The verses I’m referring to are those THAT POINT TO THE FACT THAT THE “ONE TRUE GOD” PREACHED BY THE EARLY PEOPLE OF GOD, CHRIST JESUS AND THE APOSTLES was the FATHER ALONE. Examine those verses I’ve shown you. DON’T BE LAZY as you said…lol…

    ———-

    YOU SAID:

    WHY ASK ME? IT IS YOU WHO BELIEVED IN SOLA SCRIPTURA, RIGHT? SO, YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION YOURSELF. AS FOR ME, SOLA SCRIPTURA IS ONE OF THE MOST “UNSCRIPTURAL” MAN-MADE DOCTRINES THAT YOU HAVE WHOLEHEARTEDLY EMBRACED! I AM JUST APPLYING YOUR OWN PRINCIPLE TO STRESS THE FACT THAT THE DOCTRINE THAT SAYS “JESUS IS NOT GOD” CANNOT BE SUPPORTED BY ANY BIBLICAL VERSE WHATSOEVER.

    MY COMMENT:

    See you really don’t understand the word “UNSCRIPTURAL.” The reality of it is you even equate UNSCRIPTURAL with your PAMIMILOSOPO…LOL…

    Of course, what TRUE CHRISTIANS or THE TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST should possess is the genuine GOSPEL OF GOD. That gospel of God upheld and preached by Christ and the apostles are recorded in the Bible. So, the teachings upheld by the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST in the present time must be based on the teachings of Christ in the Bible. NOW, having a doctrine which deviates from those teachings is surely NOT OF CHRIST OR OF GOD… You know very well where it came from…(John 8:42-47)

    Christ never ever preached about the Trinity, that is, 3 PERSONS IN ONE GOD. Imagine that, the Catholic Church FORMULATED A GOD and departed from the TRUTH about God. What Jesus actually teaches us is that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE GOD (John 17:3). The apostles too understood that revelation by Christ. SO why deviate from that TRUTH??? Ask yourself that…

    ———–

    YOU SAID:

    ACCORDING TO THE YARDSTICK OF SOLA SCRIPTURA, TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD IS UNSCRIPTURAL! YES IVAN! IT IS.

    BUT IF YOU INSIST, AND I KNOW YOU WILL, THAT IT IS STILL BIBLICAL DESPITE THE ABSENCE OF TEXTUAL EVIDENCE, THEN I WILL HAVE TO WARN YOU THAT YOU WILL ONLY END UP ARGUING LIKE A CATHOLIC-IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN! HEHEHE! YOU WILL HAVE TO THINK ALONG THIS LINE: THE WORD MAY NOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE, BUT ITS TRUTH IS CONTAINED IN THERE! BUT HEY, YOU DON’T WANT TO BE CATHOLIC IVAN, DO YOU? HEHEHE!

    MY COMMENT:

    What yardstick are you talking about, man??? HE HE…. What the Iglesia ni Cristo upholds are the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST written in the Bible. To reiterate it again, CHRIST NEVER DECLARED OR PREACHED THAT HE WAS GOD. The TRUTH IS… HE TEACHES US THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    ALSO, we are not talking about finding a “word” (the TRINITY in this case) in the Bible. What we are arguing here is that FALSE TEACHING ABOUT THE TRINITY (3 PERSONS IN ONE GOD) is actually NOT IN THE BIBLE. What were you thinking, man? lol…lol…

    And the TRUTH…the TRUTH still remains… CHRIST REVEALED THE FATHER AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD…no one else…not the TRINITY of the RCC.

    ———-

    YOU SAID:

    ANYWAY, JESUS PREACHED GOD AS A FATHER. BUT HE NEVER STOPPED THERE. HE SAID SOMETHING RADICAL, SOMETHING NEW, AND SOMETHING SHOCKING TO HIS LISTENERS! HE CALLS GOD HIS FATHER, AND HE IS THE FATHER’S ONLY SON! JESUS OWN DESCRIPTION ABOUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER HAD LED THE JEWS TO CONCLUDE THAT HE IS “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL” WITH GOD. JOHN THE APOSTLE AFFIRMED IT AND RECORDED IT AS A FACT! SEE JOHN 5:18.

    MY COMMENT:

    he he he… You really love that verse John 5:18 which, UNFORTUNATELY, you INTENTIONALLY don’t want to understand it… And you really love IMAGINING THINGS… Have you been watching a lot of fictional movies lately??? LOL..lol…

    Firstly, AGAIN, it was not even Christ who said or claimed that he was making himself equal with God.

    Secondly, it was actually the JEWS who were rebuking Christ about that.

    Moreover, the revelation about Christ about his relationship with the Father does not imply that he (Christ) is also God or one of the so called TRINITY. What Christ said and revealed to the JEWS was that he was the “SON OF GOD.”

    AND, it was this answer of Christ (verse 17) that led the Jews to say that he was making himself equal with God. Read the verse just above your favorite verse — 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

    You really don’t get it, do you? lol…

    ———–

    YOU SAID:

    WELL, IT WAS A STATEMENT DIRECTLY COMING FROM JOHN HIMSELF., AND NOT FROM THE JEWS! ISN’T THAT OBVIOUS TO YOU? OBVIOUSLY NOT HEHEH! OK, FOR YOUR SAKE LET US BREAK IT DOWN LINE BY LINE!

    FIRST, JOHN ASSERTS THE FACT THAT THE JEWS WANTED TO KILL HIM.

    SECOND, JOHN ASSERTS THAT JESUS LEGALLY BROKE THE SABBATH.

    THIRD, JOHN ASSERTS THAT JESUS WAS CALLING GOD HIS FATHER.

    AND FOURTH, JOHN ASSERTS THAT JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.

    JOHN 5:18 IS SIMPLY A UNIFIED STATEMENT OF THESE FOUR FACTS! GET IT?

    MY COMMENT:

    WHAT??? What are you talking about, man?

    First of all, John recorded this encounter of Christ Jesus with the Jews the way as it happened. That statement that “Jesus was making himself equal with God” is just your FALSE ASSUMPTION AND INTERPRETATION.

    Man, it is VERY CLEAR in that Bible passage that the JEWS were the ones accusing Christ of that. Apostle John had nothing to do with that statement by the Jews. Moreover, Christ NEVER EVER claimed that HE WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD. Having that kind of belief would go against the declaration of Christ himself. One is in John 14:28 — You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

    Man, you are really DELUDED…

    ———–

    YOU SAID:

    WHEN THE JEWS CONCLUDED THAT JESUS “WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD” (CF JN 5:18), IT WAS NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE REFERRING TO THE FATHER AS THAT GOD. ANG LAYO NG UNAWA MO PRE! RATHER, THE JEWS “REBUKED” JESUS BECAUSE JESUS CLAIMED GOD TO BE HIS FATHER! AND THE JEWS SIMPLY COULD NOT ACCEPT THIS CLAIM. FOR IT WAS VERY CLEAR TO THEM THAT JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD! AND SO THEY REJECTED JESUS, NOT AS A MAN, BUT AS A GOD!!

    MY COMMENT:

    See? Now you say that it was the JEWS who CONCLUDED that Jesus was making himself equal with God…LOL… Ano ba talaga kuya? he he…

    And, FOCUS, pre ha, I previously cited John 8:41 to make it clear for you that the Jews were also referring to the Father as their God BECAUSE Jesus had proclaimed them THAT HE WAS THE “SON OF GOD.” They got really infuriated because of that. And, of course, they (Jews) could NOT really accept that TRUTH. Because…if they accept that pronouncement by Christ, WHAT ARE THEY, THEN??? Think about it, man…

    That is why in John 8:41-47, this is written —

    41 You do the deeds of your father.”

    Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

    For the JEWS to hear the PRONOUNCEMENT by Christ in the above passage, man, who would not get enraged?

    And, the declaration of Christ to the Jews that he was the SON OF GOD can never ever mean that he was also making himself equal with God. Read John 14:28. That, too, can never ever be concluded that Christ was declaring himself God, for the OBVIOUS REASON that Christ recognized and preached the Father as the ONLY TRUE GOD.

    ————–

    YOU SAID:

    DID NOT BELIEVE THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT? THAT JESUS IS GOD. THAT’S THE TRUTH THAT THEY DIDN’T BELIEVE. THAT’S PRECISELY THE REASON WHY THEY REJECTED JESUS!

    MY COMMENT:

    Man, where did that SO CALLED “TRUTH” come from? JESUS IS GOD? Who said that? DID CHRIST SAY THAT? DID CHRIST PREACH THAT?

    Well, if that statement is not from Christ, you know that it is NOT THE TRUTH…BUT, the LIE invented by the Catholic Church to lead people AWAY FROM THE TRUTH.

    ———-

    YOU SAID:

    WHAT THEN DID THEY BELIEVE ABOUT JESUS? WHAT ELSE, BUT THAT HE IS JUST A “MERE MAN” (John 10:33) AND NOT GOD!

    MY COMMENT:

    Yes, the Jews were rebuking Christ of being a MERE MAN and NOT GOD…

    To make it clear for you, man, READ the remarks from Christ himself. He was ACTUALLY declaring himself as the “SON OF GOD.”

    Here it is…John 10:31-36 —

    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

    33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

    HAVE YOU NOTICED???.. that Christ cited the Scripture about those who were called “gods” which the Jews VERY WELL KNEW. And that, they are also called “SONS OF THE MOST HIGH” or “SONS OF GOD” from which they(Jews) based their charges against Christ.

    Actually it is in Psalms 82:6-7 —

    6 I said, “You are gods,
    And all of you are CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH.
    7 But you shall die like MEN,
    And fall like one of the princes.” (NKJV)

    OR

    6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
    you are all SONS OF THE MOST HIGH.’
    7 But you will die like MERE MORTALS;
    you will fall like every other ruler.” (NIV)

    ———–

    FINAL WORD (for now):

    Man, just ask yourself this: DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD?

    Be reminded of John 17:1-3 —

    17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    Just to rephrase verse 3:

    ETERNAL LIFE means… to know the FATHER as the “ONLY TRUE GOD”…AND…to know JESUS CHRIST, as well, who was sent by the FATHER.

  295. Ivan’s position in this discussions is on the evil side.

  296. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1. IVAN:

    “Man, look at you…he he… You cite a Bible verse that you can’t even understand…YOU JUST KEEP ON ASSERTING THINGS! Lol”

    ME:

    WHY YOU ARE SO ALLERGIC TO ASSERTIONS OF FACTS!? YOUR REBUTTAL IS MUCH PREFERRED TO YOUR COMPLAINS! BY THE WAY, HOW CAN YOU EVER PROCEED IN A DISCUSSION WHEN NO ONE IS ASSERTING THINGS? HEHEHE! THINK ABOUT IT!

    2. IVAN:

    “ How can you say that “JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD???”

    ME:

    YOU SAY THIS BECAUSE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT OF WHAT JESUS DID.
    FOR YOUR INFORMATION, THE BACKGROUND FOR THIS WHOLE AFFAIR IN 5:18 IS THE RABBINIC UNDERSTANDING OF THE SABBATH LAW AS RECORDED IN THEIR HALAKAH AND OTHER PHARISAIC ORAL TRADITIONS. THE RABBIS GENERALLY THOUGHT THAT ALTHOUGH GOD RESTED FROM HIS CREATIVE WORK ON THE SABBATH, HIS WORK OF JUDGMENT AND MERCY CONTINUES EVEN ON THE SABBATH. “He rested from the work of [creating] His world, but not from the work of the wicked and the work of the righteous, for He works with the former and with the latter. He shows the former their essential character, and the latter their essential character” (Genesis Rabbah 11:10). HENCE, THE WORK OF JUGDMENT TAKES PLACE ON THE SABBATH. ALSO, BIRTHS AND DEATHS CAN OCCUR ON THE SABBATH. HENCE, THE WORK OF LIFE-GIVING AND LIFE-TAKING ALSO TAKE PLACE ON THE SABBATH.

    NATURALLY, THE JEWS UNDERSTOOD THIS TO MEAN THAT ONLY GOD IS ALLOWED TO WORK, AND ONLY GOD IS WORKING ON THE SABBATH. JESUS UNDERSTOOD VERY WELL THIS RABBINIC CONCEPT AS HE HIMSELF AFFIRMED THAT “My Father is always working”.”(John 5:17).

    BUT JESUS SAID SOMETHING MORE! HE SAID SOMETHING THAT SHOCKED HIS LISTENERS! KNOWING FULLY WELL THE RABBINIC NOTION OF GOD BEING THE ONLY ONE WORKING ON THE SABBATH, AND KNOWING PERFECTLY WELL HOW THE JEWS WOULD TAKE HIS WORDS, HE THEN WENT ON TO SAY THAT HE IS ALSO WORKING ON THE SABBATH!

    NEEDLESS TO SAY, HE ASCRIBED UNTO HIMSELF THE EXCLUSIVE DIVINE PREROGATIVE, AND THEREFORE HE PUTS HIMSELF ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH GOD AS REGARDS THE ASPECT OF WORKING ON THE SABBATH! THIS PROMPTED THE JEWS TO CHARGE JESUS, AND RIGHTLY SO, WITH ”MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.” AND THAT IS PRECISELY THE CONCLUSION THAT JESUS WANTED THE JEWS TO MAKE!

    TO INSIST OTHERWISE – WHICH THE INC ACTUALLY DID – WOULD ONLY MAKE JESUS APPEAR LIKE HE IS JUST MISLEADING THE JEWS! IVAN AND THE REST OF HIS ILK WILL HAVE TO RESOLVE THE NON-SENSICAL CONUNDRUM THAT JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED BECAUSE HE MISLED HIS PEOPLE!

  297. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “When the Jews rebuked Jesus of MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD, they were referring to the FATHER as that GOD… Examine the claim of the JEWS about having a one Father, God.”

    ME:

    YES IVAN, I HAVE EXAMINED THE CLAIM OF THE JEWS ABOUT A ONE FATHER, GOD! AND YOU KNOW WHAT? THEY MADE A FALSE CLAIM! YES! FALSE CLAIM! MISERABLY!

    BECAUSE, WHAT THEY CLAIMED AS THEIR FATHER WAS NOT THE FATHER OF JESUS. JESUS TOLD THEM WHO THEIR REAL FATHER WAS. HE SAID:”:If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil…..”

    YOU KEEP ON BANKING ON THE CLAIM OF THE JEWS ABOUT THEIR FATHER, BUT JESUS IS TELLING YOU NOW THAT THEIR FATHER WAS THE DEVIL!

    SO, CAN WE NOW SAY THAT THE INCS AND THOSE WHO REJECTED JESUS BY INSISTING THAT HE IS JUST A” MERE MAN: WHO “CLAIM TO BE GOD” ACTUALLY HAD THE DEVIL AS THEIR FATHER?

    NOW, WOULD YOU PLEASE TELL US IVAN WHO YOUR REAL FATHER IS?

  298. ivan says:

    Dro:

    Oh I overlooked your POST…lol…lol…I just saw Manny’s… Anyway, HERE IS YOUR CORRECTION…he he…

    DRO SAYS:

    Ivan, you are already complaining! You don’t need Mr. Sugon to correct what you thought was a “dishonest statement” on my part. You can correct it yourself. IBut I understand why you are so uncomfortable at the thought that your doctrine cannot be supported by a verse that says “Jesus is not God.”

    MY COMMENT:

    He he he…lol…

    My reason for addressing Mr. Sugon that YOU SHOULD BE CORRECTED OF YOUR LIES was because Mr Sugon was taking SO long to UPDATE this blog. You see I posted a REPLY to answer YOUR LIES, and what? It took him what ALMOST A WEEK to post it…HE HE HE. Is there a conspiracy? Just kidding…I FELT and THOUGHT that he did not want to update comments anymore. If that happens YOU WILL NOT BE CORRECTED! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, MAN??? lol…lol…Not only your LIES consume you BUT YOUR PRIDE as well…HE HE…

    I WAS NOT ASKING MR SUGON TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR LIES. IT IS JUST “YOU” and “YOUR LIES” THAT I WOULD LIKE TO CORRECT!!! IT IS “I” who is CORRECTING you of your LIES and UNFOUNDED ATTACKS against the INC. Keep that in your TWISTED MIND…lol…

    ————

    YOU SAID:

    Now, allow me to correct you.

    You now are saying that “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is BIBLICAL? Right? Wrong!

    MY COMMENT:

    YES…RIGHT…IT is BIBLICAL to BELIEVE that JESUS IS NOT GOD…

    ———-

    YOU SAID:

    For one, there is no verse in the bible that says “Jesus is not God.” You yourself made an emphatic statement about this by saying that it is “a VERSE which DOES NOT EXIST and which CAN NEVER EXIST.” It is therefore safe to say that is is UNBIBLICAL!

    MY COMMENT:

    What “PAMIMILOSOPO” and “PALUSOT” is that, man? HE HE HE…

    You see THIS IS THE VERY REASON that THIS “FOOLISH ARGUMENT” SHOULD NOT BE RAISED…lol…lol…

    Since a verse saying “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is not found in the Bible, you now FALSELY CONCLUDE THAT IT IS UNBIBLICAL??? lol…lol…

    LET ME ASK YOU:

    IS it not also true that a verse saying ” APOSTLE JOHN IS NOT GOD” is NOT found in the Bible? Would you also consider that to BELIEVE JOHN IS NOT GOD is also UNBIBLICAL???

    Come on, man! Your argument is SO FOOLISH that should never be raised in the first place. Don’t waste TIME in such form of PAMIMILOSOPO, man… You are really FULL of that…

    IN FACT, until now, you are NOT ADDRESSING “DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD??? PROOFS???

    YOU CAN’T EVEN REFUTE ALL THE BIBLICAL PROOFS I’VE SHOWN YOU TO ENLIGHTEN YOU THAT THE “ONE TRUE GOD” TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE IS THE “FATHER” ALONE…

    ———–

    YOU SAID:

    Have you forgotten that fact that you dismissed the TRINITY on the ground that it is not written in the Bible? Again, let me remind you of your own statement: “You know what…no matter how you DEFEND that false teaching on the TRINITY, the TRUTH remains that it is UNSCRIPTURAL and therefore FALSE”

    The verse that says “JESUS IS NOT GOD” is also unscriptural and therefore FALSE. That, Ivan, is only the logical end of your Sola Scriptura assumption. It is a conclusion brought about by your own standard.

    It is really tough when you are strangled by your own words.

    MY COMMENT:

    HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL…

    What is your DEFINITION OF “UNSCRIPTURAL” or “UNBIBLICAL?”

    ALSO, I was not ACTUALLY looking for the WORD “TRINITY” FYI FYI FYI FYI FYI… You are SO DELUDED that you IGNORE what I have been saying and arguing…LOL…lol…

    What I have been ARGUING for the ZILLIONTH time already is that the TRINITY DOCTRINE IS NOT PREACHED BY GOD, BY CHRIST, NOR BY THE APOSTLES…Come on, man! DON’T BE CONFUSED…or DON’T CONFUSE OTHERS…I should say….LOL…LOL….

    Maybe you are just referring to the REFERENCE I gave you about WHERE and WHEN the WORD TRINITY was INTRODUCED. lol…lol…Man, I just PRESENTED that AS ONE OF THE PROOFS to show you that THAT TEACHING DID NOT COME FROM CHRIST NOR FROM THE APOSTLES.

    BUT my ARGUMENT should be CLEAR that the TRINITY DOCTRINE (3 PERSONS IN ONE GOD) IS “NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE”. Therefore, IT IS UNSCRIPTURAL…

    YOU SHOULD KNOW HOW TO DEFINE “UNSCRIPTURAL.” he he he…LOL.lol… The problem with you is…you EQUATE “UNSCRIPTURAL” with your “PAMIMILOSOPO” and LIES…

    ANSWER THIS INSTEAD:

    DON’T BE COWARD…Come on, man…THIS IS AN EASY QUESTION, don’t you think?

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD???

  299. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “Moreover, DID CHRIST REALLY MAKE HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD??? DID HE??? What verse?

    “Let me cite you this verse to ENLIGHTEN you… John 14:28 states — 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.”

    ME:

    THIS IS ONE GLARING EXAMPLE OF IVAN’S MISUNDERSTANDING OF JOHN 5:17-19. HERE, IVAN SIMPLY FAILED TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT OF THE THOSE VERSES.

    I N VIEW OF THE RABBINIC UNDERSTANDING OF THE SABBATH LAW, IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT CHRIST PUT HIMSELF ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH GOD.

    HOW?

    WELL, FOR THE RABBIS, GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WORKING ON THE SABBATH. JESUS CAPITALIZED THIS JEWISH MINDSET TO DRIVE HOME HIS MESSAGE IN A WAY THAT THE JEWS WOULD PERFETLY UNDERTAND. THUS, WHEN JESUS PROCLAIMED THAT, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working”(John 5:17), HE EFFECTIVELY ASCRIBED UNTO HIMSELF THE EXCLUSIVE DIVINE PREROGATIVE OF WORKING ON THE SABBATH, ON TOP OF CLAIMING GOD AS HIS FATHER. HENCE, JESUS MESSAGE TO THE JEWS WAS VERY CLEAR: THAT HE WAS “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.”(John 5:18).

    JOHN THE APOSTLE RECORDED IT IN MANNER THAT HIS READERS WOULD ALSO UNDERSTAND IT THE SAME WAY.YOU HAVE TO TAKE NOTE IVAN THAT JOHN HAS THE PROPENSITY TO CLARIFY THINGS WHENEVER THE PEOPLE MISUNDERSTOOD JESUS’S WORDS ( SEE 2:21, 6:32, 10:6, 12:16, 37-42, 11:51).

    BUT HERE, JOHN NEVER SAID THAT THE JEWS WERE SIMPLY MISTAKEN OR THAT THEY JUST TOOK JESUS’ WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT. IN FACT, HE NEVER CORRECTED THEM! WHY? THE OBVIOUS REASON IS THAT THE JEWS GOT THE MESSAGE LOUD AND CLEAR: JESUS WAS “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.”(John 5:18).

    THE JEWS GOT THE MESSAGE LOUD AND CLEAR, BUT THEY REJECTED IT! IVAN AND THE INC GOT THE MESSAGE ALL WRONG, AND THEY ACCEPTED THIS ERROR!

    HENCE, BOTH THE KILLERS OF JESUS AND THE IGLESYA NI MANALO ARE BUT TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN – CUT FROM THE SAME CLOTH!

  300. Dro says:

    IVAN’S WORDS IN QUOTES, MINE ALL CAPS:

    “My reason for addressing Mr. Sugon that YOU SHOULD BE CORRECTED OF YOUR LIES was because Mr Sugon was taking SO long to UPDATE this blog.”

    MY GODDNESS! NON-SEQUITUR. BUT YOU BETTER FILE YOUR COMPLAINTS TO THE NEARBY POLICE STATION, SILA PWEDE MAG ENTERTAIN NYAN! HEHEHE!

    “you see I posted a REPLY to answer YOUR LIES, and what? It took him what ALMOST A WEEK to post it…”

    GO TO THE POLICE STATION IVAN AND FILE YOUR COMPLAINTS THERE HAHAHA!

    “HE HE HE. Is there a conspiracy? Just kidding…”

    BAD JOKE. BUT YOU ARE FUNNY IVAN HAHAHA!

    “I FELT and THOUGHT that he did not want to update comments anymore. If that happens YOU WILL NOT BE CORRECTED! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, MAN??”

    CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND A DELUSIONAL MIND GO TOGETHER! HAHAHA! YOU ARE GETTING FUNNIER BY THE DAY IVAN!

    “? lol…lol…Not only your LIES consume you BUT YOUR PRIDE as well…HE HE…”

    THE TRUTH STRIKES YOUR HEAD LIKE A HEDGEHAMMER AND STILL YOU WOULDN’T BUDGE!

    “I WAS NOT ASKING MR SUGON TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR LIES. IT IS JUST “YOU” and “YOUR LIES” THAT I WOULD LIKE TO CORRECT!!! IT IS “I” who is CORRECTING you of your LIES and UNFOUNDED ATTACKS against the INC. Keep that in your TWISTED MIND…lol…”

    OH MY! IT ONLY TAKES A FEW LINES FOR YOU TO LIE AND CONTRADICT YOURSELF IVAN! HERE, READ YOUR CONFUSION:

    FIRST, “ My reason for addressing Mr. Sugon that YOU SHOULD BE CORRECTED OF YOUR LIES was because Mr Sugon was taking SO long to UPDATE this blog.”

    SECOND, “I WAS NOT ASKING MR SUGON TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR LIES”

    CLEAR AS DAYLIGHT! YOU WERE ASKING MR SUGON, THEN YOU WERE NOT ASKING HIM? THAT’S A CONTRADICTION IVAN – IF YOU DON’T KNOW IT! WHO ARE YOU FOOLING? NOT ME HAHAHA!

    IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR YOU TO ADDRES MR SUGON CONCERNING THE “CORRECTION” YOU had WANTED TO MAKE IF YOU DID NOT WANT HIM TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! IN FACT YOU WANTED HIM TO POST YOUR COMMENTS, RIGHT? THAT IVAN, IS ASKING MR SUGON TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT YOU THOUGHT WAS MY “LIE” – CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU WANTED US TO BELIEVE! NOW, DO YOU STILL INSIST THAT YOU ARE NOT ASKING HIM TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT? IF YOU ARE NOT LYING, THEN DON’T FAULT US IF YOUR LANGUAGE IS AS MURKY AS MUD!

    ANYWAY, AFTER I POINTED OUT TO YOU THAT YOU ARE ALREADY COMPLAINING, YOU NOW BACKTRACKED AND SOMEHOW FOUND A LITTLE NERVE TO DO THE “CORRECTION” YOURSELF, IN A PATHETIC EFFORT TO COVER UP THE SHAME OF BEING CALLED A CRY BABY! WOW! WASN’T IT MANNY CRUZ WHO SAID IT’S FUNNY TO DISCUSS WITH IVAN? HAHAHAHA!

    P.S. I run out of time. I’ll be back in a few days

  301. ivan says:

    Dro:

    I don’t know how you regurgitate ALL THE LIES you have. You really are full of THOSE LIES…he he he…LOL..Well, you know very well WHY you can lie that MUCH…(JOHN 8:42-47)

    You even intentionally confuse others who might read this thread…Anyway, that’s the way of your father…THE FATHER OF LIES…

    You can never hide FOREVER in that PAMIMILOSOPO STYLE of argumentation…LOL…

    You know that DEEP INSIDE YOU…

    You see man, if you really have answers to all my ARGUMENTS you could have given your answers already…BUT, you really DON’T HAVE ANY…

    FOR THAT, YOU ARE A COWARD!!! lol…lol…

    All you boast is your PALUSOT AND a LOT OF PAMIMILOSOPO…You even dare to TWIST what I said to Mr Sugon….Come on, man! YOU ARE THE ONE PATHETIC…You can’t ANSWER AND REFUTE MY CONTENTIONS, still you have the nerve to LIE EVEN MORE….he he he….

    You don’t want any discussion, ADMIT IT…You CAN’T REFUTE ALL THE BIBLICAL PROOFS SHOWN IN YOUR FACE…lol…lol…LOL…

    You can run BUT YOU CAN’T HIDE FROM THE TRUTH…

  302. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    Don’t worry, man…I understand you…lol…lol…I UNDERSTAND THAT PRIDE YOU ARE SHOWING…AND…THAT UNSWERVING POSITION ON THE TRINITY DOCTRINE…

    You see the JEWS (the religious authorities during the time of Christ) had the same ATTITUDE like yours and the Catholic Church. YOU, like them, CANNOT ACCEPT THE TRUTH even THAT TRUTH IS ALREADY COMING FROM CHRIST. They DID NOT KNOW Christ…and SO DO YOU.

    READ over and over and over again JOHN 8:41-47. Contemplate on that passage for your sake…

    Anyway, YOU SAID:

    THIS IS ONE GLARING EXAMPLE OF IVAN’S MISUNDERSTANDING OF JOHN 5:17-19. HERE, IVAN SIMPLY FAILED TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT OF THE THOSE VERSES.

    I N VIEW OF THE RABBINIC UNDERSTANDING OF THE SABBATH LAW, IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT CHRIST PUT HIMSELF ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH GOD.

    HOW?

    WELL, FOR THE RABBIS, GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WORKING ON THE SABBATH. JESUS CAPITALIZED THIS JEWISH MINDSET TO DRIVE HOME HIS MESSAGE IN A WAY THAT THE JEWS WOULD PERFETLY UNDERTAND. THUS, WHEN JESUS PROCLAIMED THAT, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working”(John 5:17), HE EFFECTIVELY ASCRIBED UNTO HIMSELF THE EXCLUSIVE DIVINE PREROGATIVE OF WORKING ON THE SABBATH, ON TOP OF CLAIMING GOD AS HIS FATHER. HENCE, JESUS MESSAGE TO THE JEWS WAS VERY CLEAR: THAT HE WAS “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.”(John 5:18).

    MY COMMENT:

    Come on, man! That is your FALSE INTERPRETATION of the passage you have cited.

    First of all, man, you are IGNORING the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST himself about the FATHER…that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE GOD (John 17:1-3, John 20:17: Mark 12:28-34). The WHOLE MINISTRY of Christ was a REVELATION about THE FATHER as the ONLY TRUE GOD. Why DEVIATE from that TRUTH? WHY make up every LIE there is to make and FORMULATE a FALSE GOD, the TRINITY?

    CHRIST JESUS ALREADY REVEALED THE TRUTH ABOUT THE FATHER. According to him the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE GOD. The apostles, too, UPHELD that teaching of Christ UNTIL THE DEATH of the last one.

    Can’t you see that what you are TELLING ME are just YOUR OWN FALSE INTERPRETATIONS???

    You can’t even PROVIDE A PROOF that GOD, Christ Jesus, or the Apostles preached the TRINITY (3 PERSONS IN ONE GOD).

    I’ve given all the verses I know showing how God the Father revealed himself to HIS PEOPLE, as well as, how Christ and the apostles RECOGNIZED and PREACHED the FATHER as that ONE TRUE GOD.

    And what do I get in return??? LOL…LOL…Man, you are FULL OF FALSE ASSUMPTIONS AND INTERPRETATIONS…

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD?

    DID GOD REVEAL HIMSELF TO HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE AS THE “TRINITY” (3 PERSONS IN ONE GOD)?

    You can’t even answer those questions without TWISTING the words of God in the Bible…and…you only show merely FALSE INTERPRETATIONS…

    In John 17:1-3, CHRIST CLEARLY STATED THAT THE FATHER IS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD” —

    17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    AND, WHAT?

    You therefore CONCLUDE (which is obviously FALSE) that: “HENCE, JESUS MESSAGE TO THE JEWS WAS VERY CLEAR: THAT HE WAS “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.”

    WHAT??? JESUS WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD???

    he he he…LOL…lol…TYPICAL TWISTED REASONING by CATHOLICS.

    You even ACCUSE Christ of “making himself equal with God” the same way the Jews did… Haven’t you realized that, man???

    Christ did not even PREACH that he was God, in the first place. Moreover, he teaches that the FATHER IS GREATER THAN all INCLUDING himself (Christ)…FYI…FYI…FYI…(John 10:29, John 14:28)…HOW COULD CHRIST BE MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD when HE IS THE ONE TEACHING THAT THE FATHER (GOD) IS GREATER THAN ALL??? Think about that man…

    SO, why POSSESS A DIFFERENT DOCTRINE (MAN-MADE) from that of Christ’s? I repeat…the TRINITY DOCTRINE did not come from God nor from Christ. The ONE TRUE GOD is the FATHER alone as taught and upheld by the PEOPLE OF GOD in the Bible. Examine those verses I’ve shown you…Come on…DON’T BE LAZY! (from your own words)…lol…lol…

    —————–

    YOU SAID:

    JOHN THE APOSTLE RECORDED IT IN MANNER THAT HIS READERS WOULD ALSO UNDERSTAND IT THE SAME WAY.YOU HAVE TO TAKE NOTE IVAN THAT JOHN HAS THE PROPENSITY TO CLARIFY THINGS WHENEVER THE PEOPLE MISUNDERSTOOD JESUS’S WORDS ( SEE 2:21, 6:32, 10:6, 12:16, 37-42, 11:51).

    BUT HERE, JOHN NEVER SAID THAT THE JEWS WERE SIMPLY MISTAKEN OR THAT THEY JUST TOOK JESUS’ WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT. IN FACT, HE NEVER CORRECTED THEM! WHY? THE OBVIOUS REASON IS THAT THE JEWS GOT THE MESSAGE LOUD AND CLEAR: JESUS WAS “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD.”(John 5:18).

    MY COMMENT:

    WHAT IS THERE TO CLARIFY AND TO CORRECT, man??? You and your church are the ONES TWISTING EVERY WORD OF GOD in the Bible!!! That passage you are citing IS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL. You are confusing things here (INTENTIONALLY). For what purpose? TO DEFEND THE FALSE TRINITY DOCTRINE… To defend a LIE is to USE MORE…and EVEN MORE…LIES… There is no end to the LIES upheld by the Catholic Church… Haven’t you realized that? Of course, not…JOHN 8:41-47…

    AGAIN, IT WAS “ONLY” THE JEWS who WERE ACCUSING Christ of that! And, NOW, you also ACCUSE Christ of THAT SAME CHARGE…lol…lol…

    That’s the problem with you, man…You are SO DELUDED that you are SO BLIND TO SEE that Christ has been revealing the FATHER as the ONLY TRUE GOD all throughout his MINISTRY… Read the last verses of that chapter…JOHN 5:41-47… In these verses, you will read it VERY CLEARLY that the ONLY GOD (the ONE TRUE GOD) recognized and preached by Christ is no other than the FATHER alone…READ…

    41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

    ————-

    Final words (for now):

    CONTEMPLATE on John 8:41-47… Try to understand who was that SAME FATHER and GOD who sent Christ.

    ALSO, try to ask and even answer this to yourself:

    DID CHRIST SAY AND PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD?

  303. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1.IVAN:

    :Moreover, DID CHRIST REALLY MAKE HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD??? DID HE??? What verse?
    “Let me cite you this verse to ENLIGHTEN you… John 14:28 states — 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.””

    ME:

    IVAN CITED JOHN 12:28 TO “PROVE” – THOUGH HE IS TOO SHY TO SAY IT DIRECTLY- THAT JESUS IS NOT EQUAL WITH GOD AND THUS HE IS NOT GOD.

    I HAVE ALREADY EXPLAINED THE RABBINIC CONTEXT WITHIN WHICH JESUS CAPITALIZED ON THE JEWISH NOTION OF GOD AS THE ONLY ONE WORKING ON THE SABBATH IN ORDER TO TELL THE JEWS THAT HE IS ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH GOD. IVAN HAS NOT OFFERED A SOUND COUNTER-ARGUMENT TO THIS, BECAUSE APPARENTLY HE IS IGNORANT OF THE RABBINIC PERSPECTIVE! OBVIOUSLY HE WAS NOT TAUGHT PROPERLY BY HIS FALSE TEACHERS!

    IGNORING THE LARGER CONTEXT IS INDEED FATAL TO ANY ATTEMPT TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURES. IN A CLASSIC CASE OF SCRIPTURAL ISOLATION, IVAN HERE CITED JOHN 14:38 AS IF IT WAS THE ONLY VERSE IN THE BIBLE. HE SHOWED COMPLETE BLINDNESS TO THE LARGER CONTEXT OF THE VERSE.

    WHAT THEN IS THE LARGER CONTEXT OF THE VERSE IN WHICH WE CAN PROPERLY UNDERSTAND THE STATEMENT “MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I”? WELL, JUST TWO WORDS:”

    1.) INCARNATION

    2.) KENOSIS

    (DON’T BE SURPRISED IF THESE TWO WORDS WOULD SOUND TOO BIZZARE FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNTAUGHT OR “IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE” (2 Pt 3:15) LIKE IVAN. ST PETER SAID THAT THESE ARE THE KINDS OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD ONLY DISTORT THE GOSPEL TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. )

    WHAT THEN IS INCARNATION AND KENOSIS?

    WELL, IN JOHN 1:1, WE ARE TOLD THAT THE LOGOS, OR THE”WORD, “WAS GOD”. AND THIS GOD “BECAME FLESH” (V14) IN THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST. THAT’S INCARNATION IN A NUTSHELL. KENOSIS, ON THE OTHER HAND, SIMPLY MEANS THE “SELF-EMPTYING” OF GOD. ST PAUL EXPRESSED THIS MORE FULLY IN PHIL 2:6-8. HE SAID:

    Philippians 2:5-8
    New International Reader’s Version (NIRV)

    6 In his very nature he was God.
    But he did not think that being equal with God was something he should hold on to.
    7 Instead, he made himself nothing.
    He took on the very nature of a servant.
    He was made in human form.
    8 He appeared as a man.
    He came down to the lowest level.
    He obeyed God completely, even though it led to his death.
    In fact, he died on a cross.

    IN OTHER WORDS, TO SAY THAT “GOD BECAME FLESH IN THE PERSON OF JESUS” IS TO SAY THAT “JESUS EMPTIED HIMSELF, TAKING THE FORM OF A SERVANT”, OR “HE MADE HIMSELF NOTHING, AND WAS MADE IN HUMAN FORM.” INCARNATION AND KENOSIS THEREFORE ARE TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN!

    BUT IT HAS TO BE EMPHASIZED HERE THAT, “IN HIS VERY NATURE [JESUS] WAS GOD” (V6.). HE WAS IN THE FORM OR NATURE OF GOD! CLEARLY HE IS EQUAL WITH GOD. BUT, AS THE VERSE ITSELF SAYS, HE DID NOT HOLD ON TO THIS EQUALITY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT HE TOOK ON THE VERY NATURE OF A SERVANT. HE DID NOT HOLD ON TO THIS EQUALITY BECAUSE HE HUMBLED HIMSELF, AND “CAME DOWN TO THE LOWEST LEVEL.”(V8).

    HENCE, WHEN JESUS DECLARED THAT “THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I”, HE DECLARED IT AS “THE WORD OF GOD” WHO BECAME FLESH IN HIS PERSON; HE DECLARED IT AS A DIVINE BEING WHO DOES NOT NEED TO HOLD ON TO HIS EQUALITY WITH GOD IN HIS INCARNATED FORM; HE DECLARED IT AS SOMEONE WHOSE NATURE IS GOD BUT HAS ASSUMED THE NATURE OF MAN; HE DECLARED IT AS A GOD WHO HOLDS EVERYTHING IN HIS HANDS BUT WAS HIMSELF MADE NOTHING BY TAKING ON A NATURE OF A SERVANT; HE DECL;ARED IT AS A GOD WHO OCCUPIES THE HIGHEST PLACE IN HEAVEN BUT HAS “CAME DOWN TO THE LOWEST LEVEL” HERE ON EARTH AND CAME TO BE KNOWN ONLY AS A “CARPENTER’S SON ” OF MARY!

    TAKE ALL THESE FACTS OUT OF JESUS’S DECLARATION AND YOU’LL END UP BELIEVING LIKE IVAN, WHO WAS EASILY MISLED BY THE LIES OF A FAKE ANGEL! DO A SCRIPTURAL ISOLATION AND YOU WILL END UP LIKE IVAN WHO HAS SHARED THE GUILT OF THE KILLERS OF JESUS BY BELIEVING THAT JESUS IS JUST A “MERE MAN” AND NOT GOD!

  304. MANNY CRUZ says:

    I SAID:
    :
    YOU SAID YOU ARE A FORMER CATHOLIC. NOW YOU ARE SHOWING THAT INDEED YOU ARE AN IGNORANT FORMER CATHOLIC. FOR YOUR INFORMATION, THE BIBLE SPEAKS ABOUT ORAL TRADITIONS. PAUL SAYS IN 2 THESS 2:15, “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS that you were taught by us, either by our SPOKEN WORD or by our LETTER.”

    IVAN REPLIED:

    “DO YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THE VERSE YOU JUST CITED, man??? HE HE… I guess not…Are you (and all the Catholics as well) really STANDING FIRM to the GOSPEL OF GOD preached by the apostles themselves THROUGH their SPOKEN WORD or THEIR LETTER???”

    Or let me put it this way…
    HAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH STOOD FIRM TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE APOSTLES WHO RECEIVED THE GOSPEL OF GOD FROM CHRIST JESUS? Think about it, man… and, please don’t just cite VERSES. Try to understand them…LOL…
    ————

    ME:

    IVAN, WHAT ST.PAUL SAID IN 2 THES 2:15 IS A VERY DIRECT AND SIMPLE STATEMENT AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND. BUT NOT FOR THE INCS – BECAUSE THEY ARE SO CLUELESS AS TO WHAT THE VERSE MEANS.

    WE DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS VERSE BECAUSE WE HOLD ON TO BOTH THE SPOKEN WORD AND THE WRITTEN WORD, EXACTLY AS PAUL INTENDED. THAT’S WHY WE CONDEMN YOUR HERETICAL DOCTRINE OF “SOLA SCRIPTURA” OR THE “BIBLE ALONE” THEORY WHICH THROWS OUT THE “SPOKEN WORD” OUT OF THE WINDOW. ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS FAITHFUL TO THIS ADMONITION OF ST PAUL, THAT’S WHY WE HAVE SACRED TRADITION, SACRED SCRIPTURES, AND THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE CHURCH AS THE PILLARS OF OUR FAITH.

    BUT THE INCS HAVE A TREMENDOUS PROBLEM WITH THIS VERSE, AND THEY DON’T KNOW HOW TO MAKE SENSE OF IT, AS WE CAN SEE FROM THE EMPTINESS OF IVAN’S OWN STATEMENT ABOVE!

    INSTEAD OF ASSERTING THAT HE AND THE INC HAVE KEPT PAUL’S TEACHING, HE JUST DRYLY ASKED IF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH STOOD FIRM TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE APOSTLES. WELL, IVAN, IF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS NOT BEEN FAITHFUL TO ST PAUL’S TEACHING OF KEEPING BOTH THE SPOKEN AND WRITTEN WORD, YOU WILL NEVER HAVE OUR BIBLE. WITHOUT OUR BIBLE, YOUR CHURCH WOULD NEVER EXIST I THE FIRST PLACE! IVAN IS SO CLUELESS ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE REASON WHY THE BIBLE WAS COMPILED THE WAY IT WAS, WAS LARGELY BECAUSE OF THE ORAL TRADITION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS CRYSTALIZED IN HER LITURGY, WAY OF LIFE, AND, YES, ORAL PREACHING!

    YOU DON’T BELIEVE THAT IVAN? OKAY, TRY TO LOOK INTO THE SCRIPTURES IF THERE WAS ANY PRESCRIPTION ABOUT THE TABLE OF CONTENTS OF THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE! WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT THE BIBLE WOULD INCLUDE 72 OR 66 BOOKS? YOU SHOULD TO BE THANKING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR GIVING YOU THE BIBLE INSTEAD OF UNGRATEFULLY ATTACKING HER IN A VICIOUS, MALICIOUS, AND DIABOLIC WAY! THINK ABOUT THAT IVAN!

  305. MANNY CRUZ says:

    I SAID:

    “YES, CHRIST ALSO TAUGHT THAT THE ONE TRUE GOD IS A FATHER. BUT WHAT YOU, IVAN, HAVE MISERABLY FAILED TO SEE IS THAT HIS REVELATION OF THE FATHERHOOD OF GOD WENT BEYOND THE COMMON UNDERSTANDING OF THE PEOPLE OF HIS TIME. FOR JESUS, GOD IS FATHER FIRST AND FOREMOST BECAUSE HE HAS A SON, AND JESUS IS THIS SON, AND THIS SON AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. (JOHN 10:30)”

    IVAN REPLIED:

    “If not for that FALSE INTERPRETATION of John 10:30, you would have understood that statement by Christ very well….

    “DID CHRIST SAY HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE “GOD”?

    “Of course not, man…That statement, “I and My Father are one,” by Christ refers to their ONENESS or UNITY in TAKING CARE OF THE FLOCK. That is, they are ONE IN ACCORD. Or, they have ONE MIND in their care for the sheep as what the CONTEXT of that verse is all about.

    “PLEASE READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER, man…”

    MY REPLY TO IVAN:

    ONCE AGAIN, IVAN SIMPLY MISSED THE MAIN POINT OF MY STATEMENT. FOR IVAN, THE TRUTH THAT GOD IS A FATHER BECAUSE HE HAS A SON WHO IS ONE WITH HIM IS JUST A “FALSE INTERPRETATION”. IT’S NOT HARD TO SEE HOW BEWILDERED IVAN IS AT THIS POINT.

    HE CHARGED ME WITH “FALSE INTERPRETATION”, BUT THEN HE HIMSELF MADE HIS OWN FALSE INTERPRETATION! HAHAHA! VERY FUNY IVAN!

    HIS FUNNY QUESTION WAS: DID CHRIST SAY HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE “GOD”?

    OF COURSE, IN THE SAME VEIN WE CAN ALSO ASK HIM, “DID JOHN 10:30 SAY THAT “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE IN ACCORD IN TAKING CARE OF THE FLOCK?”

    OR, DID THE VERSE SAY THAT “THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE IN MIND IN OUR CARE FOR THE SHEEP?”

    OR BETTER STILL, DID THE VERSE SAY THAT “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE IN MIND AND ACCORD ONLY AND NOT IN ESSENCE?”

    THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUSLY NO!!

    IVAN SIMPLY TRIED TO MAKE A “PALUSOT” OR “PAMIMILOSOPO” WHICH BETRAYS HIS SHALLOW UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORD OF GOD!

    WHERE THEN LIES IVAN’S MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE JOHN 10:30? WELL, IT OBVIOUSLY STEMS FROM HIS POOR KNOWLEDGE OF THE HEBREW LANGUAGE, AS TYPICAL OF MOST INC DEFENDERS!

    IN THE HEBREW TEXT OF JOHN 10:30, THE WORD USED FOR “ONE” IS “HEN.” IT IS NEUTER AND NOT MASCULINE. HENCE, THIS CANNOT MEAN THAT JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE IN PERSON OR ONE IN PURPOSE, MIND OR ACCORD! SINCE IT IS NEUTER, THE SENSE IS THAT JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE “ONE THING.” THIS CAN ONLY MEAN THAT THEY ARE ONE IN ESSENCE AND SUBSTANCE! WHAT IS ASSERTED HERE IS ESSENTIAL UNITY, OR UNITY OF ESSENCE! IVAN OF COURSE FAILED TO SEE THIS!

    WHAT ELSE DID IVAN FAIL TO SEE?

    WELL, LET’S ASK RABBI MICHAEL BERNSTEIN. HE EXPLAINS THAT IN THE TALMUD AND OTHER SOURCES, HEN IS TRANSLATED AS “ONE” BECAUSE IT IS ALSO A COGNATE OF THE GREEK WORD “UNI”, WHICH ALSO MEANS “ONE” OR “SINGULAR”. THIS IS THE SAME WORD TO EXPRESS THE ABSOLUTE “ONENESS” OF GOD, OR GOD’S “ABSOLUTE UNITY WITHOUT PARTS.”

    HEN ALSO MEANS TO “BEHOLD” OR TO “SEE” WHICH IN A WAY IS CONNECTED TO THE FIRST MEANING OF “ONE”. BERNSTEIN FURTHER ASSERTS THAT,

    “we can discern the connection between these two meanings of hen, behold and one, since to behold something is to hold it visually or intellectually as a whole in one’s grasp.”

    NOW, THE PRACTICAL IMPLICATION OF THIS IS THAT JESUS’ DECLARATION IN JOHN 10: 30 THAT SAYS “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE” HAS TO BE CONNECTED TO HIS DECLARATION IN JOHN 14:9 THAT SAYS “TO SEE ME IS TOO SEE THE FATHER”

    HENCE, THE ESSENTIAL OR SUBSTANTIAL UNITY OF THE FATHER AND THE SON IS TO BE SEEN IN THE PERSON OF JESUS, THOROUGH WHOM WE ARE “ABLE TO HOLD IT VISUALLY AS A WHOLE IN ONE’S GRASP!”

    AND THIS LEAD US TO THE THIRD MEANING OF HEN WHICH IS EXPRESSED BY THE WORD “AYESA”. THIS MEANS THAT, ACCORDING TO RABBI BERNSTEIN, “ by an affirmation a person expresses his willingness to accept or incorporate into himself that which he affirms and, in a manner of speaking, to become one with it.”

    IN VIEW OF THIS, WE CAN TRULY UNDERSTAND THAT BY HIS AFFIRMATION IN JOHN 10:30, JESUS ACTUALLY INCORPORATES INTO HIMSELF THE ESSENCE OF GOD THE FATHER! AND THIS ENABLES US TO “SEE” THE FATHER THROUGH HIM (JOHN 14:9). THAT’S THE REASON WHY JESUS CAME TO BE KNOWN AS THE “IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD! “(COL 1:15). THIS IMAGE IS SO CLEAR, YET, IVAN AND HIS FAKE CHURCH HAVE FAILED TO SEE!

  306. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    YOU SAID:

    I HAVE ALREADY EXPLAINED THE RABBINIC CONTEXT WITHIN WHICH JESUS CAPITALIZED ON THE JEWISH NOTION OF GOD AS THE ONLY ONE WORKING ON THE SABBATH IN ORDER TO TELL THE JEWS THAT HE IS ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH GOD. IVAN HAS NOT OFFERED A SOUND COUNTER-ARGUMENT TO THIS, BECAUSE APPARENTLY HE IS IGNORANT OF THE RABBINIC PERSPECTIVE! OBVIOUSLY HE WAS NOT TAUGHT PROPERLY BY HIS FALSE TEACHERS!

    MY COMMENT:

    Your DELUSIONS are so great that you really IGNORE the VERY TEACHING of Christ about the FATHER.

    AGAIN… Christ Jesus HIMSELF teaches us that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. John 17:1-3 states —

    17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    IS THE ABOVE PASSAGE NOT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU TO REALIZE THAT THE “ONE TRUE GOD” RECOGNIZED AND PREACHED BY CHRIST IS NO OTHER THAN THE FATHER?

    Come on, man! How could Christ Jesus, WHO PROCLAIMED himself as the “SON OF GOD”…AND…WHO RECOGNIZED AND PREACHED THE FATHER AS THE ONE TRUE GOD… be SUGGESTING that “HE IS ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH GOD?” That’s the problem with that TRINITY doctrine, man, you see you really have to INVENT IDEAS just to DEFEND THAT FALSE MAN-MADE DOCTRINE…

    You even BOAST about something (“RABBINIC CONTEXT”) which obviously you don’t have knowledge of…LOL…LOL…This is what you SHOULD BE CONTEMPLATING ON…HOW could you be SO BLIND that YOU IGNORE THE TRUTH REVEALED BY CHRIST ABOUT THE ONE TRUE GOD???

    He he he…RABBINIC CONTEXT…RABBINIC PERSPECTIVE…lol…lol…SOUNDS GOOD TO THE EARS, man…BUT, it does not even prove that Christ WAS REALLY “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD”… Think about this…AGAIN….AGAIN…and AGAIN…How could CHRIST be “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD” when HE CLEARLY TEACHES THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD???

    YOU DON’T EVEN TRY TO REFUTE THE BIBLICAL PROOFS I’VE SHOWN YOU ABOUT HOW THE FATHER REVEAL HIMSELF TO HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE, HOW CHRIST HIMSELF TEACHES WHO THAT ONE TRUE GOD IS, AND HOW THE APOSTLES AS WELL RECOGNIZED THE FATHER AS THEIR GOD.

    You know what, MANNY…just use your COMMON SENSE here and you would not have to USE WORDS which you DO NOT REALLY UNDERSTAND…You CANNOT MASK your DELUDED MIND with this kind of PALUSOT…he he he…LOL…

    ———-

    AND, WHAT???

    INCARNATION?

    KENOSIS?

    Where AGAIN did you get those NOTIONS??? LOL…lol…

    AGAIN… Just EXAMINE those verses I gave you where Christ and the APOSTLES THEMSELVES recognized the FATHER as the “ONE TRUE GOD”…and…YOU WOULD NOT GET LOST ON WHO TO RECOGNIZE AS GOD…

    ———

    KENOSIS as you say is “SELF-EMPTYING” OF GOD???

    WOW!!! WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE?

    IS NOT THAT JUST YOUR FALSE CONCLUSION AND VAGUE ASSUMPTION???

    First of all, THAT NOTION OF “KENOSIS” DID NOT COME FROM CHRIST…He TEACHES only the FATHER as the ONLY TRUE GOD…

    MOREOVER, what did Christ say about GOD the FATHER? In John 4:23-24 this is what it says —

    23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    “GOD IS SPIRIT” according to Christ…and…WHO IS THAT GOD he was talking about? HE is no other than the FATHER alone…

    AND, what did the LORD GOD say?

    Isaiah 45:5 — I am the Lord, and there is no other;
    There is no God besides Me.
    I will gird you, though you have not known Me,

    WHO AGAIN IS THAT ONE GOD OF ISRAEL? Read..

    Therefore David blessed the Lord before all the assembly; and David said:

    “Blessed are You, Lord God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever.(1 Chronicles 29:10)

    WHO AGAIN IS THE “ONE GOD” recognized by CHRIST?

    John 17:3 —

    3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    Your MAN-MADE DOCTRINE teaches “SELF-EMPTYING OF GOD”??? Is that according to Christ? Come on, man…THE TRUTH is you can only read that… where??? Of course, from your CATECHISM…NOT IN THE BIBLE…

    ————-

    YOU SAID:

    WELL, IN JOHN 1:1, WE ARE TOLD THAT THE LOGOS, OR THE”WORD, “WAS GOD”. AND THIS GOD “BECAME FLESH” (V14) IN THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST. THAT’S INCARNATION IN A NUTSHELL.

    MY COMMENT:

    JOhn 1:1 DOES NOT and CANNOT MEAN CHRIST IS GOD.

    Firstly, the Catholic Church HAS MISINTERPRETED that verse FOR THE SAKE of the FALSE TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE.

    John 1:1 states —

    THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine. (John 1:1, James Moffatt New Testament)

    In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. (John 1:1, Goodspeed New Testament)

    You see, man, AGAIN, that VERSE implies the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God ABOUT HIS SON, the Lord Jesus Christ. That WORD or LOGOS in the beginning means a THOUGHT or FOREKNOWLEDGE. It is the MASTER PLAN of GOD for MANKIND…that MANKIND will be saved THROUGH HIS SON JESUS…

    God had PROMISED from the very beginning that HE WILL SEND HIS SON JESUS CHRIST…

    Romans 1:2-4 —

    2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

    1 Peter 1:20-21 —

    20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    AGAIN, Christ WAS FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world…It was GOD the Father who FOREORDAINED about HIS SON…Christ was MANIFESTED…OR…the WORD was FULFILLED when that time had come…

    IN Gal 4:4-5 — 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

    FURTHERMORE, HOW CAN YOUR “TRINITY,” which you say Christ also is a part of, be doing the FOREORDINATION about HIMSELF???…Think about your DECEPTION, man…
    ————-

    Philippians 2:5-8 as you say speaks about that KENOSIS, self-empyting of God???

    FALSE INTERPRETATION…that’s what your KENOSIS is all about…

    See how you use that TRANSLATION? he he he..

    You use it because there is a verse saying —

    6 In his very nature he was God.
    But he did not think that being equal with God was something he should hold on to.

    HOW QUESTIONABLE the Bible translation you use!

    You know why??? VERSE 8 of that rendition says —

    8 He appeared as a man.
    He came down to the lowest level.
    He obeyed God completely, even though it led to his death.
    In fact, he died on a cross.

    DID YOU SEE IT???

    According to that verse…He (Christ) obeyed God completely…

    TO CLARIFY YOUR DELUSIONS… HE HE HE

    NKJV gives us this translation of Phil 2:5-8 —

    5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

    NOW, it’s GETTING CLEARER, isn’t it, MANNY???

    It says there…Christ Jesus, who, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD…

    Is being in the FORM OF GOD implies that CHRIST is “GOD”?

    Come on, man…BE ENLIGHTENED…

    FYI, FYI, FYI,….MAN is created in the LIKENESS OF GOD, is it not???

    Gen. 1:26 — 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

    COMMON SENSE will guide you that “BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD” is VERY MUCH DIFFERENT from “BEING GOD.”

    ONE MORE THING…

    DOES CHRIST HAVE THE SAME “POWER” AS THAT OF GOD THE FATHER, should you think that he (Christ) is also GOD??? Think about that, man…

    ———-

    NOW, the last parts of your post…WOW…he he he… you know very well what THOSE are…FALSE INTERPRETATIONS AND OBVIOUS TWISTING OF THE TRUTH…needless to say…WHY???

    John 17:3, Christ UTTERED these words WHEN he was PRAYING to GOD THE FATHER —

    “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

  307. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1.)IVAN:

    “Your DELUSIONS are so great that you really IGNORE the VERY TEACHING of Christ about the FATHER.”
    ME:

    IVAN, YOUR DELUSION IS SO GREAT THAT YOU REALLY IGNORE CHRIST TEACHING ABOUT THE FATHER BEING ONE IN ESSENCE WITH HIM.

    2.) IVAN:

    “AGAIN… Christ Jesus HIMSELF teaches us that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. John 17:1-3 states —
    17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

    ME:

    THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. BUT YOU STOPPED THERE IVAN! YOU HAVE NOT COMPLETED THE MESSAGE. YOU HAVE IGNORED THE FACT THAT THE ONE TRUE GOD IS A FATHER PRIMARILY BECAUSE HE HAS A SON, AND THIS SON WAS ALSO HIS “WORD” WHO WAS GOD, AND THIS WORD WHO WAS GOD WAS MADE FLESH IN THE PERSON OF JESUS, THE LORD AND THE AUTHOR OF LIFE!(ACTS 3:15). IT’S NO WONDER THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING IVAN IS TRUE TO YOUR NAME, THAT IS, INC OR INCOMPLETE!

    3.) IVAN:

    “IS THE ABOVE PASSAGE NOT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU TO REALIZE THAT THE “ONE TRUE GOD” RECOGNIZED AND PREACHED BY CHRIST IS NO OTHER THAN THE FATHER?”

    ME:

    THE PASSAGE IS CLEAR ENOUGH BUT YOU MISUNDERSTOOD IT COMPLETELY- BECAUSE OF YOUR CRIME OF BIBLICAL ISOLATION! YOU ARE MISLED TO BELIEVE THAT THIS VERSE IS A DENIAL OF THE DIVINITY OF JESUS, BUT THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE. THIS VERSE IN FACT HIGHLIGHTS THE UNIQUE -POSITION OF THE SON WHO GIVES GLORY TO THE FATHER; A SON WHO EXERCISES GOD’S AUTHORITY OVER ALL, AND SON WHO GIVES ETERNAL LIFE TO MANY. IF YOU USE YOUR COMMON SENSE WELL, THIS PRESENTATION ABOUT THE SON AND THE FATHER DOES NOT IN ANY WAY RESEMBLE A “HUMANIZATION” OF GOD BUT MORE OF A “DIVINIZATION” OF THE SON OF MAN. TO INSIST OTHERWISE WOULD ONLY REVEAL A MONUMENTAL THEOLOGICAL BANKRUPTCY – AS IF IVAN HASN’T SHOWN IT ALREADY!

    4.)IVAN:

    come on, man! How could Christ Jesus, WHO PROCLAIMED himself as the “SON OF GOD”…AND…WHO RECOGNIZED AND PREACHED THE FATHER AS THE ONE TRUE GOD… be SUGGESTING that “HE IS ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH GOD?” “

    ME:

    IVAN, YOU DID NOT GET IT BECAUSE OF YOUR GLARING LACK OF PHILOSOPHICAL, THEOLOGICAL, AND HISTORICAL UNDERSTANDING OF THE TEXTS. YOU ARE COMPLETELY AT A LOSS AS TO HOW TO RECONCILE THE NOTION OF GOD THE FATHER HAVING A SON WHOSE ESSENCE IS ONE WITH HIM. YOUR SIMPLISTIC UNDERSTANDING COULD NOT CONTAIN THE FACT THAT JESUS DECLARED HIS EQUALITY WITH GOD BY CAPITALIZING ON THE RABBINIC CONCEPT ION OF THE SABBATH LAW. JESUS IS A GOOD TEACHER VERY MUCH UNLIKE YOUR FALSE TEACHERS IN THE INC. AS A GOOD TEACHER, HE MADE SURE THAT HIS LISTENERS, IN THIS CASE THE LEARNED JEWS, WOULD UNDERSTAND HIM VERY WELL. NEEDLESS TO SAY, HE WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL AND VERY EFFECTIVE – BECAUSE HE LED THE JEWS TO MAKE THE CORRECT CONCLUSION: THAT HE WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD! THAT’S VERY CLEAR! BUT THE LIES OF MANALO HAS BLURRED YOUR MIND IVAN!

    NOW, ASK YOURSELF IVAN, WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED SIMPLY BECAUSE HE MISLED THE JEWS INTO THINKING THAT HE WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD? OR, WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED BECAUSE HE TOLD THE TRUTH THAT HE WAS GOD?

    5.) IVAN:

    “That’s the problem with that TRINITY doctrine, man, you see you really have to INVENT IDEAS just to DEFEND THAT FALSE MAN-MADE DOCTRINE…”

    ME:

    THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THE TRINITY IVAN! THE PROBLEM LIES IN YOUR BLURRED THINKING AFTER HAVING SWALLOWED WHOLESALE THE LIES AND DECEPTION OF YOUR FALSE ANGEL MANALO!

    6.) IVAN:

    “You even BOAST about something (“RABBINIC CONTEXT”) which obviously you don’t have knowledge of…LOL…LOL…This is what you SHOULD BE CONTEMPLATING ON…HOW could you be SO BLIND that YOU IGNORE THE TRUTH REVEALED BY CHRIST ABOUT THE ONE TRUE GOD???”

    ME:

    OUR INTELLIGENT READERS CAN DISCERN THAT BETWEEN YOU AND ME, IT WAS YOU WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE RABBINIC CONTEXT WITHIN WHICH JESUS DECLARED HIS EQUALITY WITH GOD! OBVIOUSLY THIS IS SO NEW AND SO STRANGE TO YOUR EARS THAT YOU EVEN CALLED IT AS JUST “SOMETHING.” YES, IVAN, IT IS “SOMETHING” THAT YOU AND YOUR FALSE TEACHERS IN THE INC ARE SO IGNORANT OF! THAT’S THE REASON WHY YOU ARE SO BLIND TO THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD BEING A FATHER TO A SON WHOSE NATURE IS GOD (Phil 2:6).

    7.) IVAN:

    “He he he…RABBINIC CONTEXT…RABBINIC PERSPECTIVE…lol…lol…SOUNDS GOOD TO THE EARS,”

    ME:

    SEE IVAN? WITHOUT OPENLY ADMITTING IT, YOUR WORDS CLEARLY TELL US THAT YOU HAVE ZERO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE RABBINIC PERSPECTIVE ON THE SABBATH LAW! DEFINITELY, IT SOUNDS NEW AND STRANGE TO YOUR EARS! I’M NOT SURPRISED REALLY!

    8.) IVAN:

    “man…BUT, it does not even prove that Christ WAS REALLY “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD”… Think about this…AGAIN….AGAIN…and AGAIN…How could CHRIST be “MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD” when HE CLEARLY TEACHES THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD???”

    ME:

    I ALREADY EXPLAINED TO YOU THE RABBINIC BACKGROUND AND YET, YOU COMPLETELY MISSED IT! BESIDES, YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ANY SOUND REFUTATION TO THIS POINT AT ALL. INSTEAD, YOU MERELY REASSERTED YOUR SIMPLISTIC UNDERSTANDING OF THE “ONE TRUE GOD.”

    HOWEVER, IT IS VERY CURIOUS THAT YOUR SIMPLISTIC NOTION IS NOT VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE NOTION OF THE JEWS WHO ALSO HAPPENED TO CLAIM GOD AS THEIR FATHER! BUT YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT THEY JUST MADE A FALSE CLAIM, BECAUSE THEIR REAL FATHER, ACCORDING TO JESUS, IS THE DEVIL!

    NOW MAY I ASK YOU IVAN, WHO IS YOUR REAL FATHER THEN?

    9.) IVAN:

    “YOU DON’T EVEN TRY TO REFUTE THE BIBLICAL PROOFS I’VE SHOWN YOU ABOUT HOW THE FATHER REVEAL HIMSELF TO HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE, HOW CHRIST HIMSELF TEACHES WHO THAT ONE TRUE GOD IS, AND HOW THE APOSTLES AS WELL RECOGNIZED THE FATHER AS THEIR GOD.”

    ME:

    YOU ARE TELLING US THAT IT IS OKAY TO REFUTE BIBLICAL PROOFS! SORRY IVAN , BUT I DON’T REFUTE BIBLICAL PROOFS! WHAT I REFUTE IS YOU SILLY ARGUMENT! SO DON’T TELL ME TO IMITATE YOUR BAD HABIT OF REFUTING BIBLICAL PROOFS, OKAY? HAHAHA!

    WHAT THEN IS MY PROOF THAT YOU, IVAN , HAVE THE SHAMELESS NERVE TO REFUTE BIBLICAL PROOFS?

    HERE’S MY PROOF: THE OVERWHELMING BIBLICAL TESTIMONIES SAY THAT “THE WORD WAS GOD.” BUT YOU REFUTED IT BY SAYING THAT THE WORD WAS NOT GOD, BUT SIMPLY, “DIVINE.”

    THE “LOGOS” IN JOHN 1:1, WHICH IS ACTUALLY A VERY DEEP PHILOSOPHICAL CONCEPT DERIVED FROM PAGANISM, IS NOW GIVEN A FREE FOR ALL INTERPRETATION BY IVAN. HE TRANSLATED IT AS “FOREKNOWLEDGE”, “MASTERPLAN,” “THOUGHT”, AND WHAT HAVE YOU! HEHEHE!

    YET, EVEN WITH THOSE SILLY VERSIONS OF THE LOGOS GIVEN BY IVAN, HE STILL CANNOT ESCAPE THE FACT THAT THE “WORD WAS GOD”. THE ORIGINAL GREEK READS, “KAI THEOS EN HO LOGOS.” THEOS SIMPLY MEANS “GOD” AND NOTHING ELSE! IN OTHER WORDS, THE “LOGOS” WAS “THEOS.”

    SIMPLY PUT, “JESUS IS GOD”!!!!!

    NOW WE CAN ASK IVAN THIS PERPLEXING QUESTION: “FROM WHICH DUMPSITE DID YOU SCAVANGED THOSE SILLY VERSIONS OF “LOGOS”? HA? IVAN? ANSWER THAT IF YOU CAN! HAHAHAHA!

  308. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    YOU SAID:

    WE DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS VERSE BECAUSE WE HOLD ON TO BOTH THE SPOKEN WORD AND THE WRITTEN WORD, EXACTLY AS PAUL INTENDED. THAT’S WHY WE CONDEMN YOUR HERETICAL DOCTRINE OF “SOLA SCRIPTURA” OR THE “BIBLE ALONE” THEORY WHICH THROWS OUT THE “SPOKEN WORD” OUT OF THE WINDOW. ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS FAITHFUL TO THIS ADMONITION OF ST PAUL, THAT’S WHY WE HAVE SACRED TRADITION, SACRED SCRIPTURES, AND THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE CHURCH AS THE PILLARS OF OUR FAITH.

    MY COMMENT:

    HA HA HA…lol… MERE ASSERTIONS!!!

    HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT YOU HOLD ON TO BOTH THE SPOKEN WORD AND THE WRITTEN WORD WHEN YOU ARE NOT FAITHFUL TO THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES??? Think man, think!!! LOL…LOL…

    It will only take COMMON SENSE for you to realize that you are NOT FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.

    DID CHRIST PREACH ABOUT THE TRINITY???

    DID HE SAY THAT HE, BESIDES THE FATHER, WAS “GOD”???

    Come on, man. he he he…Don’t be hard on yourself…DON’T GET STUCK IN THE LIES EMBEDDED IN YOU BY YOUR CHURCH…

    ————–

    YOU SAID:

    IN THE HEBREW TEXT OF JOHN 10:30, THE WORD USED FOR “ONE” IS “HEN.” IT IS NEUTER AND NOT MASCULINE. HENCE, THIS CANNOT MEAN THAT JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE IN PERSON OR ONE IN PURPOSE, MIND OR ACCORD! SINCE IT IS NEUTER, THE SENSE IS THAT JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE “ONE THING.” THIS CAN ONLY MEAN THAT THEY ARE ONE IN ESSENCE AND SUBSTANCE! WHAT IS ASSERTED HERE IS ESSENTIAL UNITY, OR UNITY OF ESSENCE! IVAN OF COURSE FAILED TO SEE THIS!

    MY COMMENT:

    No matter how YOU TRY to COMPLICATE THINGS here, the TRUTH WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL…

    AS YOU SAID that “ONE” is “HEN” in Hebrew. SO, does that conclude that Christ Jesus and the Father are “ONE GOD”??????? Come, on man! You are FULL OF FALSE ASSUMPTIONS! lol…lol…

    So, for you to find out what that STATEMENT really means, you have to UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT from where you get that verse. FYI, AGAIN, FYI, AGAIN… Christ was speaking about HIS SHEEP that the FATHER (GOD) had given him. That statement, “I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE,” is a CONCLUDING REMARK from Christ himself about their, as I said previously, UNITY IN TAKING CARE OF THE FLOCK.

    IN John 10:22-30 it says —

    22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

    25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

    MOREOVER, Manny, the Jews were even asking Jesus IF HE WAS THE “CHRIST”…

    FUNDAMENTALLY, the ANSWER of JESUS was about HIM BEING THE “CHRIST.” AND…that to show the Jews that he was the Christ, he told them about the WORKS that HE (Christ) and the FATHER (GOD) have in COMMON.

    Man, just use your COMMON SENSE if you have one…LOL…lol…

    MOREOVER, that ONENESS or UNITY is also what Christ Jesus wants for his disciples or TRUE FOLLOWERS…Read…

    John 17:20-23 —

    20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

    SO, following your TWISTED REASONING, that “ONE” should mean ONE IN ESSENCE, then, ALL the disciples or TRUE FOLLOWERS of Christ are also part of “ONE GOD.”

    SEE, man, how TWISTED AND DELUDED that TRINITY DOCTRINE??? IT DEFIES NOT ONLY THE TRUTH REVEALED BY CHRIST, BUT, LOGIC AS WELL. lol…lol…lol…

    ————-

    YOU SAID:

    IN VIEW OF THIS, WE CAN TRULY UNDERSTAND THAT BY HIS AFFIRMATION IN JOHN 10:30, JESUS ACTUALLY INCORPORATES INTO HIMSELF THE ESSENCE OF GOD THE FATHER! AND THIS ENABLES US TO “SEE” THE FATHER THROUGH HIM (JOHN 14:9). THAT’S THE REASON WHY JESUS CAME TO BE KNOWN AS THE “IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD! “(COL 1:15). THIS IMAGE IS SO CLEAR, YET, IVAN AND HIS FAKE CHURCH HAVE FAILED TO SEE!

    MY COMMENT:

    Are you kidding me, man???

    That verse you cited Colossians 1:15 ACTUALLY IS A TESTIMONY which STRONGLY DISPROVES that TRINITY DOCTRINE…lol…lol…he he…

    Here it is… Col 1:15-20 —

    15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    CAN’T YOU GET IT??? he he…

    THE SON…IS…THE…IMAGE OF THE “INVISIBLE GOD”…

    The SON is the IMAGE… ALSO, THERE IS A “INVISIBLE GOD.”

    Get it???!!!

    And, what does the passage above tell about Jesus Christ? Verse 15 says that CHRIST IS THE FIRST BORN OVER ALL CREATION…

    WHY?

    “For in him all things are created…” “All things have been created THROUGH HIM and FOR HIM…”

    Remember what I told you about the FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD ABOUT HIS SON JESUS?

    Come on, man…Think about it…

    Verse 19 says — “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,”

    What again? It says there that the FULLNESS OF GOD IS IN CHRIST…

    It does not and cannot imply that CHRIST,besides the FATHER, IS ALSO GOD.

    IN FACT, the TRUTH is, PAUL, in his letter to the Ephesians, has this to say —

    14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph 3:14-19)

    That “FULLNESS OF GOD” should also be aspired for by the TRUE CHRISTIANS.

    MOREOVER, the TRUE CHRISTIANS, or the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST, will also be transformed to that GLORIOUS BODY OF CHRIST…

    Phil 3:20-21 —

    20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

  309. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1.) IVAN:

    “AND, WHAT???
    “INCARNATION?
    “KENOSIS?
    “Where AGAIN did you get those NOTIONS??? LOL…lol…”

    ME:

    AGAIN IVAN, YOU ARE SHOWING SHEER IGNORANCE OF THE THEOLOGICAL TRUTH ABOUT THE “INCARNATION:AND “KENOSIS OF GOD.” JOHN 1:1 (INCARNATION) AND PHIL 2:5-8 (KENOSIS) STARED YOU IN THE FACE AND YET YOU SIMPLY TURNED BLIND!

    2. IVAN:

    “AGAIN… Just EXAMINE those verses I gave you where Christ and the APOSTLES THEMSELVES recognized the FATHER as the “ONE TRUE GOD”…and…YOU WOULD NOT GET LOST ON WHO TO RECOGNIZE AS GOD”

    ME:

    WHY DON’T YOU EXAMINE JOHN 1:1 AND PHIL 2:5-8 SO THAT YOU WOULD NOT GET LOST ON THE TRUTH ABOUT THE INCARNATION AND KENOSIS OF GOD?

    3. IVAN:

    “KENOSIS as you say is “SELF-EMPTYING” OF GOD???
    “WOW!!! WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE?
    “IS NOT THAT JUST YOUR FALSE CONCLUSION AND VAGUE ASSUMPTION???”

    ME:

    HAHAHA! WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE? HERE:

    Philippians 2:5-8
    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

    5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.

    IVAN, TAKE A CLOSE LOOK ON VERSE 7. IT SAYS: “[HE] EMPTIED HIMSELF”. VERSE 6 ALREADY ASSERTED THE JESUS WAS IN THE “FORM OF GOD.” THAT MEANS HE IS GOD BY NATURE! AND THIS GOD “EMPTIED HIMSELF” (KENOSIS) BY TAKING ON THE “FORM OF A SERVANT” OR BY BECOMING A HUMAN BEING (INCARNATION). THIS TRUTH IS VERY SELF-EVIDENT AND YET, BY SOME GREAT MYSTERY, YOU IVAN STILL FAILED TO SEE IT.

    AND IVAN, IT IS NOT A FALSE CONCLUSION OR A VAGUE ASSUMPTION. IT IS THE PLAIN FACT THAT YOU ADAMANTLY REFUSED TO ACCEPT! THUS, HERE, THE ONLY FALSE CONCLUSION IS YOUR BELIEF THAT KENOSIS IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE, AND THE ONLY VAGUE ASSUMPTION IS YOUR BLIND INSISTENCE THAT “KENOSIS” DID NOT COME FROM CHRIST.

    4.) IVAN:

    “First of all, THAT NOTION OF “KENOSIS” DID NOT COME FROM CHRIST…He TEACHES only the FATHER as the ONLY TRUE GOD…”

    ME:

    HAHAHA! YOU ARE INDEED FUNNY IVAN! KENOSIS IS WHAT CHRIST DID WHEN HE “EMPTIED HIMSELF” BY BECOMING A MAN! YOUR ASSERTION IS IGNORANT, UNCRITICAL, AND MINDLESS! SORRY!

    5.) IVAN:

    “Your MAN-MADE DOCTRINE teaches “SELF-EMPTYING OF GOD”??? Is that according to Christ? Come on, man…THE TRUTH is you can only read that… where??? Of course, from your CATECHISM NOT IN THE BIBLE…”

    ME:

    IVAN, YOU ARE GETTING FUNNIER! HEHEHE! KENOSIS IS NOT A MAN-MADE DOCTRINE. IT IS THE ACTION OF GOD AS RECORDED IN PHIL 2:7. IT IS NOT SIMPLY ACCORDING TO CHRIST, IT IS WHAT CHRIST HIMSELF DID! WHAT IS MAN-MADE IS THE DOCTRINE ABOUT AN ANGEL FROM THE PHILIPPINES WHO REVIVED A MAN-MADE ARIUS-INSPIRED CHRISTOLOGICAL ERROR GRAFTED OUT OF A MAN-MADE LUTHER INVENTION SOLA SCRIPTURA!
    ————-

    5. IVAN:

    “JOhn 1:1 DOES NOT and CANNOT MEAN CHRIST IS GOD.
    Firstly, the Catholic Church HAS MISINTERPRETED that verse FOR THE SAKE of the FALSE TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE.

    John 1:1 states –
    THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine. (John 1:1, James Moffatt New Testament)

    In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. (John 1:1, Goodspeed New Testament)

    HAHAHAHA! YOU ARE SO HILARIOUS IVAN! YOU USED FAULTY TRANSLATIONS TO CONTRADICT THE BIBLE.WHAT A NERVE!!! BUT EVEN YOUR MUCH DISCREDITED BIBLE TRANSLATIONS DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR FALSE ASSUMPTION THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD!

    OKAY. GRANTING WITHOUT ADMITTING THAT THE “LOGOS” WAS” DIVINE”, STILL IT DOES NOT SAY THAT THE LOGOS WAS JUST A MERE MAN!!! HAHAHA GET IT IVAN?

    YOU GOT LOST IN THE TRANSLATION BECAUSE YOUR FALSE TEACHERS IN THE INC DO NOT KNOW THE GREEK LANGUAGE! BUT FOR YOUR EDUCATION, LET ME INTRODUCE TO YOU HOW JOHN 1:1 IS RENDERED IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK! BUT LET ME BREAK IT DOWN INTO 3 STATEMENTS. READ:

    1. EN ARCHE EN HO LOGOS
    (In the beginning was the Word)

    2. KAI HO LOGOS EN PROS TON THEON
    (and the Word was with God)

    3. KAI THEOS EN HO LOGOS
    (and God was the Word)

    THAT, IVAN, IS THE WORD-FOR-WORD TRANSLITERATION OF JOHN 1:1.

    NOW, THE GREEK WORD FOR “DIVINE” IS “DAIMON”. DO YOU SEE THAT WORD IN THE ABOVE CITATION? NO, YOU DON’T SEE IT, RIGHT? VERY GOOD! BUT I’M SURE YOU ARE NOT BLIND ENOUGH SO AS TO OVERLOOK THE WORD “THEOS” THERE! RIGHT? VERY GOOD AGAIN! AND “THEOS” MEANS “GOD” AND NOT “DIVINE.” AGREE? YOU SHOULD!

    THE VERSE CATEGORICALLY STATES THAT “GOD WAS THE WORD”. OR MORE APPROPRIATELY, “THE WORD WAS GOD.” THEREFORE, THERE IS NO DENYING THAT JESUS IS GOD. ONLY A MIND SO POISONED BY THE LIES OF A FALSE ANGEL WOULD DARE TO CONTRADICT THE BIBLE!

    BY THE WAY IVAN, YOU MAY NOW THROW OUT OF YOUR WINDOW MOFFAT’S AND GODSPEED’S MISTRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE, AND THROW OUT ALONG WITH THEM YOUR OWN FALSE CONCLUSION THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD! THAT’S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD IVAN!

  310. MANNY CRUZ says:

    1.) IVAN:

    “you see, man, AGAIN, that VERSE [john 1:1] implies the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God ABOUT HIS SON, the Lord Jesus Christ. That WORD or LOGOS in the beginning means a THOUGHT or FOREKNOWLEDGE. It is the MASTER PLAN of GOD for MANKIND…that MANKIND will be saved THROUGH HIS SON JESUS…”

    ME:

    JOHN 1:1 IS VERY SIMPLE AND DIRECT STATEMENT ABOUT THE “LOGOS” BEING “GOD”.

    “AND THE WORD WAS GOD.”

    AND YET, IVAN TRIED TO COMPLICATE ITS SIMPLE MEANING JUST TO ACCOMMODATE HIS ERROR. IVAN HAS NO OTHER OPTION BUT TO DISTORT THE VERSE AND MAKE IT SAY WHAT IT DOES NOT SAY, BECAUSE HE VALUES MANALO’S ERROR MORE THAN HE VALUES THE TRUTH. WHEREAS THE VERSE SAY, “THE WORD WAS GOD,” IVAN NOW SHAMELESSLY CONTRADICTED IT BY AFFIRMING THAT THE WORD WAS NOT GOD, BUT A MERE “FOREKNOWLEDGE, THOUGHT, AND MASTERPLAN” OF GOD.

    BUT EVEN IF IVAN WAS RIGHT IN TRANSLATING THE “LOGOS” AS SUCH, THE CONSEQUENCE WOULD STILL BE THAT “FOREKNOWLEDGE, THOUGHT, AND MASTERPLAN OF GOD WAS (OR WERE) ALSO GOD (OR GODS).

    “AND THE WORD WAS GOD.”

    IVAN DENIED THE TRINITY, BUT NOW HE INVENTED HIS OWN TRINITY. UNWITTINGLY HE REPLACED THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT WITH” FOREKNOWLEDGE, THOUGHT, AND MASTERPLAN” OF GOD. IVAN HAS JUST CREATED A BIG PROBLEM THAT HE CANNOT SOLVE! THAT’S BIBLICAL CRAZINESS TO THE HIGHEST LEVEL! OH MY!

    “AND THE WORD WAS GOD.”

    CERTAINLY, THERE ARE PASSAGES IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT ARE” HARD TO UNDERSTAND, WHICH IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE PEOPLE DISTORT” TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION (2 PT 3:16).

    IGNORANT PEOPLE ARE THOSE WHO ARE TAUGHT BY A FALSE ANGEL AND FALSE TEACHERS WHO HAVE ZERO KNOWLEDGE OF THE RABBINIC CONTEXT WHEREIN JESUS DECLARED HIS EQUALITY WITH GOD; THEY ALSO INCLUDE THOSE WHO ARE IGNORANT OF THE GREEK PHILOSOPHICAL BACKGROUND OF JOHN 1:1, WHO REDUCED THE LOGOS TO A MERE “THOUGHT, FOREKNOWLEDGE, AND MASTERPLAN” OF GOD, EVEN THOUGH THE VERSE DID NOT SAY SO!

    UNSTABLE PEOPLE INCLUDE THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS DECLARATION THAT HE IS GOD, BUT REFUSED TO ACCEPT IT, INSISTING INSTEAD THAT HE IS JUST A “MERE MAN” AND NOT GOD! UNSTABLE PEOPLE DO STRANGE THINGS LIKE COMPLICATING AND DISTORTING A SIMPLE BIBLICAL ASSERTION IN JOHN 1:1 IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY A BIG THEOLOGICAL MISTAKE! AND HOW CAN ANYONE BE NOT UNSTABLE WHEN IN HIS EFFORT TO DENY THE TRINITY, HE ENDS UP INVENTING HIS OWN VERSION OF THE TRINITY-UNWITTINGLY AT THAT?

    “AND THE WORD WAS GOD.”

  311. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “AGAIN, Christ WAS FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world…It was GOD the Father who FOREORDAINED about HIS SON…Christ was MANIFESTED…OR…the WORD was FULFILLED when that time had come…”

    ME:

    OKAY, YOU MEAN THE “LOGOS” WHO WAS CHRIST WAS FOREORDAINED? STILL, IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THE LOGOS WAS GOD! I FIND IT STRANGE THAT INSTEAD OF SAYING THAT THE “WORD WAS MADE FLESH,” YOU NOW JUST SAY THAT THE “WORD WAS FULFILLED.” WHAT A CREATIVE WAY OF SQUIGGLING YOUR WAY OUT OF PIT WHICH YOU YOURSELF HAS DUG! NO MATTER HOW YOU DISTORT THE VERSE, STILL, THE WORD AS “FOREORDAINED” WAS GOD; THE WORD WAS NOT SIMPLY FULFILLED BUT “WAS MADE FLESH” (V 14)!

    2.) IVAN:

    “FURTHERMORE, HOW CAN YOUR “TRINITY,” which you say Christ also is a part of, be doing the FOREORDINATION about HIMSELF???…Think about your DECEPTION, man…”

    ME:

    THAT’S BECAUSE THE ETERNAL NATURE OF GOD ESCAPES YOUR SHALLOW UNDERSTANDING. THE ETERNAL GOD DWELLS IN ETERNITY AND THEREFORE HE IS OUTSIDE OF TIME, BUT HE CHOSE TO ENTER TIME WHEN HE BECAME MAN IN THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.THINK ABOUT THAT IVAN!

    3.) IVAN:

    “Philippians 2:5-8 as you say speaks about that KENOSIS, self-empyting of God???
    FALSE INTERPRETATION…that’s what your KENOSIS is all about…
    See how you use that TRANSLATION? he he he..”

    ME:

    I SEE YOU HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT AGREE WITH YOUR ERRORS! LET’S GO TO THE GREEK TEXT THEN.

    IN VERSE 7, THE FIRST THREE GREEK WORDS READ, “ALLA HEAUTON EKENOSEN”

    ALLA = “BUT”, HEAUTON = “HIMSELF” AND EKENOSEN = “EMPTIED”.

    APPROPRIATELY TRANSLATED, IT READS: “BUT HE EMPTIED HIMSELF.”

    TAKE NOTE OF THE WORD “EKENOSEN.” THAT’S FROM WHERE WE GET THE WORD “KENOSIS” OR THE “SELF-EMPTYING” ACTION OF GOD IN THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST. IT IS THEREFORE A VERY BIBLICAL CONCEPT THAT YOU IVAN AND YOUR FALSE TEACHERS IN THE INC ARE SO IGNORANT OF! BUT NOW YOU KNOW! CONGRATULATIONS! HEHEHE!

    BUT YOU PREFERRED NKJV TRANSLATION OF VERSE 7 WHICH READS, “BUT MADE HIMSELF OF NO REPUTATION.” THOUGH AS WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN, IT IS FAR FROM BEING AN ACCURATE RENDITION OF THE GREEK TEXT. BUT, IT DOES NOT IN ANY WAY DILUTE NOR DENY THE MEANING OF “KENOSIS” – CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU WOULD WANT US TO BELIEVE! NJKV SIMPLY EXPRESSED KENOSIS IN A DIFFERENT WAY WITHOUT LOSING ITS INTENDED MEANING!!

    IVAN, NO MATTER HOW YOU DISTORT THE SCRIPTURES TO SUIT YOUR MISCONCEPTIONS, THE TRUTH WILL ALWAYS COME OUT!

  312. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “you see, man, AGAIN, that VERSE [john 1:1] implies the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God ABOUT HIS SON, the Lord Jesus Christ. That WORD or LOGOS in the beginning means a THOUGHT or FOREKNOWLEDGE. It is the MASTER PLAN of GOD for MANKIND…that MANKIND will be saved THROUGH HIS SON JESUS…”

    ME:

    IVAN READS JOHN 1:1 LIKE THIS:

    “IN THE BEGINING WAS THE F.T.M, (FOREKNOWLEDGE, THOUGHT, AND MASTERPLAN OF GOD), AND THE F.T.M. WAS WITH GOD, AND THE F.T.M. WAS GOD.”

    HAHAHA! WHAT A JOKE!

    BUT ANYWAY, JUST FOR FUN, LET US TRY TO GIVE SOME DIGNITY TO HIS VERSION BY TRANSLATING IT INTO GREEK. TAKE NOTE THAT THE GREEK WORD FOR FOREKNOWLEDGE IS “PROGNOSIS”; THOUGHT IS “SKEPSIS”; AND PLAN IS “PROGRAMMATIZO” OR “SCHEDIAZO”.

    BUT FIRST, HERE IS THE REAL GREEK TRANSLATION OF JOHN 1: I

    1. EN ARCHE EN HO LOGOS
    (In the beginning was the Word)

    2. KAI HO LOGOS EN PROS TON THEON
    (and the Word was with God)

    3. KAI THEOS EN HO LOGOS
    (and God was the Word)

    NOW, HERE IS IVAN’S VERSION IN GREEK:

    1. IN ARCHE EN HO PROGNOSIS, SKEPSIS, SCHEDIAZO,

    2. KAI HO PROGNOSIS, SKEPSIS, SCHEDIAZO EN PROS TON THEON,

    3. KAI THEOS EN HO PROGNOSIS, SKEPSIS, SCHEDIAZO”

    HAHAHA!!! HOW WOULD ANY ONE IN HIS RIGHT MIND BE ABLE TO READ JOHN 1:1 THIS WAY? OF COURSE IT IS NOT JOHN 1:1. IT IS IVAN 1:1, OR MANALO 1:1 HAHAHAHA!

    SEE? WHEN WE INJECT IVAN’S FUNNY INTERPRETATION TO THE ORIGINAL TEXT, IT IS NOT HARD TO SEE HOW HE AND HIS IGNORAMUS FALSE TEACHERS IN THE INC WERE ABLE TO MANGLE AND DISTORT THE WORD OF GOD SO AS TO JUSTIFY THEIR THEOLOGICAL ERROR! THE TRUTH IS JUST RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THEIR NOSES AND YET, THEY JUST LOOK THE OTHER WAY! IT IS VERY TRAGIC INDEED! AND NOT FUNNY ANYMORE!

  313. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN QUOTES PHIL 2:5-8,

    “NKJV gives us this translation of Phil 2:5-8 –
    5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

    THEN, HE MAKES THIS IGNORANT REMARK:

    “NOW, it’s GETTING CLEARER, isn’t it, MANNY???
    “It says there…Christ Jesus, who, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD…
    “Is being in the FORM OF GOD implies that CHRIST is “GOD”?
    “Come on, man…BE ENLIGHTENED…”

    “COMMON SENSE will guide you that “BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD” is VERY MUCH DIFFERENT from “BEING GOD.”

    MY COMMENT:

    LIKE HIS IGNORAMUS FALSE TEACHERS IN THE INC, IVAN IS OBVIOUSLY UNAWARE THAT BOTH ST. PAUL AND ST. JOHN WERE VERY COGNIZANT OF GREEK PHILOSOPHY.

    JOHN BORROWED FROM THE GREEKS THE TERM “LOGOS” WHOM THEY THOUGHT AS THE REASON AND CREATIVE POWER OF GOD, OR EVEN GOD HIMSELF, AND THEN HE APPLIED THIS TO JESUS WHOM HE CALLED THE “LOGOS” WHO WAS MADE FLESH. IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT THE REFERENCE POINTED TO JESUS AS GOD. (OF COURSE, SINCE IVAN’S MIND IS POISONED BY THE LIES OF A FALSE ANGEL, HE WOULD NOT ACCEPT THIS!)

    PAUL, ON THE OTHER HAND USED THE PLATONIC-ARISTOTELIAN TERM “FORM” TO DENOTE THE NATURE OF JESUS. ST THOMAS AQUINAS EXPLAINS THAT “through its form …a thing is said to be in a specific or generic nature; hence the form is called the nature of a thing. Consequently, to be in the form of God is to be in the nature of God.” PAUL THEREFORE IS AFFIRMING THAT JESUS, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, IS GOD! THAT’S VERY CLEAR!

    SO NOW, COMMON SENSE WILL GUIDE YOU IVAN THAT “BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD”IS VERY MUCH THE SAME AS” BEING GOD!” AND “BEING IN THE STATE OF CONFUSION” IS THE SAME AS “IVAN IS CONFUSED”. HEHEHE!

  314. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    I can see HOW HARD YOU TRY (even to use every ISM of this WORLD) just to DEFEND THAT FALSE MAN-MADE DOCTRINE, THE TRINITY…

    BUT, MAN, have you already asked yourself the QUESTIONS I told you over and over again??? LOL..lol…

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD?

    DID GOD OR CHRIST PREACH ABOUT YOUR FALSE DOCTRINE TRINITY?

    DID NOT CHRIST PREACH THAT THE FATHER WAS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD?”

    If you can answer those questions above with UTMOST HONESTY then you will find and SEE THE TRUTH…

    ———-

    YOU SAID:

    WHY DON’T YOU EXAMINE JOHN 1:1 AND PHIL 2:5-8 SO THAT YOU WOULD NOT GET LOST ON THE TRUTH ABOUT THE INCARNATION AND KENOSIS OF GOD?

    MY COMMENT:

    Read AGAIN my previous reply to you…UNDERSTAND them…DON’T BE STUBBORN!

    Again, just a brief reply since I’ve already given my ANSWERS to this issue with BIBLICAL PROOFS to support them. You know what….BETTER NOT IGNORE THEM and EXAMINE THOSE VERSES I’VE GIVEN YOU for your understanding…

    Those above references you’ve given DO NOT EVEN SAY that Christ Jesus is GOD. Moreso they DO NOT TEACH ABOUT THE “TRINITY.”

    ———-

    YOU SAID:

    HAHAHA! YOU ARE INDEED FUNNY IVAN! KENOSIS IS WHAT CHRIST DID WHEN HE “EMPTIED HIMSELF” BY BECOMING A MAN! YOUR ASSERTION IS IGNORANT, UNCRITICAL, AND MINDLESS! SORRY!

    MY COMMENT:

    What DID CHRIST DO, AGAIN, MANNY???

    Clarify your POSITION, man…LOL…lol… Oh, I get it…JUST ANOTHER FALSE ASSUMPTION…Isn’t it???

    WHO SENT CHRIST JESUS, in the first place, Manny???

    DID HE COME TO THE WORLD BY HIS OWN WILL???

    DID HE SAY THAT HE WAS GOD???

    WHO DID CHRIST REVEAL AS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD?”

    Be reminded that ADDING TO THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURE means GOING AGAINST GOD…False assumptions and MISINTERPRETATIONS are no different from that…

    One more thing…IF…IF apostle John was really recognizing Christ as God as you say verse John 1:1 is implying, THEN, WHY is that your “FALSE” BELIEF, FALSE ASSUMPTION I should say, contradicts every TRUTH revealed by Christ HIMSELF and the APOSTLES as well??? Think about that, man…

    Christ preaches that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE GOD (John 17:3, John 20:17). GOD is SPIRIT(John 4:24). Christ is a MAN. John 8:40 says —

    But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God.

    The verse above even states that the TRUTH that Christ has came from GOD (FATHER)…Contemplate on that, man…

    The apostles too teaches us that the FATHER is the ONE TRUE GOD (1 Cor 8:6, 2 Cor 1:3, Eph 1:3, 2 Cor 11:31, Eph 1:17, Col 1:3, 1 Thes 1:3, 1 Thes 3:13, 1 Peter 1:3… and so forth)

    Moreover, in Eph 4:4-6 this is written — 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    What is that again, man?

    “ONE GOD AND FATHER” of all…

    ———-

    AGAIN, man…You have to REEXAMINE how you DEFEND THE CATHOLIC LIES you have particularly on the TRINITY DOCTRINE…GO AGAIN TO YOUR RECENT POSTS…he he…lol…LOL…Those are just FULL OF FALSE INTERPRETATIONS and VAGUE ASSUMPTIONS…LOL…lol… Have you noticed??? Of course not…ha ha ha…

    In those LENGTHY explanations and argumentation you’ve just presented, how many BIBLICAL VERSES have you shown to support your claim??? Are you really using “your Bible” as the FOUNDATION of your “FAITH?” I guess NOT…LOL…lol…

    IT’S PRETTY OBVIOUS MAN…that the BASES of your CATHOLIC FAITH are from the PHILOSOPHY OF MAN…Be warned of such PHILOSOPHY…

    Colossians 2:8

    Beware lest anyone cheat you through PHILOSOPHY and empty DECEIT, according to the TRADITION OF MEN, according to the basic PRINCIPLES OF THIS WORLD, and NOT ACCORDING TO CHRIST. (emphasis mine)

  315. MANNY CRUZ says:

    I SAID:

    WE DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS VERSE (2THES 2:15) BECAUSE WE HOLD ON TO BOTH THE SPOKEN WORD AND THE WRITTEN WORD, EXACTLY AS PAUL INTENDED. THAT’S WHY WE CONDEMN YOUR HERETICAL DOCTRINE OF “SOLA SCRIPTURA” OR THE “BIBLE ALONE” THEORY WHICH THROWS OUT THE “SPOKEN WORD” OUT OF THE WINDOW. ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS FAITHFUL TO THIS ADMONITION OF ST PAUL, THAT’S WHY WE HAVE SACRED TRADITION, SACRED SCRIPTURES, AND THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE CHURCH AS THE PILLARS OF OUR FAITH.

    IVAN REPLIED:

    “HA HA HA…lol… MERE ASSERTIONS!!!”

    MY COMMENT:

    OF COURSE, THIS IS A FAMILIAR REFRAIN FROM IVAN WHENEVER HE STRUGGLES TO GIVE A SOUND REBUTTAL ON A POINT AT ISSUE. STATEMENTS OF FACT LIKE THE ABOVE ARE “MERE ASSERTIONS” FOR HIM. BUT THE IRONY IS THAT IVAN HIMSELF MAKES HIS OWN BRAND OF MERE ASSERTION. HEHEHE!

    FOR EXAMPLE, HE SAID: “HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT YOU HOLD ON TO BOTH THE SPOKEN WORD AND THE WRITTEN WORD WHEN YOU ARE NOT FAITHFUL TO THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES??? Think man, think!!! LOL…LOL…””

    SEE? INSTEAD OF DISPROVING THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UPHOLDS SACRED TRADITION, SACRED SCRIPTURES, AND MAGISTERIUM AS THE PILLARS OF FAITH, HE MERELY GAVE HIS FALSE OPINION! WHAT A WAY TO ARGUE HEHEHE!

  316. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “It will only take COMMON SENSE for you to realize that you are NOT FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.

    DID CHRIST PREACH ABOUT THE TRINITY???

    DID HE SAY THAT HE, BESIDES THE FATHER, WAS “GOD”???”

    Come on, man. he he he…Don’t be hard on yourself…DON’T GET STUCK IN THE LIES EMBEDDED IN YOU BY YOUR CHURCH…
    ————–

    ME:

    IVAN, IT WILL ONLY TAKE COMMON SENSE FOR YOU TO REALIZE THAT YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.

    DID HE SAY THAT HE IS JUST A “MERE MAN” AND NOT GOD?

    DID HE SAY THAT HIS CHURCH WILL ABANDON HIM, AND BE WIPED OUT FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH?

    DID CHRIST PREACH ABOUT AN ANGEL FROM THE PHILIPPINES?

    DID HE SAY THAT BESIDES HIM, THERE WILL BE A SECOND FOUNDER OF HIS CHURCH IN THE PERSON OF A RAPIST ANGEL WHOM THE CIVIL COURTS FOUND TO BE A “MERE” MAN OF LOW MORALS?

    DID CHRIST SAY THAT HIS CHURCH WILL BE REGISTERED UNDER THE NAME OF FELIX MANALO AS A CORPORATION?

    DID CHRIST SAY THAT HIS CHURCH WILL BE LED BY “EXECUTIVE MINISTERS” THAT COME ONLY FROM A SINGLE FAMILY?

    SO YOU SEE IVAN? YOUR OWN LINE OF QUESTIONING ONLY LEADS TO RIDICULOUS ENDS DETRIMENTAL TO YOUR OWN POSITION!!

    SO I SAY TO YOU IVAN, “Come on, man. he he he…Don’t be hard on yourself…DON’T GET STUCK IN THE LIES EMBEDDED IN YOU BY YOUR [FAKE] CHURCH…”

  317. MANNY CRUZ says:

    I SAID:

    ‘IN THE HEBREW TEXT OF JOHN 10:30, THE WORD USED FOR “ONE” IS “HEN.” IT IS NEUTER AND NOT MASCULINE. HENCE, THIS CANNOT MEAN THAT JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE IN PERSON OR ONE IN PURPOSE, MIND OR ACCORD! SINCE IT IS NEUTER, THE SENSE IS THAT JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE “ONE THING.” THIS CAN ONLY MEAN THAT THEY ARE ONE IN ESSENCE AND SUBSTANCE! WHAT IS ASSERTED HERE IS ESSENTIAL UNITY, OR UNITY OF ESSENCE! IVAN OF COURSE FAILED TO SEE THIS!’

    IVAN RELIED:

    “No matter how YOU TRY to COMPLICATE THINGS here, the TRUTH WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL…
    AS YOU SAID that “ONE” is “HEN” in Hebrew. SO, does that conclude that Christ Jesus and the Father are “ONE GOD”??????? Come, on man! You are FULL OF FALSE ASSUMPTIONS! lol…lol…”

    MY COMMENT:

    IVAN, THE USE OF THE WORD “HEN” IS INDEED A COMPLICATED THING TO DISCUSS, AND I’M AFRAID IT CANNOT BE MET USING YOUR SIMPLISTIC MIND!

    YOU HAVE TO TAKE NOTE IVAN THAT WORDS CAN HAVE VARIOUS LAYERS OF MEANING ACCORDING TO HOW THEY ARE USED IN A SENTENCE! IN THE CASE OF JOHN 10:30, THE TEXT IS CATEGORICAL. AS I ALREADY POINTED OUT, THE NEUTER “HEN” IMPLIES UNITY OF SUBSTANCE OR ESSENCE BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON.

    WHEN WE SPEAK OF UNITY IN MIND OR PURPOSE, THE WORD “HEIS” IS USED, AS IN THE CASE OF Gal 3:28, “for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    HOWEVER, “HEIS” CAN ALSO BE USED TO DENOTE THE ABSOLUTE UNITY OF GOD, AS IN THE CASE WHEN JESUS MAKES THE STATEMENT “The Lord our God is one Lord,” (MK 12:29) QUOTING THE SHEMA. HERE, THE WORD “HEIS” IS USED SIMPLY TO AGREE WITH THE MASCULINE “KURIOS” (LORD) AND ITS MEANING IS CLEARLY THAT OF SINGULARITY OF GOD AND NOT OF MIND OR PURPOSE.

    BUT, WHY “HEIS” IS NOT USED IN JOHN 10:30? IT WOULD SEEM TO BE THE MORE APPROPRIATE WORD TO USE IF THE IMPLICATION IS THE UNITY OF MIND OR PURPOSE (GAL 3:28). BESIDES, BOTH THE FATHER AND JESUS ARE MASCULINE! SO, WHY THE NEUTER “HEN” AND NOT THE MASCULINE “HEIS”?

    THE OBVIOUS REASON WHY THE VERSE DOES NOT USE “HEIS” IS THAT IT DOES NOT SPEAK ABOUT “UNITY OF MIND OR PURPOSE”. RATHER, IT SPEAKS ABOUT THE UNITY OF ESSENCE BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON. HENCE, THEY ARE “ONE THING” (HEN) OR ONE SUBSTANCE IN BEING GOD! THE FATHER AND JESUS ARE ONE GOD! THAT IS THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER!

    HOWEVER, JOHN 17:22 ALSO USED THE WORD “HEN” BUT THE MEANING IS THAT OF UNITY OF MIND OR PURPOSE! DOES IT MEAN THAT ALL BELIEVERS OF CHRIST ARE OF THE SAME ESSENCE WITH GOD? WELL, IF WE USE IVAN’S SIMPLISTIC APPROACH, THE ANSWER IS YES! BUT, OBVIOUSLY THAT’S NOT THE CASE.

    WHAT IS THE CASE THEN? THE CASE IS ULTIMATELY THE VERY FUNCTION OF THE WORD ITSELF. THUS, THE WORD “HEN” IN JOHN 17 FUNCTIONS AN ANALOGOUS TERM TO THE “HEN” OF JOHN 10:30

    SIMPLY PUT, THE EXTERNAL UNITY OF ALL THE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST IS ONLY ANALOGOUS, PATTERNED AFTER, AND DERIVED FROM THE ESSENTIAL UNITY (OR UNITY OF ESSENCE) OF THE FATHER AND THE SON, AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

    IT IS THEREFORE A BIG MISTAKE TO SAY THAT THE “HEN” OF ALL BELIEVERS IS THE MODEL OR PROTOTYPE FOR THE “HEN” OF THE FATHER AND JESUS. UNFORTUNATELY, THIS IS BASICALLY WHAT IVAN WANTS US TO BELIEVE, THAT BOTH “HENS” ARE THE SAME AND SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD ON THE SAME LEVEL. YET, AS WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN, BOTH “HENS” ARE ONLY ANALOGOUSLY THE SAME, BUT ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT!

    ACTUALLY, WE CAN UNDERSTAND THIS BETTER IF WE TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION OTHER VERSES THAT INVOLVED ANALOGOUS USE OF WORDS. FOR EXAMPLE, JESUS SAID, “Love one another, as I have loved you.”

    HERE, SIMPLE LOGIC TELLS US THAT OUR LOVE MUST BE EXACTLY THE SAME AS THAT OF JESUS. HOW DID JESUS LOVE US? WELL, HE LOVED US BY WAY OF GIVING HIMSELF AND DYING ON THE CROSS FOR US. BUT, IN REALITY, WE ARE NOT REALLY EXPECTED TO BE NAILED TO THE CROSS EXACTLY AS JESUS WAS. BUT WE ARE EXPECTED TO GIVE OURSELVES AND DO SOME SACRIFICES OF OUR OWN. HENCE, OUR LOVE IS ONLY ANALOGOUSLY THE SAME, BUT ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF JESUS. (SEE ALSO JOHN 20:21; MAT 16:24).

    THE WORD “HEN” SIMPLY FUNCTIONS THIS WAY! BUT IVAN AND HIS FALSE TEACHERS ARE SO BLIND THAT THY FAILED TO SEE THIS!

  318. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “So, for you to find out what that STATEMENT really means, you have to UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT from where you get that verse. FYI, AGAIN, FYI, AGAIN… Christ was speaking about HIS SHEEP that the FATHER (GOD) had given him. That statement, “I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE,” is a CONCLUDING REMARK from Christ himself about their, as I said previously, UNITY IN TAKING CARE OF THE FLOCK.”

    ME:

    IVAN PRETENDED TO EXPLAIN, BUT WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING, THE CONTEXT JOHN 10:22-30. AS A RESULT, HE ENDED UP DISTORTING THE TEXT ITSELF EVEN AS HE INJECTED HIS OWN FAULTY INTERPRETATION TO IT! HIS CONCLUSION REVEALS A SHALLOW, SUPERFICIAL, UNINSPIRED, AND UNCRITICAL READING OF THE TEXT. WELL, WHAT CAN YOU EXPECT FROM A DISCIPLE OF A FALSE ANGEL AND A STUDENT OF FALSE TEACHERS?

    HE SAID THAT THE STATEMENT “THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE” IN VERSE 30 IS A CONCLUDING REMARK ABOUT JESUS AND THE FATHER’S UNITY IN TAKING CARE OF THE FLOCK! OF COURSE HE IS TOTALLY WRONG!

    BUT FIRST OF ALL, I DO NOT DENY THE FACT THAT JESUS AND THE FATHER HAVE SOME KIND OF UNITY IN TAKING CARE OF THE FLOCK. BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT THE TEXT IS SAYING. ONCE AGAIN, IVAN EXPOSES HIS IGNORANCE. HIS FALSE TEACHERS NEVER TAUGHT HIM PROPERLY! HEHEHE! LET ME EXPLAIN WHY:

    1.) JOHN 10:22-30 IS THE CLIMAX OF JESUS’ DIALOGUES WITH JEWISH AUTHORITIES, WHOM JOHN COLLECTIVELY REFERRED TO AS “THE JEWS”. IT BEGAN WITH THE JEWS’ QUESTION ABOUT WHO JESUS IS AND IT ENDED WITH JESUS’ ANSWER TO THE SAME QUESTION. HENCE, VERSE 30 IS RATHER THE SUMMATION OF JESUS’ RESPONSE TO THE JEWISH QUESTION IN VERSE 24: TAKE NOTE IVAN THAT PRIOR TO THIS EPISODE, JESUS HAD ALREADY TOLD THEM THAT HIS WORDS ARE GOD’S WORDS AND HIS WORKS ARE GOD’S WORKS. (SEE 5: 17- 40). AND NOW, AT THE CLIMAX OF HIS DISCUSSION WITH THE JEWS, HE MADE HIS FINAL ANSWER TO THEM BY ASSERTING THAT HE IS NO ORDINARY MESSIAH AND SHEPHERD – BECAUSE HE IS ALSO ONE IN ESSENCE WITH THE FATHER, THAT IS, HE IS MAKING HIMSELF GOD. IN FACT, THE JEWS REACTED ACCORDINGLY, CHARGING HIM WITH BLASPHEMY. “YOU, A MERE MAN, ARE MAKING YOURSELF GOD” (V 33).

    2.) THAT JESUS IS MAKING HIMSELF GOD IS THE CLEAR AND UNEQUIVOCAL MESSAGE THAT THE JEWS GOT FROM THE MOUTH OF JESUS HIMSELF. THEIR REACTION AND SUBSEQUENT ACCUSATION, IN OTHER WORDS, WERE BASED ON THEIR FIRST HAND INFORMATION AND EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT – AND NOT FROM A HOGWASH, HEARSAY, AND ARIUS-INSPIRED “TSISMIS” OF A FALSE ANGEL CALLED FELIX MANALO.

    3. LET ME REPEAT, VERSE 30 IS JESUS’ DECLARATION THAT HE IS GOD. BUT THE JEWS DID NOT BELIEVE HIM. SO HERE, WE CAN CLEARLY SEE THAT VERSE 33 IS A REPRISE OF VERSE 25 WHEREIN JESUS SAID, “I TOLD YOU, BUT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE.” JESUS TOLD THEM THAT HE IS GOD, BUT THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. THEY DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE IS “MAKING HIMSELF GOD” BECAUSE FOR THEM, JESUS IS A “MERE MAN” AND NOT GOD (V 33).

    4.) IF VERSE 33 IS A REPRISE OF VERSE 25, THEN THE FELIX MANALO, ARIUS, IVAN, AND THE REST OF HIS FALSE TEACHERS IN THE INC ARE THE” RE-INCARNATION” OF THE JEWS WHO KILLED JESUS, THE LORD AND THE AUTHOR OF LIFE (ACTS 3:15).

    5.) NOW, LET US GO BACK TO IVAN’S SHALLOW, SUPERFICIAL, UNINSPIRED, AND UNCRITICAL CONCLUSION THAT JESUS WAS MERELY ASSERTING HIS AGREEMENT OR UNITY WITH THE FATHER IN TAKING CARE OF THE FLOCK. FIRST OF ALL, THE JEWS CARED NOTHING ABOUT JESUS’ SHEEP AND HIS WAY OF TAKING CARE OF THEM. THAT IS NOT THEIR CONCERN, SO WHY WOULD JESUS TELL THEM THAT? SECONDLY, IF SOMEONE WOULD ASK IVAN, “WHO ARE YOU?”, IT WOULD BE STUPID FOR HIM HIM TO ANSWER, “I AND MY FATHER ARE IN UNITY IN TAKING CARE OF OUR PIGSTY.” THAT ANSWER IS A COMPLETE NONSENSE. BUT IVAN IS MAKING IT APPEAR THAT JESUS ANSWERED IN A SIMILAR NONSENSICAL WAY. THIRDLY, WE CAN EASILY SEE HOW THE JEWS’ REACTION IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR AND TOTALLY WAY OUT OF PLACE! SURELY IT WOULD BE TOO RIDICULOUS TO ACCUSE A PERSON OF BLASPHEMY FOR THE SIMPLE ACT OF AGREEMENT WITH GOD. FOR SURE IVAN AGREES WITH GOD THAT HIS FLOCK SHOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF, AND FOR THAT MATTER HE IS IN UNITY WITH GOD. BUT, IT WOULD BE FOOLISH FOR HIS FALSE TEACHERS TO ACCUSE HIM OF BLASPHEMY FOR DOING SO!! GET MY POINT IVAN?

    6.) FURTHERMORE, JESUS MENTIONED HIS SHEEP IN VERSE 26-28, AS AN EXPLANATION FOR THE JEWS UNBELIEF IN HIS WORDS AND WORKS. THEY DID NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT HIS SHEEP (V 26).

    7.) THEN JESUS WENT ON TO ESTABLISH THE DIGNITY OF HIS SHEEP: THAT THEY HEAR HIS VOICE, THEY FOLLOW HIM, GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, PROTECTED FROM PERDITION, SECURED IN GOD’S HANDS (V 26-29). THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT A MANUAL FOR TAKING CARE OF HIS SHEEP, AS WHAT IVAN AND HIS FALSE TEACHERS HAD MISTAKENLY THOUGHT.

    8.) MOREOVER, JESUS ASCRIBES A LOFTY STATUS FOR HIS SHEEP IN ORDER TO SHOW ITS SHARP CONTRAST AGAINST THE LOWLY STATUS OF THE “JEWS” WHOM JESUS EARLIER BRANDED AS BELONGING TO THE DEVIL.

    4.) IN THIS WHOLE EPISODE, THE BRIDGE THAT SETS UP JESUS’ DECLARATION OF HIS DIVINITY IS IN VERSES 28-29. IN VERSE 28, THE SHEEP WERE ALREADY IN JESUS’ HANDS. BUT IN VERSE 29, SOMEHOW THEY STILL REMAINED IN THE FATHER’S HAND. SO WHICH HAND IS IT? ST THOMAS AQUINAS EXPLAINED IT THIS WAY: “[JESUS] reason is this: No one can snatch what is in the hand of my Father; but the Father’s hand and mine are the same; therefore, no one can snatch what is in my hand. Thus he says, I and the Father are one. As if to say: no one shall snatch them out of my hand, because I and the Father are one, by a unity of essence, for the Father and the Son are the same in nature.”

    10. THE FATHER’S HAND AND JESUS’ HAND ARE THE SAME HAND, AND THIS PAVES THE WAY FOR JESUS FINAL AFFIRMATION OF WHO HE IS, IN RESPONSE TO THE JEWISH QUESTION ABOUT HIS IDENTITY IN VERSE 24; THAT IS, HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE IN ESSENCE, ONE IN NATURE OF BEING GOD.

    11.) ONLY IN THIS CONTEXT THAT WE CAN TRULY UNDERSTAND THE JEWS’ CHARGE OF BLASPHEMY AND THEIR SUBSEQUENT ACT OF KILLING JESUS. IVAN’S SHALLOW, SUPERFICIAL, UNINSPIRED, AND UNCRITICAL CONCLUSION THEREFORE DESERVES A SPOT IN A STINKY DUMP SITE NEAR HIS HOUSE!

  319. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    YOU SAID:

    SEE? INSTEAD OF DISPROVING THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UPHOLDS SACRED TRADITION, SACRED SCRIPTURES, AND MAGISTERIUM AS THE PILLARS OF FAITH, HE MERELY GAVE HIS FALSE OPINION! WHAT A WAY TO ARGUE HEHEHE!

    MY COMMENT:

    Focus, man…LOL…

    We are still talking about your FALSE TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE. That is, you base your FALSE BELIEF on the philosophy and tradition of men. AND SO, the problem with your FALSE TRINITY BELIEF is that it is not based on the teachings of Christ.

    Are we clear on that?

    Man, how dare you CLAIM you uphold the SACRED SCRIPTURES! lol…lol… Your belief on the TRINITY alone is a CLEAR PROOF of your UNFAITHFULNESS to the WORDS OF GOD, to the TEACHINGS OF GOD found in the Holy Scriptures.

    By the way, AGAIN, did Christ say or preach that he was God??? DID HE PREACH ABOUT THE TRINITY (3 persons in one God)??? Come on, man, answer!!! DID CHRIST PREACH THE TRINITY as the ONE TRUE GOD??? PROVE IT…

    ————-

    YOU SAID:

    DID HE SAY THAT HE IS JUST A “MERE MAN” AND NOT GOD?

    MY ANSWER:

    What Christ SAID and PREACHED was that he is a MAN…and…THAT THE ONLY TRUE GOD was the FATHER ALONE.

    That’s the problem with you, MANNY!!! You are used to putting words into other people’s mouths. Now, you even trying to do that with Christ…LOL…lol…

    Your LIES really CONSUME you, that’s why…he he he…

    In John 8:39-41 this is written —

    39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

    Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

    FYI, Manny, Christ said that he was a MAN…

    AND, WHAT DO THE APOSTLES TEACH ABOUT CHRIST?

    In 1 Timothy 2:5 this is also written —

    5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

    HOW DID CHRIST JESUS REVEAL THE FATHER as the ONE TRUE GOD?

    In John 17:1-3 it says —

    17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    AND, John 20:17 —

    17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

    MOREOVER, WHAT ELSE DID CHRIST SAY ABOUT GOD THE FATHER?

    John 4:23-24 —

    23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    GOD IS SPIRIT…

    ———–

    You see man, you really CANNOT defend the LIE that the Catholic Church made about GOD. The TRINITY DOCTRINE is NOT TAUGHT by Christ. MORESO, THAT TEACHING IS NOT FROM GOD. You have been deceived by your FATHER OF LIES, the DEVIL (John 8:42-47), to LEAD you to PERDITION.

    Mt 7:21 states —

    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    ———-

    By the way, MANNY, WHO MADE JESUS “LORD” AND “CHRIST?”

    In Acts 2:36 we can read —

    36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    FYI, Manny, it was GOD THE FATHER who MADE Jesus LORD AND CHRIST!

    AGAIN, it was the WILL OF GOD THE FATHER that Christ BECAME LORD AND CHRIST.

    ———

    There is NO TEACHING in the Bible about your DELUSION that Christ is GOD. in the first place, he NEVER PREACHED about him being GOD during his MINISTRY with his apostles, FYI, FYI…

    SO, where did the Catholic Church get that TEACHING ON THE TRINITY? Man, it was INVENTED by your church. You formulated your GOD as THE FULFILLMENT OF THE “APOSTASY” forewarned by the apostles.

    Acts 20:29 —

    For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, NOT SPARING THE FLOCK. (emphasis mine)

    1 Timothy 4:1-3 —

    4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

    Manny, is FORBIDDING TO MARRY a VOW that every man who is entering priesthood in your church should take? That is CELIBACY, right? How about abstaining from eating foods? Oh, manny, that by the way is also found in your church…DURING your “Holy Week”…Those are DOCTRINES OF DEMONS…

    AND, 2 Cor 11:3 —

    3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    ALSO in 2 Thes 2:3 this is what it says —

    3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

    ———-

    You see man, that TURNING AWAY FROM CHRIST, or the APOSTASY, has already been FOREWARNED in the Bible. NOW, how can you tell that IT HAS BEEN FULFILLED? Look at your Catholic Church…Study your history. Did your church remained loyal to the TEACHINGS of Christ and the apostles??? Christ and the apostles teach that the ONE TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER “ALONE.” Who or WHAT does the RCC teach as “ONE GOD?” Of course, the TRINITY (3 PERSONS IN “ONE GOD”). Is that preached by Christ or by God??? Of course, NOT…

    The Bible teaches that the FATHER is the ONE TRUE GOD. (Isaiah 45:5, 1 Chronicles 29:10, Malachi 2:10, John 17:1-3, John 20:17, Mark 12:28-34, Eph. 4:6)

    Galatians 1:3-4 states —

    3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of OUR GOD AND FATHER, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. (emphasis mine)

    ————-

    THEN, you turn to ATTACKING Bro. Felix Manalo, the last messenger in the last days…he he he…

    You CANNOT even DEFEND your FALSE TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE, now you even have the nerve to attack the last messenger!!! Come on, man!!! Your FALSE BELIEF ON THE TRINITY alone already PROVES THE “TOTAL” APOSTASY OF THE CHURCH…and…THE CATHOLIC CHURCH… IS A FALSE CHURCH…

    ————-

    NOW, you go back to your “hen” argument again…LOL..LOL…

    By the way, which came first the “hen” or the “egg?” Oh, that’s chicken not hen, right? JUST KIDDING…lol..lol…he he…

    Anyways, Manny, you cannot prove that Christ is God by using that verse, John 10:30… OF COURSE without TWISTING THE TRUTH. lol..lol…

    AGAIN, John 10:22-30 —

    22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “HOW LONG DO YOU KEEP US IN DOUBT? IF YOU ARE THE CHRIST, TELL US PLAINLY.” (Emphasis mine)

    25 JESUS ANSWERED THEM (emphasis mine), “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

    FYI, the ANSWER of Jesus to the Jews was ABOUT HIM BEING THE CHRIST.

    AND, you cannot just CONCLUDE that the “ONE” in verse 30 “I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE” means “ONE GOD.”

    That is only your FALSE ASSUMPTION. That is not what is WRITTEN. You are just ADDING to what is already written in the Scripture. WAKE UP, MAN! WAKE UP!!! lol…lol…

    Just use your COMMON SENSE and you will have a better perspective of the verse.

    DID CHRIST, DURING HIS MINISTRY, PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD…OR…THE “TRINITY” (3 PERSONS IN ONE GOD) WAS THE ONE TRUE GOD??? DID THE APOSTLES RECOGNIZE AND PREACH THAT TRINITY DOCTRINE??? Come on, man…THINK…FOCUS…Don’t be LAZY…READ “your Bible” and READ MY REPLIES and DON’T IGNORE THE BIBLE VERSES I GAVE YOU…STUDY THEM…

  320. MANNY CRUZ says:

    I SAID:

    SEE? INSTEAD OF DISPROVING THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UPHOLDS SACRED TRADITION, SACRED SCRIPTURES, AND MAGISTERIUM AS THE PILLARS OF FAITH, HE MERELY GAVE HIS FALSE OPINION! WHAT A WAY TO ARGUE HEHEHE!

    IVAN REPLIED:

    Focus, man…LOL…

    We are still talking about your FALSE TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE. That is, you base your FALSE BELIEF on the philosophy and tradition of men. AND SO, the problem with your FALSE TRINITY BELIEF is that it is not based on the teachings of Christ.
    Are we clear on that?”

    MANNY SAID:

    AGAIN, IVAN DOES NOT ARGUE PROPERLY HERE. HE OBVIOUSLY DOES NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THE CATHOLIC CLAIM OF HAVING THREE PILLARS OF THE FAITH, NAMELY, SACRED SCRIPTURES, SACRED TRADITION, AND MAGISTERIUM. HE JUST QUOTED MY STATEMENT AND THEN IGNORED IT.

    HE MADE IT SOUND THAT THE TRINITY WAS THE ISSUE HERE. PERHAPS HIS STYLE OF DECEPTION? HEHEHE. NOT SO FAST MAN. CAN’T YOU SEE I’M STILL DEBUNKING YOUR DEFECTIVE REASONING AND EXPOSING YOUR GLARING IGNORANCE ON SO MANY ISSUES RELATING YOUR FALSE INTERPRETATION OF BIBLICAL VERSES?

    BUT, TO HIS CREDIT, HE CERTAINLY HAS MASTERED THE ART OF GIVING ONE FALSE OPINION AFTER ANOTHER. HAHAHAH!

    IVAN SAID:

    “Man, how dare you CLAIM you uphold the SACRED SCRIPTURES! lol…lol… Your belief on the TRINITY alone is a CLEAR PROOF of your UNFAITHFULNESS to the WORDS OF GOD, to the TEACHINGS OF GOD found in the Holy Scriptures”

    MANNY SAID:
    .
    HOW DARE YOU CLAIM TO UPHOLD “OUR” BIBLE!!!!! IT’S NOT YOUR BOOK!!!!THAT’S OURS. YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR GIVING YOU THE BIBLE. WITHOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, YOU IVAN WOULD NOT BE AN INC AT ALL. EVEN THE VILEST ENEMY OF THE CHURCH, MARTIN LUTHER, HIMSELF HAD SOME KIND OF GRATITUDE TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. HE SAID, LISTEN:

    “We are compelled to concede to the papists that they have the Word of God; that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all.”

    SEE THAT IVAN? IT MEANS THAT WITHOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE ANY BASIS FOR FORMULATING YOUR OWN MAN-MADE DOCTRINE ABOUT A FALSE ANGEL NAMED FELIX MANALO, ETC. WITHOUT US, NO YOU!!!!

    GET IT?

    MAG THANK YOU KA NAMAN DYAN, HEHEHE!

    IF YOU CAN’T DO IT, THEN GO MAKE YOUR OWN BIBLE AND BAPTIZE THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER (FELIX) AND OF THE SON (ERANO) AND THE APO (EDUARDO)!!!HAHAHAHA! INC TRINITY!!!! LOL!! LOL LOL

    IVAN SAID:

    “By the way, AGAIN, did Christ say or preach that he was God??? DID HE PREACH ABOUT THE TRINITY (3 persons in one God)??? Come on, man, answer!!! DID CHRIST PREACH THE TRINITY as the ONE TRUE GOD??? PROVE IT…”

    MANNY REPLIED:

    IVAN HERE ACTED AS IF NOTHING HAD BEEN DISCUSSED ABOUT THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST. WE HAVE SEVERAL POSTS THAT TACKLED THE THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE AND YET, IVAN SOMEHOW MANAGED TO FEIGN IGNORANCE ABOUT THEM. WHAT A PITY.

    CHRIST DID NOT SIMPLY PREACH THE TRINITY. HE COMMANDED IT: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Mat 28:19.

    Thus, every Christian must bear the NAME of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT. Since the INC denied the TRINITY, they cannot be called Christians. Sorry ka na lang Ivan!

    I ASKED, “DID HE SAY THAT HE IS JUST A “MERE MAN” AND “NOT GOD”?

    IVAN, AS USUAL GAVE A LAME ANSWER. HE SAID: “What Christ SAID and PREACHED was that he is a MAN…and…THAT THE ONLY TRUE GOD was the FATHER ALONE.”

    IN SHORT, HE DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION. HAHAHA!

    IT’S REALLY A MYSTERY THAT IVAN COULD NOT BRING HIMSELF TO SAY DIRECTLY THAT CHRIST PREACHED THAT HE IS JUST A” MERE MAN” AND “NOT GOD”. BUT MY GUESS IS THAT HE DOES NOT WANT TO PUT HIMSELF IN THE SAME POSITION AS THE KILLERS OF JESUS WHO BELIEVED EXACTLY AS IVAN DID. OR MAYBE HE IS HORRIFIED TO CONFRONT THE GHOSTS OF HIS FOREFATHERS WHO WERE RE THE KILLERS OF JESUS HAHAHAHA!

    IVAN SAID:

    “That’s the problem with you, MANNY!!! You are used to putting words into other people’s mouths. Now, you even trying to do that with Christ…LOL…lol…”

    MANNY SAID:

    AHEM. IVAN, YOU AND YOUR FALSE TEACHERS WERE THE ONES WHO PUT THE JEWS’ WORDS INTO YOUR OWN MOUTHS. THEY SAID, “YOU [JESUS], A MERE MAN, ..” (JOHN 10:33). THEY BELIEVE EXACTLY LIKE YOU DO, AND YOU SAY EXACTLY LIKE THEY SAY! GULAT KA BA, IVAN?

    IVAN SAID:

    “In John 8:39-41 this is written –
    39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
    Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

    FYI, Manny, Christ said that he was a MAN…”

    MANNY SAID:

    HUMIRIT KA, SABLAY NAMAN HEHEHE! WHAT ANIMAL HAS TOLD YOU THAT CHRIST NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS A MAN? OF COURSE WE BELIEVE HE WAS A TRUE MAN. HE WAS ALSO TRUE GOD. THE BIBLE TOLD US THAT HE, THE WORD MADE FLESH, WAS GOD (JOHN 1:1). JESUS HIMSELF TOLD US, BUT, LIKE THE KILLERS OF JESUS, YOU DID NOT BELIEVE (JOHN 10:25).

    JESUS HIMSELF TOLD US, BUT, LIKE HIS KILLERS, YOU DID NOT BELIEVE (JOHN 10:25). AND LIKE THEM, YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND. YOU DID NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND. AND THOSE WHO NEVER UNDERSTOOD ENDED UP CRUCIFYING THE LORD OF GLORY. “None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” (1 Cor 2:8).

    THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT JESUS IS GOD, BECAUSE FOR THEM, HE WAS JUST A MERE MAN, IVAN AND HIS FALSE TEACHERS WOULD DEFINITELY AGREE WITH THEM. AND SO THEY ALL ENDED UP CRUCIFYING THE LORD (GOD) OF GLORY.

    IVAN CITED I TIMOTHY 2:5 WITHOUT PROPERLY UNDERSTANDING IT. ALTHOUGH IT SAYS THAT JESUS IS A MAN, IT DOES NOT SAYS HE IS “ONLY A MAN” AND “NOT GOD.” HE HAS COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN THE FACT THAT THIS MAN, THE MEDIATOR, WAS FIRST AND FOREMOST THE WORD OF GOD, WHO WAS GOD, AND WAS LATER MADE FLESH. HE CITED THIS VERSE IN ISOLATION, AS IF IT’S THE ONLY PASSAGE IN THE BIBLE. THAT’S THE PROBLEM WITH IVAN’S POSITION IVAN. AND IT ONLY LED HIM TO GRAVE ERRORS.

  321. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN ASKED:

    “AND, WHAT DO THE APOSTLES TEACH ABOUT CHRIST?”

    MY ANSWER:

    THE APOSTLES TAUGHT THAT JESUS WAS A MAN:

    “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,” (1 Timothy 2:5) “:

    BUT THE APOSTLES ALSO TAUGHT THAT JESUS IS GOD:

    1. HE IS THE WORD OF GOD.

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…(John 1:1, 14).

    “And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God” (Rev 19:13).

    2. HIS NATURE IS GOD.

    “Who, being in very naturea God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (Phil 2:6)

    3. BUT HE ASSUMED A HUMAN NATURE.

    7”but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant…”(Phil 2:6-7)

    4. HE IS GOD REVEALED AS A MAN.

    “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (I Tim 3:16)

    “9 For in Christ all the fullness of the DEITY LIVES IN BODILY FORM” (Col 2:9).

    “And the WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt amongst us”(John 1:14).

    5. HE IS A MAN PROCLAIMED AS GOD.

    “That if you confess with your mouth, “JESUS IS LORD,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”(Rom 10:9)

    “13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our GREAT GOD and SAVIOR, Jesus Christ,” (Titus 2:13).

    “To those who through the righteousness of our GOD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours”(2 Peter 1:1)

    6. HE IS WORSHIPED AS GOD.

    “After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews?We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”(Mat 2:2)”

    11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and WORSHIPED him.”(Mat 2:11)

    33 And those who were in the boat WORSHIPED Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”( Mat 14:33)

    “37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he WORSHIPED him” (John 9:37-38)

    “And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” (Heb 1:6)

    For your enlightenment Ivan, there are more verses in the Bible that point to Christ’s divinity than to his humanity. And there is absolutely no verse that says “JESUS IS MAN ONLY AND NOT GOD.” That verse exists only in the corrupted and deceived minds of the killers of Jesus and their modern reincarnation personified by Ivan, his false angel, and his false teachers in the INC.

  322. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN CITED JOHN 17:1-3, BUT WITHOUT EXPLAINING ANYTHING, HE MADE IT SOUND LIKE THESE VERSES SAID THAT “JESUS IS ONLY A MAN AND NOT GOD”. HE USED THIS TO HIGHLIGHT THE FATHER AS THE ONE TRUE GOD, BUT IN DOING SO, HE COMPLETELY FORGOT THAT THE TEXT WAS ALSO EQUALLY ABOUT THE SON WHOSE NATURE IS GOD (Phil 2:6) AND WHOSE ESSENCE IS ONE WITH HIM ( John 10:30). AS USUAL, IVAN’S INTERPRETATION IS AGAIN IS VERY WRONG!!!

    FIRST OF ALL, THE TEXT SPEAKS ABOUT THE GLORIFICATION OF THE FATHER BY THE SON, AND THE SON BY THE FATHER (V 1).

    SECONDLY, IT SPEAKS ABOUT THE SON HAVING AUTHORITY OVER ALL HUMAN BEINGS AND HAVING POWER TO GIVE ETERNAL LIFE (V2)

    THIRDLY, IT SPEAKS ABOUT THE FACT THAT KNOWING THE ONE TRUE GOD IS INSEPARABLE FROM KNOWING JESUS CHRIST.

    THUS, CONTRARY TO IVAN’S FALSE ASSUMPTIONS, THE TEXT IS NOT A DENIAL BUT RATHER AN EXPRESSION OF THE DIVINITY OF JESUS.

    FOR YOUR PROPER GUIDANCE IVAN, HERE’S ST. THOMAS AQUINAS. LISTEN AND READ CAREFULLY:

    (Accessed from http://dhspriory.org/thomas/SSJohn.htm)

    PART 1

    “We should say that Christ asked to be glorified by the Father in three ways. First, in his passion, and this was done by the many miracles which occurred: for the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent, and graves were opened. This was referred to before (12:28): “I have glorified it,” by the miracles occurring before the passion, “and I will glorify it again,” during the passion. With this understanding Christ says, glorify me in my passion by showing that I am your Son. And so the centurion, after seeing the miracles, said: “Truly, this was the Son of God” (Mt 27:54).

    “Secondly, Christ sought to be glorified in his resurrection. His holy soul was always joined to God and possessed glory from the vision of God: “We have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father” (1:14). From the beginning of his conception, his soul was glorified, but in the resurrection he had glory of body also, referred to in “Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body” (Phil 3:21). Thirdly, he sought to be glorified in the knowledge of all people: “Because of her I shall have glory among the multitudes and honor in the presence of the elders” (Wis 8:10).

    “And so he says, glorify your Son, that is, show the entire world that I am your Son, in the strict sense: by birth, not by creation (in opposition to Arius, who said that the Son of God is a creature); in truth, not just in name (against Sabellius, who said that the same person is now called Father and then called Son); by origin, not adoption (in opposition to Nestorius, who said that Christ was an adopted son).
    (
    2182 Now we see the fruit of his being glorified: first, the fruit is mentioned; secondly, it is explained, since you have given him power…

    2183 The fruit of the Son’s being glorified is that the Father is glorified; thus he says, that the Son may glorify you. When Arius observed that our Lord said, glorify your Son, he supposed that the Father is greater than the Son. This is true if we consider the Son in his human nature: “The Father in greater than I” (14:28). Consequently, Christ adds, that the Son may glorify you (in the knowledge of men) to show he is equal to the Father as regards the divine nature. Now glory is renown joined with praise. Formerly, God was renowned among the Jews: “In Judah God is known” (Ps 76:1); but later, through his Son, he was known throughout the entire world. Holy people also increase God’s renown by their good works: “That they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven” (Mt 5:16). Above Christ said: “I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it and he will be the judge” (8:50).

    2184 Now we have the fruit of Christ’s request: first, we see the benefit conferred on us by Christ; secondly, he shows that this benefit is related to the glory of the Father (v 3).

    1285 He says, that the Son may glorify you, and this since you have given him power over all flesh. We should know that what acts in virtue of another tends in its effect to reveal that other: for the action of a principle which proceeds from another principle manifests this principle. Now whatever the Son has he has from the Father; and thus it is necessary that what the Son does manifests the Father. Thus he says to the Father, you have given him power over all human beings. By this power the Son ought to lead them to a knowledge of t he Father, which is eternal life. This is the meaning of,that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him power over all flesh, that is, over all human beings: “All flesh shall see the salvation of God” (Lk 3:6).

    You have given him [this power], says Hilary, by giving, through an eternal generation, the divine nature to the Son, from which the Son has the power to embrace all things: “All things have been delivered to me by my Father” (Mt 11:27); “For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing” (5:20).[2] Or, in another way, you have given this power to Christ in his human nature because this nature is united with your Son to form one person. And in this way flesh has power over flesh: “All authority [power] in heaven and on earth has been given me” (Mt 28:18); “And to him,” that is, the Son of man, “was given dominion and glory and kingdom” (Dan 7:14).

    He says, Father, you have given him power: Father, just as you have power, not to wrest things from your human creatures, but to give yourself to them, so you have given power to Christ in his human nature, power over all flesh, so that he may give eternal life to all whom you have given him, through eternal predestination: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them” (10:27).

  323. MANNY CRUZ says:

    (Accessed from http://dhspriory.org/thomas/SSJohn.htm)

    PART II

    2186 But is the eternal life given to men related to the glory of the Father? Indeed it is, for this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent, who was sent so that the Father could be glorified by being known by men.

    Two things need explanation here. First, why he says, this is eternal life, that they may know. Note that strictly speaking, we call those things living which move themselves to their activities. Those things which are only moved by other things are not living, but dead. And so all those activities to which an active thing moves itself are called living activities, for example, to will, to understand, to sense, to grow and to move about. Now a thing is said to be alive in two senses. First because it has living activities in potency, as one who is asleep is said to have sensitive life because it has the power to move itself about, although it is not actually doing so. Or, something is said to be alive because it is actually engaged in living activities, and then it is alive in the full sense. For this reason one who is asleep is said to be half alive. Among living activities the highest is the activity of the intellect, which is to understand. And thus the activity of the intellect is living activity in the highest degree. Now just as the sense in act is identified with the sense object in act, so also the intellect in act is identified with the thing understood in act. Since then intellectual understanding is living activity, and to understand is to live, it follows that to understand an eternal reality is to live with an eternal life. But God is an eternal reality, and so to understand and see God is eternal life.

    Accordingly our Lord says that eternal life lies in vision, in seeing, that is, it consists in this basically and in its whole substance. But it is love which moves one to this vision, and is in a certain way its fulfillment: for the completion and crown of beatitude (happiness) is the delight experienced in the enjoyment of God, and this is caused by charity. Still, the substance of beatitude consists in vision, seeing: “We shall see him as he is” (1 Jn 3:2).

    2187 Secondly, we should explain the phrase, you the only true God. It is clear that Christ was speaking to the Father, so when he says, you the only true God, it seems that only God the Father is true God. The Arians agree with this, for they say that the Son differs by essence from the Father, since the Son is a created substance, although he shares in the divinity more perfectly and to a greater degree than do all other creatures. So much more that the Son is called God, but not the true God, because he is not God by nature, which only the Father is.
    Hilary answers this by saying that when we want to know whether a certain thing is true, we can determine it from two things: its nature and its power.[3] For true gold is that which has the species of true gold; and we determine this if it acts like true gold. Therefore, if we maintain that the Son has the true nature of God, because the Son exercises the true activities of divinity, it is clear that the Son is true God. Now the Son does perform true works of divinity, for we read, “Whatever he [the Father] does, that the Son does likewise” (5:19); and again he said, “For as the Father has life in himself,” which is not a participated life, “so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself” (5:26); “That we may be in his true Son, Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life” [1 Jn 5:20].

    According to Hilary, he says, you the only true God, in a way that does not exclude another. He does not say without qualification, you the only, but adds and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.[4] It is like saying: that they know you and Jesus Christ whom you have sent to be the one and only true God. This is a pattern of speaking that we also use when we say [in the Gloria]: “You alone, Jesus Christ, are the most high, together with the Holy Spirit.” No mention is made of the Holy Spirit because whenever the Father and the Son are mentioned, and especially in matters pertaining to the grandeur of the divinity, the Holy Spirit, who is the bond of the Father and Son, is implied.

    2188 Or, according to Augustine in his work, The Trinity, he says this to exclude the error of those who claim that it is false to say that the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; while it is true to say that the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit are one God.[5] The reason for this opinion was that the Apostle said that “Christ [is] the power of God and the Wisdom of God” (1 Cor 1:24). Now it is clear that we cannot call anyone God unless he has divine power and wisdom. Therefore, since these people held that the Father was wisdom, which is the Son, they held further that the Father considered without the Son would not be God. And the same applies to the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    The incarnation of the Son of God is indicated by saying that he was sent. So when he says here, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent, we are led to understand that in eternal life we will also rejoice in the humanity of Christ: “Your eyes will see the king,” that is, Christ, “in his beauty” (Is 33:17); “He will go in and out and find pasture” (10:9).

    2189 Now we see why Christ’s prayer deserves to be heard: first, he mentions why he deserves this; secondly, he states the reward, Father, glorify me.

    2190 He states that he merited to be heard for two reasons. First, because of his teaching, when he says, I glorified you on earth, that is, in the minds of men, by manifesting you in my teaching: “Glorify the Lord in teaching” [Is 24:15]. Secondly, I glorified you by my obedience; thus he said, I … having accomplished the work. He uses the past tense in place of the future: I glorified for “I will glorify,” and accomplished in place of “I will accomplish.” He does this because these things had already begun, and also because the hour of his passion, when his work would be accomplished, was very near.

    “The work which you gave me to do,” not merely ordered. It is not enough [for a work to be accomplished] for Christ and us to be ordered by God, because whatever Christ as man accomplished and whatever we can do is God’s gift, God gave us this: “I knew that I could not be continent unless God gave it” [Wis 8:21]. You gave me, I say, by the gift of grace, to do, that is, to accomplish.

    2191 The reward for Christ’s obedience and teaching is glory: “He humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name” (Phil 2:8). And so Christ asks for his reward, saying, and now, Father, glorify me. According to Augustine this does not mean, as some have thought, that the human nature of Christ, which was assumed by the Word, would at some time be changed into the Word, and the human nature changed into God.[6] This would be to annihilate the [human] nature of Christ, for when a first thing is changed into another in such a way that this other is not enriched, the first thing seems to have been annihilated [because it produced no effect]. But nothing can be added to enrich the divine Word of God.

    Thus, for Augustine, and now, Father, glorify me, refers to the predestination of Christ as man. Something can be had by us both in the divine predestination and in actual fact. Now Christ, in his human nature, as all other human beings, was predestined by God the Father: “He was predestined Son of God” [Rom 1:4]. With this in mind he says, and now after I have glorified you, having accomplished the work which you gave me to do Father, glorify me in your own presence, that is, have me sit at your right hand, with the glory which I had with you before the world was made,that is to say, with the glory I had in your predestination: “The Lord Jesus … was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God” (Mk 16:19).[7]

    2192 Hilary gives the other interpretation.[8] The glory of human beings will be in a certain way similar to the glory of God, although unequal. Now Christ, as God, had glory with the Father from all eternity, a divine glory and equal to that of the Father. Accordingly, what he is asking for here is that he be glorified in his human nature, that is to say, that what was flesh in time and changed by corruption, should receive the glory of that brightness which is outside of time. He is asking not for an equal glory, but for one which is similar, which is to say that just as the Son is immortal and sitting at the right hand of the Father from all eternity, so he now become immortal in his human nature and exalted to the right hand of God.

  324. MANNY CRUZ says:

    PERHAPS THE EXPLANATION OF ST THOMAS AQUINAS ON JOHN 17:1-3 WAS WAY TOO MUCH FOR IVAN’S UNTRAINED AND SIMPLISTIC MIND TO GRASP.. SO I’M OFFERING HERE SOME SIMPLER POINTS FOR HIS REFLECTION.

    1. ACTS 3:15, “THE AUTHOR OF LIFE, YOU PUT TO DEATH, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, AND OF THIS WE ARE WITNESSES.

    MAN CAN NEVER BE AN AUTHOR OF LIFE, BUT GOD ALONE. “It is I who bring both death and life” (Deuteronomy 32:39). JESUS ALONE IS THE AUTHOR OF LIFE THAT WAS PUT TO DEATH, THEREFORE JESUS IS GOD.

    2. 1 COR 1:24, “CHRIST THE POWER OF GOD AND THE WISDOM OF GOD.”

    NO ONE CAN BE CALLED THE POWER AND THE WISDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE IS GOD HIMSELF. MAN HAS NO POWER TO SAVE. ” Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.”(Psalm 146:3). MAN IS NOT THE SOURCE OF WISDOM, BUT GOD ALONE. “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God” (James 1:5).THEREFORE, JESUS IS GOD.

    WHAT’S FUNNY HERE IS THAT IVAN AND HIS FALSE TEACHERS CLEARLY IMPLIED THAT BEFORE JESUS WAS BORN (OR CREATED), GOD HAS NO POWER AND NO WISDOM. BUT THAT IS PLAIN STUPIDITY.

    ANYWAY, THE INC IS FELIX MANALO’S POWER-BASE AND “WA-IS” BASE. (“WA-IS” DAHIL RELIHIYON GINAWANG NEGOSYO – COMPLETE WITH SEC REGISTRATION AND PATENT APPLICATION- KAYA AYUN, SOBRANG YAMAN PAMILYA NIYA HEHEHE. KAWAWANG IVAN!)

  325. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN CITED John 4:23-24,

    “23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    THEN, WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING, HE BLURTED OUT:

    ” GOD IS SPIRIT…You see man, you really CANNOT defend the LIE that the Catholic Church made about GOD. The TRINITY DOCTRINE is NOT TAUGHT by Christ. MORESO, THAT TEACHING IS NOT FROM GOD. You have been deceived by your FATHER OF LIES, the DEVIL (John 8:42-47), to LEAD you to PERDITION.”

    IVAN THOUGHT THAT SINCE GOD IS A SPIRIT, TRINITY IS FALSE. HAHAHA! WHAT A NAÏVE AND SIMPLISTIC INTERPRETATION!!!

    IVAN HAS COMPLETELY IGNORED THE FACT THE GOD AS SPIRIT, “WAS MADE FLESH” (JOHN 1:14), “AND MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH (1 TIM 3:16), AND “LIVES IN BODILY FORM” (Col 2:9).

    IN HIS LETTER, ST. JOHN EVEN MADE A STRONGER CASE FOR THIS AS HE STRESSED THAT “THOSE WHO DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS CHRIST AS COMING IN THE FLESH [cf John 1:14]; SUCH IS THE DECEITFUL ONE AND THE ANTICHRIST” (2 JOHN 7).

    JOHN EMPHASIZED “THE COMING IN THE FLESH” OF JESUS. WHY? ISN’T IT OBVIOUS THAT EVERY PERSON, INCLUDING JESUS HIMSELF, IS NATURALLY BORN WITH FLESH AND BLOOD? IS JOHN NOT USING HIS COMMON SENSE HERE? OF COURSE HE DID, BUT SADLY IVAN DID NOT.

    JOHN SAID THIS NOT FOR THOSE WHO DOUBTED THE FLESH AND BLOOD EXISTENCE OF THE MAN JESUS, BUT RATHER FOR THOSE WHO DID NOT BELIEVE THAT THE HIDDEN GOD (Isaiah 45:15) CAN BE MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH (1 Tim 3:16), WAS MADE FLESH (John 1:14), CAN ASSUME A HUMAN NATURE (Phil 2:7), LIVES IN BODILY FORM (Col 2:90), AND HAS IN FACT TAKEN THE NAME OF JESUS OF NAZARETH.

    MANALO’S LIES HAVE SO CURRUPTED IVAN’S MIND THAT IT’S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM TO COMPREHEND THIS GREAT MYSTERY OF FAITH! AND WORSE, BY CONTRADICTING THIS TRUTH, IVAN MAY HAVE EARNED FOR HIMSELF THE FANCY TITLE OF “ANTICHRIST”!!! BUT THAT’S ANOTHER STORY!

  326. MANNY CRUZ says:

    NOW, HERE’S THE OTHER STORY:

    IVAN SAID:

    . You have been deceived by your FATHER OF LIES, the DEVIL (John 8:42-47), to LEAD you to PERDITION.”

    ME:

    INC DEFENDERS USUALLY ATTACK THEIR OPPONENTS BY ALLUDING TO THEM AS SONS OF THE DEVIL AND SO THEY SPEW OUT JOHN 8:44 LIKE A TORPEDO. IT’S A NASTY HABIT THAT IVAN HAS LEARNED WELL FROM HIS FALSE TEACHERS.

    BUT FIRST, LET US EXAMINE CLOSELY WHO ARE THE REAL SONS OF THE DEVIL HERE.

    IN THE GOSPEL OF JOHN, THE JEWS CLAIMED GOD AS THEIR FATHER (John 8:41). TAKE NOTE THAT IVAN AND HIS FALSE TEACHERS ALSO CLAIMED THE SAME THING.

    ALSO, BOTH CAMPS BELIEVED THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD. FOR THEM, JESUS IS A MERE MAN (John 10:33). FURTHERMORE, BOTH CAMPS BELIEVED THAT SINCE GOD IS A SPIRIT, HE CANNOT BE MADE MAN, OR BE MANIFESTED AND COME IN THE FLESH (1 john 1:14; 2 John 7).

    IN ANY CASE, SINCE BOTH CAMPS BELIEVED THE SAME THING ABOUT GOD AND JESUS, THEY MUST ALSO MERIT THE SAME ACCUSATION FROM JESUS. STANDING ON THE SAME WITNESS STAND, NOW THEY MUST FACE THE SAME CHARGE!

    OK. WHAT’S THEIR SAME CHARGE?

    WELL, IN THE GOSPEL OF JOHN WE KNOW THAT JESUS BLUNTLY ACCUSED THE JEWS OF HAVING THE DEVIL AS THEIR REAL FATHER (John 8:44). HENCE, “THE JEWS”, OR THE RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES OF THAT TIME, WERE THE REAL SONS OF THE DEVIL!

    BUT HERE WE CAN ALSO EASILY SEE THAT LIKE “THE JEWS” WHO CLAIMED GOD AS THEIR FATHER YET DENIED THE DIVINITY OF JESUS, THE INCs WERE VERY MUCH IN THE FRONT LINE AMONG THOSE QUALIFIED TO HAVE THE DEVIL AS THEIR FATHER. FOR JOHN, THESE REAL SONS OF THE DEVIL ARE THE “DECEITFUL ONES” AND THE “ANTICHRISTS” (2 John7).

    BUT LET ME CLARIFY THIS POINT SOME MORE:

    Q: WHO ARE AGAINST (ANTI) THE FACT THAT CHRIST WAS THE WORD, WHO WAS GOD, AND WAS MADE FLESH IN THE PERSON OF JESUS (JOHN 1:1, 14)?

    ANS: “THE JEWS” AND THE INCs!

    Q: WHO ARE AGAINST (ANTI) THE FACT THAT CHRIST CLAIMED TO BE GOD (John 5:19; 10:33)?

    ANS: “THE JEWS” AND THE INCs!

    Q: WHO ARE AGAINST (ANTI) THE FACT THAT CHRIST BY NATURE IS GOD (Phil 2:6)?

    ANS: “THE JEWS” AND THE INCs!

    Q: WHO ARE AGAINST (ANTI) THE FACT THAT CHRIST, OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR (TITUS 2:13), IS THE HIDDEN GOD (Is 45:15) MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH (1 Tim 3:16)?

    ANS: “THE JEWS” AND THE INCs!

    THEY SHARED THE SAME BELIEF; THEY STOOD ON THE SAME WITNESS STAND; THEY FACED THE SAME CHARGE! AND NOW, THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT!!!!!

    IN THIS LIGHT WE CAN SEE THAT THE DEVIL LIED TO FELIX; FELIX LIED TO ERANO; ERANO LIED TO EDUARDO, AND IVAN LIED TO US.

    SO, IT’S VERY CLEAR. WE NO LONGER HAVE TO GUESS WHO THE REAL SONS OF THE DEVIL ARE. WE ALREADY KNOW WHO THE REAL ANTI-CHRISTS ARE.

    IVAN’S TORPEDO BOOMERANGED ON HIM!

    (N.B. “THE JEWS” MENTIONED HERE REFERRED ONLY TO THOSE RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES IN JESUS’ DAY AND IT SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS A BLANKET STATEMENT ON ALL JEWS LIVING IN THE PAST, PRESENT, OR FUTURE.)

  327. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    YOU SAID:

    HE MADE IT SOUND THAT THE TRINITY WAS THE ISSUE HERE. PERHAPS HIS STYLE OF DECEPTION? HEHEHE. NOT SO FAST MAN. CAN’T YOU SEE I’M STILL DEBUNKING YOUR DEFECTIVE REASONING AND EXPOSING YOUR GLARING IGNORANCE ON SO MANY ISSUES RELATING YOUR FALSE INTERPRETATION OF BIBLICAL VERSES?

    MY COMMENT:

    Of course man, the REAL ISSUE here is your FALSE TRINITY DOCTRINE. That FALSE CATHOLIC TEACHING IS THE VERY PROOF of the APOSTASY forewarned in the Bible. That TRINITY DOCTRINE also is where those ENDLESS CHAIN of ERRONEOUS CATHOLIC BELIEFS AND PRACTICES originated FYI…

    You accuse me of falsely interpreting the Bible??? HA HA HA HA HA…lol…lol…

    Go back to my PREVIOUS REPLIES to you.

    I believe I only presented the Bible verses showing the FATHER as the ONE TRUE GOD.

    You are the one who make those FALSE INTERPRETATIONS, including John 1:1, John 10:30, John 10:33, John 5:18 and Colossians 1:15.

    To briefly reply on your LENGTHY FALSE ACCUSATIONS and VAGUE ASSUMPTIONS…

    In John 1:1, you FALSELY ASSUME that Christ is God. The FACT is… it is NOT WRITTEN that “CHRIST” is God in that verse. What is written is that the WORD was in the beginning. What else? The WORD was with God. And, the WORD was God.

    Have you noticed??? You already EQUATE the WORD with the person CHRIST… as if Christ already existed “in the beginning.”

    The TRUTH is that the WORD OF GOD in the beginning was the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God about his SON JESUS CHRIST.

    He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
    (1 Peter 1:20)

    The WORD or LOGOS in Greek MEANS a REASON, THOUGHT, or CONCEPT. The LOGOS in verse John 1:1 simply means the REASON of GOD…or…the MASTER PLAN OF GOD about HIS SON Jesus Christ. Of course, for the SALVATION OF MANKIND.

    2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, (Titus 1:2)

    2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; (Romans 1:2-6)

    And, the word “God” in line “the WORD or LOGOS was God” only QUALIFIES the term WORD. You see man, as God is ALMIGHTY and POWERFUL…so ARE His WORDS…(Hebrews 4:12)

    Mofatt rendition of that verse states —

    “THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”

    AGAIN, if apostle John really recognized Christ as God in that verse, then WHY IS IT that YOUR FALSE BELIEF contradicts the TEACHING of Christ as well as the apostles ON the ONE TRUE GOD??? Think about that man!!! LOL…lol…

    John 17:1-3 CLEARLY teaches us that THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    ETERNAL LIFE MEANS…TO KNOW THE FATHER AS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD”…AND…TO KNOW JESUS CHRIST WHOM THE FATHER SENT.

    John 20:17 also testifies that TRUTH —

    Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to MY FATHER and YOUR FATHER, and to MY GOD and YOUR GOD.’” (emphasis mine)

    ————–

    YOU SAID:

    For your enlightenment Ivan, there are more verses in the Bible that point to Christ’s divinity than to his humanity. And there is absolutely no verse that says “JESUS IS MAN ONLY AND NOT GOD.” That verse exists only in the corrupted and deceived minds of the killers of Jesus and their modern reincarnation personified by Ivan, his false angel, and his false teachers in the INC.

    MY COMMENT:

    MERE ASSERTION!!! lol…lol…

    What did Christ Jesus preach about the ONE TRUE GOD???

    DID CHRIST SAY THAT HE WAS GOD???

    WHO DID CHRIST PREACH AS THE ONE TRUE GOD???

    WHO DID THE APOSTLES PREACH AND RECOGNIZE AS THE ONE TRUE GOD???

    Your DELUSIONS are NONSTOP. HA HA HA…

    Better address those questions above with Biblical proofs instead of your LENGTHY FALSE ACCUSATIONS AND VAGUE ASSUMPTIONS!!!…LOL…

  328. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    I understand your GREAT CONFUSION besides your DELUSIONS here, man. Believe me…been there as a former Catholic myself.

    Anyways, despite your LENGTHY FALSE INTERPRETATIONS and VAGUE ASSUMPTIONS of the Bible verses, you still CANNOT DENY the FACT that CHRIST NEVER PREACHED ABOUT THE TRINITY nor he said that he was God or one of the Trinity…That’s the TRUTH. The Trinity was just FORMULATED and ESTABLISHED by the First Council of Nicaea of the Catholic Church in year 325 A.D., with the intervention of Emperor Constantine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea)

    Man, that’s more than TWO DECADES had passed after the death of the last apostle, John, when the Catholic Church MADE the TRINITY. The proof that the TRINITY DOCTRINE was not taught by Christ and the apostles themselves is that it (the Trinity doctrine) is not found in the Bible. IT WAS JUST FORMULATED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

    Let me remind you, man, that to be OF GOD is to DO HIS WILL AND COMMANDS.

    He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” (John 8:47)

    WHAT IS THE WILL OF GOD FOR MANKIND?

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:16-17)

    THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE…

    To believe in God’s Son Jesus Christ is to have EVERLASTING LIFE.

    REMEMBER what Christ said when he established his CHURCH (Church of Christ)?

    And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. (Mt 16:18)

    That is the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST which will overcome DEATH…the SECOND DEATH…

    And what else did Christ say about ETERNAL LIFE?

    And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3)

    TO KNOW THE FATHER AS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD”…AND…TO KNOW JESUS CHRIST WHOM GOD THE FATHER HAS SENT…IS…ETERNAL LIFE.

    Now, how will anyone BE SAVED or HAVE ETERNAL LIFE when he does not FOLLOW the WILL and COMMANDS OF GOD?

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Mt 7:21-23)

    You see, man, no matter how great your intentions are to please God, if what the things you do are against Him, those are USELESS…THOSE WILL JUST LEAD YOU TO PERDITION.

    ———–

    MOREOVER, Manny, you accuse of me of falsely interpreting the Bible??? LOL…lol…

    With your LENGTHY PRESENTATION of your faith, you have just proven otherwise. LOL…lol…lol…

    You just presented your FALSE INTERPRETATIONS and VAGUE ASSUMPTIONS of the Catholic Church.

    In those verses, you mentioned, FYI, God NOR Christ never teaches that the TRINITY is the ONE TRUE GOD.

    THOSE ARE YOUR FALSE INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BIBLE…

    ———-

    YOU SAID:

    PERHAPS THE EXPLANATION OF ST THOMAS AQUINAS ON JOHN 17:1-3 WAS WAY TOO MUCH FOR IVAN’S UNTRAINED AND SIMPLISTIC MIND TO GRASP.. SO I’M OFFERING HERE SOME SIMPLER POINTS FOR HIS REFLECTION.

    MY COMMENT:

    You see, man? Your CATHOLIC FAITH is based on the PHILOSOPHY of man, St Thomas Aquinas. Lol…lol…

    John 17:1-3 is CRYSTAL CLEAR in REVEALING the FATHER AS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD.”

    17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    WHAT DO YOU DO to deceive people to believe in your false God TRINITY? You FALSELY INTERPRET those verses…See??? You even rely on the PHILOSOPHY OF MEN…which the apostles warn the TRUE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST from…

    Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. (Col 2:8)

    ———–

    YOU SAID:

    2. 1 COR 1:24, “CHRIST THE POWER OF GOD AND THE WISDOM OF GOD.”

    NO ONE CAN BE CALLED THE POWER AND THE WISDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE IS GOD HIMSELF. MAN HAS NO POWER TO SAVE. ” Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.”(Psalm 146:3). MAN IS NOT THE SOURCE OF WISDOM, BUT GOD ALONE. “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God” (James 1:5).THEREFORE, JESUS IS GOD.

    MY COMMENT:

    WOW!!! Man, do you realize what you are doing??? That’s what you call FALSE INTERPRETATIONS of the Bible…that is PURE DECEPTION…

    1 Cor 1:24 CLEARLY states that Christ is the power and wisdom of GOD…OF GOD…OF GOD…

    That verse NEVER SAYS that Christ is God…FYI…

    Now, what did you do? After reading that Christ is the power of God, you FALSELY ASSUME AND CONCLUDE that Christ is God…VOILA!!! That’s your TRINITY!

    HOWEVER, this is what we can read in 1 Cor 2:7 —

    But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

    STILL, that WISDOM OF GOD never implies CHRIST AS GOD. Instead, it only differentiates GOD’S WISDOM from that of men.

    And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Cor 2:4-5)

    AND, OF COURSE, Christ is the WISDOM AND POWER of God, because the MIGHTY WORKS OF GOD HAVE BEEN REVEALED through Christ, the SON OF GOD.

    Moreover, AGAIN, does Christ Jesus teach that he is God??? Do you have the TRUTH that is in Christ??? Who is the ONE TRUE GOD preached by Christ???

    “JESUS IS GOD” is just your FALSE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE…THAT IS NOT BIBLICAL…THAT IS NOT ACCORDING TO CHRIST.

    WHAT DID CHRIST PREACH ABOUT THE “ONE TRUE GOD” DURING ONE OF HIS MINISTERIAL WORKS?

    28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving[d] that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?”

    29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

    32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

    34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

    But after that no one dared question Him. (MARK 12:28-34)

    JESUS CHRIST PREACHES THAT THE “ONE GOD” IN THE FIRST COMMANDMENT OF GOD IS NO OTHER THAN THE FATHER ALONE.

    —————

    YOU SAID:

    IVAN HAS COMPLETELY IGNORED THE FACT THE GOD AS SPIRIT, “WAS MADE FLESH” (JOHN 1:14), “AND MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH (1 TIM 3:16), AND “LIVES IN BODILY FORM” (Col 2:9).

    IN HIS LETTER, ST. JOHN EVEN MADE A STRONGER CASE FOR THIS AS HE STRESSED THAT “THOSE WHO DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS CHRIST AS COMING IN THE FLESH [cf John 1:14]; SUCH IS THE DECEITFUL ONE AND THE ANTICHRIST” (2 JOHN 7).

    JOHN EMPHASIZED “THE COMING IN THE FLESH” OF JESUS. WHY? ISN’T IT OBVIOUS THAT EVERY PERSON, INCLUDING JESUS HIMSELF, IS NATURALLY BORN WITH FLESH AND BLOOD? IS JOHN NOT USING HIS COMMON SENSE HERE? OF COURSE HE DID, BUT SADLY IVAN DID NOT.

    JOHN SAID THIS NOT FOR THOSE WHO DOUBTED THE FLESH AND BLOOD EXISTENCE OF THE MAN JESUS, BUT RATHER FOR THOSE WHO DID NOT BELIEVE THAT THE HIDDEN GOD (Isaiah 45:15) CAN BE MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH (1 Tim 3:16), WAS MADE FLESH (John 1:14), CAN ASSUME A HUMAN NATURE (Phil 2:7), LIVES IN BODILY FORM (Col 2:90), AND HAS IN FACT TAKEN THE NAME OF JESUS OF NAZARETH.

    MY COMMENT:

    See, man??? YOUR FALSE INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BIBLE ARE OVERFLOWING AND NONSTOP. lol…lol…

    Christ manifested in the flesh CANNOT AND DOES NOT EVEN IMPLY that he is God.

    CHRIST IS ACTUALLY THE FULFILLMENT OF GOD’S PROMISE OF SALVATION.

    God has foreordained the COMING OF HIS SON JESUS…to SAVE MANKIND…

    20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Pet 1:20-21)

    Moreover, in Colossians 2:9, Christ having the FULLNESS OF GOD does not mean that he is already God. Again, did Christ preach that he was God?

    God lives fully in Christ. (Col 2:9, CEV)

    For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, (Col 1:19, NIV)

    FYI…FYI…That FULLNESS OF GOD is what also the TRUE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST should attain.

    to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph 3:19, NKJV)

    FURTHERMORE, Manny, as God FULFILLED His promise about His Son Jesus, He (God) also MADE Jesus BOTH LORD AND CHRIST.

    “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:36)

    FYI, the LORDSHIP of Christ…his AUTHORITY to rule as well… was given to him by GOD THE FATHER.

    And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (Mt 28:18)

    ————

    Isaiah 45:15 — Truly You are God, who hide Yourself,
    O God of Israel, the Savior!

    WHO IS THE GOD OF ISRAEL??? Definitely, it is not Jesus. That is not what the Bible teaches.

    Isaiah 45:15 speaks about the FATHER as the God of Israel. That nation of God knew WHO HE REALLY WAS.

    Therefore David blessed the LORD before all the assembly; and David said: “Blessed are You, LORD God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever. (1 Chronicles 29:10)

    Have we not all one Father?
    Has not one God created us?
    Why do we deal treacherously with one another
    By profaning the covenant of the fathers? (Malachi 2:10)

    FYI, the God of Israel was no other than the FATHER alone.

    ———

    The translation you are using on 1 Tim 3:16 is QUESTIONABLE…lol…lol…he he…

    CEV has this rendition:

    16 Here is the great mystery of our religion:

    Christ came as a human.
    The Spirit proved
    that he pleased God,
    and he was seen by angels.

    Christ was preached
    to the nations.
    People in this world
    put their faith in him,
    and he was taken up to glory.

    ————

    YOU SAID:

    BUT HERE WE CAN ALSO EASILY SEE THAT LIKE “THE JEWS” WHO CLAIMED GOD AS THEIR FATHER YET DENIED THE DIVINITY OF JESUS, …

    MY COMMENT:

    You accuse the INC of having claims as the Jews during the time of Christ, BUT, you INTENTIONALLY HID the FACT that the Catholic Church believes that what Christ was showing the Jews was that he (Christ) WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD…as what those JEWS were ALSO accusing Christ of…LOL…lol… HA HA HA…

    What a DECEPTION man!!! LOL…LOL…

    ALSO, the “DIVINITY OF JESUS?”

    AGAIN, DID CHRIST PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD? WHO IS THE “ONLY TRUE GOD” PREACHED BY CHRIST?

    ———-

    You also have MISUNDERSTOOD Titus 2:13 which states — looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

    DEFINITELY, the expression “our great God” and “Savior Jesus Christ” are two different entities.

    In Titus 1:4, this is what it says —

    To Titus, a true son in our common faith:

    Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.

    AGAIN, what is written is…GOD THE FATHER…and…THE LORD JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR.

    ———–

    WHO DO THE APOSTLES REALLY RECOGNIZE AS “ONE TRUE GOD?”

    To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:7)

    that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.(Rom 15:6)

    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:3)

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, (2 Cor 1:3)

    Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, (Galatians 1:3)

    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Eph 1:2)

    Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen. (Philippians 4:20)

    Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thes 1:1)

    remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, (1 Thes 1:3)

    Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. (1 Thess 3:11)

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

    The above verses CLEARLY show how the apostles RECOGNIZE and PREACH the FATHER as the ONLY TRUE GOD.

    That TEACHING of the apostles only shows their OBEDIENCE to the WILL OF GOD THE FATHER to believe in His SON JESUS CHRIST.

    Christ HIMSELF teaches that THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:1-3)

  329. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN CITED Mt 7:21,

    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    WE CAN ONLY GUESS WHAT IVAN IS IMPLYING HERE SINCE HE DOES NOT CLEARLY ARTICULATE HIS POINT. MAYBE HE JUST WANTED TO INJECT HIS OUTLANDISH OPINION THAT THOSE NON-INCs WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH HIM WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. HEHEHE! AFTER ALL, ACCORDING TO HIS MAN-MADE DOCTRINE, ONLY INCs WILL BE SAVED. TAMA BA IVAN?

    BUT PERHAPS IVAN HAS COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN THAT NOT ALL THOSE WHO CALLED THEMSELVES AS MEMBERS OF AN “IGLESYA NI CRISTO” OR “CHURCH OF CHRIST” BELONGED TO THE TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST. BECAUSE THE FACT IS: THOSE MANY GROUPS THAT BEAR THE NAME “CHURCH OF CHRIST” MUTUALLY EXCLUDED, ACCUSED, AND REJECTED EACH OTHER AS FAKES..

    ITS EITHER NONE OF THEM IS RIGHT OR ALL OF THEM ARE WRONG!!!!HAHAHAH!

    IF THE TRUE CHURCH BEARS THE MARKS OF BEING ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC, THE FAKE CHURCH ALSO BEARS SOME INTERESTING MARKS:

    1.) IT IS ONE THAT IS FOUNDED BY A MERE MAN, REGARDLESS OF HIS PRETENSIONS TO BE AN ANGEL.

    2.) IT IS NEW AND YOUNG. IT BEGAN IN 1914, ONLY 98 YEARS OLD, AND HENCE, HISTORICALLY DISCONNECTED FROM THE APOSTLES BY ALMOST TWO THOUSAND YEARS.

    3.) IT EMBRACES OLD HERESIES LIKE THAT OF ARIUS;

    4.) IT DID NOTHING AS TO HOW THE SCRIPTURES WERE PRESERVED, COMPILED, AND PROMOTED, AND HENCE IT IS PRONE TO RELY ON FAULTY TRANSLATIONS SUCH AS LAMSA AND MOFFAT;

    5.) IT ATTACKS THE TRUE CHURCH ON A DAILY BASIS USING THEIR TV AND RADIO NETWORKS;

    6.) IT PRODUCES NO SAINTS AND CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION, HISTORY, AND CULTURE, ETC. ETC. ETC.

    CAN YOU GUESS NOW, IVAN, WHICH ONE IS THE FAKE CHURCH? HEHEHE!

  330. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN SAID:

    “By the way, MANNY, WHO MADE JESUS “LORD” AND “CHRIST?”

    In Acts 2:36 we can read –

    36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    FYI, Manny, it was GOD THE FATHER who MADE Jesus LORD AND CHRIST!
    AGAIN, it was the WILL OF GOD THE FATHER that Christ BECAME LORD AND CHRIST.”

    MANNY SAID:

    AGAIN, IVAN DID NOT ARTICULATE CLEARLY AS TO HOW HE UNDERSTOOD THE VERSE HE CITED, SO WE CAN ONLY SURMISE WHAT HE REALLY WANTED TO SAY HERE. THAT IS, GOD MERELY “CREATED” JESUS TO BE LORD AND CHRIST.

    THE OBVIOUS IMPLICATION IS THAT THERE WAS A TIME WHEN JESUS WAS NOT LORD/CHRIST, AND THEN GOD DECIDED LATER TO MAKE OR CREATE OR ELEVATE OR ESTABLISH (WHATEVER) JESUS TO BE LORD/CHRIST. BUT DID PETER MEAN IT THIS WAY? OF COURSE NOT!!! IVAN’S FAKE ANGEL AND HIS FALSE TEACHERS GOT IT ALL WRONG AGAIN. HERE’S WHY:

    1.) TO SAY THE JESUS WAS “MADE LORD” IS A BIBLICAL MANNER OF SPEAKING AND IT HAS TO BE UNDERSTOOD IN THE CONTEXT OF PETER’S SPEECH ON PENTECOST (Acts 2: 14-36) AS WELL AS IN HIS LETTERS (1 Pt 1:18-20).

    2.) THE PHRASE “MADE LORD” CANNOT MEAN “LITERALLY CREATED AS LORD” FOR TWO REASONS.

    FIRST, ONE CANNOT CREATE SOMETHING THAT IS ALREADY THERE. TAKE NOTE THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF PETER’S PENTECOST SPEECH (Acts 2: 14-36), JESUS WAS ALREADY LORD AND MESSIAH IN VERSE 21, AND EVEN MORE SO IN HIS CITATION OF PSALM 110:1 WHICH SAYS,

    “The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” (Acts 2:34; cf. Ps 110:1)

    DEFINITELY, THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE “CREATION” OR “BEGINNING” OF THE LORDSHIP OF CHRIST. RATHER, THIS IS ABOUT HIS ENTHRONEMENT AS “BOTH LORD AND MESSIAH”. THUS, IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WAS “MADE BOTH LORD AND MESSIAH” IN THE SENSE THAT HE WAS “ENTHRONED” AS SUCH. THIS IS THE BIBLICAL WAY OF SAYING THAT JESUS NOW EXERCISES HIS FULL POWERS AS A SOVEREIGN KING OVER ALL. BUT LETS NOT FORGET THAT HE WAS ALREADY LORD EVEN BEFORE HIS ENTHRONEMENT.

    HENCE, BOTH JOEL 3:5 AND PSALM 110:1 RULED OUT THE NOTION THAT JESUS IS ONLY A CREATED LORD AND MESSIAH, PRIMARILY BECAUSE HE WAS ALREADY LORD AND MESSIAH TO BEGIN WITH. IN FACT, JESUS IS LORD (Rom 10:9) YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER (Heb 13:8) SO THAT THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO TIME WHEN JESUS WAS NOT LORD AT ALL.

    SECOND, THE PHRASE “MADE LORD” CANNOT MEAN THAT JESUS WAS LITERALLY “CREATED AS LORD” BECAUSE IT WOULD MESS UP OTHER BIBLICAL MANNER OF SPEAKING ABOUT JESUS BEING “MADE SIN” (2 Cor 5:21) OR ABOUT JESUS BEING “MADE A CURSE” (Galatians 3:13 ).

    IT IS TOO OUTLANDISH TO THINK OF JESUS AS “LITERALLY CREATED AND TRANSFORMED FROM A CONCRETE PHYSICAL HUMAN BEING TO AN ABSTRACT METAPHYSICAL SIN AND CURSE. IT’S TOTALLY NON-SENSE.

    SO THIS LEADS US TO THE DEEPER MEANING OF PETER’S ASSERTION. THE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING “MADE SIN” OR “MADE A CURSE” SPEAKS ABOUT HIS KENOSIS – HIS SELF-EMPTYING WHEN HE ASSUMED THE “FORM OF A SERVANT” (Phil 2:7) IN BECOMING A TOTAL HUMAN BEING LIKE US EXCEPT FOR SIN ( Heb 4:15).

    LIKEWISE, THE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING “MADE LORD“ SPEAKS ABOUT HIS GLORIFICATION AS HIS REWARD AFTER THE “FORM OF A SERVANT” HAD ACCOMPLISHED HIS SALVIFIC TASK ON EARTH; AND FOLLOWING THE RESURRECTION, IT SPEAKS ABOUT THE RESUMPTION OR THE “TAKING BACK”” OF ALL OF WHAT HE HAD EMPTIED BY HIS KENOSIS, THAT IS, THE GLORIOUS MANIFESTATION OF HIS ROYAL MAJESTY WHICH HE HAD WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD (John 17:5, 24), WHICH IS NOW MADE MORE MANIFEST BY THE SYMBOLISM OF HIS ENTHRONEMENT IN PSALM 110:1.

    IN OTHER WORDS, PETER, UPON THE INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, WANTED MAINLY TO ESTABLISH THE TRUE IDENTITY OF THIS MAN JESUS, THAT HE IS BOTH “LORD AND MESSIAH” – BUT NOT IN THE SENSE THAT HE WAS CREATED, BUT RATHER IN THE SENSE THAT HE WAS REVEALED OR MANIFESTED AS SUCH. PETER HIMSELF MADE THIS CLEAR IN HIS FIRST LETTER. HE SAID, “He was destined before the foundation of the word, but was MADE MANIFEST at the end of the times for your sake.” (1 Peter 1:20).

    SO THAT’S IT, IVAN. JESUS WAS NOT CREATED, AS YOU MISTAKENLY THOUGHT, BUT ONLY MANIFESTED OR REVEALED AS “BOTH LORD AND MESSIAH.”

  331. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN SAID:

    “There is NO TEACHING in the Bible about your DELUSION that Christ is GOD. in the first place, he NEVER PREACHED about him being GOD during his MINISTRY with his apostles, FYI, FYI…”

    MANNY SAID:

    HAHAHA! SAYS WHO? OH YES, SAYS MANALO. THE LIES OF YOUR FAKE ANGEL HAVE BLINDED YOUR MIND SO TERRIBLY THAT YOU CANT SEE THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST IN THE BIBLE! I HAVE ALREADY GIVEN YOU PLENTY OF VERSES TO PROVE THIS POINT. IN CONTRAST, YOU HAVE GIVEN ME NOTHING IN TERMS OF COUNTER-ARGUMENTS. YOU MERELY REPEATED YOUR OLD NONSENSICAL QUESTIONS AS IF NOTHING HAD BEEN DISCUSSED WHATSOEVER. I’M SO SORRY FOR YOU, IVAN.

  332. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “SO, where did the Catholic Church get that TEACHING ON THE TRINITY? Man, it was INVENTED by your church. You formulated your GOD as THE FULFILLMENT OF THE “APOSTASY” forewarned by the apostles.”

    MANNY:

    Ok, DESPITE the SOLID BIBLICAL PROOFS and the earliest Christian witnesses that attested to the fact that Jesus is God, Ivan still could not get it. Anyway, let me just give this privilege to Ivan by citing some of the many MANY SOURCES where the TRUE CHURCH has discerned the truth about the TRINITY.

    1. GENESIS:

    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
    3 And God said, “Let there be light

    GOD, THE SPIRIT, AND HIS WORD? THAT’S THE TRINITY IVAN!

    2. PROVERBS:

    • Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son’s name? Surely you know! (Proverbs 30:4)

    GOD HAS A SON WHOSE ACTS ARE IN TOTAL UNION WITH HIM!

    3. Psalm 45:6-8

    6 Your throne, O God,[a] will last forever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    GOD ADDRESSED HIS SON AS GOD.

    4. ISAIAH:

    A. ) Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And the SPIRIT of the LORD will rest on HIM, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isaiah 11:1-2)

    THE SPIRIT, THE LORD, AND THE SON

    B.) “Behold, MY SERVANT, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put MY SPIRIT upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1)

    GOD, HIS SPIRIT, AND HIS SON (SERVANT)

    C.) “Come near to ME, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His SPIRIT.” (Isaiah 48:16)

    LORD GOD, the SON (ME), AND HIS SPIRIT.

    D.) The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; (Isaiah 61:1)

    THE SPIRIT, THE LORD, AND THE SON

    E.) 7 I will tell of the kindnesses of the LORD . . .
    8 He said, “Surely they are my people,
    children who will be true to me”;
    and so he became their Savior. . .

    10 Yet they rebelled
    and grieved his Holy Spirit. (ISAIAH 63: 8-10)

    THE LORD, THE SAVIOR, THE HOLY SPIRIT

    5. MATTHEW:

    “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”(Mat 28:19);

    THE FATHER, THE SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT.

    As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him (Mat 3:16)

    GOD, THE SPIRIT, AND JESUS

    6. MARK:

    10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

    THE SON, THE SPIRIT, AND THE FATHER

    7. ACTS:

    He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

    THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT

    8. HEBREWS:

    “But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.”( Hebrews 1:8)

    9. CORINTHIANS:
    :

    There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. (1 Cor 12:4-6)

    Same SPIRIT, SAME LORD, SAME GOD.

    10. ROMANS:

    4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power[a] by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

    SPIRIT, SON, LORD

    11. CORINTHIANS:

    14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13:14).

    JESUS, GOD, HOLY SPIRIT

    12. EPHESIANS:

    There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Eph 4:4)

    ONE SPIRIT, ONE LORD, ONE FATHER

    13. PETER:

    who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: (1 Pet 1:2)

    FATHER, SPIRIT, JESUS

    14. JUDE

    20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.(Jude 20-21)

    HOLY SPIRIT, GOD, LORD JESUS

    IVAN, NOT THE LIES OF YOUR FALSE ANGEL BUT ONLY THE GUIDANCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT WILL ENABLE YOU TO DISCERN THE TRUTH OF THE TRINITY.

  333. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN CITED Acts 20:29,

    “For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, NOT SPARING THE FLOCK. (emphasis mine)

    MANNY:

    HAHAHA! WHO ARE THE SAVAGE WOLVES THAT WILL COME IN AMONG THE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST?

    JOHN CALLED THESE DESPICABLE PEOPLE THE ANTICHRISTS. “Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 THEY WENT OUT FROM US, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;” (1 John 2: 18-19)

    SEE? THESE SAVAGE WOLVES REFER MORE APPROPRIATELY TO THE FORMER CATHOLIC PRIEST ARIUS AND FELIX MANALO WHO BOTH WENT OUT FROM THE CHURCH AND HAVE NEVER REMAINED WITH US. AND YES, MANALO’S MINIONS HAVE NOT SPARED THE CATHOLIC IVAN WHOM THEY DECEIVED AND EVENTUALLY CONVERTED TO THE MAN-MADE FAKE CHURCH CALLED INC. KAWAWANG IVAN!

  334. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    YOU SAID:

    CAN YOU GUESS NOW, IVAN, WHICH ONE IS THE FAKE CHURCH? HEHEHE

    MY ANSWER:

    I don’t need to guess which one is the fake church, man…LOL…lol…

    SURELY, ABSOLUTELY AND DEFINITELY the Roman Catholic Church is the FAKE CHURCH.

    INDEED, the Roman Catholic Church bears the FALSE TEACHING about God, since your TRINITY DOCTRINE (3 persons in one God) is not the doctrine of God. Rather, it was the result of being UNFAITHFUL to Christ and to God.

    Christ, the apostles and the early nation of God recognized and preached THE SAME ONE TRUE GOD which is the FATHER alone. I have been showing you numerous Biblical verses until now that point to the Father as the ONE TRUE GOD. BUT, you keep on IGNORING them. Well, as expected, you, as well as the other Trinitarians out there, CANNOT REFUTE THE TRUTH.

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD???

    You can’t even answer that question with Biblical proofs. he he he… What you just keep on doing is showing me those arguments and baseless (NOT IN THE BIBLE) assertions which actually are not new to me. Those were also my defense then when I was also STUBBORNLY defending that FALSE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE.

    You see, man, if Christ is really God, he should have preached that to the apostles and his followers during his time. BUT, no, he would not do that, because what he had with him is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God which teaches that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE GOD.

    BEING the CHRIST, the MESSIAH, the SON OF GOD, he had to preach the TRUTH…NO MORE, NO LESS… And, what he preached to his disciples then was that the FATHER…IS…THE…ONLY TRUE GOD. He never said nor even preached that he (Christ) was God. MOREOVER, he never preached about your so called 3 PERSONS IN ONE GOD, the TRINITY. Where did that doctrine come from? If it’s not from God, DEFINITELY, it came from your FATHER OF LIES, the devil.

    The apostles, too, upheld that teaching that the FATHER was the ONE TRUE GOD even until the death of the last one. The proof of that? The Bible does not bear any record of your Trinity doctrine being preached by the apostles FYI. The apostles only recognized and preached the FATHER as their GOD, the GOD OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

    To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:7)

    that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.(Rom 15:6)

    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:3)

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, (2 Cor 1:3)

    Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, (Galatians 1:3)

    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Eph 1:2)

    Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen. (Philippians 4:20)

    Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thes 1:1)

    remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, (1 Thes 1:3)

    Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. (1 Thess 3:11)

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

    ———-

    YOU SAID:

    LIKEWISE, THE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING “MADE LORD“ SPEAKS ABOUT HIS GLORIFICATION AS HIS REWARD AFTER THE “FORM OF A SERVANT” HAD ACCOMPLISHED HIS SALVIFIC TASK ON EARTH; AND FOLLOWING THE RESURRECTION, IT SPEAKS ABOUT THE RESUMPTION OR THE “TAKING BACK”” OF ALL OF WHAT HE HAD EMPTIED BY HIS KENOSIS, THAT IS, THE GLORIOUS MANIFESTATION OF HIS ROYAL MAJESTY WHICH HE HAD WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD (John 17:5, 24), WHICH IS NOW MADE MORE MANIFEST BY THE SYMBOLISM OF HIS ENTHRONEMENT IN PSALM 110:1.

    MY COMMENT:

    Your use of KENOSIS to show Jesus has preexistence, that is, he was God, DEFINITELY, is not what the Bible teaches. It is a LIE that the Catholic Church has made. Of course, as the FULFILLMENT of the APOSTASY of the church prophesied in the Bible. You can never change that.

    However, the TRUTH is… Christ Jesus remained OBEDIENT to GOD THE FATHER even until his DEATH ON THE CROSS. That is what the Bible teaches…NOT YOUR DELUDED TEACHING about the GODHOOD OF JESUS. Where is that in the Bible??? LOL…

    What you possess are those FALSE INTERPRETATIONS AND VAGUE ASSUMPTIONS that the Catholic Church upholds.

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD?

    Christ teaches that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE GOD. (John 17:3, John 20:17, Mark 12:28-34). WHY DEVIATE FROM THE TRUTH??? Why make Jesus God when he teaches that he is the SON OF GOD…NOT GOD THE SON???

    HERE is the reason, MANNY…

    44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” (John 8:44-47)

    ———-

    AGAIN, Christ or the SON OF GOD was foreordained BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Who did the FOREORDINATION of his coming to the world? If Christ already existed before the foundation of the world…and, that the TRINITY (3 persons in one God) is true…then, he (Christ) FOREORDAINED himself? Huh!!! lol…lol… Is that even logical, man??? lol…lol…

    Let’s make it simple here…

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD OR ONE OF THE TRINITY?

    DID HE REVEAL HIMSELF AS GOD AFTER HIS RESURRECTION?

    WHEN CHRIST RETURNS, WILL HE SHOW HIMSELF AS GOD?

    The TRUTH is Christ Jesus will always be the SON OF GOD until the end of days.

    27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:27-28, NKJV)

    27 When the Scriptures say that he will put everything under his power, they don’t include God. It was God who put everything under the power of Christ. 28 After everything is under the power of God’s Son, he will put himself under the power of God, who put everything under his Son’s power. Then God will mean everything to everyone. (1 Cor 15:27-28, CEV)

    ——–

    YOU SAID:

    IN OTHER WORDS, PETER, UPON THE INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, WANTED MAINLY TO ESTABLISH THE TRUE IDENTITY OF THIS MAN JESUS, THAT HE IS BOTH “LORD AND MESSIAH” – BUT NOT IN THE SENSE THAT HE WAS CREATED, BUT RATHER IN THE SENSE THAT HE WAS REVEALED OR MANIFESTED AS SUCH. PETER HIMSELF MADE THIS CLEAR IN HIS FIRST LETTER. HE SAID, “He was destined before the foundation of the word, but was MADE MANIFEST at the end of the times for your sake.” (1 Peter 1:20).

    MY COMMENT:

    No matter how you TWIST the TRUTH, man…you still CANNOT DENY THE FACT that it was ONLY the WILL OF GOD THE FATHER that JESUS WAS SENT TO THE WORLD…THAT JESUS BECAME LORD AND CHRIST…THAT JESUS WAS GIVEN AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH…

    HOWEVER, WHAT CHRIST ALSO DID WAS “ONLY” THE WILL OF GOD THE FATHER.

    He even had the CHOICE of doing OTHERWISE. That was why the devil even tried to deceive him in the desert.(Mt 4:1-11). That was also why CHRIST prayed so hard that he be able to DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER, even HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS.

    41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Luke 22:41-44)

    ——–

    FYI…FYI…FYI… Manny, I’m STILL wondering when will you have that COURAGE to address the QUESTION that Dro Tecson also could not answer and is not capable of answering. LOL…LOL…LOL… He left that question UNANSWERED as well… Man, are you as COWARD as he is???

    DID CHRIST SAY OR PREACH THAT HE WAS GOD? PROVE IT.

    Be reminded also that you have not yet given your comments UNTIL NOW (imagine that…LOL…) to the Biblical proofs I’ve presented showing the FATHER as the ONE TRUE GOD being taught by the PEOPLE OF GOD.

  335. ivan says:

    Manny Cruz:

    Since your LIES and DECEPTIVE RATIONALE of explaining things here are so IMMENSE, and due to time constraints, I can only give my partial comments on them. However, may this enlighten you and make you realize how FALSE your TRINITY DOCTRINE IS.

    ————

    YOU SAID:

    BUT THE APOSTLES ALSO TAUGHT THAT JESUS IS GOD:

    1. HE IS THE WORD OF GOD.

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…(John 1:1, 14).

    “And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God” (Rev 19:13).

    MY COMMENT:

    THAT IS SO DELUDED, man!!! The apostles taught Jesus as God??? Come on!!!

    How can you say that the apostles teach that JESUS IS GOD in John 1:1, when that verse DOES NOT EVEN SAY that JESUS IS GOD??? lol…lol…

    INSTEAD, WHAT APOSTLE JOHN TEACHES IS THAT THE “WORD OF GOD”, THE “WORD OF LIFE”, THE “PROMISED ETERNAL LIFE” WAS MANIFESTED THROUGH CHRIST JESUS, THE SON OF GOD.

    HERE IT IS:

    What is written in John 1:1 —

    in the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God.

    FYI, what is written in that verse is WORD…NOT “CHRIST”…NOT EVEN “THE SON”…

    Why do you have to replace the WORD in that verse with the person Christ?

    In doing so, you are already TWISTING the TRUTH that John 1:1 is really conveying.

    You should understand how to COMPARE verses from the other verses or testimonies from other testimonies in the Bible.

    As you also know the WORD in that verse came from the Greek word “LOGOS.” And what does LOGOS mean? It means thought, reason, or principle. These words are ABSTRACT. They ONLY EXIST in the MIND.

    In the case of John 1:1, the WORD OR LOGOS WAS WITH GOD. That statement just implies that the Lord Jesus Christ was already in the MIND OF GOD…in the beginning (before the foundation of the world). Therefore, concluding that the third line, the WORD AS GOD, is also the same as JESUS WAS GOD, is FALSE. The term “God” in the third line (in some Bible translations) is ACTUALLY used as an ADJECTIVE to describe the term “WORD.” As God is ALMIGHTY AND POWERFUL, so are His WORDS.

    For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

    John 1:1, as I have been repeating over and over again, refers to the FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD about His Son Jesus Christ.

    He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:20)

    Christ Jesus was the PROMISED SALVATION of mankind.

    2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, (Titus 1:2)

    Your INTERPRETATION on the line “And the word was made flesh” in John 1:14, of course, is DEFINITELY FALSE. What is written is that the WORD became flesh, NOT God became flesh. See how ERRONEOUS that Catholic teaching is? That’s the result of defending a FALSE DOCTRINE. Your church has to make those LIES and FALSE INTERPRETATIONS of the words of God in the Bible.

    Again, what has been manifested is the PROMISED ETERNAL LIFE that was with God the Father IN THE BEGINNING.

    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. (1John 1:1-4)

    AND,

    24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life. (1 John 2:24-25)

    You see, man, the WORD OF GOD in the beginning in John 1:1 refers to His (God the Father) promised ETERNAL LIFE through His Son Jesus Christ.

    FYI, NEVER did apostle John teach that Christ is God. You are really used to putting words in other people’s mouths, that’s why…LOL…LOL…

    ———–

    YOU WROTE:

    6. HE IS WORSHIPED AS GOD.

    “After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews?We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”(Mat 2:2)”

    11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and WORSHIPED him.”(Mat 2:11)

    33 And those who were in the boat WORSHIPED Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”( Mat 14:33)

    “37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he WORSHIPED him” (John 9:37-38)

    “And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” (Heb 1:6)

    MY COMMENT:

    WOW!!! How DELUDED that statement is. LOL…

    You asserted “HE IS WORSHIPED AS GOD.” WORSHIPED AS “GOD?”

    Come on, man! You just CONCLUDED that. That is just FALSE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE. That is NOT what is written.

    Mt 14:33 even CLEARLY states that Christ is TRULY the “SON OF GOD.” It does not say there that Christ is GOD. Come on, man…LOL…

    Heb 1:6 also does not say that Christ is worshiped as God by the angels. In FACT, what is written is that the ANGELS OF GOD are commanded by GOD to worship Christ…BUT not as GOD…for there is ONLY ONE GOD, THE FATHER.

    THEN, why is it that the LORD JESUS CHRIST should be WORSHIPED?

    In Philippians 2:10-11 this is written —

    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    FYI, it is the COMMANDMENT OF GOD THE FATHER to WORSHIP Christ Jesus…TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

    Never did God the Father commanded that Christ should be worshiped because he (Christ) is God. That is just your DELUSION.

    Moreover, GOD THE FATHER has given Christ all the principality, power, and authority as well.

    19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. (Eph 1:19-21)

    AND

    22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.(Eph 1:22-23)

    AND

    And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (Mt 28:18)

    HOWEVER, those attributes and power which GOD THE FATHER has given His Son Jesus Christ DO NOT MEAN he (Christ) is God. INSTEAD, he is still the SON OF GOD, even until the END.

    THIS IS WHAT IS WRITTEN in 1 Cor 15:27-28 —

    27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

    ————–

    YOU WROTE:

    IVAN THOUGHT THAT SINCE GOD IS A SPIRIT, TRINITY IS FALSE. HAHAHA! WHAT A NAÏVE AND SIMPLISTIC INTERPRETATION!!!

    IVAN HAS COMPLETELY IGNORED THE FACT THE GOD AS SPIRIT, “WAS MADE FLESH” (JOHN 1:14), “AND MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH (1 TIM 3:16), AND “LIVES IN BODILY FORM” (Col 2:9).

    IN HIS LETTER, ST. JOHN EVEN MADE A STRONGER CASE FOR THIS AS HE STRESSED THAT “THOSE WHO DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS CHRIST AS COMING IN THE FLESH [cf John 1:14]; SUCH IS THE DECEITFUL ONE AND THE ANTICHRIST” (2 JOHN 7).

    JOHN EMPHASIZED “THE COMING IN THE FLESH” OF JESUS. WHY? ISN’T IT OBVIOUS THAT EVERY PERSON, INCLUDING JESUS HIMSELF, IS NATURALLY BORN WITH FLESH AND BLOOD? IS JOHN NOT USING HIS COMMON SENSE HERE? OF COURSE HE DID, BUT SADLY IVAN DID NOT.

    JOHN SAID THIS NOT FOR THOSE WHO DOUBTED THE FLESH AND BLOOD EXISTENCE OF THE MAN JESUS, BUT RATHER FOR THOSE WHO DID NOT BELIEVE THAT THE HIDDEN GOD (Isaiah 45:15) CAN BE MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH (1 Tim 3:16), WAS MADE FLESH (John 1:14), CAN ASSUME A HUMAN NATURE (Phil 2:7), LIVES IN BODILY FORM (Col 2:90), AND HAS IN FACT TAKEN THE NAME OF JESUS OF NAZARETH.

    MY COMMENT:

    See how you make those LIES just to defend that FALSE TRINITY DOCTRINE??? lol…lol…

    John 1:14 DOES NOT SAY THAT “GOD AS SPIRIT” WAS MADE FLESH.

    AGAIN, Manny, it was the “WORD OF GOD” that was made flesh. The FULFILLMENT OF GOD’S PROMISE OF SALVATION.

    Col. 2:9, as well, does not say Christ is God. What is written is that the FULLNESS OF GOD is in Christ.

    CEV has this rendition of that verse — God lives fully in Christ.

    That is why, GOD the Father is PLEASED with him (Christ).

    For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, (Col 1:19)

    Colossians 1:19 should ENLIGHTEN you what the verse, Col 2:9, is referring to.

  336. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN CITED Acts 20:29,

    “For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, NOT SPARING THE FLOCK. (emphasis mine)

    MANNY:

    HAHAHA! WHO ARE THE SAVAGE WOLVES, IVAN?

    ST. JOHN CALLED THESE DESPICABLE PEOPLE THE ANTICHRISTS.

    “Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 THEY WENT OUT FROM US, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have REMAINED with us;” (1 John 2: 18-19)

    SEE? THE SAVAGE WOLVES WERE THE ONES WHO “WENT OUT FROM US”!!! SURELY THEY INCLUDE THE FORMER CATHOLIC PRIEST ARIUS AND FELIX MANALO WHO BOTH “WENT OUT” FROM THE CHURCH, AND NEVER REMAINED. AND YES, THE SAVAGE INC WOLVES ATTACKED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON A DAILY BASIS USING THEIR TV AND RADIO NETWORKS. AND YES, THEY HAVE NOT SPARED THE CATHOLIC IVAN WHOM THEY DECEIVED AND EVENTUALLY CONVERTED TO THE MAN-MADE 98-YEAR-OLD FAKE CHURCH IRONICALLY CALLED “IGLESYA NI CRISTO.” KAWAWANG IVAN!

  337. MANNY CRUZ says:

    AND YES, THE INC FULFILLED THE SCRIPTURES,

    “1 Timothy 4:1-3 –

    “4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, “giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, “having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and “commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with “thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.”

    THEIR FOUNDER DEPARTED FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH THE “PASUGO” ITSELF AFFIRMED TO BE THE TRUE CHURCH FROM THE BEGINNING (Pasugo, Abril 1966, p. 46:“Ang Iglesia Katolika na sa pasimula ay siyang Iglesia ni Cristo.” )

    THEY GIVE HEED TO THE LIES OF AN “ANGEL FROM THE FAR EAST” IN TOTAL DEFIANCE OF ST PAUL’S COMMAND NOT TO (GAL 1:8: “But even if we or an ANGEL from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!)

    THEY FORBID MEMBERS TO MARRY NON-INCS, AND THOSE WHO DO SO ARE OBLIGED TO CONVERT THEIR PARTNERS, CONTRARY TO WHAT THE ST. PAUL TAUGHT ( 1 COR 7:12-14: if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not [d]divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not [e]send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through [f]her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.)

    CONTRARY TO THE BIBLE, THEY FORBID MEMBERS TO EAT “DINUGUAN”, A FAVORITE FILIPINO DELICACY SOLD IN THE MARKETS EVERYWHERE. (1 Cor 10:25: “Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,). THEY STILL MISTAKENLY THOUGHT THAT FOOD ARE UNCLEAN, BUT, MARK 7:19 : “For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”). INDEED, GOD HAS SPOKEN, Acts 10:15 : “The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” CONCERNING FOOD, THE INC HAS CHOSEN TO BE DULL, Mark 7:18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’?”

    CONGRATULATIONS IVAN, YOU FULFILLED THE SCRIPTURES (1 Tim 4: 1-3) HEHEHE!

  338. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN SAID:

    “Manny, is FORBIDDING TO MARRY a VOW that every man who is entering priesthood in your church should take? That is CELIBACY, right? How about abstaining from eating foods? Oh, manny, that by the way is also found in your church…DURING your “Holy Week”…Those are DOCTRINES OF DEMONS…”

    MANNY SAID:

    WHAT KIND OF DEMON HAS TOLD YOU THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FORBIDS MARRIAGE??? MARRIAGES TAKE PLACE IN OUR CHURCHES EVERYDAY. IT IS ONE OF HER SEVEN SACRAMENTS. DI MO BA ALAM YAN? HAHAHA!

    CELIBACY IS NOT FORBIDDEN EITHER. CHRIST WAS CELIBATE. PAUL WAS CELIBATE. AND SO WERE JAMES, JOHN, LUKE, MARK, ETC. EVEN PETER, WHO WAS MARRIED, CHOSE A CELIBATE LIFE AFTER HIS CALLING FROM JESUS. MATT. 19:27: “Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” CELIBACY IS A NOBLE WAY OF LIFE. MAT.19:12: “some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.”

    TO MAKE A VOW IS PLEASING TO THE LORD. Ecc 5:4: “When you make a vow to God, do not delay in fulfilling it. He has no pleasure in fools; fulfill your vow.” Numbers 30:2, “When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.” Psalm 22:25, ” From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.”

    OUR PRIESTS MAKE A VOW OF CELIBACY IN IMITATION OF CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES. THEY ARE THE FULFILLMENT OF MAT 19:12, FOR THEY “CHOOSE NOT TO MARRY FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.” IF THEY WANT TO MARRY, THEY ARE FREE TO DO SO. HINDI BAWAL! DI MO RIN ALAM YAN ANO? HAHAHAHA!

    ON THE OTHER HAND, YOUR FALSE TEACHERS WHO DELIGHT IN BEING CALLED “MINISTERS” OF CHRISTS ARE LIKE FOOLS WHO CANNOT MAKE A VOW OF CELIBACY IN IMITATION OF CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES, AND WHOM THE LORD DOES NOT TAKE PLEASURE (Ecc 5:4). SORRY NA LANG SILA! HEHEHEH!

  339. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “2 Thes 2:3 this is what it says –
    “3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling “away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,”
    ———-
    You see man, that TURNING AWAY FROM CHRIST, or the APOSTASY, has already been FOREWARNED in the Bible. NOW, how can you tell that IT HAS BEEN FULFILLED? “

    MANNY CRUZ:

    YES, THE APOSTASY HAS BEEN FULFILLED WITH ARIUS, THE MAN OF SIN; AND WITH HIS MODERN REINCARNATION IN FELIX MANALO, THE MAN OF PERDITION. HAHAHAHA!

    WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 4TH CENTURY WAS A GREAT ARIAN APOSTASY. IN THE 19TH CENTURY IT WAS A GREAT ARIAN-MANALONIAN APOSTASY. HAHAHAHA!

    NOW, WHERE DID GET YOUR CREEPY NOTION OF TOTAL APOSTASY? FOCUS ON THE WORD “TOTAL”. THE VERSE YOU CITED DOES NOT SAY SO. READ IT PROPERLY AND WAKE UP IVAN!!!

  340. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “Look at your Catholic Church…Study your history. Did your church remained loyal to the TEACHINGS of Christ and the apostles??? Christ and the apostles teach that the ONE TRUE GOD IS THE FATHER “ALONE.” Who or WHAT does the RCC teach as “ONE GOD?” Of course, the TRINITY (3 PERSONS IN “ONE GOD”). Is that preached by Christ or by God??? Of course, NOT…”

    MANNY SAID:

    HAHAHA! LOOK AT YOU CHURCH IVAN! YOUR HISTORY STARTED ONLY IN 1914 IN THE PHILIPPINES AND NOT IN JERUSALEM, ITS ONLY 98 YEARS OLD, ALMOST TWO THOUSAND YEARS DISCONNECTED FROM THE APOSTLES. AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO CALL YOURSELVES THE TRUE CHURCH?

    ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CAN TRACE ITS ORIGIN BACK TO APOSTLES. PLENTY OF HISTORICAL EVIDENCE AFFIRMED THAT FACT! BENEDICT XVI IS THE 266TH POPE SINCE ST.PETER. ONLY HISTORICAL IGNORAMUSES LIKE YOU WOULD DARE TO DENY THAT FACT!

  341. MANNY CRUZ says:

    IVAN:

    “The Bible teaches that the FATHER is the ONE TRUE GOD. (Isaiah 45:5, 1 Chronicles 29:10, Malachi 2:10, John 17:1-3, John 20:17, Mark 12:28-34, Eph. 4:6)”

    MANNY SAID:

    YOUR CLAIM OF THE FATHER AS THE ONE TRUE GOD IS NO DIFFERENT FROM THE CLAIM OF THE JEWS IN THE GOSPEL OF JOHN.

    JOHN 8:41, “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

    SO THE JEWS SPEAK LIKE YOU IVAN! BUT,

    “42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.”(JOHN 8:42-43)

    THE JEWS WERE UNABLE TO HEAR OR UNDERSTAND JESUS’ CLAIM OF DIVINITY. HE TOLD THEM THAT HE IS GOD, BUT THEY WOULD HAVE NOTHING OF IT. (JOHN 5:17-19; 8:58; 10:30-33). “YOU, A MERE MAN… AND NOT GOD,!!!” THEY BOTH EXCLAIMED (Cf. JOHN 10:33).

    THE JEWS AND THE INC’S REJECTION OF JESUS’ DIVINITY SEALED THEIR FATE AS BEING SONS OF THE DEVIL.

    ” 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him”

    SO, THERE IS NO TRUTH IN THE INC.

  342. MANNY CRUZ says: